[Woodworkers] The Oak archives
Steve Bigelow
sbig333 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 19 19:15:27 PDT 2024
I was going through some old computer archives and came across some old
emails. I've attached one of my archives of the old "The Oak" mailing list.
I figured some of you might find it interesting.
I've got another if there is more interest. It's just a text file...
Regards,
-Steve
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From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 6:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: "Your New House" Shocker
I suffered through a how do I do it once where the host suggested you
put a hardwood floor down prior to the drywall so you can use the
floor nailer all the way up to the edge. It was worth it to see the
hired installer look at the guy and mumble out a "yeah I guess you
could" and then shoots the host a look like "you idjit".
Keith Bohn
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 9:03 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: "Your New House" Shocker
At 02:07 AM 1/12/99 +0000, Duke of URLs wrote:
>I suffered through a how do I do it once where the host suggested you
>put a hardwood floor down prior to the drywall so you can use the
>floor nailer all the way up to the edge. It was worth it to see the
>hired installer look at the guy and mumble out a "yeah I guess you
>could" and then shoots the host a look like "you idjit".
snicker...hehehaha...gufaw...BWWWAAAAhahahahaha.
This reminds of the time I was building this house when the "construction
foreman" read homeowner, suggested that I should align the wooden "I" beams
so that the pre-punched holes in each beam would line up with each other.
I just stood there, with my jaw agape, trying to figure out how to explain
to this "idjit" that since these things are ran continuously out of a
machine and the holes are punched in relation to the run that none of them
would ever line up without wasting quite a few thousand feet of material.
Ah, the memories of building that house are many...it's rare to experience
a job so interesting where it brings such humor to one's daily life...
Joe
The greatest contribution to mankind is when someone walks among others and
doesn't mind if anyone cares who he is.
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Ron Winger [rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 10:03 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: "Your New House" Shocker
_Merck Index_ lists linseed oil (the book does not differentiate "boiled").
The therapeutic category for human medicine is emollient, for veterinary
medicine a laxative. No dose is given for either. I think most
importantly, there is no LD-50 listed. No LD-50 is not an indicator that
linseed oil may be ingested without ramifications; but, if it were highly
toxic, there would definitely be an LD-50.
I just looked at my gallon of boiled linseed oil, which states plainly on
the can "inedible". The can does not list ingredients. The ingredients of
raw linseed oil would not be toxic; I honestly can't remember what makes
linseed oil "boiled".
BUT---and this is important---if one has added any petroleum distillate to
the product, either in a home shop or manufacturing setting, we have a
whole new ball game, as regards toxicity of the uncured product. READ:
petroleum distillates are bad for you.
my toxicology reference, _Handbook of Poisoning_ ninth ed. lists the toxic
dose of emollients/demulcents (and the index points to these for linseed
oil) as "in excess of 2 gm/kg" body weight. For those who are not
metrically inclined, this calculates roughly to about one ounce /30 pounds.
As Don Weisman has pointed out, a cured finish would not be toxic. I don't
think there would be sufficient linseed oil, boiled or otherwise, on a
cutting board treated with the substance in question and properly cured, to
be of concern. However, it would not be my first choice. For those
interested, I use LIGHT mineral oil on food handling utensils.
STANDARD DISCLAIMER--I am not advocating linseed oil is harmless, and
especially not boiled linseed oil.
The cured product in either case should be safe enough to use, but I would
not recommend it.
Oh yeah, for anyone wondering what LD-50 means: it is a term used in the
medical/pharmaceutical industry to indicate the amount of something that
kills 50% (half) of a test group of animals. No flames please, I don't
make the rules, nor do I work in the manufacture of such things. But that
is what the term means.
Regards,
Ron Winger
Pharmacist
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 3:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: ...and a good time was had by all
Last weekend I had to drive up to Victor, Montana to visit
my granddaughter and her father. The reason for the trip
was to pick up a puppy for the granddaughter that lives with
us. We now have a twelve week old yellow Lab. Bubba, my
Rhodesian Ridgeback is not too happy about that.
But, "What has this to do with woodworking." you are all
wondering, about now. Hang on, I'll get to that in a
minute. For those of you who are interested, get out the
Rand-McNally and follow along. (Those of you who do not
live on the North American Continent, please bear with me.)
Friday was ten hours of white knuckle driving on packed snow
and ice, with more snow falling all day. (My four year old
granddaughter was with me and wanted to know if we could
stop at the North Pole and see Santa Claus.) I took US 93
from Twin Falls, Idaho to Shoshone, and then took Idaho 75
(the scenic route) through Hailey and Ketchum, then over the
Galena Summit. I was fortunate to fall in behind a snow
plow for most of the way over the summit. Then came Stanley
and the Salmon River Valley with its many curves and twists.
At Challis I was once again on US 93. From Challis to
Salmon the snow fall intensified enough to stop and put on
the chains. The drive over the Lost Trail Pass was really
grim and tense. However, I made it to Victor safely. God
Bless my eleven year old GMC 4X4 pick-up truck with 230
thousand miles on it.
We had planned to come back the next day. I said "No Dice,
I need a day's rest." I called SWMBO to tell her that we
were staying over an extra night and not to expect us until
Sunday night. She gave me a shopping list of Christmas
presents to look for in Missoula on Saturday. Victor is
only 35 miles from Missoula so I though it would be OK to go
shopping for the things she could not find at home. (Side
Note: If anyone can find Furbies, the latest doll rage, I
need four of them.)
Saturday morning I woke up to a beautiful sunny day. The
drive to Missoula was uneventful, but the shopping was a
total bust. (See the Side Note in the previous paragraph.)
It was still early so I decided to drive up to a place I had
heard about called Ronan, Montana, and sneak up on some guy
named Joe Johns. In my Rand-McNally Ronan looks like maybe
a two-saloon town. How hard could it be to find Joe Johns
in a small town like that?
There goes that day of rest I was talking about.
I arrived in Ronan at about 1 o'clock. I spotted a street
sign that said Main Street and turned right. Nothing there
but a dead end. I made a U-Turn and crossed US 93 and the
first saloon on the right is called the Club Bar. I ordered
a beer, asked for the phone book, and found Joe listed. I
called the number...no answer. I asked around if anyone
knew Joe Johns, or where Carlyle lane is. No one ever heard
of him or the address. I had another beer and called
again.....no answer. I got back in the truck and found
another saloon. This one was called the Second Chance. I
called again....no answer. I asked around if anyone knew
Joe Johns or Carlyle Lane. No luck. I had a second beer
there and called again....no answer. One of the patrons hit
a jackpot on one of the slot machines and bought a round for
the bar. Everyone was getting very friendly and helpful.
Someone told me to try over at the saloon next door. This
place is called Dick's Pheasant Lounge. I found the place I
was looking for. It seems that everyone there knew Joe. I
even got to see some of his woodwork there. Pretty good
stuff.
Well, the truth of the matter is this, he doesn't live in
Ronan. He lives in Pablo which is 5 or 6 miles North of
Ronan, and even smaller than Ronan. Someone told me to go
to Pablo and check in at the saloon called Cheers. The
bartender at Cheers gave me the phone number of Joe's girl
friend, which is where Joe lives. The number I was calling
is his shop. I called.
The lady who answered the phone was as gracious a person as
I had ever met. She said Joe would be back in a few
minutes, but come on over. She gave me the directions. I
got lost and called again. She was kind enough to give me
more explicit directions this time and I found the place.
By this time Joe had come home.
He met me at the door and it was like meeting a brother I
had not seem for a few years. We tipped a few beers. Joe
and Laurie insisted that I stay the night. A party was
previously planned and a bunch of Joe's Fire Fighter friends
were coming over. (How many of you out there knew that Joe
is a Fire Fighter?) I called my Son-in-Law in Victor and
told them I would not be home that night, I was much too
light headed to drive that far. After a few more beers Joe
took me to see the shop.
Now the truth can be told. The pictures on his web sight do
not look anything like the shop in real life. It is much
larger, for one thing, and much better lighted. It is one
of the nicest woodworking shops I have ever been in. As we
all suspected, he did clean it up for the pictures. The
evening I was there, the saw dust and shavings were on the
floor, the machines, and the benches where one would expect
them to be.
Back at the house, the party was getting started when we
arrived. The rest is kind of dream like so I will not go
into details. Suffice to say that a good time was had by
all. I do remember that I had a cold can of beer in my hand
that never seemed to go empty. I wonder where Joe gets
them. I awoke the next morning while it was still dark, and
slipped out without waking anyone up. It was too early for
that. I left a note thanking them for their hospitality and
went on my way. It was an absolutely wonderful evening with
absolutely wonderful hosts. Thank You, Joe and Laurie.
Don't forget, I want a wedding invitation.
The rest of the trip turned into a total disaster. I picked
up my granddaughter and her new puppy and started home. At
noon we stopped in Dillon, Montana for lunch. (I had
decided that I would not take the mountain passes on US 93
for the trip home. So I took the longer route on the
Interstate Highway system, I-90 East from Missoula to I-15,
then south through Idaho Falls.) After lunch we got back in
the truck, started the engine, and promptly threw a rod
before we got out of the parking lot. No mechanics work on
Sunday in Dillon. I limped the truck over to a motel, got a
room, called SWMBO with the bad news. Monday morning I
limped the truck over to the Chevy dealer and put it in the
shop, rented a car and finally got home. They said it
should be ready next Monday with a rebuilt engine in place.
That puppy will probably cost me about $3,000 US.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: ...and a good time was had by all
I purposely waited until Moose had returned home and posted _his_ account
of our meeting in order for me to lay witness to his abilities of story
telling. All I can say is...well, carry on because you'll read all about it.
Like most Saturdays here of late, my day started at 0600 when SWMBO
scheduled me to perform some free carpentry to a family member. At 2:30 I
found myself back at the shop with the tools stowed away and reluctantly
headed home to become enslaved in decorating the joint for Christmas. But,
before I could any of that I had to make a run to the store for consumables
because we were having guests over that evening for a Christmas party.
Arriving home, consumables stowed, I stole a few moments to sit down and
pretended deafness. It didn't work because SWMBO saw through my ploy and
nag...er, encouraged me to get moving because "we only have an hour before
folks start arriving!"
"Cheese Whiz," I said, "How long does it take to decorate the house, throw
out a couple bowls of munchies, change hats and..." My revolt was
interrupted, "...and take a shower too!"
I countered, "now you're meddling, woman!" Ya know, there's something to
be said about conniption fits that makes it easy for men to toddle off to
the shower on an, up-until-recently perfectly good Saturday afternoon - I
should elaborate on that but first I have to figure out how to scrape the
cats off the ceiling.
Emerging from the turbo-wash I hear SWBFA (she who bellows from afar) blurt
out, "and put on a decent shirt, you don't have to look like a hobo all the
time." What I want to know is, what's wrong with hobo? Then the phone
rings and I hear SWKZACDE (she who knows zip about casual dress etiquette)
quietly talking to someone. From where I stood it certainly looked like
espionage and foul play was at hand. "What is that wench up now?" I
muttered to myself. Then, almost immediately, the phone rings again and
Mata Hari thunders, "Don't answer it, it's for me!" Hummm, up until that
moment, I was totally unaware that clairvoyance was part of being a
Psychologist. Another quiet conversation being over, SWNTBC (she who needs
to be coddled) announces that she would like a beer. I head to the fridge
and noticed that a guest was pulling in. "Someone's here," I said, "Man,
are they early...so it can't be anyone from our circle of friends, none of
that bunch is ever early!" SWLWB (she who laughs with beer) said, "Who is
it?"
"I don't have a clue," I said, "I've never seen the man in my life." He
comes to the door, I open it, he walks in, he shakes my hand and says, "Hi,
I'm Moose!" I look to Lauri and see that she's smiling so I think that
this person is a friend of hers. I look back to him. "Moose" looks at me
and says, "and you must be the world famous Joe Johns!" Well, that
confirmed my suspicions of his being a friend of Lauri's so I look back to
her while thinking that this man must be a Psychologist too because who
else would know that I am world fam....then it hit me - "MOOSE!" So it
WAS foul play and these two were in cahoots!
I laughed - cuz that's what world famous men do when they've been caught
with their aprons hiked up over their head - and invited him in. I then
inquired about his position on refreshing adult beverages...suffice it to
say that I didn't have to twist his arm for him to take a beer as we sat
down and he began to recount his experience in tracking me down.
Moose reached the point where he'd already visited two saloons before
finally entering the one where everybody knew me, however in his account he
says:
>...In my Rand-McNally Ronan looks like maybe a two-saloon town.
>How hard could it be to find Joe Johns in a small town like that?
>...crossed US 93 and the
>first saloon on the right is called the Club Bar. I ordered
>a beer, asked for the phone book, and found Joe listed. I
>called the number...no answer. I asked around if anyone
>knew Joe Johns, or where Carlyle lane is. No one ever heard
>of him or the address.
That's because 99% of the people who frequent that bar couldn't tell you
where THEY were to say nothing of where to find anyone else!
>...I got back in the truck and found
>another saloon.
Found? It was only a stone throw away, silly.
>This one was called the Second Chance. I
>called again....no answer. I asked around if anyone knew
>Joe Johns or Carlyle Lane. No luck.
That's because 99% of the people who frequent THAT bar migrate there from
the one he'd just been in. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he was asking
the same people the same question.
>...Someone told me to try over at the saloon next door. This
>place is called Dick's Pheasant Lounge. I found the place I
>was looking for. It seems that everyone there knew Joe. I
>even got to see some of his woodwork there. Pretty good
>stuff.
What Moose didn't tell you was that while at Dick's, he'd encountered the
local contingent of the VFW and with Moose being a retired Marine, it was
simply impossible for him to get away from a group of veterans with just a
single round.
>Well, the truth of the matter is this, he doesn't live in
>Ronan. He lives in Pablo which is 5 or 6 miles North of
>Ronan, and even smaller than Ronan. Someone told me to go
>to Pablo and check in at the saloon called Cheers.
Folks, are you seeing a pattern here? Moose comes up, visits every damn
saloon on the auspices of trying to find me, everyone at Dick's tells him
they know me, know where I live and even know my phone number but instead
of revealing that information, <rolling my eyes> they tell him to "check in
at the saloon called Cheers."
>The bartender at Cheers gave me the phone number of Joe's girl
>friend, which is where Joe lives.
>The lady who answered the phone was as gracious a person as
>I had ever met. She said Joe would be back in a few
>minutes, but come on over. She gave me the directions. I
>got lost and called again.
After visiting 4 saloons you couldn't hit your butt with a handful of elk
antlers so getting "lost" is understandable I suppose <BOSEG>
>She was kind enough to give me
>more explicit directions this time and I found the place.
Yeah, how explicit are the directions...."look across the street, see that
brown house? Go there!"
>He met me at the door...
>I called my Son-in-Law in Victor and
>told them I would not be home that night, I was much too
>light headed to drive that far.
Ohh, I can't wait to use that one in the future..."No, officly honester,
I'm just too light-headed to drive very far."
>Now the truth can be told. The pictures on his web sight do
>not look anything like the shop in real life. It is much
>larger, for one thing, and much better lighted. It is one
>of the nicest woodworking shops I have ever been in. As we
>all suspected, he did clean it up for the pictures. The
>evening I was there, the saw dust and shavings were on the
>floor, the machines, and the benches where one would expect
>them to be.
Big-mouth squealer! Actually Moose walked in, took a deep breath and said
he felt quite at home. I gave him the 25 cent tour and attempted to
explain away the reason for it being so messy - there were four on-going
projects - but he didn't believe a word of it.
>Suffice to say that a good time was had by
>all.
I can vouch for this. He got to meet a lot of our friends and considering
that motley crew, he fared pretty well. We laughed and told stories
(almost all of them true) when Moose told me it was time for him to go to
bed. Early the next morning he had quietly left so as not to wake us up
and I was sorry that I was not able to see him off. We had a great time
and I wished that he could've stayed a little longer the next morning but
the drive back home was a long one.
>...Thank You, Joe and Laurie.
>Don't forget, I want a wedding invitation.
And you shall get one, my friend. I'm looking forward to it.
Anyone that gets a chance to meet Moose, I advise that you do so. We had a
wonderful evening and the pleasure was almost all mine in our finally being
able to do so. Moose admitted that he was very sorry for not being able to
meet Smitty too, but Smitty was out of town that weekend.
I only wish that I could have met Betty, but there's always next time.
Semper Fi, Moose
Joe
Curiosity killed the cat...alright, for a while there I was a suspect
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:50 PM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: ...and a good time was had by all (as Smitty sees it)
As Smitty said, we finaly got to meet each other. He wouldn't admit how
many times he got lost as he drove up here. But I would suspect he was like
Moose and stopped at every watering hole around. I thought he was goofy
when he asked about where our mountains were. But I knew he was when he
kept talking about a big lake in Montanna. It finaly accured to me that it
was a farmer's watering hole. As any one in the Great Lakes area knows that
it isn't really a lake unless you can float a 600 ft ship in it. :-)
Being the intellegent fool I am, I hid all my parts for the ceiling filter
before Smitty arived. Thanks for the warning Joe <G>. I picked Smitty up
at the hotal and we went to a watering hole to get a bite to eat. I found
out that Smitty does not like fish. So if you ever need to have him leave
early, you now know what to serve for dinner :-). My poor wife had to sit
there and hear us talk and talk. Final we went to our home (shop) looking
at Christmas light all the way. He did seem to show intrest in my router
table. I learned to carry a rag with me to wipe up all the slobbering he
did on it <G>.
It didn't take him long to learn were the frig (beer) was. We killed a good
many of them. Kept on talking until it was way pass my bed time. Played
with some toys and talked some more. All in all it was an EXCELLENT
evening. You are welcome back any time Smitty. Some day I may be able to
take you up on your invite.
Big al in the irc
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 2:53 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: [Fwd: [computermusic] Re: Unsubsribe Me from this list]
Despite the bandwidth it requires, I thought that this
very precise, accurate and friendly set of instructions was
worth it. I found it in my mailbox from another newsgroup I
subscribe to. Some things just ask to be shared....From: bill locke [blocke at tmisnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 8:02 AM
To: oak
Subject: [Fwd: Book: _Old Ways of Working Wood_]
I just came across a "web find" that every book buyer here could benefit
from ...
The site http://www.acses.com is a search engine that finds the cheapest
price for a book on the web! I just typed in "Old Ways of Working with Wood"
and it came back with a list of on-line booksellers, total cost (including
specified transportation mode), and % discount. Using this site, I just
purchased this book for $6.75 from http://www.A1Books.com ($10.70 total
cost) coming by UPS ground (4 days).From: Paul Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 3:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: [Fwd: Cutting Plexiglass]
Hi Dave,
You might try the below listed site for all your buffing needs:
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing.htm
http://www.caswellplating.com/nsindex.htm
--
Paul W. Abelquist
78 Rosewood Road
Rocky Point, NY 11778
Tel.: 516. 821. 5574
Fax: 516. 821. 3392
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.netFrom: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 5:02 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: [Fwd: Portable bandmills]
Sorry,
I thought I had sent this to the listserv, but found out I clicked when, I
should have clacked. Some of it is old news by now, but just in case someone
else is interested here it is.
Thanks,
Chuck
"C.E.(Chuck)Ring" wrote:
>
> RANDY BODIN wrote:
> >
> > Portable bandmills which one is the best on the market?
> > Also i`m thinking of starting my own bandmill lumberyard, any
> > suggestions or comments welcomed, my location is central minnesota is
> > this a wise choice?
> > And how could i find out if there are any bandmills already in my area,
> > and how much do they charge for milling a log.
>
> Randy,
>
> Here's an article which might inspire you or least give you some information
> which is useful:
>
> http://www.goodwood.org/goodwood/understory/new/chapman.html
>
> Here's a link to Wood-Mizer:
>
> http://www.woodmizer.com/ A lot of information on their products, including
> used mills and the "Trees to Furniture" program.
>
> Here's a link to Bailey's:
>
> http://www.bbaileys.com
>
> They have books, videos and mills and "Wild Ass" (tm) tousers.
>
> I am clueless as far as practical and actual knowledge on your questions are
> concerned.
> Good luck,
> Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 6:55 AM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Epoxy?]
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Saul Harris [saulharris at netscape.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:25 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: [Shims: 0.005
Bob:
I have bought pieces of brass sheet from the hobby store before.
They had it in the area where the train sets were (clueless as
to why there). It was in varying thicknesses but I can't remember
how long it was (I can't remember what I had for breakfast either).
It seems like it was shorter than 26", though.
Bob Chapman wrote:
I am either tuning-up (to put it nicely), or finishing the
manufacturing of (to put it less nicely), a sanding machine
that i bought recently. In order to get it exactly right,
I need some 0.005" and 0.010" shim material: brass, steel
or aluminum would all be equally good. Does anyone know
of sources for such stuff. Need 3/4" wide in 26" lengths:
obviously, I'll be willing to cut it to shape, but these
are the basic sizes I will need to end up with.
TIA
Bob Chapman
____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail
From: Steve W [vistin at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:14 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: 16 Forsner bits.
Steve wrote:
OK! Who has the best bargin in a set of "Forsner Bits".
Steve
From: David Cohen [imageinc1 at mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:14 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 16 Forsner bits.
Hi Steve,
>From a recent thread I can tell that there is NO bargain, just quality you
need to look for. Many of the cheap imports are not sharpened correctly
and do not hold an edge for long. I believe the Freud bits were liked.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:01 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 16 Forsner bits.
Steve W wrote:
>
> OK! Who has the best bargin in a set of "Forsner Bits".
>
The Chinese set I got from Harbor Freight a few years ago was little
more than a kit to make your own bits. All required a fair amount of
work with diamond hones to make them serviceable, but that done, they
are cutting nicely and holding up well. A few months ago I looked at a
set that Woodworker's Warehouse had on a half price sale for $40. They
looked amazingly good for the price, and far superior to the ones I
bought. Check them out if you have a Woodworker's Warehouse store near
you. Regards,
Gerald
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:38 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: 16 Forsner bits.
I have looked at a number of Forstner bits at various shows. The ones that
they put on the drillpress to demonstrate how well they worked have been
sharpened properly since they were manufactured. The ones in the boxes for
sale were basically not sharpened at all. Be real careful: I think that
you've got to look at the specific set that you're buying. I wouldn't buy
through mail order. Same comments for brad point drill bits.
Bob
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:37 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: 16 Forsner bits.
I got so tired of trying to find a good set of bits, that I finally just
gave in and have purchased, as I have needed them, carbide tipped bits.
Even though they are expensive, in the long run I have found them very
worthwhile. I think I got most of them mail order through Woodworker's
Supply, but I have noticed that Rockler's is carrying some now also.
Wendy
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 3:52 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Wendy Wilson
Subject: Re: 16 Forsner bits.
I have to agree with Wendy, not so much about what type i.e. carbide
vs HSS etc. although I always tend to over buy. But that buying A
SET of anything e.g. forsner, router, brad point bits never seems to
work for me. I seem to use only about 20% of the set 80% of the time,
the rest are a waste or only get used when the size I really need is
blunt, broke or just lost. I now buy em as I need em. This way you
can afford to buy the high end.
My 2 cents Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:39 PM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; Wendy Wilson
Subject: Re: 16 Forsner bits.
I agree with you Andy, especially when it comes to high end items such
as quality Forstner bits, buy what is needed. I've got about 8-10
including multi-spur bits, and one time or another have used every one.
Although incidently, non are Carbide. I use them too little to have
reason to purchase them in Carbide. HSS (which is sharper anyhow) is all
I need.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 4:59 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 16 Forsner bits.
Steve W Wrote:
>OK! Who has the best bargin in a set of "Forsner Bits".
Harbor Freight tools. They are made in China and need to be sharpened.
Once sharpened, they perform and endure just like those costing 4x more.
So it depends on whether you have more time or money.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - The firewood is cut and split but not
stacked.
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 1:42 PM
To: kayak at one.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 220V Magnetic Switches
On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:59:28 -0500, you wrote:
>Can anyone explain to me (or better yet show me a schematic) of how a
>magnetic switch for a 220V device works? I put a 3HP 220V motor on my
>table saw, and would really like to add a magnetic switch
Zane, I just moved the starter on my unisaw which involved replacing the cables
with longer ones...... Everything inside the switch was marked very clearly and
it really was a no brainer 2 screws marked input, 2 screws marked output and one
screw marked neutral.... Can't go wrong..... I believe it's a Furnas (SP?)
switch........
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal desease......
From: Martin A. Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 2:42 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: kayak at one.net
Subject: Re: 220V Magnetic Switches
On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Brian Molinari wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:59:28 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Can anyone explain to me (or better yet show me a schematic) of how a
> >magnetic switch for a 220V device works? I put a 3HP 220V motor on my
> >table saw, and would really like to add a magnetic switch
Basically, when you push the start button (normally open contact),
it energizes the coil on a
relay, either 2 pole or 3 pole depending on whether or not its a single
phase or 3 phase relay. The start button is momentary, meaning it only
opens or closes a circuit as long as it is depressed, as is the stop
button. When the coil is energized, the load side of the relay feeds not
only the machine but also feeds back through the stop button, (normally
closed contact) back to the coil of the relay. When you push the stop
button, you open the circuit to the coil and it de-energizes the relay and
shuts the machine down. Likewise, when there is a power failure the coil
will de-energize, and when power is restored, the machine will not
power up until the start button is pushed again. This is one of the
beneficial safety features of the magnetic switch. Another is more for
larger heavier loads, loads that a switch like you are currently using
would burn up. If you have a large motor load, the contacts in the
switch/relay must be rated for the load to be controlled or they will arc
and burn.
Your 3hp 220v motor probably draws near 18amps, so technically you could
get by with a heavy commercial grade 2 pole switch for awhile. Personally
anything 3hp and over, I would put a mag switch on.
www.grizzlyimports.com sells several Taiwaneese units rated for the HP
loads that they will control. I have had pretty good luck with them and
they are pretty reasonably priced as well.
Clear as mud right?
Standard disclaimer, if you have ANY DOUBT about your ability to work on
electrical components and wiring, consult a licensed electrician. Don't
take a chance on your tools, machines, shop, fires and even more
importantly yourself or others. Just like cheaply made tools and machines,
don't skimp in this area and try and save a buck.
Marty
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 10:23 AM
To: kayak at one.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 220V Magnetic Switches
Zane Harris sends:
>Can anyone explain to me (or better yet show me a schematic) of how a
>magnetic switch for a 220V device works? I put a 3HP 220V motor on my
>table saw, and would really like to add a magnetic switch (right now I'm
>just using a 220V toggle light switch; it works, but it is awkward to
>get at while trying to handle a full sheet of 3/4).
>
>Zane Harris
Zane, are you trying to turn the saw on with your hands full or trying to
keep the saw from starting unexpectedly if the power goes out?
A magnetic switch is a safety device. In it is a momentary-contact
switch and an electromagnet. When you push the activation button,
it turns on the electromagnet, which pulls a big piece of metal down to
make the circuit for the saw motor (in this case--these can go on any
tool). Pushing the off button (which is a normally-closed switch mounted
between the wall and the on button assembly) causes the electromagnet
to stop working, and the big piece of metal to break the circuit.
Needless to say, interruption of power to the saw will also cause the
electromagnet to stop working, giving the same effect as pushing the
off button.
Your saw's power switch is down below the surface of the table, right?
What would also work is to build an arm over your saw and put the
switch on the arm, or put the saw near a support pole in your shop
and mount the switch on the pole. I've seen both ways done, and
they do work.
--jmowreader
"ROM stands for Read-Only Memory. That's the place in a
computer that doesn't go away when you shut off the power.
It's also the place where computer companies put their
worst idiosyncracies."
--Guy Kawasaki, The Macintosh Way
From: lunden at home.com
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:40 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: 2nd Man Charged in Nail-Gun Slaying
>From the Hartford Courant - Jan 7th, 1999
"NEW BRITAIN - A second man has been charged in the killing of
contractor John Leitao, who died Sept. 9 after being shot repeatedly in
the head with a pneumatic nail gun.
George Kowalczyk, 33, a city resident, remained silent Wednesday during
his arraignment in Superior Court on murder and conspiracy charges. He
is accused of helping Richard Tinto, Leitao's brother-in-law and
business partner, kill Leitao at a job site on Indian Hill Road.
Leitao, who with Tinto owned financially troubled Connecticut Valley
Contractors died of head wounds inside 71 Indian Hill road, a house that
the two had bought last year for $55,000 to remodel and sell for profit.
Police found eight 2-inch nails fired into Leitao's brain from a
pneumatic nail gun, apparently modified so it would shoot nails quicker.
Police determined that the death was not an accident and last week
charged Tinto, 36, of Newington, with murder. Tinto has entered a plea
of not guilty and his attorney, T.R. Paulding said "no way" is tinto
guilty of murder."
I felt that this story was mandatory reading for all woodworkers.
Several questions come to mind:
1) What type of compressor is best for this type of work - oil or oil
free?
2) Do the modifications to the nail gun void the warrantee?
3) What brand of nail gun works best for this application?
TIA
Jim Lunden
Avon, CT
P. S. If there is sufficient, I will keep the list informed as to the
progress of this case.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: 3 1/4" Portable Planer
History: a year or so ago, I bought a Sears 10" benchtop tablesaw. Hated
it. Sold it to a friend. He was a newbie to tablesaws. Good "value" for
him though.
Yesterday: I asked to borrow the saw for a job I gotta do Saturday morning.
He brought it to me. Turned it on last night. Remembered why I sold it.
Yuk.
Today: I took it back to Sears. Told them it was a piece of junk. I wrote
by friend a check, buying it back. Sears credited my account. (This is
what I love about Sears and why I still shop there: I had no receipt and
they could find no record of my purchase. They took 10% off for usage. I
considered that very fair. The saw didn't even have 30 minutes on it.)
Anyway, I had $156 credit. So, I mosey around the tool dept. I found 3
portable planers. A Craftsman, a Makita and a Dewalt. All the 3 1/4"
variety. Decided on the Dewalt.
Anybody got one of these? Should I have opted for the Makita? (I can still
change it, as the Dewalt won't be in 'til next week).
Thanks, Todd Burch.
(Feeling good for doing my civic duty: returning the junk saw.)
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 2:01 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: 4d Nails
Hi all
Can anyone tell me the length of 4d nails please. Come to that, how long
are 2d, 3d and 5d nails, and what kind of heads do they have. Are they like
our panel pins in the UK?
Ray
From: the tautological Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: 4d Nails
>Can anyone tell me the length of 4d nails please. Come to that, how long
>are 2d, 3d and 5d nails, and what kind of heads do they have. Are they like
>our panel pins in the UK?
>Ray
Here's a link to a chart on nail sizes and number per pound (pound
meaning weight here in the U.S.). :-)
http://www.sears.com/craftsman/shoptalk/refer.htm
As long as we're at it this URL is to a chart for screw sizes and
recommended pilot holes.
http://lafayette.indy.net/~belex/scruchrt.html
Oh yeah, you should know what speed to run your drill, right?
http://www.woodmagazine.com/compstor/dpsc.html
Keith Bohn
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:55 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: 4d Nails
----------snip> From: Jim & Deb Warman <mechanic at agt.net>
> what the h*ll is a panel pin?> ........................
> snip
This might help
http://www.netsource-asia.com/hk/wangdifu/nail.htm
When I lived in Limeyland a panel pin described a nail maybe up to 1
1/4" very light gauge, hence pin with a head like a finishing nail.
You would use them to secure thin masonite or hardboard, or when
SWMBO got tired of asking you to hang the mother-in-laws picture over
the bed she would use a panel pin to hang said picture, because panel
pins could be driven into plaster easily. About a week later it would
fall off the wall clout you on the bonce and then the work would be
done properly.
My 2d worth Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can. and happy despite the GST,
PST, gas, personal, gas gusler, A/C, luxury taxes etc.etc.
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:06 PM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: 4d Nails
At 16:20 18/09/98 -0600, Jim & Deb Warman wrote:
>Ray,
>
>As far as I can figure, the terms for nails being measured in pence
>originated in the UK. I can see there is a real conumdrum forming here and I
>don't want to add to the stuff that might follow........................BUT,
>what the h*ll is a panel pin?
I expect that it did, but that would have been old pence - twelve to the
shilling, not like our new metric pence... Here we think in inches and have
to measure in centimetres, and you think you have problems. A panel pin is
like a small thin nail with a tiny head that people use for pinning while
glue sets, for example.
>BTW, it's obvious to us displaced treasures that the only good thing coming
>out of your town is the road to Bradford!!!!
>Jim W.
>mechanic at agt.net
>living in Canada under duress and GST
We don't have a town here, it is pretty remote - no duress just Loch Ness.
Now that we are getting all the US woodwork shows as well as Bob Vila and a
man called Rene from Canada, we have to try to translate everything into
English English, and since we're pretty mixed up here, that isn't always
easy. We have different voltages and frequencies on our mains electricity
so we can't use N American power tools, which is a pity since they are less
than half the price they are here and I get so tempted when I go to see
either of my sons - one in Toronto and one in Cleveland Ohio - that I must
get a converter one day, but how does one get a table saw into a suitcase
under 40 kilos? The only thing we share transatlantically, it seems, is the
gallon, but even then the gallons are different sizes, your is 4 litres and
ours is nearly 5 litres.
The worst problem is having to translate everything into metric so we can
find it in a shop (store). A two inch by eight screw is 50mm by 4.2mm.
Timber, fastenings, everything is sold in metric and nobody above the age
of 40 can made head nor tail of it. Its actually illegal under European law
to sell things that are not measured in metric.
Plus being the highest taxed, most ripped off and least cared for country
in the world, I don't know why we stay. Perhaps its the music of the burn
as it trickles through the garden and the view of the timeless mountains
beyond the loch.... or maybe its the midges. Its late....
Thanks for all the help
Contemplating the sawdust in my navel.........
RayFrom: Jim Lunden [jlunden at sma-promail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:03 AM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: A boring job
Since this post involves drilling many holes, I could not resist using
the title line. I am building a wall (21 feet long with two windows) of
bookshelves. These are being constructed from 3/4" oak plywood with
solid oak faceframes.
There are going to be five six foot tall units about 36" wide and 10"
deep. I am dadoing the top, bottom and one middle piece into each unit.
There will be adjustable shelves which will be supported by the little
brass spoon things which fit into 1/4" holes.
There are about 50 holes per row, two rows per side, two sides per case
for five cases. My arithmetic indicates about 1000 holes.
In the past, I've created a template of 1/4" Masonite and used my hand
held drill with a 1/4" brad point drill bit with a collar for this type
of job. With 1000 holes to drill, I became worried about accuracy and
template degradation with repeated use.
I borrowed an idea from the recent Eagle America catalog. I created a
template of 1/2" Baltic birch plywood with 21/64th inch holes. I set up
my Porter-Cable 693 plunge router with a 1/4" spiral upcut bit and a
5/16th outer diameter brass template ring. I moved the router from hole
to hole and plunged away. It was boring at its most boring, but the job
went pretty quickly and the templates were as good as new when I
finished.
Jim Lunden
Avon, CT
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:06 AM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A boring job
Keith and Jim,
I have seen these templates in catalogs for years and always
wondered.Why not make a template for a Vix bit and use a drill with
it?That way you are using the tool that was made to drill holes instead
of putting all that wear on the plunge router.I can also guarantee it is
faster since this is the method I use daily.The Vix bits do not come in
alot of sizes but I do have 1/4" to match shelf pins.I personally use a
small air drill which is very fast and alot easier to handle than a
router.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Byron w Clinkingbeard [byronclink at juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:00 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A boring job
Big question.........Do you have problems with the vix bit clogging up
and wanting the whole assembly to turn, or do I just have a bad bit? I
finally decided that the fastest thing to do was to locate each hole with
the template and vix bit by drilling just about 1/8"deep, then going back
with a 1/4" bit with a stop collar to get the right depth of hole. I had
to stop after every hole and clean out the bit when I tried to use the
vix bit to drill the hole the full depth. I never had to stop and clean
out the bit when I just used it to locate the holes. Is this normal, or
do I have a strange vix bit?
Byron Clinkingbeard
ByronClink at juno.com
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:07 AM
To: Byron w Clinkingbeard
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A boring job
Byron,
I do not have a problem with the whole bit spinning but they will
ocassionally clog.I have found out that speed is the key to this.The
faster they run the better.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Preston Keeter [PrestonKeeter at email.msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:45 PM
To: Jim Lunden; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A boring job
I was also working on a bookcase of similiar nature and the same concerns
concerning how to make all of my holes uniform came up. A friend suggested
to use peg board as a template. I used this and was amazed at how well it
did work. If the template became damaged, cut another piece. I also used a
Vix bit.
Preston
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 8:58 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: A boring job
Some time ago I saw His Plaidness use a megadollar jig with a plunge router
to make just these kinds of repetitive holes. T'was indeed a grrreat fancy
aluminium affair with all sorts of adjustments and things to keep the
"techies" amused.
My bet would be to go with a simpler affair......a piece of wood with a
dowel glued towards one end and a hole(s) at the desired interval(s). A
guide bushing in the plunge router and have at 'er. The dowel, etc. could be
position such that the edge of the jig sat flush with the edge of the
workpiece when properly positioned (I would even think to add a fence to it
to be sure).
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 5:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A boring job
No doubt the Vix bit and some perforated hardboard is the way to go
when it conforms to your needs but whadda ya gonna do when it don't?
A down side to the Vix bit in a hand drill is accuracy. May not be an
issue for some projects but it could be for others.
The other down side is the Vix bits max out at, what, 1/4"?
As for all that wear on the plunge router I think it's pretty safe to
assume that a few hundred holes won't kill your machine unless you
bought it at Searz. If you are doing a production line you'd probably
own a small line boring set up.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Keith Bohn
From: Steve Garbini [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 11:05 AM
To: Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: A Day in the Shop
Hi Folks,
This note is connected to woodworking by the smallest of margins and
you might want to be reaching for the delete key about now ......
As a matter of fact, the connection is so small, you're gonna have
to work to find it. Sooo, tighten your "belts" and hang on for the
ride.
It's late Saturday morning and I'm trying to finish a bowl on the
lathe before we head south for the day to visit my sister in law.
SWMBO is packing up some baby clothes for the ride as a new entry
into the clan will be coming soon. As well, were waiting for a new
couch to arrive before we leave. So there I am in my finishing
"costume" - apron, gloves and mask - with fully soaked finishing
cloth in hand when the delivery guys show up. Great. My usual good
timing.
Since I'm beyond the point of no return, Pam (SWMBO) handles squaring
away the dog and wrestling our old screen doors out of the way for
the delivery. By the time I'm done and come up stairs, it's all over
and done with. Couch is in the living room and the fellows are
waving bye - bye. Terrific, back down I go. Need to clean up and
put stuff away before we get going.
Not so lucky.
Pam calls down stairs and says the guys are having a problem with
their truck. "Hell, woman! I'm a woodworker, not a mechanic! It's
not easy creating works of art with all these interruptions."
(Notice how I'm not mentioning the lack of skill thing here as it
relates to creating works of art.) She then proceeds to remind me
about the engineering diploma hanging on the wall and the large van
blocking us in our driveway. I keep forgetting that I am indeed
genetically inferior (a man) and really should just do what SWMBO
tells me to do without any grousing.
O.K., so "What's up fella's?". Old Elijah and friend have the hood
up with that perplexed look we all get on our faces when something
isn't working right. They decided the battery is dead and they need
a jump - especially since they needed a jump before they came to my
house. "Oh? Need a jump at each place you go?" Uhh, yeah. "Hey
guys, that's usually is a sign something else is wrong." Hmm. "Let
me have a look see." (Don't you just hate trying to fix anything
through one of those little truck hoods on a Chevy van?) After the
requisite head scratching and staring, I notice something doesn't
look right. "Hey guys, think that missing belt on the generator has
anything to do with your problem?"
Ever try to find a mechanic on duty at a gas station on a Saturday
afternoon now a days? Yeah, right! These guys are loaded with other
folks furniture and need to get going. They get a really hurt look
on their faces when I tell them wait a minute before starting to call
a wrecker and that their chances of getting someone to actually fix
their truck right now are real slim.
The wheels are turning in my brain and being a master of
improvisation (twenty years of jobsite experience at making something
out of nothing does pay off now and then), an idea is born. I
remember that I saved the belt off of my table saw when I put one of
those link belts on it. Could it be a close enough size? Nah.
..... What the hell, let's go look. Hmmm.
Well, you guessed the end of the story by now. It worked, and being
a pack rat pays off once in a while. The scary part is that old
Elijah and friend now think I'm an ace mechanic - while I'm trying to
tell them go directly to a garage and have someone who knows what
they are doing take a look at it cause this probably won't last.
Somehow, I'm pretty sure they won't stop until they get stuck again.
Sooo, let's save those table saw belts. Never know. Elijah might be
by your place next.
Hope you folks didn't mind the waste of band width. Just wanted to
share this one with you. It would have taken a putty knife to scrap
the smile off my face as I waved at the fella's driving away.
My two belts,
Which are getting someone pretty far in Central Jersey today,
Steve Garbini
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 1:46 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: A Day in the Shop
Steve,
Up here in the GWN we woulda just taken a pair of the wifes panty hose,
twisted 'em up and tied 'em 'round the pulleys. Course, it's always more fun
if SWMBO's wearing them at the time.
BTW, it sounds real bad as that knot goes around but it sure beats walking.
Jim W.
where it's staring to get cold, awready!!
mechanic at agt.net
From: Steve Garbini [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 8:28 PM
To: 'Mike Hatlak'
Cc: Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: A Day in the Shop
Hello Mike,
Glad to hear from you, long time.
While I did resist the urge to put some blade stabilizers on, I did
manage to make a minor adjustment in efficiency.
What the boys didn't know was that the belt from a Delta Contractor's
saw was a little small for their needs. However, summer is beginning
to wane here and the days are starting to cool off a little. I
therefore didn't see any problem with the fact that their compressor
pulley didn't make it into the looping of the belt. I sort of forgot
to mention this to them. Oh well.
My two cents,
Steve Garbini
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 10:26 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking
Subject: RE: A finger joint jig?
Steve,
If you go to The Oak Woodworkers Internet Directory. And do a search for
Finger joints or box joints it will come up with a very good method of
cutting them.
It is a method from Lorne Gushlak of Vancouver. If you have any questions
on the method I am sure Lorne will answer them for you.
You will have to do the search to find the article because it doesn't seem
to be listed and will only come up on a search.
Perhaps Kip knows where he has it tucked away
Steve wrote
>Anyone have plans to a finger joint jig?? I havs one and want some other
>ideas.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 2:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A finger joint jig?
>Anyone have plans to a finger joint jig?? I havs one and want some other
>ideas.
>Steve
There are plans for two jigs at this link.
http://www.commerce.dsmnet.com/cgi-bin/showcat/catalog/Augusthome/Woodsmithshop/Shop%20Jigs/index.html?id=136705
Keith Bohn
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:38 AM
To: ShopSmith Woodworking Users Group List; TheOak
Subject: A finishing question from Mike
Howdy All
As those of you, who have been bored enough to read some of my recent
posting, know that while I am temporarily without workshop space at the
moment I have been trying my hand at woodcarving with an eye to adding
further detail to my work.
While I am not exactly to the woodcarving community I have established a
level of competency in the area of incised and intaglio carving that would
make me feel comfortable in embellishing my work. However, in some
circumstances I would feel I would still like to present pieces with flat
smooth surfaces which means filling the incised carvings.
My wife and I were out for dinner last night at a seafood restraunt. The
tables had hatch cover hinges and manila rope set into the table tops, which
were then filled and covered with, what I assume, was that two part plastic
coating. This strikes me as possibility for what I have in mind. I do not
want that finish for the completed project, just to fill the carvings level
with the surface of the stock.
Now, the questions are; Does that finish shrink so that overfilling and
sanding is necessary (since this is a cure by chemical reaction rather then
oxidation I would imagine not but better to ask now)? If so, or if some
resurfacing is required, does that form of surface coating lend itself to
rubbing out to a perfectly transparent material? And, lastly, Will the
plastic stay in the carvings especially if there is some paint inside (am
also considering adding some color to the carvings) or is a total covering
necessary?
Anyone use the stuff enough to give me a hand?
Mike
Mike G. (AKA MtCowboy)
mjag at tiac.net
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 1999 9:43 PM
To: Arie Visser
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: a little off topic
http://www.infoarchitects.com/prod02.htm
Tool Journal, of the EasyShop series by Information Architects might be
what you are looking for.
Zane Harris
Arie Visser wrote:
> Hi all, I know this is a little bit off topic but I know there are
> some computer guys/galls out there.Because I've so many tools I want
> to put them in a database so I know what I had if some uninvited
> person comes along and takes them with him. I'm looking for a
> shareware/freeware program to record all of my tools. I've heard there
> are some special collection organizers for this purpose but I can't
> seem to find themTIA Arie If you cut off a finger, count till 9 before
> screaming
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 5:23 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
I've been following a few varied threads on this list and on
rec.woodworking about the extreme difficulty of getting some
of our local HD stores to honor their price match guarantee,
which doesn't seem like much of a guarantee at all, at least to
me.
Okay, so how about trying this:
1. You're in the mood for a new router, mainly because the bearings
on your Sears budget special just hit MTBF (mean time before failure)
and did the F part with a vengeance. After cleaning up the little
chunks all over the floor, you decide that a PC693PK sounds like just
what the doctor ordered. Car keys and checkbook in hand, you
head out for a little router-buying trip with maybe a side jaunt to the
bookstore for a cup of whatever turns you on and a peek at the
woodworking books.
2. After hitting the four stores in the area that sell Porter-Cable, you
find that the locally-owned tool dealer (we'll call them Hurst Annaho,
who is the locally-owned tool dealer in Fayetteville even though they
sell Bosch and not Porter-Cable) has it for $189.95 and HD, Lowes and
Sears all have it for $199.95. HD has the 10% price-match guarantee,
right? Off to harass the HD tool-corral people.
3. The tool corral clerk at HD feigns ignorance of the price-match
guarantee. Point it out for him in their latest flyer, a little pile of
which
are laying beside the cash register. "Oh, that. We don't do that."
Ask to speak to the manager.
4. As you and the manager return to the tool corral (as you do, you
notice that the little pile of flyers is no longer where it was just a few
moments ago), explain that Hurst Annaho has the PC693PK for
$189.95 and that you'd like them to match the price--and give
you the 10% off reward for finding a lower price that HD ads
promise. Manager explains that they don't match "sale prices."
5. Explain to the manager that, in that case, you shall be taking
your $189.95 to Hurst Annaho and buying your router there, for
the guarantee doesn't say anything about "sale prices"--indeed,
that's why they started the guarantee in the first place. Then
turn around and start walking for the door.
6. At this point, one of two things will happen. Either you and
your two hundred bucks will make it out the door without any
comment from the manager, in which case you really do go to
Hurst Annaho and buy your router there, or the manager
realizes that two hundred bucks that could have been his
are heading down the street and starts after you screaming
that he's changed his mind and that he'll honor the guarantee
after all.
7. If the manager does have such a change of heart, you have
two options. The first is to purchase your router from Home Depot.
The second is to tell the manager that you gave him a chance to
honor his company's written policy and that, since he failed to
do it, you will be buying your router from Hurst Annaho anyway.
This does a few things for you. It gets you a router at the best
price. It encourages HD to follow its policies. And it cuts down on
the amount of grief you gotta take from those guys in the orange
aprons.
The people at Hurst Annaho will appreciate the business--a store
like that, which is in a building approximately the same size as
the tool corral at even a moderate Home Depot, can use all the
business we're willing to send its way.
And next time you walk in and ask them to honor their price-
match guarantee, I predict that they will be more than happy
to do it. (If they don't, what the heck. Hurst Annaho will love to
see you again.)
BTW, about the Annaho: It's a welder's supply store, mostly,
and Annaho is an acronym for Acetylene, Nitrogen, Nitrous
Oxide, Argon, Helium and Oxygen. The first six products they
sold.
--jmowreader
"I had some great tires this year. But I don't want to get
into that right now..."
--Jeff Gordon, at the 1998 Winston Cup Banquet
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 6:36 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Jim Mowreader wrote:
>
>
>
>
> This does a few things for you. It gets you a router at the best
> price. It encourages HD to follow its policies. And it cuts down on
> the amount of grief you gotta take from those guys in the orange
> aprons.
It seems to me you have already put yourself thru a lot of greif.
>
> The people at Hurst Annaho will appreciate the business--a store
> like that, which is in a building approximately the same size as
> the tool corral at even a moderate Home Depot, can use all the
> business we're willing to send its way.
>
It doesn't sound to me like you are willing to send any business his
way.Unless you are forced into it.
> And next time you walk in and ask them to honor their price-
> match guarantee, I predict that they will be more than happy
> to do it. (If they don't, what the heck. Hurst Annaho will love to
> see you again.)
>
>I think alot of you guys are missing the boat.I have never bought a tool from Home Depot,Lowes,Menards or Wal-Mart.I buy all my tools from a machinery dealer whose prices are as good as any mail order outfit or chain store.I don't live in the city.I live in a small town 90 miles from the dealer.On small items I have them the next day UPS.On machinery they deliver it on their truck.
Along with comparable prices I get service.They are also a authorized
service center for most any brand woodworking tool you can name.When
my tools break I need them fixed now.I don't call Delta or Powermatic
for parts and wait days for an order I have to pay for with a credit
card.
They also sell a very large seletion of tools,homeshop thru
industrial.
Something you won't find in a catalog or chain store.And they sell
strictly woodworking tools so they know the business.
This is not a one in a million dealer I get flyers from several in
just this state.I have always bought tools this way and would never
consider anything else.
Mike Bridges
From: Kip Yeager [kip at theoak.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:11 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Hi,
I have followed the threads too... on this list and on the Woodworker's
Bulletin Board. There is constant talk about the national concerns, it is
not varied at all!
I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
"quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron! I have an even worse
taste for companies who resort to the tactic of meeting the lower prices of
their competition! Why didn't they just offer the lower price to begin with?
Fact of the matter is WE get what WE pay for. If we buy Porter Cable from
Porter Cable (or an authorized distributor) we would probably purchase
quality... but we can buy Black & Decker from Walmart - and argue with the
manager about the price, no less - and the result is we all get "CHEAP"
because no one can afford to compete anymore because we are all arguing
about already "CHEAP" prices for already "CHEAP" merchandise!!
An antagonizer created a stir about Lowe's on the various woodworking
forums several months ago (including mine) and Lowe's webmaster emailed me
informing me he didn't think it would help for him to respond. I told him
he was a fool if he did!! He would only fuel the fire! Home Depot knows how
to handle it... they just keep their mouth shut! 'Wood' recently received a
bit of a bashing on one of my forums when their webmaster responded to a
thread about copyrights. I told him on the phone that the only criticism I
had of his response was that he responded at all! His content was very good
but its reception left somewhat to be desired...
The one thing theoak has to offer (along with VERY FEW other woodworking
sites) is that this is neutral ground. I would love to turn theoak into a
place where the end user can correspond with
manufacturer/retailer/wholesaler. But until we can take this discussion
beyond a "who can meet who's prices" mentality, I will not even suggest
that any major player has a place here! Do you think they are not watching?
Woodworker's have to support the woodworking industry. The industry is
doing its best to support us! I will not have theoak turned into a place
where we simply badger the woodworking industry further! We need to offer
them our support and then we will all have something!! They will respond in
kind. "They" are NOT our enemies!!
Thanks,
Kip
BTW. I sell welding supplies for a living so what in the hell is a welding
supply company doing in the woodworking business??? That is part of what
I'm talking about!! LOSE that garbage and support the WOODWORKING
industry... don't make it worse for us all than it already is!!
pps. Bring it on dudes!!! This is a healthy discussion!!
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:15 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Kip Yeager wrote:
>
> I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
> "quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron! I have an even worse
> taste for companies who resort to the tactic of meeting the lower prices of
> their competition! Why didn't they just offer the lower price to begin with?
>
The manufacturer sets the quality. The retailer sets the price. If you
can buy quality at a favorable price, why not do it? The case in point
is Home Depot, and they don't do "sales". Their version of a "sale" is
to beat the competition by 10%. I've done that three times, and I win
and they win. Why? Because I get a very favorable price on a good
tool, and they sell very few at that good price and minimize their
losses. If they advertised the good price to begin with, they would
probably sell many at a loss or minimal profit. I think that's smart
marketing.
> Fact of the matter is WE get what WE pay for. If we buy Porter Cable from
> Porter Cable (or an authorized distributor) we would probably purchase
> quality... but we can buy Black & Decker from Walmart - and argue with the
> manager about the price, no less - and the result is we all get "CHEAP"
> because no one can afford to compete anymore because we are all arguing
> about already "CHEAP" prices for already "CHEAP" merchandise!!
>
That's not even close to being right. If you want Porter Cable (or
DeWalt, or Delta), it makes sense to identify the tool you want and then
find the best available price. In fact, Porter Cable and DeWalt have
been my best buys at Home Depot.
> The one thing theoak has to offer (along with VERY FEW other woodworking
> sites) is that this is neutral ground. I would love to turn theoak into a
> place where the end user can correspond with
> manufacturer/retailer/wholesaler. But until we can take this discussion
> beyond a "who can meet who's prices" mentality, I will not even suggest
> that any major player has a place here! Do you think they are not watching?
>
Of course they are watching, and that's good. Some of the major makers
need an education. For example, I have an antique saber saw made by
Scintilla under the Lesco name. Bosch currently owns them. The saw was
unused for many years because no retail outlets had blades.
Communication with Bosch indicated that they had blades available, but
they would not sell them to me as an individual. It took an hour of my
time, and the time of a very helpful Home Depot employee to order them.
During the wait, the Home Depot guy apologized for the mandatory 40%
markup. It would have been much easier if Bosch had sold me the blades
directly at 20% above wholesale. Think about that. They make more
money, and I spend less money, and no time is wasted. It's a win-win
situation, but that option was not available.
> Woodworker's have to support the woodworking industry. The industry is
> doing its best to support us! I will not have theoak turned into a place
> where we simply badger the woodworking industry further! We need to offer
> them our support and then we will all have something!! They will respond in
> kind. "They" are NOT our enemies!!
I agree completely on the first point. I don't agree that we are
badgering the industry. The industry has some ugly warts that they
might be inspired to correct because of adverse posts on your list. My
view is to let the criticism flow. Just my opinion, and no offense
intended towards anyone. Regards,
Gerald
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Kip says:
>An antagonizer created a stir about Lowe's on the various woodworking
>forums several months ago (including mine) and Lowe's webmaster emailed me
>informing me he didn't think it would help for him to respond. I told him
>he was a fool if he did!!
From my perspective, I'd have to agree with Kip. Over on
rec.woodworking there are quite a few supplier/manufacturers who
contribute to the group. People like Rob Lee from Lee Valley, Art
from Suffolk or Ron Hock to name a few. They have always been well
treated by the group. What's the correlation? They sell a good
product and not necessarily at a cheap price.
Now I doubt that Sears/Lowe's/Home Depot, et al would be met with the
same reception. At least that's my take from the traffic that's been
generated to date. Maybe it has something to do with our love/hate
relationship with big business and the "axe to grind" syndrome.
Personally I think it has to do with service as in, you get what you
paid for.
>Do you think they are not watching?
Sometimes I really wonder.
>pps. Bring it on dudes!!! This is a healthy discussion!!
I agree. Have you ever seen people at shopping centers trolling for a
parking space close to the door? I can pull in, park and be in the
store before they've found a spot. Same thing applies to best price
shopping. My time isn't worth some of the frustration you receive.
On the other hand you may love the hunt associated with tracking down
a good deal. It's your call but don't expect sympathy from me when it
sours on you.
Keith Bohn
From: Trevor Stott [stott at dathomir.sheridanc.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:54 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
I used the price match at Home Depot with no problem on a Dewalt DW621 router.
I saved $70Cdn but after I got it home I started thinking about the local
shop that took the initial step and went out of it's way to offer a better
price and I screwed them and went to HD. After having thought about I can
tell you I will not do this again for $20 off the local shops price, I will in
turn support the little guy that appreciates my business. If HD truly offers
a better price than the local shop I might consider shopping there but I doubt
their everyday lowest price therefore no sales practice continues when they
can be beat on a number of items especially big ticket ones.
Just my thoughts....
Trevor
From: Thomas Carman [tecarman at goldrush.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 8:30 AM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Gerald Mayer wrote:
"The manufacturer sets the quality. The retailer sets the price."
On the surface this appears correct, but is it? I have been told buy a
reliable source that companies the size of Home Depot often force
manufacturers to make their Brand Name tools to their(the retailer)
specs so they they can be sold at cheaper prices. The buying power of
these large retailers is tremendous and this story may be closer to the
truth than we want it to be. I would hope that the folks we believe to
be quality manufactures would not fall prey to such tactics as I feel it
is a rape of the consumer. I don't mind paying for quality but we must
always remember to compare apples to apples. All things being equal, we
all look for bargain prices.
IMHO
Tom
From: Stacy W. Boncheff [bonch at ipa.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 9:08 AM
To: Jim Mowreader; Woodworking
Subject: RE: A Thought About HD's Price Match
You could always go to Lowe's and ask them to give you their 10% off match
deal. I have saved significant money at Lowe's over the years with no
trouble. The clerks just subtract 10% off the lowest price at the time of
checkout. Could not be easier.
Stacy
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 9:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
My 2 cents: (I will use HD as a templar - you can substitute Lowes or
other large chain suppliers.)
This is the first time I have disgreed with Kip and doing so in his "house"
seems inhospitable. That said, I belive Kip's philosophy of supporting your
local "Woodworking Store" is overly simple.
First of all, I wonder how many of the local store supporters do their food
shopping at local NON SPECIALTY grocers, butchers and if you can find one,
the local canned and frozen good supplier. (7-11s??). How long were they
loyal to "Joe's Food Mart" once a chain supermarket opened up nearby?
The ability or desire to support a local ww store (or any store for that
matter) SHOULD depend upon that store's pricing, stock availability, return
policies, customer service and availability. Favoring any one type of
store over another without comparing these fundamentals is misguided.
Here, in the metro areas from Boston to NYC, the local stores with ww
tools other than Skill and the ubiquitous B&D are rare and widely
scattered. The ones that do exist have much higher ticket prices (I have
seen Skill and B&D tools at LIST price!!) and little knowledge of
woodworking (as opposed to carpentry). The exceptions are few and far
between. My local ww store is theWoodworkers Warehouse chain - the only
other supplier is Force Tools - over 90 minutes away. Force Machinery has
a large inventory, great service (they are a Delta service center), and
mostly knowledgeable staff. But to get a decent price (sticker prices are
not much below list) you have to "talk" them down ( an unpleasant
experience). Local hardware stores are a complete waste of time --
("Square drive screws? Ya mean like a hex head???")
All six of my local HDs (within 30 minutes) have at least one person in
each deaprtment who is knowledgable. Sure they have kids too, but so do
the local hardware stores. And the kids at HD are not afraid to refer you
to the area expert - "I don't know, let's find Bill" is acceptable to me.
All six HDs also price match (with 10% off) other stores AND mail catalogs
(they do add a shipping fee, IF the mail order company charges one which
seems a fair balance to HD's stocking/inventory costs). Perhaps, 25% of the
time I have to get a manager to explain the policy to a new employee, but
it has been a minimum hassle.
To deal with a couple of Keith's comments"
>People like Rob Lee from Lee Valley, Art
>from Suffolk or Ron Hock to name a few. ... They sell a good
>product and not necessarily at a cheap price.
Keith, let's be fair. Lee Valley and Garrett Wade are highly specialty
stores. They stock items that exist nowhere else. They fill a nitch
market (like Tiffany's jewelry) and do it extraordinarily well. You cannot
compare them to Home Depots OR to Kip's beloved local ww store. I buy from
them items that I cannot get or see elsewhere. I would not buy a PC 690
from them, nor I suspect would you.
Keith also remarked:
> Have you ever seen people at shopping centers trolling for a
>parking space close to the door? I can pull in, park and be in the
>store before they've found a spot.
Not in most northeastern urban/suburban towns, you can't. Local downtown
parking is scarce and usually metered. To browse for more than 30 or 60
minutes requires a trip back to the car to feed the meter.
One local tool (and used tool) seller near me is run by the rudest, most
inhospitable merchant I have ever met. His new tools are priced at or
above LIST! He had a set of 6 Marple blues priced at $79.99!! A used B&D
low voltage screwdriver was priced $10 above the cost of a new one at all
the local home fix-up stores! When I questioned him about it, he said,
"Well, don't buy it!"
Kip remarked:
>I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
>"quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron!
Kip, a PC 690 is a PC 690. My buying it from HD adds the benefits of
lower cost and a no-question return policy! Local stores rely on the
manufacturer to "make good" which means using a mfr service center MANY
miles away. HD takes the not WANTED or not working tool and gives you your
money back or offers to get you another one from stock -- NO QUESTIONS on
how you used it, no hassle.
>Woodworker's have to support the woodworking industry. The industry is
>doing its best to support us! I will not have theoak turned into a place
>where we simply badger the woodworking industry further! We need to offer
>them our support and then we will all have something!! They will respond in
>kind. "They" are NOT our enemies!!
When the woodworking industry starts selling us tools that work OUT OF THE
BOX (like TV's, hand and stand food mixers, clothes washers and dryers,
microwave ovens, vacuum cleaners, toasters, even AUTOMOBILES!, dish
washers, etc., etc., etc.) and not have to rely on their
great/wonderful/"Gee, how amazing" post sales 800 service organizations,
then I will start to agree with you.
When the woodworking industry stops charging us outrageous amounts for
tools that are available in less expensive non-ww versions (like rulers,
and plastic right angle triangles), then I will start to agree with you.
Kip, perhaps, in rural areas where woodworking is a common hobby (as
opposed to urban/suburban metro areas where fine dining and mall touring
are more common pasttimes), your view is valid. But extending that beyond
the stores in YOUR community is not.
Your badgering HD's which serve us in metro areas FAR better than most
local shops is equally unfair.
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Jeff [jeffr at phonetech.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 10:03 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Kip Yeager wrote:
>I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
>"quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron! I have an even worse
>taste for companies who resort to the tactic of meeting the lower prices of
>their competition! Why didn't they just offer the lower price to begin with?
I think it is unfair to go after a guy who related his experiences in
attempting to get the best deal possible for his hard earned dollars.
Indeed, in this one case, he had determined that he wanted a "quality"
router and he simply wanted to obtain the best price he could from a local
dealer. This was not about trying to find the "cheapest" tool, or
expecting to get a high quality tool for a low quality price. Indeed, he
got the tool he wanted at a fair price and the overall message was that his
local HD would not honor its advertising. If someone else wants to spend
more or travel less when they buy tools, then that is fine, but why flame
one for trying to buy a good tool at a good price?
Jeff Rosson
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 9:45 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
<snip>
>I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
>"quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron! I have an even worse
>taste for companies who resort to the tactic of meeting the lower prices of
>their competition! Why didn't they just offer the lower price to begin
with?
>
<snip>
Agreed. I also have a bad taste in my mouth when equipment suppliers go out
of their way to try and trick unsuspecting buyers into thinking they are
getting "more for less".
Case in point #1: The furor over Craftsman tools which is often stated on
the 'net is generally a result of people finding that the brand they were
able to trust for quality and value up through the 1960s has steadily
cheapened it's quality while raising the price.
Case in point #2: A while ago Delta introduced the "Contractors Saw II".
Many unsuspecting customers, myself at the time included, where of the
impression that the "II" designation meant it was the new, improved version
of the well regarded classic Delta Contractors Saw. In retrospect, at the
time I did insufficient research, as I limited my research to *only* two
magazine reviews, the Delta web site, and conversations with the tool
salesman. None of that research turned up the fact that the CII was
actually a lighter duty, cheapened version of the product. It would be much
more appropriate to call that machine the Contractors Saw Junior. Aluminum
in place of cast iron for the trunions, for example, results in a saw which
is harder to keep in alignment (the differing rates of thermal expansion for
cast iron and aluminum being the likely cause) and surely would have a
lesser life span.
Case in point #3: Ridgid has built an outstanding reputation for it's brand
through decades spent offering top quality professional plumbing tools, and
at relatively high prices compared to lesser competing brands. Emerson
(Ridgid's corporate parent by way of acquisition) realizes that tremendous
brand equity has been built behind the Ridgid name. Emerson then made the
decision to introduce slightly modified versions of their ex-Sears line of
woodworking machines under the Ridgid brand name *not because they meet the
same standards of quality as people have come to expect of the Ridgid name,
but because of the unjustified mental association unsuspecting buyers are
likely to make between the two product lines*. Customers are expected to
make the mental assumption that Ridgid is to pipe wrenches (best in class)
as Ridgid is to woodworking machines. Great short term marketing strategy,
but fundamentally untrue.
In my view we have a bilateral system of undiscerning customers and
unscrupulous suppliers. In general, the supplier side of the fence has more
information and more disinformation (advertising) at it's disposal than
does any one particular customer. The advantage of the 'net is that in a
small way, the customer side of the game is slightly improving it's ability
to share and develop information.
Back to case #2, had I checked www.dejanews.com about the Contractors Saw II
(CII) before making my purchase, I would have known immediately that it was
a watered down, cheapened version of the Delta saw. For those who don't
have access to the 'net, they probably would never find out this fact.
Interestingly enough, I happened to have bought the CII at Home Depot, where
they gave me a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. During the first 20 days of
use I had to realign the saw (trunion to table) six times and I wasn't happy
at all. I didn't enjoy having to tear the thing down, pack it up and drive
45 minutes to the store, but I did get my money back. The local
woodworking equipment dealers never give a satisfaction guarantee. Even so,
I bought my Delta Unisaw at a local dealer and it has been performing
magnificently for me.
I believe strongly in the adage: Pay for what you get, and get what you pay
for. Both customers and suppliers regularly attempt to avoid this maxim.
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 10:02 AM
To: Robert Methelis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Bob,
I'm kinda playing Devil's Advocate with this one. But I believe in
whenever I can, to buy locally at a small business and happily pay more
for the product of my choice. I mainly do that because I am selfish! I
want insure in a small way, that when I need something that a large
merchandiser doesn't sell millions of, that I can buy it. A case in
point is when I needed a small amount of #10 window envelopes. As you
may know, envelopes usually come in box's of 500. An amount I won't live
long enough to use. I went to a local stationeer who carries items like
that where I could purchase 1 or whatever. Their office supplies were
reduced to next to nothing. Inquiring, I was told that they couldn't
compete with mass merchandise office suppliers in price nor inventory.
Anyone need 493 #10 window envelopes? Seriously now, that is typical of
why I shop local small whenever I can.
Having knowledgeable personnel in your area HD type stores is indeed an
exception, and uncommonly different. Enjoy it while you can. But I still
prefer to buy where the variety is not necessarily based upon large
quantity of sales, where bad information input into computers and theft
does not effect an "out of stock" situation, and where questions and
advise given is not based upon what the buyers will buy. If I go to my
local tool store and ask for a double cutter multi-spur bit, I'll get
it, even if they need to order it for me. Try that other than local. And
where would you go to get a 103 1/2" bandsaw blade, RIGHT NOW? ...Oh,
they went out of business?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
> Bob Methelis
>
> Bob-in-NJ on IRC
> Come visit my site
> http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:55 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Hi Jim
In the example you gave for the router, $1.00 is all you would have
saved by the 10% price guaranty HD offers. You probably spent more
than the buck in gas. If you put a value on your time of say $6.00
and hour then the 10 min you spent in HD arguing over the price + 10%
guaranty would have cost $1.00. Now my time is worth a lot more than
$6.00 an hour to me. So next time you want to stick it to HD for
their price guaranty do the math. Life is much to short to be giving
it away in unpleasant activities that have a minimal reward.
As for supporting your local service oriented woodworking store.
Support the local store because you find good value in the store. The
value can be in price, service, stock availability, convenience.
Don't support the local store just because it is local. If you don't
feel you are getting good value then others will feel the same way.
The store will not survive without giving good value. You can and
should help any store that you value. If a store you frequent is not
meeting your expectations let them know how they are falling short.
Thanks
Richard
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 12:06 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Robert Methelis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Don,
You made some good points. I thought I'd check out HD's bandsaw blade
inventory. If you need a very cheap blade for your 8-10" hobby saw, you may
be in luck. They had NO bands for a 14" saw. Way across the parking lot
and across the street is the local store, The Tool Peddler. They have a
wall full of bands for everything from portable saws to 24" resaw machines,
and at decent prices. Their abrasive selection is outstanding, and the
prices are lower than HD because you're not paying for consumer packaging.
The only thing of importance I've bought from HD is a Record 52 1/2 vise,
because the guys at the Tool Peddler wanted 25% more for theirs.
I'd hate to see either the HDs or the Tool Peddlers go away. The HDs of the
world let us buy things that only wholesalers used to sell, like electrical
and plumbing supplies. But I hate the big parking lots and seeing new faces
every trip.
Gary
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 12:49 PM
To: Thomas Carman; Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
>"The manufacturer sets the quality. The retailer sets the price."
I have a good friend whom I've known for many years in the rental business
who also sells Stihl and "Mac" chainsaws, string trimmers, etc.
He is also an authorized (and proficient) service center for these and many
other power tool products.
He informed me that while you can get the same brand of tool at Walmart, HD,
Lowes, et al... it is not the same product. The manufacturers make one
product for their "tool" vendors who also offer service and advice and a
second, inferior product to the mass merchants. They will be the same
color, same general appearance, same, same, same on the outside, but
differences are found beneath the surface... Different bearings, different
vibration dampers, different crankshafts, etc.
So, buy carefully.
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:04 AM
To: Kip Yeager
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
I am afraid my perspective is alittle different. I had been out of woodworking for quite some time due to bad a bad marriage, money and various other circumstances. Well about three years ago, things got better and I was able to pursue this "hobby" of making saw dust again. So I went to the local Sears, bought some tools, read some books, read some magazines, bought some more tools, read some more, then I discovered "the oak". And from this learning process I have now been able to tell the difference between good tools and cheap tools. But when I want to purchase my good tools, I still want the best value for my hard earned money. Case in point:
Last week SWMBO and I went to Dallas on some business, we concluded early, so since we were in the big city we went shopping. Our jaunt took us to a Woodcraft store, now I find the Woodcraft stores neat, all the drool and info under one roof. SWMBO wants to get me a PC557 biscuit jointer for xmas, their price was $219.95 plus tax. having researched the WW rags revealed TOOL CRIB had same tool for $189.95 no tax, free shipping. Now I ask. Is all the "service and knowledge" that the Woodcraft people can provide worth forty dollars difference? In my book, no.
Anyway, we then stopped at a local Home Depot, same tool retails for $199.95 plus tax. Signs, banners and flyers all over the store announcing that they will match "ANY PRICE" plus 10% difference, no small print, no exceptions listed, but the HD manager on duty declined to match Tool Cribs ad. Well to end this long tirade, we did not buy the tools at HD, and will probably order it from TC. And that was not a matter of ten/fifteen dollars difference, it was a matter of principle. In my eyes they were not honoring what they advertised.
Thanks for listening.
Dave Tinley
Waco, Texas
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 3:01 PM
To: Mack Neff
Cc: Thomas Carman; Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Mack,
I know all about this.Found out the hard way.I needed another 3/8"
drill on a Saturday and needed it now.The only places in town were
Wal-Mart and Sears.Now I haven't been in a Sears store in years but
had heard they were selling name brand tools.Went to Sears and bought
a Bosch 3/8" drill.What a mistake.I have a Bosch 1/2" drill I bought
from a machinery dealer that is smooth as silk.The Sears drill sounded
and vibrated like a Makita.The bearing and who knows what else were
not near the quality of my other Bosch tools.
Mike Bridges
Mack Neff wrote:
>
> >"The manufacturer sets the quality. The retailer sets the price."
>
> I have a good friend whom I've known for many years in the rental business
> who also sells Stihl and "Mac" chainsaws, string trimmers, etc.
>
> He is also an authorized (and proficient) service center for these and many
> other power tool products.
>
> He informed me that while you can get the same brand of tool at Walmart, HD,
> Lowes, et al... it is not the same product. The manufacturers make one
> product for their "tool" vendors who also offer service and advice and a
> second, inferior product to the mass merchants. They will be the same
> color, same general appearance, same, same, same on the outside, but
> differences are found beneath the surface... Different bearings, different
> vibration dampers, different crankshafts, etc.
>
> So, buy carefully.
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 3:30 PM
To: Mike Bridges
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Today I was in HD looking through the tool crib and noticed a Bosch 3/8 VSR
corded drill for $59.00... Well, it caught my eye as my Milwaukee is out being
fixed...... Upon a closer look, the new Bosch is made in Mylasia, Not Germany or
the US as with all their quality jig saws and such.... It looks as if Bosch is
introducing a cheap line of tools much like B&D did, that destroyed their name
in the tool industry....... This is probably the drill you bought thinking it
was an original Bosch....
Brian..........
molinari at tiac.net
Buy the best and only cry when the wife finds out !!!
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 3:57 PM
To: Brian Molinari
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Brian,
Probably the same drill.I just paid more money for it at Sears too.I
hadn't been in a Sears store in 15 years and knew there was a good
reason.That's what happens when ya work weekends I guess.
Mike Bridges
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 2:59 PM
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: A Thought About HD's Price Match
In a message dated 12/10/98 4:28:31 PM, mneff at muscanet.com writes:
<< The
largest selection of woodworking tools/supplies is Lowes. >>
Having just finished some Xmas shopping for myself and my son at Woodwprkers'
warehouse and Lowes, let me give you my perspective.
For average DIY persons. Lowes is OK for drills, saws, etc. But, for serious
woodworkers, Woodworkers Warehouse is the place (or perhaps Woodcraft). For a
moderate priced circular saw (SKIL), Lowes was hard to beat. Woodworkers
Warehouse had only 3X price range ($150 and up). For compound miter saws,
Woodworkers Warehouse had the best selection AND comparable prices.
Lee Harper
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 6:14 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Mack, I had to read your message a few times to understand what you're
saying. My first reading led me to believe that you were saying that a
PC 690 router bought at Home Depot is of lesser quality than a PC 690
bought elsewhere. That simply isn't true, and a manufacturer would be
committing suicide if he did such a thing. Subsequent readings showed
your true message, which is that lesser quality tools from the same
manufacturer often show up at mass merchandising stores, but they are
distinguished by different model numbers. I can believe that, but Home
Depot carries the specific models of the tools I want to buy, so I buy
with confidence. I think that if you decide on a specific make and
model, you can buy it mail order, from Home Depot, or from the local
hardware store and be assured of getting the same quality. I use all
three sources of supply.
I don't shop for a router at the lowest price. I decide on the specific
router I want first, and then shop for the lowest price on that make and
model. That was the basis for the quote you used from my message. I do
understand that when the retailer is large enough, the retailer can
dictate the quality, but that product will always be distinguished by a
different model number. Regards,
Gerald
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
This will probably be my last post on this topic. (Hark, do I hear sighs of
relief? Hmm, I wonder why I seem to use "hark" only in December?)
ANYway.....
My goal is NOT to be Home Depot's advocate. What I do advocate is:
"The ability or desire to support a local ww store (or any store for that
matter) SHOULD depend upon that store's pricing, stock availability, return
policies, customer service and availability. Favoring any one type of
store over another without comparing these fundamentals is misguided."
My Home Depots meet the criteria (yours may not) and I think all Home
Depots as a group are victims of great myths and unsupported gut reactions.
I will not support a store that treats me poorly even if they have lower
prices. For example, Bradlee stores are huge discounters in this area.
Their prices, especially on sales items, for small appliances, kitchen
accessories are super, but they are customer wish deaf. I will not buy
anything from them. My pet peeve about them is that they have at least 25
checkouts, but never more than 3 are open. Ok, at Christmas, they'll open
a few more.
Overall, I am a very demanding customer -- especially of large chain stores
(not exclusively however). On more than one occassion, my wonderful,
less-demanding, more easily embarrassed, SWMBO, has walked away from me.
I probably speak to more chain store managers than any regional VP! A few
true stories to give you an idea of my mentality with chain stores.
If I cannot find a service person. I will pick up any nearby store
telephone (they hang on pillars in each department), and dial single digits
until I get the store's main desk:
"Main desk."
"Hello, I need customer assistance in x department."
"Who is this," says main desk.
"This is a customer who needs help," says I.
"How did you get this number," main desk asks.
"Just lucky, I guess. Now can I have some help in x?"
"Ah, Sir, this phone is for internal store use!"
"Exactly! I am IN the store and need help."
Help arrives!
My real triumph was when the single digit push, put me on the store's PA
system. I knew that because my "Hello" reverbated throughout the store.
With great glee, I announced, "Customer service needed NOW in department
x." Within moments, the store manager, the area clerk and two subordinates
arrive. "Did you use the PA system," the manager demanded to know. "I
did. And it works great. I've been hanging here for 15 minutes with no
help and now I have 4 of you!"
I consider signs saying "Store Employees Only" as really meaning, "This Is
Where We Are Hiding". And, it is. It's a rare day, when I cannot find
three clerks and a manger behind the door.
I was in a K-Mart comparing prices on an item and didn't have a pen. I
found a young kid with a K Mart vest and asked to borrow pen or pencil.
"Don't have one," he muttered despite his having a plastic stick-like thing
in his shirt pocket. I wander some more and find a slightly older woman,
working at the area desk on some kind of inventory sheet with a red pen.
"Excuse me, may I borrow a pen or pencil?" " I am sorry, this is the only
one I could find and I have to get this done," she apologized.
Ok. Off I go to their stationery department. WOW. Hundreds, nay
thousands, of pens and pencils! I take down a pack of cheap, stick
ballpoints, open the pack, and jot my note. I then go visit the nice
woman with the red pen and give her two from the pack. "Compliments of
K-Mart!" I then go to the service desk, ask for the manager and give him
the remaining pens. "Your staff seems to have no pens to lend a customer
who might need one. Please pass these out," I say. "These are for sale
only! You can't give these to store employees?, he said with amazement.
"You are confusing "may" and "can," I did, so obviously I can. You may not
want me too, but that's different." "By the way, where do employees get
pens so they won't fear lending one to a customer?, I asked. He never
replied; only walked away. As it turned out their sale was a great one and
I went back and bought the $200 item at 20% less than other stores.
Regarding the individual responses to my post:
Don Weisman said:
"A case in point is when I needed a small amount of #10 window envelopes."
I guess screws, nuts and bolt are a hardware store's equivalent. HD sells
a variety of these items INDIVIDUALLY (you can buy one nut), in small packs
of 5 or so, or in cartons of 100s.
"Having knowledgeable personnel in your area HD type stores is indeed an
exception, and uncommonly different. Enjoy it while you can."
Don, I do enjoy it and so far all 6 HD's have mantained that caliber of
staff. Not all the staff, but at least one in each area.
"But I still prefer ..., where bad information input into computers and
theft does not effect an "out of stock" situation...."
Don, my experience has been that I would rely on HD's automated inventory
rather than Jack, the local hardware guy's scribbling the item on the back
of a paper bag.
"I'll get it, even if they need to order it for me. Try that other than
local."
Don, I and others have tried special orders at other than a local. HD is
great about special orders. Gerald Mayer wrote:
A year ago, I found out by investigating the Bosch web site that they
still had blades in stock for my 50 year old "Lesto Electric Hand Saw".
Of course, they don't stock those obsolete blades and have no intention of
doing so. That didn't stop him from spending an hour on the computer and
the phone to get them special ordered for me.
"and mass merchandisers can never be as low as mail order...all with good
reason"
Don, HD matches and reduces mail order prices (incl shipping) by 10%.
"Which one you get is dependant upon the model number. You can bet your
booties the mass merchandiser only carries 1.
HD carries many models of MANY of the major manufacturers. My local
small stores carry Skill and Black and Decker and MAYBE one other
manufacturer. I have had a local hardware guy tell me - and he believed
it! - that now that B&D and DeWalt are the same company, all their tools
are the same quality. Ya right! My local store guys have only used Skill
and B&D (as did I until I got this darn WW bug and began to READ). They
really don't know that a Bosch jigsaw is mega factors better than a B&D.
(The difference amazed me!)
Now on to Gary Cavener. Gary wrote:
"The only thing of importance I've bought from HD is a Record 52 1/2 vise,
because the guys at the Tool Peddler wanted 25% more for theirs. I'd hate
to see either the HDs or the Tool Peddlers go away. The HDs of the
world let us buy things that only wholesalers used to sell, like electrical
and plumbing supplies.
My point exactly. Buy from the store which offers what you want - stock,
price and service! But, please don't disparage all stores of a single type
as some seem to be doing.
"But I hate the big parking lots and seeing new faces every trip."
Ah, perhaps again the difference between the metro area and non-metro. I
hate the few, almost non-existent metered parking spots in our local
downtowns. I hate carrying bulky items 2 blocks or more to the nearest
metered spot I could find beacuse the local has NO carriages. Happily, the
"experts in my local HDs have remained with the stores -- I too enjoy
seeing familiar faces who know what kind of work I am doing.
Mack Neff touches on the great MYTH that the large outlets sell inferior
goods disguised as the good stuff.
"He informed me that while you can get the same brand of tool at Walmart,
HD, Lowes, et al... it is not the same product. ...So, buy carefully."
I have not seen an instance of this at HD. I have seen it at other
merchandisers, but the model number is always different and usually it has
a different brand name. Sears, which I detest, (their prices are bad,
their service is non-existent and their tools are exactly what Mack's
friend speaks of) is the prime example of disuising. A PC 690 is a PC 690.
Thinking that Pc will sell megastore Y inferior PC 690s dressed up and
showing "model 690" is a myth.
BY THE WAY, to get an idea of where I live. We are so urban that the
nearest WalMart is more than 90 minutes away!
Ken Mugrage wrote:
"When I buy a tool from my small local hardware store (which has an OSH
right across the street from it), the store owner is always happy to
explain the ins and outs of using it right.... To me the key for a local
shop's success in the world of price slashing giants is value added
services. If you have a medium size work area, run a few classes every
month. I'll happily pay you $40 to be 1 of 10 people in a hour long hands
on course.
In my area, the opposite is true. In fact, HD has a new ad campaign
extolling their FREE classes ( all home improvement types,alas) and
individual instruction when you buy. True example. I REALLY hate plumbing
and refuse to do it. "Plumbers don't do insurance, so why should I plumb"
is my tongue in cheek excuse. However, we had a toilet that kept running.
I tried the usual remedies, but it was obvious replacement was needed. Off
to HD. Stare at MANY MANY parts, kits, etc. "Hi, can I help," asks the
red vested guy. I tell him the toilet runs. He asks me to describe the
toilet and the brand and hands me a package. I start to read the fine
print instructions. "Never done this before?, he smiles. "Nope, " says me
and quickly add "But I do do woodworking and have ww tools" so he won't
think I am a total wimp. (Between you and me, I am a home improvement wimp!)
He leads me over to a sample toilet, opens the package of parts and SHOWS
me where every thing goes.
LAST. John Horner wrote:
"Only later did I learn that Delta intentionally sells the two products
through different sales channels so as to make direct price comparisons
between the models difficult to impossible."
Not quite true. HD has stopped carrying the CS, but will order it for you.
The local Woodworkers Warehouse and Firce Machinery both have the CS and
CSII satnding side by side. So much for that Delta myth.
In sum, a smart consumer checks all sources for signifiicant purchases.
Support the individual store that meets your needs not any one type of store.
Would, Kip, Don, Matt, Ken and John respond to my question:
"I wonder how many of the "only buy from local store" supporters do their
food shopping at local NON SPECIALTY grocers, butchers and if you can find
one, the local canned and frozen good supplier. (7-11s??). How long were
they loyal to "Joe's Food Mart" once a chain supermarket opened up nearby?
Might the food shopper in your household be wiser than you? ;-)
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 10:04 AM
To: Robert Methelis; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Bob,
It's snip time
>>My Home Depots meet the criteria (yours may not) and I think all Home
Depots as a group are victims of great myths and unsupported gut reactions.
As I have had a home built this last year, done landscaping and irrigation,
built a storage shed, turned part of my garage into a woodworking shop, I've
spent over $8,000 at HD and their competitor up the street, Home Base. I am
definitely an HD fan. I just don't choose to buy significant tools from
them because my buddies at The Tool Peddler will match HD's prices, and HD
doesn't stock stationary tools that are of a quality acceptable to me.
>>I will not support a store that treats me poorly even if they have lower
prices. snip My pet peeve about them is that they have at least 25
checkouts, but never more than 3 are open. Ok, at Christmas, they'll open
a few more.
So why's it OK to have to stand in line at Home Depot?
Overall, I am a very demanding customer -- especially of large chain stores
(not exclusively however).
snip
>>Regarding the individual responses to my post:
Don Weisman said:
"A case in point is when I needed a small amount of #10 window envelopes."
I guess screws, nuts and bolt are a hardware store's equivalent. HD sells
a variety of these items INDIVIDUALLY (you can buy one nut), in small packs
of 5 or so, or in cartons of 100s.
"Having knowledgeable personnel in your area HD type stores is indeed an
exception, and uncommonly different. Enjoy it while you can."
Don, I do enjoy it and so far all 6 HD's have mantained that caliber of
staff. Not all the staff, but at least one in each area.
This may be my experience only, but at HD in plumbing, electrical, lighting,
and the tool area, I know at least one person, and they remember me. I
sometimes ask a few questions of the ones I don't recognize, and if they try
to snow me, I thank them for their time and go find someone else. When I
find the person that actually knows what they're doing, they're my friend
for life. I do grow weary of having to go through the search for someone
who knows or cares.
snip
>>Now on to Gary Cavener. Gary wrote:
>> "The only thing of importance I've bought from HD is a Record 52 1/2
vise,
because the guys at the Tool Peddler wanted 25% more for theirs. I'd hate
to see either the HDs or the Tool Peddlers go away. The HDs of the
world let us buy things that only wholesalers used to sell, like electrical
and plumbing supplies.
>>My point exactly. Buy from the store which offers what you want - stock,
price and service! But, please don't disparage all stores of a single type
as some seem to be doing.
>>"But I hate the big parking lots and seeing new faces every trip."
>>Ah, perhaps again the difference between the metro area and non-metro. I
hate the few, almost non-existent metered parking spots in our local
downtowns. I hate carrying bulky items 2 blocks or more to the nearest
metered spot I could find beacuse the local has NO carriages. Happily, the
"experts in my local HDs have remained with the stores -- I too enjoy
seeing familiar faces who know what kind of work I am doing.
I shop in an urban situation myself, but all my favorite woodworking and
tool haunts except HD provide me with parking within 50' of the door.
snip
>>In my area, the opposite is true. In fact, HD has a new ad campaign
extolling their FREE classes ( all home improvement types,alas) and
individual instruction when you buy. True example. I REALLY hate plumbing
and refuse to do it. "Plumbers don't do insurance, so why should I plumb"
is my tongue in cheek excuse. However, we had a toilet that kept running.
I tried the usual remedies, but it was obvious replacement was needed. Off
to HD. Stare at MANY MANY parts, kits, etc. "Hi, can I help," asks the
red vested guy. I tell him the toilet runs. He asks me to describe the
toilet and the brand and hands me a package. I start to read the fine
print instructions. "Never done this before?, he smiles. "Nope, " says me
and quickly add "But I do do woodworking and have ww tools" so he won't
think I am a total wimp. (Between you and me, I am a home improvement
wimp!)
He leads me over to a sample toilet, opens the package of parts and SHOWS
me where every thing goes.
Same experience here. Most of the classes are taught by a fellow I've known
for over 20 years. He is a master woodworker, and spends lots of time
learning how to do home improvement procedures that are new to him.
snip
In sum, a smart consumer checks all sources for signifiicant purchases.
Support the individual store that meets your needs not any one type of
store.
Amen!
Gary Cavener
Oregon City, Oregon
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 11:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
>LAST. John Horner wrote:
> "Only later did I learn that Delta intentionally sells the two products
>through different sales channels so as to make direct price comparisons
>between the models difficult to impossible."
>
>Not quite true. HD has stopped carrying the CS, but will order it for you.
> The local Woodworkers Warehouse and Firce Machinery both have the CS and
>CSII satnding side by side. So much for that Delta myth.
>
My information about Delta sales channels comes from visiting and speaking
with the only two machinery dealers in the greater San Jose area as well as
a local Home Depot store. The fact that Home Depot will special order
things is pretty much irrelevant to the side by side comparison point to
which I was originally responding.
That of course was a little over one year ago. Home Depot in this area is
closing out their Delta stationary equipment and replacing it with Ridgid.
How convenient with respect to the low price guarantee that the Ridgid
woodworking machinery line is being sold exclusively through Home Depot.
Home Depot is moving aggressively into captive brands wherever possible.
Their hand tool and tool chest line is now predominately "Husky" branded,
which brand was once more broadly distributed, but now is exclusive to HD.
HD is the only large national home improvement store chain participating in
the Silicon Valley market. Orchard Supply is a moderately large regional
chain, but was bought out by Sears a little over a year ago and is moving
rapidly towards being a mostly-Craftsman brand supplier.
I stand by my statement that the primary reason Delta chose the term
"Contractors Saw II" instead of "Contractors Saw Junior" was to mislead
unsuspecting customers.
Another clear deception by Delta is in the labeling of it's popular 8"
jointer. A few months ago I was jointer shopping. Having learned my
lesson, I went to the major local equipment dealer. The stand of the Delta
8" jointer as set up on the display floor has a large sticker featuring the
US flag in full color and the words "Proudly Made In America". Only
because I've been doing more research these days, I knew that the jointer
was actually made in Taiwan. By crawling around the machine I found a
small, monochrome, tag on the back of the jointer proper which indeed said
"Made in Taiwan". While it is technically true that the sheet metal stand
is made in the USA and the guts of the jointer are made in Taiwan, there can
be no reason for the relative placement of the tags other than to mislead
unsuspecting customers. Had I not been forewarned of that fact that the
jointer was made in Taiwan while only the stand was made in the US, I would
have assumed that the entire machine was made in the USA. I deeply resent
the obvious fact that Delta has clearly placed the big label in front
claiming how proud they are of making the machine in the USA while hiding
the fact that the majority of the machine was actually imported from Taiwan.
Judge for yourself how "mythical" my observations are.
John
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 11:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Robert Methelis said, in part:
>Would, Kip, Don, Matt, Ken and John respond to my question:
>"I wonder how many of the "only buy from local store" supporters do their
>food shopping at local NON SPECIALTY grocers, butchers and if you can find
>one, the local canned and frozen good supplier. (7-11s??). How long were
>they loyal to "Joe's Food Mart" once a chain supermarket opened up nearby?
>
>Might the food shopper in your household be wiser than you? ;-)
First, I never made any statements to effect of "only buy from local store".
My comments where to the point that manufacturers and retailers often
mislead customers.
Second, I do about 60% of the grocery shopping in our household. Your
sexist wisecrack about who the food shopper might be in my home is both
offensive and unfounded. You know nothing about who shops for what in my
household. For the record, I'm a married man with a terrific wife and an
amazing daughter. We do not ascribe to strict divisions of labor, thought
there are often things each of us does with somewhat greater frequency than
the other. For example, my wife and I have tried many different models for
managing the financial chores of our household. Our current agreement is
that I make sure the bills are paid on time and she balances the checkbook.
This way we share the load while both staying well informed about our
personal financial matters. We have changed arrangements of that sort in
the past and may well do so again in the future.
As far as where I buy things from, I regularly use local small suppliers,
chain stores, Costco, catalog companies, internet shopping and just about
every other form of commerce with the exception of never buying from TV
advertisements or telemarketers. Convenience, price, selection, service,
hassle factor and after the sale service all figure into my choice of where
to buy from. I don't have a particular religion about it. I do expect
honest dealing and courteous service no matter what the nature of the
supplier.
We do our personal banking with a small local bank because that is where we
get the best service for routine financial business. We do our investment
banking with one of the largest companies in the world because they have the
products, resources and expertise we require and because of the quality and
service their representative affords us.
Competition is good. There is not one best business model which suits all
situations. Honesty should be valued, and deception must be pointed out.
John
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 12:00 PM
To: Kip Yeager
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: A Thought About HD's Price Match
Kip & all;
I totally agree with Kip, we are here to exchange ideas on woodworking.
It is nice (and maybe envious)to know that JD (John Doe) spent $50 less
on that saw in Anytown, USA at the local Box Store, but it does not help
the guy/gal in Melbourne, Manchester, Minneapolis or Montreal. Even in
the big discount places, their prices are localized to reflect an
excessive inventory or a particular "deal" from the local MFR. Rep.
Manufacturers are now drastically lowering their profit margin because
of the demands of the big chains for lower prices. The manufacturers
know exactly what it costs to produce a product to keep their heads
above water, maintain their quality, reputation, workforce and compete
with the off-shore people.
Do we REALLY want to sacrifice quality for price? I don't think so!
Let's let the quality product manufacturers make a fair margin of profit
on their sales and keep the national employment rate on the up-side.
Graham
Kip Yeager wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have followed the threads too... on this list and on the Woodworker's
> Bulletin Board. There is constant talk about the national concerns, it is
> not varied at all!
>
> I have a bad taste in my mouth for those who think they are going to find
> "quality" at "cheap" prices. That is an oxymoron! I have an even worse
> taste for companies who resort to the tactic of meeting the lower prices of
> their competition! Why didn't they just offer the lower price to begin with?
>
> Fact of the matter is WE get what WE pay for. If we buy Porter Cable from
> Porter Cable (or an authorized distributor) we would probably purchase
> quality... but we can buy Black & Decker from Walmart - and argue with the
> manager about the price, no less - and the result is we all get "CHEAP"
> because no one can afford to compete anymore because we are all arguing
> about already "CHEAP" prices for already "CHEAP" merchandise!!
>
> An antagonizer created a stir about Lowe's on the various woodworking
> forums several months ago (including mine) and Lowe's webmaster emailed me
> informing me he didn't think it would help for him to respond. I told him
> he was a fool if he did!! He would only fuel the fire! Home Depot knows how
> to handle it... they just keep their mouth shut! 'Wood' recently received a
> bit of a bashing on one of my forums when their webmaster responded to a
> thread about copyrights. I told him on the phone that the only criticism I
> had of his response was that he responded at all! His content was very good
> but its reception left somewhat to be desired...
>
> The one thing theoak has to offer (along with VERY FEW other woodworking
> sites) is that this is neutral ground. I would love to turn theoak into a
> place where the end user can correspond with
> manufacturer/retailer/wholesaler. But until we can take this discussion
> beyond a "who can meet who's prices" mentality, I will not even suggest
> that any major player has a place here! Do you think they are not watching?
>
> Woodworker's have to support the woodworking industry. The industry is
> doing its best to support us! I will not have theoak turned into a place
> where we simply badger the woodworking industry further! We need to offer
> them our support and then we will all have something!! They will respond in
> kind. "They" are NOT our enemies!!
>
> Thanks,
> Kip
>
> BTW. I sell welding supplies for a living so what in the hell is a welding
> supply company doing in the woodworking business??? That is part of what
> I'm talking about!! LOSE that garbage and support the WOODWORKING
> industry... don't make it worse for us all than it already is!!
>
> pps. Bring it on dudes!!! This is a healthy discussion!!
>
>
>
>
>
> At 08:23 PM 12/8/98 -0500, Jim Mowreader wrote:
> >I've been following a few varied threads on this list and on
> >rec.woodworking about the extreme difficulty of getting some
> >of our local HD stores to honor their price match guarantee,
> >which doesn't seem like much of a guarantee at all, at least to
> >me.
> >
> >Okay, so how about trying this:
> >1. You're in the mood for a new router, mainly because the bearings
> >on your Sears budget special just hit MTBF (mean time before failure)
> >and did the F part with a vengeance. After cleaning up the little
> >chunks all over the floor, you decide that a PC693PK sounds like just
> >what the doctor ordered. Car keys and checkbook in hand, you
> >head out for a little router-buying trip with maybe a side jaunt to the
> >bookstore for a cup of whatever turns you on and a peek at the
> >woodworking books.
> >
> >2. After hitting the four stores in the area that sell Porter-Cable, you
> >find that the locally-owned tool dealer (we'll call them Hurst Annaho,
> >who is the locally-owned tool dealer in Fayetteville even though they
> >sell Bosch and not Porter-Cable) has it for $189.95 and HD, Lowes and
> >Sears all have it for $199.95. HD has the 10% price-match guarantee,
> >right? Off to harass the HD tool-corral people.
> >
> >3. The tool corral clerk at HD feigns ignorance of the price-match
> >guarantee. Point it out for him in their latest flyer, a little pile of
> >which
> >are laying beside the cash register. "Oh, that. We don't do that."
> >Ask to speak to the manager.
> >
> >4. As you and the manager return to the tool corral (as you do, you
> >notice that the little pile of flyers is no longer where it was just a few
> >moments ago), explain that Hurst Annaho has the PC693PK for
> >$189.95 and that you'd like them to match the price--and give
> >you the 10% off reward for finding a lower price that HD ads
> >promise. Manager explains that they don't match "sale prices."
> >
> >5. Explain to the manager that, in that case, you shall be taking
> >your $189.95 to Hurst Annaho and buying your router there, for
> >the guarantee doesn't say anything about "sale prices"--indeed,
> >that's why they started the guarantee in the first place. Then
> >turn around and start walking for the door.
> >
> >6. At this point, one of two things will happen. Either you and
> >your two hundred bucks will make it out the door without any
> >comment from the manager, in which case you really do go to
> >Hurst Annaho and buy your router there, or the manager
> >realizes that two hundred bucks that could have been his
> >are heading down the street and starts after you screaming
> >that he's changed his mind and that he'll honor the guarantee
> >after all.
> >
> >7. If the manager does have such a change of heart, you have
> >two options. The first is to purchase your router from Home Depot.
> >The second is to tell the manager that you gave him a chance to
> >honor his company's written policy and that, since he failed to
> >do it, you will be buying your router from Hurst Annaho anyway.
> >
> >This does a few things for you. It gets you a router at the best
> >price. It encourages HD to follow its policies. And it cuts down on
> >the amount of grief you gotta take from those guys in the orange
> >aprons.
> >
> >The people at Hurst Annaho will appreciate the business--a store
> >like that, which is in a building approximately the same size as
> >the tool corral at even a moderate Home Depot, can use all the
> >business we're willing to send its way.
> >
> >And next time you walk in and ask them to honor their price-
> >match guarantee, I predict that they will be more than happy
> >to do it. (If they don't, what the heck. Hurst Annaho will love to
> >see you again.)
> >
> >BTW, about the Annaho: It's a welder's supply store, mostly,
> >and Annaho is an acronym for Acetylene, Nitrogen, Nitrous
> >Oxide, Argon, Helium and Oxygen. The first six products they
> >sold.
> >
> >--jmowreader
> >
> >"I had some great tires this year. But I don't want to get
> >into that right now..."
> >--Jeff Gordon, at the 1998 Winston Cup Banquet
> >
> >
> >
>
> The Oak Factory Woodworker's Mailing List
> http://theoak.com http://theoak.com/mdomo.html
> Kip Yeager Groves, Texas USA 409-962-1514
--
Graham
ShortCuts - http://www.shortcuts.ns.caFrom: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 4:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A warning received.
Better warned than sorry.
I had a warning last night. I was using the router table
for the first time. This is a rockler top, PC router,
"basic" router base always on the table (no handles or other
unneeded stuff). The router base is mounted to an aluminum
plate that sits in the table top. I have a speed control
mounted on the front of the legs (home-build) and the router
gets plugged into that. The speed control has three
positions: speed controlled, router off, and full speed.
Note that the off position is in the middle--it is not easy
to quickly find.
As I said, for the first time. I did not know the easy
way. I went to change the blade/bit by reaching under and
pulling the motor down. WRONG!!! I accidently hit the
speed control switch, the router turned on, and did a real
grab of my shirt. Pulled it in, ripping all the buttons of
the front (they resisted...). I was lucky. I managed to
hold the router away from my skin (if not my shirt and
undershirt) while unpluging it from the speed control. As I
said, a warning. I'm lucky that I got one, and I don't
expect Murphy will ever give me another.
The correct way (which I swear to always use in the
future) is to lift it up from below, so the plate rises with
it. At least the tight electrical cord will remind me to
unplug it...
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 6:15 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: A warning received.
On my router table I mounted a double electrical box containing an on-off
switch and a duplex outlet. I plug the router into the outlet and use
thswitch to turn on/off so that I don't have to reach under at all to find
an elusive switch.
Of course, to do this, you have to leave the router's on/off switchlocked
"on" --- this can become a danger when you remove the router from the router
table to use free-hand, but forget to release the lock!! It seems hard to
solve all danger problems simultaneously.
Bob
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 3:49 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: RE: A warning received.
I just recently bought a sliding compound miter
(DW708) saw and had a near miss yesterday.
I made some modifications to the boat house by adding
some extra walking area and was trimming some
treated 2X6 for decking. The last cut (wouldn't you
know it) was a piece about 5 in. long and I needed
to trim 1 in. off.
I pulled the saw toward me started it and made the
downward swing and started forward. Just as the
blade made contact with the piece all hell broke loose.
The board apparently had split along the grain at
aprox. 45 deg. It separated and stuck to the blade
riding up over the rear gaurds and into the dust collector
bracket. In doing so, it warped the blade and removed
a small peice of metal from the blade cover.
I was braced and was not pulled in, but it gave me a
rude awakening.
>> If you cut off a finger, count till 9 before screaming
>> Josef
From: Ray Berry [rb at ipw.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 2:53 PM
To: David
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: achin' bones
At 22:12 08/01/99 , David wrote:
>Hello all,
>I do a lot of woodworking during the winter in my garage, with bare
>bones heating. At age 60, the concrete floor gets to my leg joints and
>lower back. Any suggestions on what to put on the floor or any kind of
>footwear to use to keep the aches and pains at a minimum? Thanks in
>advance for your help
>Dave
>
>
>
Forget the underfloor heating.
Take the time, three times a day to breathe deeply. That is one minute in,
four minutes held and two minutes exhaled. Then in addition to your usual
diet, eat water based natural products like 80 percent vegetables - raw and
roots and bean sprouts. Do this for a month and then reply. Not only will
you find your woodworking no problem at all, but you will have a hell of a
lot more energy.
The breathing stuff should be for ten minutes three times a day. Enjoy a
steak or chop too, my regime ain't weird, it just works. Just make your
meat 30 percent and the rest as above.
You will then find you have incredible energy and the old bones will be
just a memory.
Laugh if you must.
Try it and see it works. Then give me a bad time if it don't.
Ray
Ray Berry
http://www.ipw.com
------------------
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him
absolutely no good.
Ann Landers
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 2:58 PM
To: seahawk at mediaone.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: achin' bones
I have a concrete floor too, and it is heck on the tools when you drop 'em.
The next floor I have will be of the wooden variety. Probably southern
yellow pine, tongue-n-groove.
Gary Yarrow sent me a web site to look at the other day for another reason,
but on the site, the guy had made a raised wooden platform to set his bench
on. Good idea, I thought.
http://www.mindspring.com/~bobkey is the site. Its a nice site to look at anyway.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: Paul W. Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 1:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Adhesive Advice
Hi All,
I'm hoping someone can offer an explanation. I just completed (I
thought) making five 6" x 8" trivets out of red oak and ceramic tile.
They turned out very nice, until I set the tile in the adhesive. The oak
base bowed upward causing a crown and are now useless.
I took care to only stain and seal the exposed areas, leaving raw wood
for the bonding properties of the tile adhesive. I had no idea the out
gassing from the adhesive would react so violently with the wood.
Has anyone had this experience, and if so, what procedure did you use?
My instinct is to make them again but this time, seal the tile area as
well.
Thanks
--
Paul W. Abelquist
78 Rosewood Road
Rocky Point, NY 11778
Tel.: 516. 821. 5574
Fax: 516. 821. 3392
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 5:31 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Adhesive Advice
Hi Paul
Most likely the moisture from the adhesive caused the Oak to swell.
You may find that after a few days the moisture from the adhesive
will have evaporated and the trivets will flatten. I would put some
weight on the trivets while I hoped for the moisture to evaporate.
If you choose to do the project again I would suggest an adhesive
that doesn't contain water. Because the Oak and ceramic tile will
expand and contract differently with temperature and moisture, you
need a flexible adhesive. Silicon caulk would make a good choice.
The high temp caulk/adhesive, like you could get at an auto supply
store, would work well for a trivet. Apply finish (if it is a film
finish like lacquer, poly or varnish) before the tile is set to make
the Oak more stable. Some trivets I have seen have the ceramic tile
inset into the Oak. If yours is this style then be sure the tile
doesn't fit tightly in the Oak for the obvious reasons.
Thanks
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 5:14 AM
To: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Adhesive Advice
Paul,
Sure I'd make them again, as the warp will never really straighten out
flat again, only flatter. But this time use an adheseive that does not
contain moisture, which was the whole problem and not out-gassing.
(out-gassing will form tiny bubbles or pin holes on the surface) The
problem also was not in your staining and sealing efforts nor what you
didn't stain and seal.
As for what adheseve, I'd use a one or two part Epoxy or a Tile cement.
Complete coverage of the tile is not necessary.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Adhesive Advice
I use construction adhesive, and silicon to grout.
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 8:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Adventure Time With Smitty
I'm sure the old-timers on this list will recall those bowling alley
sections I was selling as workbench tops....what was it....2 full years
ago? Well, I thought I'd let you know what's about to happen tomorrow.
You see, Smitty was one of the firsts to get one but it's been sitting on
top of saw horses in a makeshift workbench capacity ever since he picked it
up. Anyway he's finally decided it's time to work on his workbench, and
guess what? It's his turn to host! Remember the last time we were at his
place? The air filter system? What a hoot!
Le-see, I gotta 'member to bring absorbent towels to control the mirth,
beer, and.....say, Moose 'n Ron you're both close enough, come on over, we
need a control group, Smitty and me makes up the experimental group :)
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Scott Rohan-Smith [wdworkr at marsweb.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 10:55 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Adventure Time With Smitty
> >Keith, Oh Keeper of Faith for the Proper Wearing and Displaying of an
> >Official Galoot Hat, I implore you, hear my concern.
>
> (Insert deeeeeeeep voice) Speak my son...
>
> >I have to know because in a few moments I'll be leaving the house to head
> >for Smitty's. But first, I need some clarification on THE hat. For what
> >we're getting ready to do, is it within the guidelines to wear the hat down
> >there or is it sacrilege?
>
> The wearage of THE hat is optional in your case.
Joe did wear his Galoot hat. It's a fine and beautiful hat. I get a little
nervous for him though; you see he has pretty strong Norm tendencies and I
wouldn't want him upsetting the Neander Gods. He let me try on THE hat and my
skin was burned and my hair started falling out (oh, I guess my hair was already
falling out).
> I'm not sure I've seen a post from you or Smitty since you got
> together. What was the outcome? Where there survivors? When are ya
> gonna update us with your ribald tales?
>
> Signed,
>
> Curious in Swissconsin
This encounter didn't have the excitement of the "Air Filter Gathering" but it
was a fine, entertaining and educational meeting all in all. A good time was had
by all and plans are in the works for the next edition of "Woodworking in
Western Montana" (Where've I seen that before?)
It all started when Mrs. Smitty mentioned that there was an open house at a home
a couple of blocks away that had just been fully restored. As the boys arrived
in the refurbished domicile they were greeted by a man in a suit that looked
like your freindly neighborhood undertaker. Upon interrogation of this
"undertaker" it turns out he is the owner of the dwelling and he had done a lot
of the work himself. (We applauded his hard work as the kind souls we are) Joe
noticed this gentleman spoke with a slight accent and asked where he was from.
"Mass." was the reply, "Boston area". So Joe says to him, he says, "So you ever
work with Nahm?" And the guy very casually replies "Yeah, once a long time ago."
At this point Smitty and Joe put on their "Don't look stupid or surprised" faces
and continued with the inquisition. Turns out he worked on the Newton house
which aired - what'd he say - in like 1980 or there abouts. He mentioned Nahm's
social skills - or lack there of - and the Big Bobby V and his self promoting
attitude and he mentioned how the head guy of the production, Russell Morash
,would stiff the coffee boy for a measley 30 cents for a cup of Joe! everyday!
So it's back to the shop and lets get serious here. I told you guys last week
that I wasn't ready and I meant it. I had a few pictures, mental and physical,
and a few pieces of poplar purchased the previous day, but that was about it.
Joe brought along, as a present, 2 pieces of maple (approx. 10 bd. ft.). They
are beautiful pieces, completely clear, nice grain, a full 1" thick. They will
be used for the front and end vises of the workbench. Thanks Joe, I love ya man.
When 2 brilliant minds come togther watch out. In no time a plan was devised and
chips were flying. I think spreading the glue by hand was the only non-power
tool used that day. We were able to get the 2 end frames built and glued before
dinner. After dinner it was back to the shop to install the spreaders to
complete the base assembly. The overall length of the base is almost 6 feet -
Smitty's clamps are 4 feet - now what? Ummm? Joe has some good ideas. Smitty
says Nahh, let's do it this way! Let's stand it on end and put some weights on
it to provide the clamping force! Yeah that'll work real gud! Joe (he must not
be keeping up with Smitty in the beer-drinking end of this deal or he'd see what
a bright idea this is) has some doubts, but being the gracious guest, he
succumbs to my incessant ravings. One end piece is laid down, glue is applied,
spreaders attached, more glue to the next end frame, end frame put in place,
board laid on top and 3 squares of shingles (intended for the garden shed roof)
placed on top of it all! A few cross braces to hold it all square and Voila, a
stout base frame for a bowling-alley-topped workbench is born!
At this point Joe had had about all the ww excitement he could stand for one day
(I think he was just trying to get outa the shop before the whole thing fell
over).
Monday night I removed the "clamps" and laid the frame down on it's feet.
Everything is square, tight and solid. I installed a couple more cross pieces
between the top spreaders for added support to the top and put in some corner
blocks for added strength and a place to fasten the top to the base. Tuesday
night I put the top on the base and guess what - I have a workbench! Future
projects will bring cabinets and drawers to the workbench in addition to the
vises made from Joe's maple.
This is a tool that is going to be so nice to have. I've worked off of a piece
of plywood thrown on top of saw horses for too long. And this tool will be
especially appreciated by me because it's something built from freindship and
the kind of camaraderie that woodworking brings out. Thanks Joe, I couldn't have
done it without you (I would've never gotten those shingles up on top of the
legs!).
Smitty aka Scott Rohan-Smith
Missoula, Montana
http://people.montana.com/~wdworkr
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 5:26 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Air Cleaner Hint
Putting a good dust collector to use has helped me achieve a big reduction
in shop dust, but I would like to do better.
It seems that for a long time, JDS was the primary supplier of home shop
type air cleaners. I really don't want to invest my time in building this
particular item myself .... too many other projects waiting in the wings.
Recently I've seen units which look very similar to the JDS being sold under
the Delta and now Ridgid (Home Depot/Emerson) brands. Both the Delta and
the Ridgid say "Made In Canada", so I'm wondering if they aren't essentially
the same product.
How noisy are these beasts?
I have a high ceiling in the shop and am thinking of using bungee cords to
mount the air cleaner in order to minimize the transmission of vibration
from the air cleaner into the structure of the room.
Does anyone have specific experience good or bad with a particular make
and/or model?
TIA, John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 6:10 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Air Cleaner Hint
John,
Of course they run off the same principle. No doubt newer items will
come along in time that will "improve" the cleaning of the air.
I'd be skeptical with using a free to swing suspension system but have
no known reason. These systems are designed to be quiet, and balancing
of the moving parts (motor and fan) has to be a part of that
engineering. Certainly some are better than others.
You can check it out by setting it on a surface and start it up. If it
hits the floor, take it back. Sounds like a good scientific method to
me... .
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 6:21 AM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Air Cleaner Hint
John
Last year one of the members of our WW club gave a talk on dust
control. He researched the filters and blowers and built his own
before them became commonly available. This are just furnace blowers
and high performance filters.
Just check the CFM of the system and the filter specs.
BUT, he did not recommend hanging them from the ceiling.
He mounted his near the floor on one side of the shop with the
exhaust vertical. This he ducted to a ceiling joist and used that as
a duct. He used perf board and the bottom of the joist so that it formed
the outlet. He spaced the largest outlet over the top of the TS. He
indicated that after he did this he did not get any dust in the face
and the circular motion of the air did a better job of cleaning the
air than one that just circulates the air at the top of the shop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
By the Sunny Shores of Lake Tapawingo.
(I will let every one try to figure out where that is for a while <G>)
billh at tfs.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 8:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Air Cleaner Hint
Of all the units I've seen the JDS is the only one that freely lists
the CFM it pulls. The rep at the Atlanta show made a big deal about
their CFM rating reflecting the filters in place whereas he'd seen
others who'd shown the ratings without filters. It was quiet too.
I'm gonna weigh in with a thought that instead of a ceiling unit what
about making it a part of a down draft sanding bench?
http://www.duststorm.com/
With it being inside a bench it would be even quieter than out in the
open. Essentially it would work the same when you wanted to pick up
airborne particulates.
Keith Bohn
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Air Cleaner Hint
I made an air cleaner from Joe John's plans and a free used squirrel cage
fan and motor donated by my HVAC company. I don't know any of the folks
personally, and have called them only twice in three years. Yet, they were
most gracious and said, we just tossed a bunch, but we'll call you when we
get some more. Two weeks later they called and said come and get it. Nice
guys!
Anyway, my stroke of genius (for me, anyway) was to add a "delayed off"
switch like those hotels use on their bathroom heat lamps. When I leave
the shop, I can set it for 30 minutes to catch the dust created just before
I leave. And, I don't have to ask my over-filled, aged mind to remember
to shut it off or ask my arthritic knees to take the stairs again.
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Devins [mdev at planet.eon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:56 AM
To: Bill Hartmann
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Air Compressor
Major snip
>
>How the problem is that you are putting "months" of wear on the
>motor/pump in a few hours.
>
>BILL:
Dust is the biggest problem for machinery. Check the air intake for the
compressor. Best is a dust free pick up or as close as you can get to that.
About a hundred years ago when I had to work for a living, we had a shop
compressor with intake air coming from outside and above the building. Our
compressor ran all day long every day as it was the power source for all
techs and much equipment. Had no problems.
Hope this is of help to you.
Allan Devins
Edmonton, AB. Canada.
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 11:09 AM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: Air compressor
There is a slight hiss when the compressor shuts off, but other than that, none. As I mentioned earlier, I have no problems now that I've gone to 240V.
Thanks for your input.
-Steve
>Is your system using an unloader valve ? the tell is a
>lengthy hiss as it
>bleeds-off the compressed air that didn't make it into the
>tank. If this last
>shot of air remained atop the piston, starting up with an
>existing load in the
>cylinder could be your problem.
>
>--
>Roger
>Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:45 PM
To: Warell at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Air Compressor
Warell at aol.com wrote:
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the line of Black Max Powermatic
I personally would stay away from all oiless compressors regardless of
brand. They are loud and are not meant to be heavily worked.
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Duane Ellis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: air filter - not dust collector
Try Wal-Mart.That's where I get the filters for the inlet air to my
finishing room and the filters for my dust filters.The have all sizes
in pleated or the plain fiberglass.You can also go to the lumberyard
or HVAC place and get a green filter cut to length from a roll in
various widths.I use this in one of my dust filters and it works well.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: John Murphy [cjmurphy at golden.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 5:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: air filter - not dust collector
Hi duane
What i use for filter in my home built system is quilt batting. I talked
with a felt manufacturer, and he recommended it as a cheap alternative. It
works great, its cheap, and i get alot of filters for $5.00
John
From: CDWeinke at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 2:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: air filter - not dust collector
In a message dated 11/5/98 7:30:37 PM Central Standard Time,
cjmurphy at golden.net writes:
> What i use for filter in my home built system is quilt batting. I talked
> with a felt manufacturer, and he recommended it as a cheap alternative.
What a great idea... but how do you mount it, or fit it into a frame? Until I
can get around to putting together an air filter system, I currently use a box
fan with a 20x20 furnace filter taped to the inlet side to help clean the dust
out of the air, and in the summer I run a window AC unit, which, even with a
funace filter taped to the front gets terribly clogged up each day. Quilt
batting would be much more efficent in cleaning.
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 7:34 PM
To: Danny E. Cook; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Air Filtration, My Turn
"Danny E. Cook" wrote:
>
> Three speed, direct drive squirrel cage just begging to be turned into an
> air filtration system for the basement shop. Any websites out there dealing
> with this type of endeavor? Anyone willing to share any insights (for the
> umpteenth time)?
> AtDhVaAnNkCsE
Danny,
These aren't exactly what you are looking for, but they might help:
http://www.wwwoodcarver.com/WWWEzine/Vol2Issue1/DustCollection/DustCollection.html
Several "rigups" for dust collection and a downdraft sanding table
http://www.4lakes.com/bhww/tips.htm Another downdraft sanding table
If you construct your table similar to the one just above you should be able to
use it for sanding and fine dust collecting. I made one similar, but used 1/4"
tempered pegboard for the top. I chamfered the holes on the table top so that
the dust would glow onto the filter without having to fight the friction of a
vertical sided hole (does that seem clear?). I have furnace filters (pleated)
just below the table tops and one where the air is discharged. It works well.
Sorry, I don't have more. I got the plans I loosely followed from Wood,
WoodSmith or ShopNotes. I've slept several times since I made mine so I'm
clueless as to which one it was. I put some casters on the bottom of mine so
that I more it around the shop.
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:40 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Air Nails Not = To Common Nails
To all;
It may be of interest to some of you that it takes more air nails than
common nails to get the required strength in shear in house
construction. The reason is the air nail is a smaller gauge than the
same length common nail.
On one of our jobs that is under construction now the spacing has to be
decreased to 88% of the spacing in the Building Code to work.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:11 AM
To: Trevor Stott; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Airy EZ2
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:52:12 -0500, Trevor Stott wrote:
>Does anyone have the Airy (sp) EZ-2 brad nailer/stapler? I'm thinking of
>buying the porter cable 18 gauge brad nailer but the EZ-2 would save me some
>money if their good.
I have not even seen it, but someone told me that it had a big anvil
needed to drive the staples and it would leave a mark with driving
the brads.
You might check on this first.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Trevor Stott [stott at dathomir.sheridanc.on.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:52 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Airy EZ2
Does anyone have the Airy (sp) EZ-2 brad nailer/stapler? I'm thinking of
buying the porter cable 18 gauge brad nailer but the EZ-2 would save me some
money if their good.
Thanks in advance!
Trevor.
From: Daniel A. Segel [Daniel.Segel at MCI.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 7:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Alcohol vs water based stains
I know water-based stains raise the grain while alcohol-based stains do
not, but what other differences are there? Why would I want to use a
water-based stain given that it would require extra work (pre-wetting and
sanding down)? Is the only advantage that it's safer and easier to mix a
batch up?
Thanks,
Daniel
--
Daniel A. Segel
MCI Worldcom
HR Data Administration
Phone: 303-390-6579; Vnet: 636-6579; Pager: 888-783-5951
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 8:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Alcohol vs water based stains
Actually Daniel, Alcohol stains do in fact raise the grain. They are
commonly referred to as Non-grain Raising (NGR) because they do not
raise the grain as *much*.
Other differences are that Alcohol stains (dyes) are very fast drying
permitting application and topcoating within minutes. (Some minutes are
longer than others) Also as you mentioned, safety is a prime factor.
Alcohol dyes (NGR) usually are Aniline which is poisonous thru skin
absorbtion or inhalation.
Water soluble powdered dyes can be more difficult to apply. These dyes
must be application controlled in some manner to avoid streaking or
uneven color absorbtion.
The largest objection to alcohol dyes is the amount of labor (time)
involved. Conversely, the clarity of color and penetration into the wood
is the best there is. Also, these dyes are the most color-fast.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 2:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Alcohol vs water based stains
I seem to recall reading that water base stains have a greater
resistance to fading than alcohol or oil.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 6:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Daniel A. Segel
Subject: Re: Alcohol vs water based stains
In addition to the various other reasons given, by having oil based, water
based, and alcohol based stains available, it is possible to select a stain
with a different solvent/thinner then what ever finish you are using.
Obviously a real plus.
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Aliphatic Glue
Ray,
Many of the experts call PVAs and yellow "glues" adhesive to differentiate the
"natural" glues from the synthetic adhesives. The natural glues being "real"
hide glue, casein glues (from sour milk and lime) and maybe a couple more which
I am not aware of or can't think of.
The synthetic glues are made made through chemical processes and include white
(PVA) and yellow (Aliphatic) and a whole herd of others. (grin) The PVA
adhesives are said to have elasticity or "cold-flow". According to Patrick
Spielman in Gluing and Clamping, A Woodworker's Handbook ISBN 0-8069-6274-7,
cold-flow means the glue "sort of stretches along with the individual members of
the joint as they shrink and swell due to day-to-day and season to season
changes in the moisture content of the wood." Spielman goes on to say that the
glue should not be used where the joint is highly "stressed", but he has used it
on all types of furniture joints (normal) for more than a quarter of a century.
About yellow adhesives, Spielman says they have a greater resistance to water
and "run" less than white adhesives. He states that the yellow adhesives set
much faster than the white adhesives, but total cure takes longer. He says that
some white and some yellow adhesives are affected by freezing and some of each
are NOT so affected. He goes on to say that the adhesive, the material and room
temperature should be well above freezing.
The book was written before Titebond II and similar adhesives (said to be water
resistant) came on the market. All that Spielman has said above coincides with
my experience with both glues, especially as to set time. I've found Titebond
II to have a very short open time, but I've also found it to be a little easier
to sand and it doesn't seem to "clog" the sandpaper to the extent white and
regular yellow adhesives do. If your shop is cold most of the time, I'd
recommend storing the adhesive where it is warm and to try to bring the material
and gluing location "well above" freezing before using any of the adhesives. If
you are using yellow adhesive and notice that it is turning white soon after you
apply it, then it is likely too cold to get an assembled joint which will
withstand the stresses to which it will be subjected.
You'll notice that I have used the word "adhesive" in an attempt to be
"scientifically" correct. Personally, I think such use is an extreme waste of
the alphabet and who's to say that letters of the alphabet will not someday be
another endangered species. Correct or not, I prefer to use glue as the
preferred choice. Had I done so, I would have saved some little letters AND
some keystrokes.
By the way, I believe most major glue manufacturers, Elmers, Jowat and others
manufacture a variety of white and yellow glue formulations.
Here's a UK site that might be of interest to you:
http://www.trendm.co.uk/
Hope this helps.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Ray Berry wrote:
>
> I think I can get Titebond and Titebond 2 here, I saw it in a catalogue
> someplace. Now I use PVA both normal and weatherproof, the biggest drawback
> is that it is destroyed if I leave it in the workshop during a frost. Does
> this apply to yellow glue, and how does yellow glue and white glue (PVA)
> compare in use for general woodworking/cabinetmaking.
>
> Sorry for the stupid questions but I have no experience of yellow glue here
> in UK.
>
> Ray
>
> At 11:14 03/11/98 -0600, Mark Ebert wrote:
> >Regarding Aliphatic glue, it is also commonly called yellow glue. The most
> >common brand name is Titebond and Titebond II. Gorilla glue is not
> >aliphatic, it is a polyeurathane glue which is waterproof. Yellow glue can
> >be found in most hardware stores.
> >
> >Mark Ebert
> >Design Concepts
> >mebert at enteract.com
> >
> >On Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:21 AM, Ray Berry
> >[SMTP:entrepreneur at enterprise.net] wrote:
> >> I,m not sure, but isn't Gorrilla glue this type?
> >>
> >> Ray
> >>
> >> At 09:45 03/11/98 -0500, Luis Fernando Ochoa Restrepo wrote:
> >> >** For Your Eyes Only **
> >> >
> >> >I am assembling a Viol from a kit and the instructions recommend to use
> >an
> >> ALIPHATIC GLUE for gluing the back and front pieces..
> >> >
> >> >Does anyone know about a commercial brand name for such a glue, and
> >where
> >> to find it?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
--
From: JimStaley at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:39 PM
To: qxd at foto.infi.net; pjwarner at erols.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Aluminum and carbide
In a message dated 11/23/98 9:27:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
qxd at foto.infi.net writes:
> Buy or rent a metalcutting chop saw.
I disagree. I worked 35 years for the aluminum company of America and we
NEVER used a metalcutting chop saw. To saw any aluminum alloy product you
don't even need carbide, but you can use it.
From: Mike Hartman [hartech at easynet.on.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 7:38 PM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Aluminum and carbide
Paul Warner wrote:
>
> Will cutting aluminum with a carbide - tipped saw blade ruin the
> blade ??
>
> Thanks....
>
> Paul
Paul
A couple of considerations to keep in mind if you want to cut aluminum
on the table saw. First and foremost, it has to be cut with a saw blade
on either a table, chop or band saw, it cannot be cut with an abrasive
blade since the cutting action of the abrasive will melt the aluminum as
it would with plastic and make a mess of it.
For ideal cutting the blade should have a triple chip or flat top design
with either a negative or 0 degree cutting angle. The TCG top will
protect the blade since the design of the blade does not have any sharp
corners as on an alternate top bevel while the cutting angle provides a
less agressive cutting approach. Using an ATB style blade runs the risk
that you will damage the sharp outer corners of the blade. (There is
nothing more heart wrenching than seeing a Forrest WW11 with 20 or 30
teeth torn off.)
If you must use an ATB blade, pick one that your least fond of. The use
of a cutting wax such as Beeswax will also help in that it will grease
up the blade to ease it through the cut while controlling the heat. Just
a little extra cleanup after your done though.
Good luck
Mike
(P.S. The "hartech" stands for Hartech Grinding Services Inc.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 7:53 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Aluminum and carbide
Paul Warner wrote:
>
> Will cutting aluminum with a carbide - tipped saw blade ruin the
> blade ??
>
I've done this many times, but always with a blade that was recommended
by the maker for cutting both wood and non-ferrous metals. I was
nervous about it every time, but it always worked well and didn't damage
the blade. Regards,
Gerald
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 1:26 AM
To: hartech at easynet.on.ca
Cc: Paul Warner; The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Aluminum and carbide
Mike;
I assume from the note at the end of your post you are the owner of a
grinding service and from what I have discovered about cutting aluminum
on a table saw you are right on the money.
I have only cut aluminum to about 1/2" thick on my saw using a Freud
blade designated as a non ferrous blade. I use a liquid cutting fluid
meant for aluminum on the piece ahead of the cut.
I recut salvaged commercial window frameing ( about 1/8" wall) to make
aluminum angles etc. all the time with no problem.
> A couple of considerations to keep in mind if you want to cut aluminum
> on the table saw. First and foremost, it has to be cut with a saw blade
> on either a table, chop or band saw, it cannot be cut with an abrasive
> blade since the cutting action of the abrasive will melt the aluminum as
> it would with plastic and make a mess of it.
> For ideal cutting the blade should have a triple chip or flat top design
> with either a negative or 0 degree cutting angle. The TCG top will
> protect the blade since the design of the blade does not have any sharp
> corners as on an alternate top bevel while the cutting angle provides a
> less agressive cutting approach. Using an ATB style blade runs the risk
> that you will damage the sharp outer corners of the blade. (There is
> nothing more heart wrenching than seeing a Forrest WW11 with 20 or 30
> teeth torn off.)
> If you must use an ATB blade, pick one that your least fond of. The use
> of a cutting wax such as Beeswax will also help in that it will grease
> up the blade to ease it through the cut while controlling the heat. Just
> a little extra cleanup after your done though.
> Good luck
> Mike
> (P.S. The "hartech" stands for Hartech Grinding Services Inc.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: John T. Horner (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: American Woodworker Magazine Sold
-----Original Message-----
From: Duke of URLs <b2d at execpc.com>
<snip>
Keith said:
>I for one am hoping RD is mindful of not screwing up this magazine.>
<snip>
RD said:
> By integrating these two editorial teams, we will better leverage our
assets and gain a blockbuster home improvement franchise. >
John says:
Right there you have the evidence that RD doesn't plan to leave things
alone. Integration will mean that mostly RD people are put in charge,
which in turn may well send some of AW's best people packing off to other
pastures. RD is a business which is currently trying to execute a financial
turn-around.
Oh well, maybe Sloan and friends will start a new publication!
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: American Woodworker Magazine Sold
I started with American woodworker when it was a nice B&W "rag". It was a great
magazine then and I have grown to like the color version over the years. I've
had telephone conversations with a couple of the former staff and have grown to
admire and respect them. I've also been fortunate in having some of my
blathering published in the magazine and one "tips and techniques" book. My best
wishes go to the former staff and I'm sure there is a life after AW for each of
them.
What we don't know for sure is what was/is in the minds of the folks at RD, but
I'm sure they are seeking a profit as any business would. Whether they have
gone about doing so in a straight forward and ethical manner remains to be
seen. We also don't know who the new editor and associate editors will be; nor
do we know what expertise and practical knowledge they bring to the magazine.
We may be surprised to learn that at least one of the folks who has posted
articles to TheOak website is on board as an associate editor. Before you ask,
it isn't me (I'M NOT WORTHY [grin]) and I was not given leave to say who it
might be. Sorry!
I've got a long time left on my subscription. If the magazine stays the course
or improves, I'll stick with it . . . if not I'll vote with my pocket book and
get a refund on what is left of my subscription period.
All the guessing and supposition serves to let us vent, but without knowing more
details it is just guessing and supposition.
Please do not take this as a barb or criticism of anyone, it is just my dos
centavos.
Chuck
Ken Martin wrote:
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 4:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Ammonia Fuming Process/1800's techniques
>Can anyone tell me about "Ammonia Fuming" as a wood coloring process?
Here are some Web links you may want to look at.
Article on fuming with ammonia:
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/fuming/1.htm
Articles on staining to match fumed finishes:
http://www.wwforum.com/ptools/faqs_articles/missionoak.html
http://www.teleport.com:80/~hippo1/images/mission/oakstain.htm
Keith Bohn
From: DMc89916 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 7:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: DMc89916 at aol.com
Subject: AMT Address
Paul:
Sorry for the delay but my CMOS battery expired and shut down my computer just
as I was answering your E-Mail, and naturally I lost your E-Mail as well, so
I'm answering you in the blind.
For anyone wanting AMT's address and phone#:
They have agreed to carry parts for their equipment for 10 years.
AMT (American Machine & Tool Company)
400Spring Street
Royersford, PA 19468-2519
1-800-435-8665
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 1:46 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: An interesting URL
Greetings to all,
In my quest for information about the Russian Olive I
received an informative email from Associate Professor Dr.
Tom Gorman at the University of Idaho. He sent me the URL
for a web site I would like to share.
http://blackmtn-north.com
I am not sure if he is a member of this list, but I bet he
knows something about the medium we all work in. I have
sent him an email to ask for permission to post his snail
mail address, phone numbers, and email address to the list.
(Awaiting his reply)
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 5:33 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: An x-rated wood identification
I hope I am not tossed off the list for this, but this was kind of cute,
sent to me by an old army buddy when he learned that I had taken up
woodworking and salvaging windfall trees for lumber, with attendant
difficulties in identifying the trees:
--------------------forwarded message --------------------------------
> Two tall trees are growing in the woods. A small tree begins to grow
> between them. One tree says to the other: "Is that a son of a beech
> or a son of a birch?"
>
> The other says he cannot tell. Just then a woodpecker lands in the
> sappling. The tall tree says "Woodpecker, you are a tree expert. Can
> you tell if that is a son of a beech or a son of a birch?"
>
> The woodpecker takes a taste of the small tree. He replies: "It is
> neither a son of a beech nor a son of a birch. That, my friends, is
> the best piece of ash I have ever put my pecker in."
--------- End forwarded message ----------
Glen, in Minneapolis, where Zdenek and I salvaged an even dozen 100 inch
long logs of white oak and spruce last weekend and WoodMizered up 1400 bf
of ash (g) last month.
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 6:33 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: And now for something completely different...
Kip Yeager sends:
>Walter "Kip" Mathau here :-)) Now where were we? Oh yes, woodworking!!
>
>Thanks,
>Kip :-)
Well all right then!
In my ongoing quest to make life as difficult for myself as possible, I
would like to turn a piece of Lignum Vitae. I'm thinking maybe a
nice little flare-sided bowl, about eight inches diameter by three
inches deep. (Why? Actually, I don't quite know why I want to do
this, just that I do.) I figure it will be a good place to throw all the
weird little stuff I keep by my drum scanner at the place I go to
earn enough money to buy wood and cat food. Paper clips,
razor blades, my loupe, scissors, those sorts of things scanner
operators always need and always lose tons of.
Questions follow:
1. I know they sell this stuff by the pound. How much wood do you
actually get in a pound? (Areal measurements only--"sixteen
ounces" I've already figured out.)
2. I've heard rumor that one should practice before turning
Lignum Vitae by chucking-up something a bit softer, like
cast iron. I kinda doubt that the wood is actually that hard,
but just how bad is turning this stuff?
3. Who that sells wood via the mails has good Lignum Vitae?
I'll not say that cost is no object, but there's not going to be much
wood in this project so the importance of the lowest cost is
diminished a little.
4. On health issues: Besides kicking the cats out of the shop
(especially the one that sleeps on the headstock while the
lathe is running), ensuring that the blank is attached very well
to the faceplate so it doesn't come off and whack me in the
head, and donning the Israeli gas mask I wear while using
polyurethane (I got it at the US Cavalry store in town), what
else should I do to keep this wood from killing me or anything
else in the house?
Thanks in advance.
--jmowreader
"I had some great tires this year. But I don't want to get
into that right now..."
--Jeff Gordon, at the 1998 Winston Cup Banquet
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 7:50 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: And now for something completely different...
I'm not a turner, so I can't answer your questions, but I can give you a
clue. Lignum Vitae has been used for shaft bearings on our nuclear
submarines. I've been away from the business for several years, so I
don't know if the latest ones still use it. Regards,
Gerald
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 10:24 AM
To: Jim Mowreader; Woodworking
Subject: RE: And now for something completely different...
Jim wrote
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Mowreader [mailto:qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: 05 December 1998 02:33
To: Woodworking
Subject: And now for something completely different...
In my ongoing quest to make life as difficult for myself as possible, I
would like to turn a piece of Lignum Vitae.
Lignum Vitae. Well. Yes.. OK. Um. Ha.
Jim there are various harnesses of wood as you know.
Soft, Fairly hard. Hard. Very hard. Bloody hard, %$&*@ hard. and then
there is Lignum Vitae.
I have tried to turn it on three occasions. The first time I just gave up
and failed.
The second time I did succeed but it took a long time.
The third I am still working on and have been on and off for the past six
months or so. I keep on going back to this piece when I really feel like
loosing my temper and using bad language.
The first time I tried to turn that wood I mounted a piece on the lathe and
started it up. Then I put a 5/8in HSS Deep fluted gouge that I had freshly
sharpened to it . Five seconds later I had a very blunt 5/8in HSS Deep
fluted gouge.
I resharpened and tried again. Same result. I gave up.
The second time, I first hit it with a 11/2in roughing gouge and after about
six resharpens did manage to get the piece round. Then I wanted to hollow
out the inside of the bowl I was trying to make. I once again tried a gouge
but lost the edge in seconds. I then tried a large round nosed scraper
which I had sharpened and got a good burr on the edge. This worked, but by
the time I had got the bowl hollowed out I had resharpened the tool about
thirty times and had reduced the length of it by about 3/4 of an inch.
As Gerald said, Lignum Vitae was used for bearings on Subs and Ships. It
was also used for break linings on Rolls Royce cars.
What puzzles me is that some very fine 15th and 16th century goblets and
bowls were made from Lignum Vitae and still exist to this day. They did not
have powered lathes or HSS tools in those days. How did they do it?
A good source of this wood can occasionally be found at Yard sales and Boot
sales in the shape of odd Greens Bowls.
Lignum Vitae is an oily wood. Doesn't sand very well and is hard to finish.
Paul
UK
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 7:36 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: RE: And now for something completely different...
Here's a couple links to check out:
http://www.maritime.org/pamphist.shtml (especially the fourth paragraph)
http://www.woodex-meco.com/woodhome.htm
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
============================================
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Angle questions
Unworthy of even a small gloat is my latest purchase from QVC - a multi
sharp attachment which fixes onto a power drill and runs a smallish
Aluminium Oxide stone plus a second attachment that sharpens drill bits.
All in one package.
Included is a jig for sharpening chisels and plane blades on the wetstone
part.
Not that I usually buy tools from QVC but swmbo noticed it and mentioned
about how her knives and scissors needed sharpening, so not being one to
miss an opportunity.....
Anyhow, the wetstone attachment seems to work really well and you can set
up various angles on the jig to sharpen (grind) to from 25 degrees to 45
degrees in 5 degree stages.
Now I have a lot of old chisels and a couple of plane blades to do I was
wondering about what people feel are the best angles to sharpen chisels and
plane blades to. I have seen 25 deg and 30 deg mentioned in books also
stuff about first and secondary angles which some say are necessary and
some not.
I wonder what angles you guys feel are the best for chisels and planes.
Does it matter what they are used for? Does a chisel used for doevetails
work better at one angle than one for mortices for example. Are two angles
- primary and secondary worth doing?
Help
Ray
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 7:32 AM
To: Ben Fink; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Aniline Dyes
Howdy Ben
Welcome back and glad to hear you are feeling better.
You should have no problem with the dye and the finish as long as the
solvent/thinners of the two are not the same. But, as far as spreading goes
you will have a problem. Dyes soak into the wood cells to color it which
means it will spread out from the initial point of contact much like ink on
blotting paper or trying to do the crossword puzzle in the paper with a
felt maker. Stains, if you are real careful and practice a lot MAY work, but
I'm doubtful on that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Fink <benfink at redrose.net>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, September 11, 1998 11:09 PM
Subject: Aniline Dyes
>Now for the wood part. I have a project in the planing stage that I
>thought I would use aniline dye to color spots on a piece of wood.
>The dye is disolved in water. Can anyone tell me if this will work
>if I top that off with "tung Oil" finish. Will the aniline die spread
>or bleed into undyed areas of the board?
>
>Ben Fink AKA benfink at redrose.net
Take Care
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 8:08 AM
To: Mike G.
Cc: Ben Fink; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Aniline Dyes
Mike G. wrote: Would'nt a light coat of sanding sealer help with the stain starring ? There are both water based and solvent based sanding sealers.
Howdy Ben
Welcome back and glad to hear you are feeling better.
You should have no problem with the dye and the finish as long as the
solvent/thinners of the two are not the same. But, as far as spreading goes
you will have a problem. Dyes soak into the wood cells to color it which
means it will spread out from the initial point of contact much like ink on
blotting paper or trying to do the crossword puzzle in the paper with a
felt maker. Stains, if you are real careful and practice a lot MAY work, but
I'm doubtful on that.
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 1:23 PM
To: wood working
Subject: Antidust Respireators.
I have been thinking of getting Father Christmas (SWMBO) to give me one of
those battery powered dust masks for Christmas.
One available over here is The Racal Dust Mask.
Does anybody on the list use one or one similar?.
Paul
UK
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 2:29 PM
To: 'Paul Bonner'; 'wood working'
Subject: RE: Antidust Respireators.
Paul,
I have the top of the line Racal.
The one with the battery and blower worn on a belt pack with a hose up your
back.
The mask itself is much lighter this way.
The battery is good for 8 to 10 hours use per charge and it works well.
Only bad thing about it is if you accidently "pass gas" while wearing it!!
I think I paid about $350 dollars US for it.
John
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 3:26 PM
To: pbonner at enterprise.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Antidust Respireators.
Paul;
I have one that I bought to use when taking all the paint off my
house (~30% lead) and it works great. I found, however, that I tended
to use it a lot in the shop also, especially when I am doing lots of
routing or sanding. I really like mine, and think it was a good
purchase.
Gary
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Antidust Respireators.
There is a current discussion of the Racal and Dust Be Gone mask on
the woodturning newsgroup. To date there has not been on bad work
said about either options.
Of the systems by Racal the Airmate 3 looks to be the top of the line
and what you would want for use while finishing. The Power Visor is
in the $130 (U.S.) area and gets extremely high marks for use while
sanding, sawing and turning.
The Dust Be Gone is a surgical type mask and not air assisted. Again,
it gets high marks from the turners. Some use it in tandem with the
air assisted units.
For the Racal you may want to look at these sites. So far the best
U.S. price for the Power Visor is through Klingspor's
3M/Racal
http://www.racalhealth.com/
Racal Power Visor
http://www.racalhealth.com/powervisorhtm.htm
AirWare America
http://www.mid-web.com/airware/products.htm
Enviro Safety Products
http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/html/power_visor.html
Klingspor's Woodworking Shop
http://www.woodworkingshop.com/
Dust Be Gone
http://www.dustbeegone.com/
Keith Bohn
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:15 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Anyone have neat plans for RAS dust collection?
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> The more I use my RAS, the more I like it. Yesterday I needed to taper rip
> a 5" wide, 12" long board at 5 degrees. I don't know about other folks, but
> I find taper cuts of short boards very scary on the table saw. On the RAS I
> was able to do the rip in "crosscut" mode. Swing the arm, clamp the subject
> pieces to the table, and cut. Real easy, real safe.
>
> Anyway, it does make a lot of sawdust. I'm planning to rig up a dust
> collector from 1/4" ply. My thought is to just build a box with a 4"
> plumbing connector in it. If anyone has more detailed plans or direction I
> would be most grateful to hear about them.
>
John, it's nice to hear from someone else who likes the RAS. I
generally don't use a dust collector for mine when cutting wood, but I
made a very effective one that I use when cutting bricks with a diamond
blade. That puts a large quantity of very fine abrasive dust in the
air, and a collector is required.
I made mine from heavy sheet metal attached to a wooden base that mounts
on the saw frame behind the blade. It is basically a box 10" high x
7-1/2" wide x 6" deep, with one side open facing the blade. A 2-1/4"
hole in one side accepts the hose from my shop vac. I tapered the back
of the box to contour it a bit, but a square one should work well too.
My old Sears RAS has a rubber elbow on the blade guard that I have
adapted to my shop vac. I used it a lot when I used to rip with the
RAS, and it was reasonably effective. I didn't use it for cross
cutting, because the hose got in the way when sliding the saw on the
carriage rails. I seldom rip with the RAS since I got my TS and
bandsaw, so I haven't used it for several years. Good luck with your
collector. You'll be surprised by how well it works.
Gerald
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:36 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have neat plans for RAS dust collection?
Can't vouch for the content but I've heard rave reviews for Wally M.
Kunkel's (Mr. Sawdust) "How to Master the Radial Arm Saw".
http://www.maracorp.com/sawdust/index.html
It's not plans for a dust collection hood but related to the radio
alarm saw. Years ago I rented a video called "Radial-Arm-Saw Joinery"
by Curtis Erpelding. Very cool tape in my humble opinion. You'll
find your enthusiasm for the saw increasing after watching the tape.
You can get it at the following Web page.
http://discount-books.com/videos.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:22 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Auction Advice
Talk about your down right spooky stuff. After the Joe Johns/Keith
Bohn School of Auction Tips opens along comes this link I stumbled
across while noodleing around over at rec.crafts.woodturning. Must
have something to with Halloween. Anyway as I was saying this link
will take you to a page with some advice. It's a work in progress and
so far has 2 of the proposed 5 articles posted.
http://www.mermac.com/auction.html
It's geared towards buying metalworking tools but the reasoning is the
same.
Enjoy!
Keith Bohn
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: AW isn't dead just yet
Kip Yeager just signed me up to the mailing list this evening. Both Kip
and Chuck Ring are aware that I am now on staff with AW as an associate
editor.
I don't have all of the answers for you, but maybe I can thwart some of
the speculation. I have only been working for two days now, so try to be
gentle.
As someone pointed out, this was not a hostile takeover. Rodale sold the
magazine, and Home Services Publications (Reader's Digest) purchased it.
It was relocated to the Twin Cities in part because this is a strong
woodworking environment with companies like "Tools on Sale", The
woodworkers Store, The woodworker's Journal, Family Handyman, and a very
high density of wood and hardware distributors. This also leads to a
sharing of resources with other publications.
I don't know who, but some of the former staff was offered the
opportunity to remain on staff, and relocate. I have heard that there is
a desire to retain one of the contributing editors who will continue to
work long distance, as he did for AW in the past.
The quality of the information will not go down. I was brought on board
early, so I have not yet met the other editors due to arrive within the
month. Of the two that I have heard of, they bring in a combined
experience of over 40 years as professional furniture makers. I am a
professional cabinetmaker, Electrical Engineer, Published Author,
Industrial Hygienist, Waterquality Engineer, and Power distribution
consultant.
I will be working on project discussions, and I think I may also be
heading up tool reviews for a while. I am already working on the next
tool review for the first new issue. Just this evening, I was discussing
some ideas with Ken Collier for some new features which I know will be
popular.
I am not a spokesman of any sort, nor a politician. The only reason why
I am writing this is because I have been an active participant on the
internet forums for over three years. I personally have a lot of faith
in where the magazine is going to be headed. I would not have joined the
staff if I didn't.
Rick Christopherson
http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 7:36 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: RLA at the.usp.org
Subject: Re: AW, cleaned house
Howdy Keith, everyone
Sorry Keith, was going to stay out of this one and take a wait and see
attitude towards AW but can't help modifying the snipped statement below a
little further.
Having worked for AT&T for 25 years and watching what happened after the CEO
Charlie Brown died in 1985 and a bean counter took over I have to say that
even the stock holder returns are only a superficial factor in the way
corporations do business.
The one and only driving factor is the income of the CEO and board of
directors. As an example lets look at AT&T. Over the last 18 years, and
despite downward spiraling market share AT&T has been able to show a profit
for the stock holders and consequently a very comfortable income for the B
of D and CEO.
Now, the question is how do they manage that. Well, lets say they take over
a company Mmmmm, how about NCR. Now there is a one time charge off for this
Simultaneously we lay off, say, 100,000 people. At a low median of
$30,000.00 per person that comes out to 3 with NINE zeros after it. Take out
a couple of Mill for layo... ooops sorry, downsizing benefits and you have
not only cover losses due to diminishing market share but can show a nice
profit justifying nice raises and golden parachutes for the company
executives.
The following year you spin off a division or two, write them off the books,
and lay off another 100,000 and you get another nice profit dispite
continued diminishing market share.
Now, once you have the company, employees, and stock holders (though they
don't know it yet) raped you take your retirement. The beauty of the whole
thing is it takes no managerial skills nor any great effort to run a company
in this manner and do quite well for yourself. Of course you leave behind
you a company that has gone from world class to a struggling entity stripped
of all it's major strengths but you got your bucks so what the hell.
From: tlovelace at austin360.com
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:06 AM
To: Ron Devlin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: B.O.S.S. et. al.
I saw a Ryobi at Leows a couple of weeks for $100.00.
I read somewhere that these and similar priced osc. sanders use 2
different sized pulleys to force the oscillating motion.
Never did understand the mechanics , but also read that the mfgs
recommend return to a factory service site for any required belt change.
Note: FWW a few years back featured a great system that used a surplus
100 rpm motor for the up/down motion and a 1/5 to 3/4 hp 1725 motor that
provided the rotational power.
I built this system and have had no problems with it at all.
It used cylinders ranging from 3/4 to 3 inch diameters that just screw
down onto the 1/2 steel shaft that rotates and oscillates. If you are
interested, I will look up the issue. Can also provide copies of the
article.
Tom
Ron Devlin wrote:
> Ok, who out there can tell me who makes a spindel sander comprable to
> the BOSS in price and quality. I'm thinking about buying one sometime
> next year.
>
> Ron Devlin,
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Marty Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 6:32 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; D. Patrick O'Coin; Ontario.Canada at alpha.vaxxine.com
Cc: ocoin at vaxxine.com
Subject: Re: Baby crib plans
Congratulations!
As far as baby bed and crib plans, that depends on the style you
are after. I build the cradle and a crib from WOOD magazine
plans....
I'm sure the "duke" will chime in with some sites for you to check
out...
Marty
> Guess who's about to become a Grandfather? That explains the subject line.
> Actually, I'm looking for baby bed and crib plans, my idea is to
> incorporate both in one project. The material of choice will be Oak or
> Maple 5/4 stock, with dowelling used as spindles.
>
> anyone out there know where I can download this type of plan from? TIA
>
> PS. my return address is 'ocoin at vaxxine.com'
> D. Patrick O'Coin
> Fort Erie, Ontario
> Canada
> ocoin at vaxxine.com
>
From: D. Patrick O'Coin [Fort.Erie at alpha.vaxxine.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 6:12 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Baby crib plans
Guess who's about to become a Grandfather? That explains the subject line.
Actually, I'm looking for baby bed and crib plans, my idea is to
incorporate both in one project. The material of choice will be Oak or
Maple 5/4 stock, with dowelling used as spindles.
anyone out there know where I can download this type of plan from? TIA
PS. my return address is 'ocoin at vaxxine.com'
D. Patrick O'Coin
Fort Erie, Ontario
Canada
ocoin at vaxxine.com
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:46 PM
To: D. Patrick O'Coin; Ontario.Canada at alpha.vaxxine.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Baby crib plans
You might want to reconsider using Oak for juvinile furniture. Many
people (including myself) consider it to be too "heavy" and too
"serious" a wood in appearance. Oaks also are heavy in Tanin. Is Tanin
harmful if ingested? (we will soon find out)
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 6:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; D. Patrick O'Coin; Ontario.Canada at alpha.vaxxine.com
Subject: Re: Baby crib plans
Howdy Patrick
The latest of the Rockler (AKA The Woodworkers Store) catalog has plans for
sale for a 3 in 1 transitional bed plan that sounds like it will fit your
bill plus some. a tad. They also sell the hardware for it. . Plans run $15
US hardware is the same.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:23 PM
To: 'ocoin at vaxxine.com'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Baby crib plans
Hi Patrick,
I am inclined to agree with Don W. in the "serious"
character of oak. (Did I say that?.....the beer must have
gone bad.)
I feel that children's furniture should be quite light
hearted and bright. I like the look of unstained birch
under a clear finish for the kid's stuff, with a mix of
brightly painted (Yes, really painted.....) pieces to
further brighten up their spaces. I have admired some
pieces that employ a mix of clear finished parts with some
painted parts.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Tim Arheit [tarheit at wcoil.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 11:56 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Baby crib plans
At 11:17 AM 11/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>You did not say how the baby was lost but implyed that
>the child got through the bars (to fall?). Bars of the
>wrong spacing can trap a baby's head, and then a roll of the
>body can choke or damage the neck.
>
>Alec Milne wrote:
>>
>> Congrats.
>>
>> Be very careful about how close together the bars are. The closer the
>> better. A friend of mine lost a baby in a crib whose bars were to far
apart.
>>
Sorry such a long post, but it's not too big (10k) and it's very relevant to
the topic.
Maximum slat spacing 2 3/8"
Minimum rail height (above top of mattress) 26"
Maximum the corner posts can stick up above the top rail 1/8"
The crib we have (given to us by my wife's parents), doesn't
conform to these, and also breaks several of the other design
rules :(. Guess I've got a new project this winter (next little
one is due in June or so (Haven't got a date yet).....so anyone
have some plans? :)
-Tim
Crib safty FAQ follows:
Archive-name: misc-kids/crib-safety-faq
Last-modified: Wed Jan 25 23:48:39 EST 1995
Editor/Author: Chris Lewis, clewis at ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Comments-to: cribfaq at ferret.ocunix.on.ca
(automatic if you reply to this posting)
Copyright 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 Chris Lewis
Redistribution for-profit hereby prohibited without consent
of the author. Redistribution via printed book or CDROM
expressly prohibited without consent of the author.
New or changed material is marked with a "|". You can skip to the
new sections by typing "g^|" in most newsreaders.
Changes this issue: See reference to US regulations, and US-specific change
on corner posts.
I will extend this from time-to-time as comments come in, or it
seems appropriate to add new stuff. This is not formated as Q&A,
just as a series of points.
This is a summary of the "Crib and Cradle Safety" pamphlet published
by the Ministry of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Canada.
The date on the pamphlet seems to be 1987. I don't imagine that
it's changed much since then. The pamphlet ID is:
C&CC No 190 17342 B 87-07
>From what I've heard of US regulation, they're fairly close.
More detailed US specifications are available from the US Consumer Product
Safety Commission by writing them at:
Publication Request
Office of Information and Public Affairs
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
Washington, D.C. 20207
You should ask for publication #202 ("The Safe Nursery - A Buyer's Guide")
These are probably a good start when you're determining the safety
of an existing crib or are thinking of building your own. When in
doubt, though, it is suggested that you obtain the latest applicable
regulations. I've done my best to transcribe them accurately, but
I do not warrantee the accuracy or current applicability of these
rules.
The measurements in this pamphlet are metric. I'll take a stab at
the conversions, but if there's a conflict, take the metric.
(for reference, you divide centimetres (cm) by 2.54 to get inches.
There are 10 millimetres (mm) in a centimetre). Even if these
are a direct copy of the USA's (or vice-versa) people should be
aware that the actual US regulations will probably not be
exact conversions (eg: it's been rounded off one way or the other)
slat spacing: maximum: 6cm (2 3/8") [This may seem unreasonably
narrow - no child that's likely to be at home is going to have a head
*that* small. True. But a child's body can often slip through
a gap only a little larger, resulting in strangulation when the
child's head gets caught.]
corner post protrusion (above rails/frame): 3mm max (1/8", 1/16" US)
When the mattress support is at the lowest position and the drop side
is at the highest, the top of the rail must be at least 66cm (26")
above the top of the mattress support.
When the mattress support is at its highest, and drop side at lowest,
the top of the rail must be at least 23cm (9") above the top of the
mattress support.
Other rules:
- drop side requires two separate positive and simultaneous
actions to release the side, and engages automatically.
- there must be no gap between the lower edge of the end panel
and the upper edge of mattress support.
- all small parts are firmly attached and able to withstand
a 90 newton (20 pounds) of force, pull or push
- there are no split, cracked or broken, loose or missing slats,
or broken or missing hardware or screws
- threaded bolt ends are either inaccessible or covered by
an acorn nut
- mattress support mechanisms are firmly attached so that they
cannot be released with an upward push from under the mattress
support.
- there is no mmore than a 3cm (1 3/16") gap between the mattress
and the sides or ends of the crib when the mattress is pushed
into a corner.
- the labeling on cribs, cradles and their containers clearly
identifies the manufacturer, model number and date of manufacture.
- all open holes are too small for a child's finger to become caught.
- crib mattresses should be no thicker than 15cm (5 7/8").
They should be kept in good condition. if they're too soft
or worn down in any area, a gap or hollow may be created where
a baby could become trapped and suffocate.
Literature which must accompany the crib or cradle should:
- state and show clearly how to assemble the product
- contain a warning on proper use of the product, including a
statement not to use it if the child is able to climb out
unaided or, in the case of cribs, is taller than 90cm.
Mattress support mechanisms:
The mattress support mechanisms or hangers on some cribs may
not be secure. Check them by rattling the mattress support,
thumping the mattress from the top and repeating the thumping
on the support from the bottom. If the support dislodges, your
child's life could be in danger. To prevent this, prop up the
mattress support firmly from underneath, perhaps by using large
boxes.
[Ed note: when in doubt, bolt it together. This one item is
probably responsible for more deaths than all of the other problems
put together]
Precautions:
- Some people like to protect the mattress with waterproof sheets -
but these could hamper a child's breathing and should not be
used.
[Ed note: many new mattresses come with integral waterproof
coverings. You should use a quilted mattress protector *and*
a fitted mattress sheet (cotton or flannelette) over top.]
- bumper pads are used to protect a baby's head if he or she happens
pump it against the side of the crib. Bumper pads come protected
with a plastic cover, which should be checked as often as possible.
If it's punctured or torn, it could be chewed or torn even
further, and a baby might swallow or inhale pieces of it and
choke. A torn plastic cover also leads to holes in the bumper
pad, and babies have been known to stick their heads in these
holes and suffocate.
Pointers:
- Always make sure that your crib is assembled strictly in
accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, and that
each component is properly and securely in place at all
times.
- If you own a portable mesh crib, make certain that the drop side
is fixed very securely in the raised position. Otherwise, the
baby might roll into the mesh pocket formed when the drop side
is not fully raised. The baby's head or chest could easily
become compressed between the floor of the crib and the mesh
side and the baby could suffocate.
- Never leave a baby in a crib with something like a necklace,
elastic, scarf or with a pacifier on a long cord...
- People like to hang mobiles over cribs. These should be too
far to be reached by a baby standing in the crib.
- Babies should never be tied or harnessed in a crib.
- As soon as your baby is able to sit up, remove crib exercisors
or other toys that are strung over the crib.
- As soon as your baby is able to stand, ensure that the mattress
is at its lowest position, and remove the bumper pads from the
crib, as well as any large toys that could serve as steps for
climbing out.
- Avoid using a crib with toeholds - ie: slat/spindle cribs with
cross-bars in the head or foot board. There should be no foot
hold that is less than the above side minimum height specifications
from the top.
- When your baby is old enough to climb out of the crib, it's time
to stop using it.
New rules/recommendations:
- rocking cradles (rocker or swing type) should be designed so that
they will rock less than 10 degrees when a child is all the way
to one side, or be supplied with spring-loaded bolt locks.
"Loose pin" locks are inadequate, because they may fall out or
be forgotten or lost. If the cradle rocks more than 10 degrees
under the weight of a child, very young children can roll into a
corner, become entangled in the bedclothes, be unable to move
and suffocate.
Political Correctness:
Some senior health officials consider having your child sleep in
your bed with you to be extremely hazardous, because, asleep, you
could roll over and crush or suffocate your child. Worse, some of
these same officials, plus those in child welfare agencies consider
it to be prima-facie evidence of child abuse, and being sufficient
in itself to result in a child being removed into state care.
Of course it's all horse manure. Having children sleep by themselves
in cribs is a phenomena unique to just a few western cultures, and
that only in the very recent past.
However, some of these people have very broad discretionary powers,
and caution is advised.
[Canada only] If you have further questions, please contact your local
office of Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada.
Building your own crib/cradle (not from the pamphlet)
Finishing:
Ideally, you want to use a totally non-toxic finish, because some children
tend to act like beavers.... The best solution is to use some sort of
edible oil. Unfortunately, most of the vegetable oils (corn oil, sunflower
oil et. al.) take a long time to dry, if at all, and under some circumstances
will go rancid and smell and may cause a child some distress. Three oil
finishes that are known to be suitable are:
- pure tung oil (make sure it says it's *pure*. Most "tung oil"
finishes are combined with metallic driers and solvents to improve
hardness or speed up the drying)
- walnut oil.
- Behlen's salad bowl finish.
It's recommended that you let these finishes dry for two weeks or longer.
Some of the standard finishes will dry to a non-toxic state, but this
will depend on the brand, and a long drying time. This FAQ will make
no recommendations as to whether any are suitable.
Mineral oil can be used because it is non-toxic, but it never really
dries completely.
Note that there have been reports that cribs painted with old-fashioned lead
paints can actually have direct toxic affects on a child. If you obtain
an old cradle (70's or earlier), it might be worth testing it for lead
if it has a paint finish.
Materials: Many woods can cause skin irritation or other problems.
If you stick to a domestic hardwood (maple, cherry, walnut, poplar,
pine, oak, beech etc.) and use a reasonable finish, the cradle will be
safe. Woods to avoid without extra precautions are: most exotic
hardwoods (especially rosewood, teak), cedar, juniper (aromatic cedar)
and some of the less common domestics, such as Oleander and Mimosa.
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:33 PM
To: Thomas R. Knisely
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Bandsaw
Hi Tom,
The Delta's sheet steel is a little heavier gage and the bottom guide is
a little better than the Jet. The Jet is made a little "cheaper" (even)
but is just as capable for the 14" size. Price difference worth it?
Not in my opinion. They both accept the post extension to raise re-saw
to 12" (pricey option for bulk iron). Motors are about same, wheels
have one or 2 more spokes on the Delta but are still light aluminum, no
real difference. Delta's service is great but you shouldn't need it.
At about $800 for the so-called "luxury" model, I think it's very steep
for what it is. The luxury 285 mdl is just a way of giving you at added
margins the better fence and what nots which should be included at $150
less. Again, my opinion.
Both saws are great for the hobbyist. The Delta's reputation has
suffered some manufacturing problems the past few years according to
what I've read and heard from owners. Delta is always quick to fix it
though. The old, same model, Delta-Rockwell (my first band!) looked the
same but were built and finished better and are often seen in production
shops for medium duty bandsawing where they do fine.
With a great blade you'll need better guides (please, look at Harvey
Freeman's before Carter Guides for that) and then you'll probably be
very happy at around $1,000. There's a number of good blades on the
market, Timberwoolf is what I'd recommend, it's a sure bet.
http://www.timberwolf1.com/
A 1/4" and either a 1/2 or 3/4 for resawing, depending on how much resaw
you'll do, should suffice. For teeth configurations, E-mail me on or
off list and I'll type you a small intro on that. Get the book "Bandsaw
basics", forgot the author but can look it up for you, to start and get
you well on your way.
Lastly, I have no idea what your price range is, but assuming you can go
the $800 for the Delta... why not get a full hi-duty, Italian made,
Laguna Bandsaw? It was on sale last week for $995 and tehy would still
give you that price today. It is at least (understatement) twice the
saw the Delta could ever be with the nicest options, for only $195 extra
(norm. retail about $1,500!). Go look at it:
http://www.lagunatools.com/lt16.htm
So if you're looking at the tool for least expense, I'd go Jet, the best
saw for about $1,000 I'd go Laguna. That's what I have right now and I
can tell you loads on that one in private if you wish.
Frederik
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 5:26 PM
To: frederik at gorge.net; Thomas R. Knisely
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Bandsaw
Another option at around $1000 is the General 14" bandsaw. It is very
nicely made from one large solid casting. The Laguna is a very nice saw as
well. IMO the choice between the Laguna and the General is sort of like
the choice between Mercedes and BWM, a matter of preferences. I believe
that MiniMax also sells a saw very similar to the Laguna.
The Delta and Jet saw are both in a much lower quality of construction class
than the Laguna, General or MiniMax. At $800 Delta seems to be asking a
premium price for a non-premium product.
John
From: Richard Funnell [rfunnell at pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 9:55 PM
To: Thomas R. Knisely; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Bandsaw
I went through the same comparison a year ago, and ended up buying the Jet.
I got the Jet with a closed base on sale for $500. The Delta was closer
to $800. The main difference I've seen is the lower guide, but that's
never been an issue for me.
A magazine review some time ago also noted that the Delta was the only
bandsaw being reviewed that had a reasonably accurate blade tension index.
Could be, but I just use mine and it works. I would have to say the Jet
fence is not good at all. No easy adjustment for angle, and poor
tolerances that required some grinding to make it work as designed.
Overall, I love using the beast and appreciate its fit and finish. I'm
extremely pleased with the machine.
Richard
From: Jerry Johnston [jerryj at ccnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 11:12 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Bandsaw
I bought the Delta enclosed base 14" saw. The enclosed base
has a small footprint. I added a mobile base to allow me to
move it around. This is especially important in my small
shop (9' x 15').
I have been very pleased with the performance of the saw.
The only modification I made was to add Joe Johns upper
guide bearings. This is a significant improvement. The only
other modification I would consider would be to improve the
dust collection. The provided dust collection port is small
and, I believe, not in the ideal location.
I echo the suggestion of many others, I use only Timberwolf
blades from Suffolk Machinery. I have the 1/2 inch for
resawing and use 1/4 inch for everything else. Also have
1/8 inch but have not used it - still have an old Craftsman
scrollsaw.
Jerry Johnston
San Ramon, CA USA (30 miles east of San Francisco)
From: tlovelace at austin360.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:47 AM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: re:bandsaw
The disc that you describe is available from Delta.
It is the throat plate for a pretty old 24 inch scroll saw.
I picked up an old Sears copy of this saw from a garage sale for
$50.00 bucks.
The beam (arm) was about 2 inches diameter at the blade end and
made of Tubular cast-iron.
That plate was missing. Investigation led to Delta.
Note: the saw was so old that the Sears nameplate was metal,
oval shape and the size of a Texas belt buckle! The lettering
was raised above the surface. Later sold it for $100.00 at a
garage sale.
Tom
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:21 PM
To: fwpe at hotcoco.infi.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: bandsaw
Dave, Maria and the Gang sent this originally; frank responds:
>> I recently purchased a vintage (circa 1880's) 36" bandsaw that I am in
>> the process of renovating. I purchesed new tires for the wheels, which
>> come 20% undersized and must be stretched to fit, not an easy
>> proposition since they are pretty thick and 2 1/8" wide. On a 20"
>> Crescent that I had renovated a few years ago, I stretched the tires
>> onto the rim after gluing it, only to find that I had not stretched it
>> evenly, hence, an unbalanced wheel w/ bumps where the rubber was
>> thicker.
>>
>> These larger, thicker tires present even more of a problem to get on
>> evenly. Anyone have any ideas or experience that they'd like to share
>> w/ me? Thanks Dave
>
>Could you submerge the tires in hot water to soften it up before you
>stretch it on to the wheels?
You could, or you could use this hint I got in a box of Volkswagen window
seals, which are also thick and wide.
What Bug window-installing people do is to lay the seals out in the sun
until they get good and pliable, then start installing them.
The VW people then dip them in soapy water before beginning the
installation. This wouldn't be good on a bandsaw, so let's turn to my
Army days putting eyelens outserts on a gas mask. The rubber seal
on the eyelens outserts is too small for the area it's got to go on, so
what's done is to roll the rubber seal back over the lens before
installing it, then roll and tuck the seal into place. (For all you
sex-crazed
fools, yes, it's just like putting on a rubber.)
So I'm thinking (and not checking because I don't have my own
bandsaw--we have one at work, though) that turning the tire inside
out and, using a couple of people, rolling it onto the wheel would
work okay.
--jmowreader
Lots of people buy Windows PCs and, six months later, say
"I wish I had a better computer." Not many people buy Macs
and say, six months later, "I wish I had a worse one."
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:14 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: bandsaw
Looking for the professional advise again.
I have spent the better part of today tuning up and adjusting
woodworking machines. This past friday I received a copy of "Mastering
Woodworking Machines" and reviewed the adjustment areas quite
thoroughly, I think. Well as I said I spent today adjusting, first the
table saw, then the joiner, next the drill press. So far so good, ha.
Now for the band saw. This beast is a Grizzly 18" model that was used by
a guitar maker who couldn't make it, so it has low hours and low wear.
On it is a 124" blade, 3/4" wide and 3 tooth per inch. Well I followed
all his steps, made the adjustments, set the wheels for coplanar
tracking (recommended for the wide blade) and the blade does ride
forward of center. Now the problem. While running the saw the blade
hops. What this means is that when you are facing the teeth of the blade
to feed wood into it, it hops or jumps toward me, visually it looks like
about 1/8 hop. I have checked the tires, and checked the wheels for
eccentrcy, although not with a dial indicator. I cut a piece of red oak
that was 3 1/2' thick, and it seemed to require allot of effort to cut
it, and the cut left a jagged finish. Any ideas???
Thanks,
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 3:41 PM
To: Dave Tinley; Woodworking
Subject: bandsaw
Dave
Did you check the blade. Sounds like a bad weld or maybe a kink in
the blade.
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 9:01 PM
To: Dave Tinley; Woodworking
Subject: bandsaw
It sounds like your blade might not have been aligned perfectly at the weld.
I've had this problem even with a very highly regarded Suffolk blade. Is
the "hop" in the general area of the weld? It also sounds like the blade
you have is probably dull.
John
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:48 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: bandsaw
Dave,
It sounds like you have a bad weld or a kink somewhere in the blade. If
it is not unusual to get a blade with a bad weld now-a-days. If it is
too late to return the blade, it is easily repaired by anyone with the
proper equipment. If it is a kink, I would convert it to blade stock for
bow saw. As far as the sawing effort problem, while red oak can offer a
challenge, the problem is more likely due to a dull blade. And finally,
I believe a 3tpi blade will always leave a jagged finish. It might help
to use a small sharpening stone to lightly dress both sides of the
teeth, but in general I believe the jagged finish is the price you pay
for being able to saw thick material at a reasonable speed. BTW, if you
try the dressing method, DON'T use the power to move the blade. Turn the
upper wheel by hand --- BACKWARDS. It just takes a couple of passes. All
you're trying to do is remove any burrs on the tooth.
Hope that helps,
Mike
------------------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
From: lmted [lmted at catskill.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 6:17 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: barrister bookcase
I was wondering if someone knows where I can find plans or prints for building a barrister bookcase? lmted at catskill.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: barrister bookcase
> I was wondering if someone knows where I can find plans or prints for
> building a barrister bookcase?
This one is kinda ugly.
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/004.htm
A variation on the above.
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/008.htm
This one is better.
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/012.htm
And yet another variation on the above.
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/016.htm
This is a pretty good one too.
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&Product_ID=1460&CATID=50
Keith Bohn
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 12:52 PM
To: lmted; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: barrister bookcase
There is a nice set of plans for stackable Barristers bookcases available from Woodworker's Discount Books.
http://www.discount-books.com
1 (800) 378-4060
Item Number P198 $13.50
If anyone does not have their catalog, send or call for it. It has some very nice plans available for reasonable prices.
From: Bill Mutschler [sawdust_books at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: barrister bookcase
There is a link to a barrister bookcase on my site at
http://members.xoom.com/sawdustbooks/html/plans.html
Good luck..
Bill
From: Joe [burnie at erie.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 8:41 PM
To: lmted
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: barrister bookcase
The Nov. 98 issue of Popular Woodworking has plans for a barister
bookcase in it.
lmted wrote:
> I was wondering if someone knows where I can find plans or prints for
> building a barrister bookcase? lmted at catskill.net
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 6:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Base for TS
Yo again,
I was wondering if any of y'all have ever taken the legs off of a
contractors TS and built a
base for it to make it more like a cabinet saw?? And if you did. Did it
help on dust collecting?? I am contemplating this for two reasons. 1)
The dust collection issue.
2) Motor and pulley being on the back end receive some punishment and
too much sawdust.
I know I could build a extension off the back but would like to add the
cabinet.
Maybe I am just wishing for a cabinet saw after all..................
Dave Tinley
5 more days till the stitches out-
Waco, Texas
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 5:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Base for TS
>Yo again,
>I was wondering if any of y'all have ever taken the legs off of a
>contractors TS and built a base for it to make it more like a cabinet
>saw??
There is a write up on building such a base in the June 1998/Issue 106
of WOOD magazine.
>And if you did. Did it help on dust collecting??
Can't say other than in theory it should but...
>I am contemplating this for two reasons.
>1) The dust collection issue.
The WOOD magazine article shows how to build the base with a slide out
frame to hold a bag to catch the sawdust.
>2) Motor and pulley being on the back end receive some punishment and
>too much sawdust.
They also show a box on the back to cover the motor. The box also
acts as an off-feed extension with miter slots cut into it. It
doesn't appear to take up much more room than the existing arraignment
with the motor hanging out the back.
>I know I could build a extension off the back but would like to add the
>cabinet.
Oh heck yeah! The WOOD article is a nice start but I think you should
build in some sort of outlet for use with a dust collector. As they
have it you rely on gravity and there's really nothing to prevent the
dust from drifting back to the motor. On the other hand you should
consider blowing out the motor after every use.
>Maybe I am just wishing for a cabinet saw after all..................
And there's something wrong with having a dream?
Keith Bohn
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 7:27 PM
To: The OAK
Subject: Bench and Table Working Heights
Hi,
I am rearranging my shop including installing the long awaited blast
gates on my dust extraction system and would like some ideas on
comfortable (and presumably therefore safe) working heights for the
tables of my TS and in particular Bandsaw (hereinafter referred to as
BS) .
In general terms I have set bench and table height at 900 mm or 2 ft
11-1/2in (+ or-5mm to allow for levelling). This works fine for the TS
but not for the BS as I have difficulty working bending down to that
table (spinal injuries limit movement). I am finding that where vision
on the TS is unobstructed the BS guard and guide assembly does limit
my ability to see the point of cut if the table is set low. I
initially set the BS table at the same height as the rest of my
equipment so I could use any unit as support for any other. Good idea?
Bad Thinking?
I was thinking of defining the height relative to waist &/or shoulder
height, rather than in mm or in. from floor level as we tend to vary
somewhat in overall length.
Any suggestions short of cutting off of legs will be seriously
concidered.
Geoff Morgan.
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 3:16 PM
To: gdmorgan
Cc: The OAK
Subject: Re: Bench and Table Working Heights
They say that the best height for a work surface at which you stand (as
opposed to a desk at which you sit) is the height at which, when standing,
you can lay the palms of your hands on the surface without bending down or
bending your elbows. Benches come in heights from about 32 inches to 36
inches. I find 32 fine.
Ray
From: Frank Karnes [searcher at netzone.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:14 AM
To: gdmorgan
Cc: The OAK
Subject: Re: Bench and Table Working Heights
Geoff,
I don't recommend flesh and bone adjustments to accomodate your power
tools :^; Think that the equations for this list (in terms of body
deminsions) would vary from the long to the short. In my case I am
6 ft , my table saw is 34" and the bandsaw is 44". I find these heights
to be perfect for me. My waist is 42" (not around, from the ground!!)
Hope this helps
Cheers
Frank
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 5:09 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Bench and Table Working Heights
Hi Geoff.
>From my experience using a band saw, it depends.
When I'm resawing 12" wide boards (11 1/4" actual) 6 feet long, my present
height on my Band Saw is too tall. I have a Jet 14" closed stand saw with
riser block, on an HTC roll around base.
However, when I'm doing detailed work, it is just right. I'm 6'2" tall, and
my BS table comes to about my mid chest (just above the 'ol spare tire).
In regards to keeping equipment tops similar height, I would not include my
Band Saw in the group of "shared" table tops.
Todd.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 5:01 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Bench and Table Working Heights
I think that's a real good place to start. I'm 6' and short legged but my TS
and workbench are at 37 1/2". This gets the work a little closer to these
myopic old peekers as well as keeping my hands and forearms closer to my
chest (this is where you get the most strength rather than with arms
extended). Also, should the need arise, I can build a small platform that I
can position anywhere it's needed. DP I positioned with the handle at about
shoulder level (I haven't had anything heavy on it yet) and that seems to
work fine for me.
I guess the bottom line is that I think it's easier to stand on a box than
hunker down. Depending on the style of stand/bench I would tend to build a
little high and trim off the bottom if necessary (somehow a picture of
somebody with a saw, a six inch high table and a pile of leg sections just
ran through my mind).
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Steve W [vistin at earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1992 9:45 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Best finish brushes
Steve wrote:
Where do yall buy your best finish brushes. A site maybe?
Thanks guys/gals
Steve
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 10:52 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Best finish brushes
Just one vote re the best finish brushes, but it's fine and I'm sticking to
it. I get really good results with Purdy and believe they're widely
available. Not the finest of the fine, but very good.
Rosie, HTH
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 6:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Best Finish for Butcher Block
Here's a short article:
http://lafayette.indy.net/~belex/cb_fin.html and a somewhat longer one:
http://www.americanwoodworker.com/just_finishing/37jf/37just_finishing.htm
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Stacy Boncheff [bonch at ipa.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 3:38 PM
To: Oak
Subject: Best Finish for Butcher Block Top
Well I found a plan for a butcher block table for my mother-in-law for
Christmas. I made a deal with my father-in-law that if he would pay for the
wood, I would make the table. Not bad considering it is a Christmas present
from both of us. However, I thought it would be prudent to not poison them
after they begin to use the table and was wondering what is the best finish
for a butcher block. Please remember, I don't want to go to jail for
poisoning them and would like to finish it with a good quality finish.
Please advise and thanks in advance,
Stacy
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 10:27 PM
To: nmichels at concentric.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Best supplier of bulk sheet sandpaper??
nmichels wrote:
>
> Don:
>
> I buy from Klingspor's also. I'm guessing that what you're talking
> about here is 150 grit garnet. The current Klingspor's catalog shows a
> price of $9.95 for 50 81/2 X 11 sheets. That's $19.90 vs $19.04. Since
> I can't believe you'd buy a poor quality product, what's the address of
> Furniture Makers Supply Co.
>
> Norm
Norm,
It's 3M, and bear in mind that prices can change. The address is P.O.
Box 728. The zip is 27293. Here's the phone number in case you can't
find "P.O." street :-) 704/956-2722, or 800/845-2127. Another industrial
supplier in High Point is Beeson Supply @910/887-3141. There might even
be a Beeson in your town. If you can find a Norton supplier, the cost
could even be slightly less.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
>
> >Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> > I buy from Furniture Makers Supply Co. in Lexington, N.C., strictly an
> > industrial supplier. Their prices are fair, but what is most important
> > to me is that have the wierd sizes and most all the 3M product numbers
> > in stock so I don't have to spend time calling here and there. An
> > example of their pricing is 100 shts 9 x 11 150A 110N Garnet $19.04.
>
> > Don Weisman
> > Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Graham McCulloch (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Best supplier of bulk sheet sandpaper??
Tom;
Sia, a Swiss company has great products, but for US and Canadian made,
Norton is tops in my book.
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
> Thomas Bunetta wrote:
>
> I'm about to stock up on sandpaper...
> Klingspoor seems a tad high, so I wonder who you guys order from.
> I will probably be looking for packs of 100, and most likely aluminum
> oxide.
> Ideas welcome!
> TIA,
> Tom
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 9:09 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Bicycle Lathe?
...Yes, totally ! Minus the handle bar because that's where the Lathe
goes. (kinda)
Frederik
Clint & Tracy Warren wrote:
>
> Jim,
> What is a bicycle lathe? Are we talking a human powered lathe?
>
> just curious
>
> clint warren
> Boise, Id.
From: Dahl, David @ Green Bay [GREENBAY!GREENBAY!ddahl at dfvcwi.attmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:21 AM
To: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: Biscuits
Folks:
Thought I'd share something I saw the other night on TV, think it was
Monday. The Learning Channel had a show about searching for an ancient
Greek ship which sank thousands of years ago, and what caught my
attention was when the archeologist began to "build" the ship on PC using
the remains of the vessel as a guide.
The ship was constructed of a double-planked hull (kind of a hull within
a hull) encased in lead below the waterline. The planks were held in
place by biscuits! No, not glued, but pegged. Imagine a 2" thick board
with a 1" mortice for the biscuit to be inserted, with pegs holding it in
place. Boards were tennoned into a frame of ribs, also using pegs. As I
thought about it, it made a lot of sense because as the boards swelled
with moisture from the air, the pegs would hold the biscuit into place.
With time, the joint would become stronger!
And I thought Norm was good...
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:42 PM
To: Bruce Gowens; Bruce Hamon
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Biscut Joiners
Bruce,
The PC 557 very nicely addresses the fence positioning issue you raise.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Gowens [mailto:bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 4:51 AM
To: Bruce Hamon
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Biscut Joiners
I have a Robyi, and would _not_ recommend it because the
slot is too wide (in my opinion, which may be wrong) and the
fence can be cockeyed.
Thus the two things I would look for are:
1) width of slot. Biscuits should slip in easily (glue
and expansion room, you know) but I do not believe they
should wobble around. A test is in order, if you can do it.
2) the fence. I like being able to raise and lower the
fence to position the biscuit in the center of thick
material. Unfortunately all I've seen that can do that
require positioning on both sides and it is possible (even
likely) that the cut will not be parallel with the top of
the board. Is that a problem, you ask? I can see it being
so.
Bruce Hamon wrote:
>
> I am in the market for a biscut joiner and would like to have any/all
> opinions on,
> 1) what to look for in a good vs. okay joiner
> 2) which one(s) you would recommend to me; price is an object,
> but further down the "list" than quality and other "significant"
> features/benefits (those things that you all recommend).
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Bruce Hamon
From: Joe [burnie at erie.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:10 PM
To: Bruce Hamon
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Biscut Joiners
After looking around at prices and reviews, I chose the Dewalt. I found it
listed for $159 at Tool-Crib of the North, took the ad into Home Depot and
they matched the price+shipping minus 10% for an out-the door price of
$145. That is about $50 cheaper than I could get a PC 557. Most of the
reviews I looked at seemed to favor the Dewalt.
Check out this site for more info.
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/ToolSurvey/directory.html
Joe Farrell
Bruce Hamon wrote:
> I am in the market for a biscut joiner and would like to have any/all
> opinions on,
> 1) what to look for in a good vs. okay joiner
> 2) which one(s) you would recommend to me; price is an object,
> but further down the "list" than quality and other "significant"
> features/benefits (those things that you all recommend).
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Bruce Hamon
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:49 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Bruce Hamon; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Biscut Joiners
Now, THAT is what I call _content_!!!
I thank you very much for the suggestion concerning
blocks to set the biscuit cutter fence. I can see how it
would work, and it certainly solves what looked like a
problem. Thank you very much for the tip.
Harvey Freeman wrote:
>
> Bruce;
> I agree with your fence comment below but there is a fairly simple
> solution and that is a set of gauge blocks just made from hardwood in
> the thickness you usually would set the fence away from the blade. Just
> place the gauge block between the fence and the blade and let it create
> a parallel relationship before tightening the fence. The DeWalt rack
> and pinion system is the one I would like but I bought the Freud and can
> not justify buying a second. This system works well for me for the
> amount of work I do.
> > 2) the fence. I like being able to raise and lower the
> > fence to position the biscuit in the center of thick
> > material. Unfortunately all I've seen that can do that
> > require positioning on both sides and it is possible (even
> > likely) that the cut will not be parallel with the top of
> > the board. Is that a problem, you ask? I can see it being
> > so.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce Hamon wrote:
> > >
> > > I am in the market for a biscut joiner and would like to have any/all
> > > opinions on,
> > > 1) what to look for in a good vs. okay joiner
> > > 2) which one(s) you would recommend to me; price is an object,
> > > but further down the "list" than quality and other "significant"
> > > features/benefits (those things that you all recommend).
> > > Thank you in advance.
> > >
> > > Bruce Hamon
>
> --
> Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
> 123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
> Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
> Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:16 PM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Blade Point Laser
All:
I have read several evaluations on various bulletin boards. Most of
what, I read said that it does what is advertised. Take that for what
it is worth. I have a real problem with the concept from a safety
standpoint the would preclude me from buying and using it. In order for
it to work, the saw must be running and I assume the guard must be
retracted at least partially. Do I want to have one hand on the grip of
my miter saw and the hand trying to adjust the work with blade running?
I don't think so.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA
Joe Johns wrote:
>
> At 12:25 PM 10/27/98 -0800, larry wrote:
>
> > Has anyone purchased one of the Blade Point Laser Alignment Devices?
> > Are they as good as advertised? I have a Dewalt 705 that I might be
> > interested in adding one of these units to. How about it do any of
> > you have any feedback (good or bad).
>
> Well, some time ago the folks at BladePoint were supposed to send me
> one for an evaluation but I have yet to receive it. I sent them a
> note saying so but, alas, I didn't even get a response.
>
> I wonder if this may have any bearing with regard to product quality?
>
> Joe
> Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
>
> URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
> Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
> Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 2:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Blade Point Laser
From: Jim Baird [Jim at bladepoint.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 5:31 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Fw: Blade Point Laser
Hi All!
Actually, I just wanted to jump in to clear up a couple issues...
Joe will get his unit in a week. There was a little misunderstanding
with mail messages...
Next, you do not need to retract the guard at all. The saw must be
running since the unit is activated via centrifugal force (a built in
switch). But the guard does not block the laser whatsoever... The
laser is shining tangent to the blade. As for adjusting the work,
what process are you using now? I know I do a lot of bending over,
moving the work, bending over again, then cutting. Now I stand
upright, turn on/off the saw, adjust, then cut. (A lot less bending
down to see where the blade is touching the line).
In the case of other saws, like handheld circular saws, just cut as
you normally would, except you have a laser pointing the way...
Joe's review should be helpful in clearing up many issues, we look
forward to his input!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Martin <knm at widomaker.com>
To: Joe Johns <woodwork at ronan.net>
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Blade Point Laser
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 11:29 AM
To: larry
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Blade Point Laser
Larry & All;
The people at "BladePoint" are sending me an evaluation sample for
review in the various publications that I write for. I will copy the
group after the testing.
Graham
From: Raymond Friesen [friesen at blueplanet.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 7:51 PM
To: theoak
Subject: Blanket Chest Plans
Gentleman, and Ladies:
I am looking for some plans. A couple of years ago, I built a
'blanket-chest' from plans I found in one of the magazines. Naturally,
I have forgotten which one, and also naturally I have lost the plans. (I
really do miss my mind -- I think.) The chest was made of oak plywood
with oak edges on the plywood and was lined with cedar. It was really
simple to build and I would like to build another -- I gave the first
one to my daughter -- and now my wife wants one. Anyway, I think it
might have been in "Wood Magazine", Issue 58, January 1993. Naturally,
they do not have any back issues left. If anybody out there still has
that issue would you look in it and see it that maybe was the chest I
built. If you have the issue, I would sure like to have a copy of the
plans. Let me know and I would send you a stamped addressed envelope
and pay for the copies.
Or if anybody knows of another plan, holler.....thanks....rf
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 8:34 PM
To: friesen at blueplanet.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Blanket Chest Plans
Go here:
http://www.theoak.com/plans/ click on furniture on the left. Scroll down on the
right. There are two free plans for blanket chests.
Then go here for a repository of downloadable online plans from Wood:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/plans.html OR go here for hard plans you can order
from the site:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/compstor/woodplan.html
The only blanket chest they have at either site is this one:
http://135.145.192.232/woodplans/IFS-1009.htm
At the downloadable site there are two free plans; one for a jewelery chest and
one for an "icebox". You'll need adobe acrobat (free at the site) because the
plans are in PDF.
That's all I know about your lawn mower!
Chuck
From: Dick Merryman [dicko at wormhole.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 9:14 PM
To: friesen at blueplanet.net; theoak
Subject: Re: Blanket Chest Plans
Ray-
Sorry I can't help with the magazine, but you should take a look at
http://www.augusthome.com/Plans/blchest.htm for a very major blanket chest.
Good luck,
-Dick-
From: Raymond Friesen [friesen at blueplanet.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 12:47 PM
To: cring at concentric.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Blanket Chest Plans
Chuck, et.al;
Thanks for the info. I went to those sites sometime back and found the
plans I thought I was looking for and ordered them from Wood Magazine.
They turned out to be different from what I thought was looking for. I
am hoping that the project in the magazine was actually a little
different from what the plans were that they sold me. I need to see the
one actually in the magazine. Dee Schulyer has the magazine and I am
hoping he can send me a copy of that. Anyway, I may go to some of the
other locations suggested and try them if what Dee has doesn't work out.
I really should have kept the plans to start with and sure would have
saved a lot of scrambling around.
Thanks yawl....rf
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 12:21 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Bleaching products.
Hello all,
does anyone of you know the diverse concentrations, in weight
or in volume, for each of the two parts bleaching products,
sodium hydroxyde and oxygen peroxyde ? How concentrated should
be an oxalic acid solution to remove water stains from oak ? I
may also use it to further bleach some wood that received the
two parts treatment first.
Jean Montambeault
Montr�al, Qu�bec,Canada
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:40 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Ok, I'm working on the Christmas presents. I've been thinking ahead a
little bit about the finish. I am making some small cabinets out of pine.
I've been selecting boards with real nice figure and grain patterns over
the last year or so, and for the cabinets that are not getting (milk)
painted, they will just have a clear finish.
Most of the time when working with pine, I have used either blonde or amber
shellac. I like it as a finish, but this time I want to use Boiled Linseed
Oil (BLO), as it will darken over the years, and that's the look I want the
cabinets to achieve.
My grandfather gave me a recipe several years ago (before I thought I wanted
to be a woodworker - I was putting a new wood bed in pickup then) of 1 part
BLO, 1 part (I used Spar) varnish and 1 part Turpentine. (He said that the
turp was to carry the oil into the wood, and that the first coat could be
even 3 parts turp). It went on maple and looked real good for a few years.
Since then, I've seen this recipe repeated in press and other media and
recognize it to be a time honored finish. The woodwork he had in his house
was finished with this mixture in the '40s, and today it is a wonderful deep
red/brown.
Anyway, back to my question. I've never had real good success with an oil
finish on pine, mostly having experimented with Formby's Tung oil. The "no
good success" I will define as never building a real layer of finish on top
of the wood - it kept sucking it up - and I would get frustrated and give up
after a couple days of trying. Last night I took a scrap of pine, and
mixed 1 part (from a very old can of) BLO and 1 part mineral spirits. So
far, I have applied 4-5 coats. Now, while the wood is a little different
color (richer) and the grain of the wood is pronounced, no finish is even
starting to build, even in the knotty areas.
So, a few questions. Is this to be expected, this "pine oil sucking"
phenomenon, and am I just not sticking with it long enough? Will I ever get
a "surface" film of oil on pine with BLO like I can with hardwoods like oak
and maple? Should I be sealing the pine with a coat or two of shellac
first? If so, will this affect the darkening in the future? Just how many
coats of BLO should be required, over how lng a time? Will these gifts be
done by Dec 24th? (finish wise?)
Also this morning, when checking my used oily rag I had hanging (safetly) to
dry, it was still soft and supple. I expected, through oxidation of the
oil, for it to be a little (or quite) stiff. Is this normal with BLO? (vs
Tung oil)
Now, let's talk about my mixture. I omitted the varnish. (experimenting
again) Is this a no-no? Must I use a varnish in the mixture to build a
surface layer?
And finally, any comments about BLO over Milk Paint?
I think that's enough for now. All comments are appreciated. Todd Burch,
Houston, Texas (first day not in the 80's for a month now - thank you cold
front)
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Well, I did some research last night and learned more. (Actually, I
followed my own advice and read more of "Classic Finishing Techniques", and
reviewed "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Flexner.
Anyway, FWIW, I've learned that BLO by itself is a penetrating oil, not a
film finish. That's why it keeps getting soaked up. And, what better to
soak it up than porous white pine.
So, my finishing plans have changed. I will still use the BLO, say three
coats (at least) over three days, but will pigment it with raw siena.**
Then, I will top coat it with a wiping varnish of some sort, say two to
three coats. Finally, I will go over it with dark wax. (Gotta love dark
wax)
** while "experimenting" last night, I remembered that George (my
grandfather) had put a pigment into his BLO/VARNISH/TURP mixture. I think
one of the "umbers." Anyway, going back to my watercolor hobby days, I got
out my powdered pigments and started messin' around. The umbers (raw/burnt)
reversed the grain of the pine. (Yuk, puke puke.) The burnt siena was
kinda red/pink. I tried it on some cherry (and these were all mixed with
the BLO) and it was beautiful. Then, (drum roll please) tried the raw siena
on the pine. Beautiful!! Connie (SWMBO) even liked it (mark that on my
calendar). It really took the pine from that bland white/faded yellow to a
real warm yellow, while enriching the color of the dark grain lines. (I
guess you gotta like pine to start with). Oh yeah ,I also tried the burnt
siena mixture (red/pink) on some real old, dark heart pine. That's looked
great too.
So, I put my "wunderin" hat on... this is all those retail companies are
doing! Get a little oil here, mix it with that varnish there, drop in some
pigments, shake don't stir, and VIOLA, another color to add the the list.
Amazing. Amazingly simple.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas, just having a nice conversation with myself
again.
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 7:22 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:12:00 -0600, tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
>
>So, I put my "wunderin" hat on... this is all those retail companies are
>doing! Get a little oil here, mix it with that varnish there, drop in some
>pigments, shake don't stir, and VIOLA, another color to add the the list.
> Amazing. Amazingly simple.
Todd
It is my understanding that this basically what the pigmented stains
are. A fine powdered pigment. A carrier and some resins or binders to
lock it in. From time to time the magazines have discussed this.
I am not sure, but I believe that some of them also have some oil
based die in them also. That way you don't get the large grain
reversal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Ralph Bowden, SSI Education [ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 1:19 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
I very familar with BLO and Naptha. Like it well. thinking about using 3-4
coats of this, 400 sanded tween, and 2-3 coats of 2lb shellac. on the cab.
Good excuse to try shellac. I learned about blo/naptha from cude at finishers
supply. acutaly like this over tung oil and wax thanks rb
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 1:09 PM
To: ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Ralph, I was just using pure BLO and mineral spirits (MS). Then, I dipped a
corner of my wet rag into the pigment, then smeared it on the
wet-with-oil-wood. Then, came back again with more oil to even things out.
A little pigment really goes a long way. (Since I think you are from
Houston too, I'll tell you that Texas Art Supply carries the pigments.)
When I do put a finish on all the cabinets, I'll mix the pigment into the
BLO/MS mixture. Right now, I'm using 50/50 BLO/MS, but I think when I do
this for real, I'll have more like a 60/40 or 70/30 BLO/MS. Then, put a
film finish of varnish over all that to lock in the BLO and pigments. I'm
in the process of sending an email to George (grandpa) to ask him his
thoughts on this whole thing too.
>From what I've read, it is ok to use either MS or TURP to thin the BLO.
Does anyone know what difference using either would make?
That brings up another question. Seeing as BLO is a penetrating oil, why
would I even need to thin it to get it to go into the wood? Flexner, in his
book, states that BLO penetration is deep.
I watched a video profile recently on Sam Maloof. He uses the
BLO/VARNISH/TURP mixture for the chairs he makes. 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. I
imagine you go with that and the pigment of your choice and you'll be safe.
(Gee, maybe I should take my own advice again...)
If you go with the Spar varnish, the film that does form will be
"relatively" soft. Any varnish (even poly) will work (per Flexner), so go
with a hard-film-forming one if required.
Todd Burch. Haven't moved since last note.
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 1:26 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
You mentioned leaving out the varnish. I may be wrong, but the oil will soak
into the wood, the varnish would stay on the surface. I've built up finishes
with linseed oil, but it takes lots of coats.
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 1:50 PM
To: dldahl at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
You ain't wrong. That's exactly what it's doin'. Not what I wanted
either. But hey, I learned something by hands on, not just by reading a
book. I'll remember this experience in 10 years! Todd.
P.S. My second grade teacher was Mrs. Dahl. You related? (Anchorage,
Alaska, 1970ish, Lake Otis Elementary)
----------
From: dldahl at worldnet.att.net
To: Todd Burch; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Date: December 9, 1998 3:40PM
You mentioned leaving out the varnish. I may be wrong, but the oil will soak
into the wood, the varnish would stay on the surface. I've built up finishes
with linseed oil, but it takes lots of coats.
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 2:21 PM
To: ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Todd thinks to himeslf: "What's the difference between using BLO/MS versus
BLO/Naptha? " (Versus Turp even)
Todd looks up in Flexners book, and answers the question himself:
Turpentine comes from distilled pine sap (hey, there's that pine again).
The petroleum distillates (naptha, mineral spirits, kerosene) were
developed at the turn of this century. George, born in 1915, was the "old"
school, so I can see why his recommendation was Turp.
Naptha, at the same given temperature, evaporates faster than Mineral
Spirits, and does not leave an oily feel.
Ah, reference books. What would we do without them.
Todd. Getting absolutely no work done today.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:00 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
>
Local hardwood store sells solvent based (i.e.-oil,
alchohol, but not water) liquid _transparent_ dies. Mix
with oil or solvent and you have a stain.
I've been wanting to "warm up" some darker stains, so I
got some yellow and red. I had tried mixing stains, such as
Golden Oak, into Dark Walnut, but the result was too light
(the Golden Oak thinned the darker color) although the color
was nice. Mixing the dye with the walnut stain worked
perfectly. For a more golden "Golden Oak" mix dye with
oil.
The red is a much trickier color to work with. I've
used just a little in some mixes, but it is not a good
"warming" color.
I also used the yellow in a bit of oil to bring two
peices of canary wood to the same color. Here I used very
little dye, and quite a few applications, so I could judge
results between dried coats.
Another use
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 3:19 PM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Linseed Oil on Pine
Bruce Gowens wrote:
>
> tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
> >
> Local hardwood store sells solvent based (i.e.-oil,
> alchohol, but not water) liquid _transparent_ dies. Mix
> with oil or solvent and you have a stain.
>
> I've been wanting to "warm up" some darker stains, so I
> got some yellow and red. I had tried mixing stains, such as
> Golden Oak, into Dark Walnut, but the result was too light
> (the Golden Oak thinned the darker color) although the color
> was nice. Mixing the dye with the walnut stain worked
> perfectly. For a more golden "Golden Oak" mix dye with
> oil.
You did it backwards Todd. The Walnut has a high value. The Oak has a
low value. Therefore, the Walnut should be added to the Oak and then the
color depth could be easily controlled.
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 3:50 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; Carey_Ritchey at tnb.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Book / plans glider rocker
Viel Tools Inc. 1-800-463-1380 or fax 1-800-565-1380. I have built three
of their gliders. If you decide to build this one, contact me and I'll save
you a lot of grief.
John McInnis
It's a very nice glider. I have the romeo and Juillet
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 8:37 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Bookcase Shelves
Well, today is my last day to complete my Christmas presents as we leave
for New Orleans in the morning. We will be there for 2 weeks, during
that time I want to design my next project; a built-in bookcase.
One simple question, what type of wood is best to construct the shelves
so they do not sag under the weight of the books? We have a few cheap
knock-down shelves in one room and thank God they have doors on the
front, because the shelves have a considerable bow in them.
I will still receive my e-mail while I am out of town so any responses
will be appreciated.
Tom Knisely
San Clemente, CA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 8:36 AM
To: knisely at ix.netcom.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Bookcase Shelves
Tom,
The wood specie is not nearly as important as the length of shelf and
construction of the shelf.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:25 PM
To: knisely at ix.netcom.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Bookcase Shelves
In the most rudimentary statement possible:
The thicker the shelf material, the more resistance to sag.
The lighter the load, the more resistance to sag.
The lesser the span, the more resistance to sag.
Any product without grain, particle board, MDF, flake board, wafer board, is a
poor choice. Solid wood is better. Plywood for strength, veneer plywood for
looks. Adjustable shelves on slotted rack hardware or shelf pins will sag
before the same shelf set in a dado, and long before one with a full or 1/2
dovetailed dado joint.
An alternative I have seen is to edge band a 3/4" shelf with 1/2" x 3/4"x
3/64" aluminum angle. While the rearmost edge will be fine, the front edge
will need a shallow rabbet, and some trim moulding.
From: Joe Ruthenberg [jruthenberg at dytn.veridian.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 11:15 AM
To: knisely at ix.netcom.com; Woodworking
Subject: RE: Bookcase Shelves
>One simple question, what type of wood is best to construct the shelves
>so they do not sag under the weight of the books? We have a few cheap
>knock-down shelves in one room and thank God they have doors on the
>front, because the shelves have a considerable bow in them.
There was a magazine article in a WWing mag last year (Woodsmith?) that
pondered this very question. They compared solid wood, plywood, MDF. Solid
wood turned out to be the strongest.
Of course, if you really want strength, the key is to use fixed shelves with
a dado in back. I have about 200 or so textbooks and reference books
relating to my job in a bookcase in my office. They're *really* heavy. Stuff
like the Jumbo sized edition of Machinery's Handbook, CRC Handbook, you
know, geek stuff. My bookcase has sliding dovetails on the sides of the
shelves, and a dado routed into the back 3/4" plywood back. I used cherry
plywood for the whole thing, with the exception of a small face frame on the
front to conceal the plywood. Looks amazingly sweet. Very rigid. Since the
shelves are supported by the back, they aren't showing any sag, like they
would otherwise.
I've seen other tricks involving steel supports which are hidden in the
shelves, but they strike me as unnecessarily complex.
Cheers,
joe
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 1:45 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Books on wood
The thread on yellow pine has me wanting to read up on the common woods we
use in woodworking. I have a book called "Goodwood Handbook" but it doesn't
contain much information about specific woods, mostly about wood and trees
in general and how they're made into lumber.
I really like the following site with it's information about wood:
http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/
Can anyone suggest books which have a lot of information about trees and how
the lumber is used (i.e. construction, chairs, handles, accents, etc.), as
well as, technical info similiar to the above site?
Thanks,
Rick McQuay
--
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 4:29 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Books on wood
Rick A. McQuay wrote:
>
Rick, the time honored bible is "Understanding Wood", by R. Bruce
Hoadley, copyright 1980 by The Taunton Press. The ISBN# is
0-918804-05-1. It doesn't have everything you are asking for, but it's
a great reference and one of the most used books in my woodworking
library. I believe it is still in print, but check out a copy at your
local library and see if it satisfies your needs before you buy. It has
also been used as a college textbook, which is how I got my copy.
Regards,
Gerald
> The thread on yellow pine has me wanting to read up on the common woods we
> use in woodworking. I have a book called "Goodwood Handbook" but it doesn't
> contain much information about specific woods, mostly about wood and trees
> in general and how they're made into lumber.
>
> I really like the following site with it's information about wood:
> http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/
>
> Can anyone suggest books which have a lot of information about trees and how
> the lumber is used (i.e. construction, chairs, handles, accents, etc.), as
> well as, technical info similiar to the above site?
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Books on wood
> Rick A. McQuay wrote:
> > The thread on yellow pine has me wanting to read up on the common woods we
> > use in woodworking. I have a book called "Goodwood Handbook" but it doesn't
> > contain much information about specific woods, mostly about wood and trees
> > in general and how they're made into lumber.
> >
> > I really like the following site with it's information about wood:
> > http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/
> >
> > Can anyone suggest books which have a lot of information about trees and how
> > the lumber is used (i.e. construction, chairs, handles, accents, etc.), as
> > well as, technical info similiar to the above site?
Rick,
I've read a lot of books over the years. And since I still can't tell
Fir from Pine under a finish and in a photo, I'm probably the last one's
advise you'd want to consider. But I found that no 1 book gives all the
information you seek. Each author, has his forte in a different area.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:23 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Books on wood
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected everything from
a single book. You are quite right of course, it's doubtful any one author
could put everything about every wood into one book. All of the books I've
seen so far are very general in nature and oriented toward familiarization.
Now I want to get into the nuts and bolts, more out of curiosity than any
practical reason right now.
Rick McQuay
--
From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
>Rick,
>I've read a lot of books over the years. And since I still can't tell
>Fir from Pine under a finish and in a photo, I'm probably the last one's
>advise you'd want to consider. But I found that no 1 book gives all the
>information you seek. Each author, has his forte in a different area.
>--
>Don Weisman
>Abacus Furniture Repair
>
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Books on wood
Rick McQuay wrote:
>Can anyone suggest books which have a lot of information about trees and how
>the lumber is used (i.e. construction, chairs, handles, accents, etc.), as
>well as, technical info similiar to the above site?
World Woods in Color is chock full of pictures along with text
describing properties.
World Woods in Color
William Alexander Lincoln
Hardcover - 320 pages
December 1996
Linden Publishing
ISBN: 0941936201
Here's a link to Linden's Web page where you'll find other books.
http://www.lindenpub.com/title16.htm
From what I have seen the Woods of the World CD-ROM can't be beat.
Some other Web pages you may want to visit are:
Wood Names:
http://www.forestworld.com/cgi-bin/commonnames_mainframe.html
http://www.woodworking.co.uk/html/trees.html
http://www.toolcenter.com/wood/wow.html#anchor1245530
http://www.toolcenter.com/wood/species.html
Pictures & Properties:
http://www.millerpublishing.com/nw_hardwoods/glossary.html
http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/
http://www.wood-worker.com/properties.htm
http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/northamerican/
http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/tropical/home.html
http://www.curlymaple.com/wood.shtml
http://www.figuredhardwoods.com/photos.html
http://www.ukuleles.com/koawood.html
http://www.pennwood.com/
http://www.woodmosaic.com/sample.html
http://www.erinet.com/hardwood/full.html
http://www.connect.net/hollovar/cardhome.htm
http://www.woodweb.com/~treetalk/wowhome.html
http://www.toolcenter.com/wood/wow.html
http://www.woodweb.com/~treetalk/lapacho.html
http://www.woodweb.com/~treetalk/wowarchives.html
Samples & I. D. Kits:
http://www.connect.net/hollovar/cardhome.htm
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/w/i/s/wisconsincrafts.html
Keith Bohn
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:21 AM
To: Rick A. McQuay
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Books on wood
Hi Rick, Somewhere I have a book published by the U.S. Gov't that has all
sorts of stuff like modulus of elasticity, hardness, uses, etc. It devotes a
page or two to each species, is this what you're looking for? If it is, I can
root around and find the title for you.
Bill
"Rick A. McQuay" wrote:
> Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected everything from
> a single book. You are quite right of course, it's doubtful any one author
> could put everything about every wood into one book. All of the books I've
> seen so far are very general in nature and oriented toward familiarization.
> Now I want to get into the nuts and bolts, more out of curiosity than any
> practical reason right now.
> Rick McQuay
> --
>
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:17 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Books on wood
Yes actually, if you happen across it sometime, post the info, I'll keep an
eye out.
I'll be busy for a little while checking all the links that Keith posted and
I'm ordering the book "Understanding Wood" as suggested yesterday by Gerald.
Thanks to everyone for the tips.
Rick McQuay
--
>Hi Rick, Somewhere I have a book published by the U.S. Gov't that has all
>sorts of stuff like modulus of elasticity, hardness, uses, etc. It devotes
a
>page or two to each species, is this what you're looking for? If it is, I
can
>root around and find the title for you.
>Bill
From: DouggoB at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 9:03 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Bosch 1613 EVS router
Hi All,
I've had the Bosch 1613 EVS router for about 14 months and have been very
pleased with the purchase until recently. Apparantly the threads in the screw
holes for the screws to hold the sub base have been stripped and will no
longer hold a screw. I had used this router in a table and hand held and left
it in the table if that was the last use. I contacted the Bosch company and
they responded very promptly explaining that the only time that they have seen
this happen is when the router is used in a table, which they do not
recommend and say that it has not been tested for that use. I was curious has
anyone else experienced this problem with a Bosch or any other router and do
most people keep their routers in the table when not in use.
Doug
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 9:29 AM
To: DouggoB at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Bosch 1613 EVS router
Doug,
I think that for most manufacturers, you got the "standard line". They know
we use routers in tables, so that is a quick way to dodge responsibility.
My question to you: is your router table plate thicker than the sub base
that came on the router? In other words, did the threads strip because the
screws weren't long enough?
At a recent woodworking show, Frederik and I were talking to a PC rep while
admiring their big 3 1/4 hp fixed base router. He claimed that they had
designed the machine to be used in a router table! Can you get a new base
for a reasonable price? If you drill and tap, you'll have to redrill every
base you use.
Gary Cavener
From: Eddie Stassen [STASSEED at telkom.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 10:57 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Bosch 1613 EVS router
Hi,
I have the European equivalent of the 1613 EVS (GOF1300ACE) so I don't
know if there may be some subtle differences ibetween the models, but
when I built my router table I decided not to use the standard sub base
mounting holes out of fear that the threads my strip at some point. My
model has three other larger, non-threaded holes which I used to mount
my base plate. I used M6 countersunk screws with butterfly nuts on the
top to hold my acrylic (homemade) insert. The large size of this
baseplate is also very useful for freehand routing with the result that
I leave it on almost permanantly. When I'm not using the router I
simply pop it back into the table.
Eddie Stassen
stasseed at telkom.co.za
>>> <DouggoB at aol.com> 11/24 7:03 PM >>>
Hi All,
I've had the Bosch 1613 EVS router for about 14 months and have been
very
pleased with the purchase until recently. Apparantly the threads in the
screw
holes for the screws to hold the sub base have been stripped and will no
longer hold a screw. I had used this router in a table and hand held
and left
it in the table if that was the last use. I contacted the Bosch company
and
they responded very promptly explaining that the only time that they
have seen
this happen is when the router is used in a table, which they do not
recommend and say that it has not been tested for that use. I was
curious has
anyone else experienced this problem with a Bosch or any other router
and do
most people keep their routers in the table when not in use.
Doug
From: Trace Sutton [hsutton at atlcom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:02 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Bowl Saver Devices
Hi All, Greetings from Sunny Georgia where it is 18 degrees here (shouldnt
be THIS cold). I have just aquired a pink dogwood tree from my
father-in-laws yard that is incredibly colored (white brown and pink),
wildly figured, and spalted. I have decided that I dont want this to end up
as mainly shavings when I turn bowls from it on the lathe. I'm looking at
purchasing one of the bowl saving devices that cores out the center of bowl
blanks rather than just turning them away. I'm looking at the Kel
McNaughton system and the bowl saver. I was wondering if anyone out there
has had expeiences with either of these (or both) and can give me feedback.
There is a difference in price between the two, but at this point I want the
best one. I'm looking at ease of use, reliability, and safety.
Thanks In advance for any responses,
Trace Sutton
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:45 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Bowl Saver Devices
Hi, Trace:
I have no direct experience with any of the bowl saving systems, but
there are many who have that frequent the usenet newsgroup
rec.crafts.woodturning. If you cannot access usenet directly, you can
still do a search using http://www.dejanews.com/
There has been a fair bit of discussion of the different systems in
the last month or so.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 12:21 PM
To: Trace Sutton
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Bowl Saver Devices
Funny how timing works. I had never heard of any of
these things until the first ever copy of American
Woodworker I had ever seen jumped off of the supermarket
rack and attached itself to my shopping cart until I was
past the checker.
Anyway, American Woodworker, December 1998 #70 (which
might well still be on a rack near you) page 70, has an
article and reviews of both Bowl Saver and Kel McNaughton
System. Maybe that's what had sparked your interest, but if
not you should check it out.
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: WW: Box Hockey
Does anyone know of a game, played on a table, known as box hockey? I am
looking for a set of plans or a picture of this game that I recall from
childhood. I want to make a couple of these for grandchildren's
Christmas with my newly-cured white ash wood. Any suggestions for a
small but lively puck that could be used?
Thanks in advance
Glen, in Minneapolis, where real hockey is taken very seriously
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 10:19 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Box Hockey
Hi Glen,
Here are three sites, the 1st has plans available to build a regular
tabletop game.
The second has to be the Rolls Royce of such games and the third
looks like this guy might be able to supply more info.
http://colchester.auracom.com/vintagegames/#hockey
http://www.mysterydate.com/amber/hockey/info.html
http://www.cha.com/cgibin/wilma.cgi/bgl.885749985.html
Good luck.....Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can. where its 17c or 62f and
the best of Fall days.
----------
> From: Glen L Keener <newcutashlar at juno.com>
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: WW: Box Hockey
> Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 8:48 AM
>
>
> Does anyone know of a game, played on a table, known as box hockey?
I am
> looking for a set of plans or a picture of this game that I recall
from
> childhood. I want to make a couple of these for grandchildren's
> Christmas with my newly-cured white ash wood. Any suggestions for
a
> small but lively puck that could be used?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Glen, in Minneapolis, where real hockey is taken very seriously
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 3:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Box Hockey
Glen here is another site which might help, maybe.
http://www.galacticsun.com/boxhockey/abh.htm
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
----------
> From: Glen L Keener <newcutashlar at juno.com>
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: WW: Box Hockey
> Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 8:48 AM
>
>
> Does anyone know of a game, played on a table, known as box hockey?
I am
> looking for a set of plans or a picture of this game that I recall
from
> childhood. I want to make a couple of these for grandchildren's
> Christmas with my newly-cured white ash wood. Any suggestions for
a
> small but lively puck that could be used?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Glen, in Minneapolis, where real hockey is taken very seriously
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: seahawk at mediaone.net
Subject: Re: box joints and thanks for advice
tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
> I used to
> have a 10" Craftsman tablesaw that had an undersized arbor where the threads
> were. The shoulder of the arbor, where a sinlge blade, or the inside cutter
> of a stacked dado set sits, was ok - read - the correct diameter. However,
> after that 1/8" (or so) shoulder ended and the threads started, the arbor
> diameter decreased.
All the more reason for using your Stack Dado set with the large thick
washer flange the saw came with to eliminate this problem. If you then
cannot use your stack dado "fully loaded" for the correct dado width you
want, your arbor is too short. A not uncommon item with many saws.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:33 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Boy Scout Project - need quick finish
This Wednesday, my son's cub scout den (2nd graders) will be making recipe
holders which consist of a spring-type clothes pin glued to the top of a
bottom stand assembly.
The bottom stand consists of two pieces of black walnut that interlock with
a sliding dovetail. The project coordinator wanted to use pine and spray
paint. I suggested walnut with a butcher's wax finish, and explained that
the cost difference per unit of the materials was only very slight, and
giving these kids spray paint and asking the kids to take them home wrapped
up 10 minutes later as holiday presents was a big mistake. They were swayed
to my thinking.
But, I'm thinking now that a little bit of mineral oil prior to the wax, or
salad bowl oil, or walnut oil, or other safe oil, the wood would darken up a
little bit more and even look better.
So, the question to you all is: how soon after applying any of these oils
can the item be "kid" handled, and how long after the oil is put on, can wax
be applied? If this would require any amount of time, I'll leave out the
oil.
Thanks, Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:53 AM
To: 'tburch at cdbsoftware.com'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Boy Scout Project - need quick finish
Todd,
Just a week ago, I made a few cutting boards out of hard maple and white
oak. I used regular walnut oil - salad dressing - and if you do not mind
getting your hands greasy, you can handle it right away. I wiped the excess
on one about 1/2 hour later, the other I forgot and left couple of days.
Either one turned out good and you can handle it a day later and have no
greasy feeling to it. Creates nice smooth - silky feeling. I sanded with
grain just before application (220). I like walnut oil more than linseed,
but that is just my preference.
Zdenek
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <tburch at cdbsoftware.com> [tburch at cdbsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: RE: Bulk Extension Cord
Thanks!
Here's what I've come up with:
Color Code Catalog# Brand
Orange SJTW-A 378 Woods
Yellow SJEOW-A 884 Woods
>From what you've reported, and a quick trip to the belden site you mentioned
(thank you), looks like "SJ", or "Service Junior" just means 18-10 guage,
.030" conductor insulation, 2 to 4 wire, etc.
"T" means thermoplastic, "E" means elastomere (rubber). "T" has a 60 degree
centigrade rating, while "E" has a 105 degree rating. "O" means oil
resistant jacket (while "OO" would mean oil resistant jacket and oil
resistant insulation). And, as you said, "W-A" means outdoor use OK.
Now, the good news. I bought the spool (250 feet) of yellow SJEOW-A for
right at about $.50 a foot, and, looks like it's the better cord too!
Thanks for the "direction".
Todd in Houston, where it's another beautiful, sunny day. Gonna hit another
record high again today. Yesterday it was 98F.
----------
From: tbadowsk at en.com
To: Todd Burch
Subject: RE: Bulk Extension Cord
Date: September 28, 1998 9:13PM
<<File Attachment: ENVELOPE.TXT>>
The ratings are for the cord construction, and are UL types:
>From the BELDEN website:
http://www.belden.com/products/catalog/help/TechULDesignation.htm
> snip
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <tburch at cdbsoftware.com> [tburch at cdbsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Bulk Extension Cord
Good morning all.
I'm making some multi-outlet extension cords for the garage. I'll make a
cord with, say, 20 feet of cord with the male plug on one end, and a twin
duplex (TD) receptacle box on the other. Out of the other side of the TD
box another, say, 20 feet, then a second TD box, and then finally a length
of cord, with a female plug on it (a "pigtail").
At Builders Square they have two flavors of this bulk cord. One is orange
and the other yellow. I asked the person in the electrical dept. what was
the difference between the two. He said "Color." The orange was $.99 a
foot and the yellow was $.91 a foot. The orange was marked (something like)
SJWA and the yellow marked (something like) SJFEOW (sorry for not having the
exact markings). So, I figure there is more difference than color. What's
the difference? (Both are 12 guage, 3 wire).
Thanks in Advance, Todd Burch in Houston, where it's suppose to hit 95
degrees today, and the leaves don't hardly turn, save the Chinese Tallows.
Although last fall was the prettiest fall I've ever seen (been here since
'75)
From: Paul Warner [pjwarner at erols.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 6:37 PM
To: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Bummed with Cherry Finish
I began finishing a coffee table made with Cherry. The plan is to
coat with Watco Danish Oil, a few coats of shellac then top with varish
(maybe low-sheeen polyurethane for protection purposes ) .
I've sanded down to 320 but and applied oil yet the blocthes are still
bad; Is it possbile that the resin deposits are so bad that more sanding
won't help ?
Or should I try the shellac first, then the varish ? I'm assuming I
should use blonde shellac
so the varish will bond better because of the lower wax content in the
more refined shellac.
I also ruled out the Bartley cherry gel stain as I didn't like the
appearance.
Thanks,
Paul
Thanks,
From: Ron Odum [rodum at worldnetla.net]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:29 PM
To: Paul Warner; The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Bummed with Cherry Finish
Paul...You may want to look at this URL from Fine Woodworking...got a good write up on cherry finishes....Hope it helps..
Ron
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/cherry/1.htm
From: Paul Warner [pjwarner at erols.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 5:48 AM
To: Ron Odum
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Bummed with Cherry Finish
Thats the kicker, I read the article after the boards were glued up for
the top of the coffe table..
Ron Odum wrote:
> Paul...You may want to look at this URL from Fine Woodworking...got a
> good write up on cherry finishes....Hope it
> helps..Ron http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/cherry/1.htm
>
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:40 AM
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD, I
can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:02 AM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com; Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Zdenek, Stephen:
I would like to have the drawing as an AutoCAD file, please.
Thanks,
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [mailto:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:40 AM
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD, I
can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:10 AM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Bunkbed
Hi Stephen,
Yes, I would also like a copy of the .PDF format file.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow <sbigelow at bigfoot.com>
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
<Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com>
Cc: Wood <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 09:02 AM
Subject: Bunkbed
>Zdenek,
>
>Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD
file.
>
>If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have
AutoCAD, I
>can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can
view....
>
>
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:02 PM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Bunkbed
Oh Wow, ...Stephen, ...can I have the PDF from you when you get the bed
from Zdnek, please?
Thanks a hundred.
Frederik
Stephen K. Bigelow wrote:
>
> Zdenek,
>
> Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
>
> If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD, I
> can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
From: Blakebj [blakebj at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:26 PM
To: 'sbigelow at bigfoot.com'
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Stephen,
I do not have AutoCad, but I do have the Adobe Acrobat reader. I was the
initial person to ask for the information, and would love the specs.
I would appreciate it if you could forward a .pdf file once you get the
AutoCad file.
Please forward it to blakebj at earthlink.net
Thanks,
Blake
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [SMTP:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:40 AM
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD, I
can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:16 PM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Stephen,
Number of people asked for the file, so I uploaded it to:
http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg
<http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg>
Have fun!
Zdenek
P.S. It is about 113 k, so not too large. It is 3D so conversion may not be
as simple, but doable.
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [SMTP:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:40 AM
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD,
I
can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
From: David Cohen [imageinc1 at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:24 PM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Bunkbed
Hi Stephen,
I would like to take up your offer. If you could get me the plans as a
pdf. file that would be great.
At 07:40 AM 11/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Zdenek,
>
>Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD file.
>
>If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have AutoCAD, I
>can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can view....
>
>
Sincerely,
David Cohen
Roswell, Ga.
imageinc1 at mindspring.com
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 4:57 AM
To: 'gcavener at teleport.com'
Cc: 'sbigelow at bigfoot.com'
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Gary,
The drawing is made in 3D and so that is why you see the wire frame. You can
extract the individual views and enable the appropriate layers to view
dimensions and so on. To generate a complete acrobat file with all
dimensions would require some time. Someone offered to generate one and I am
short on time for the next week or so. It was Stephen Bigelow
[SMTP:sbigelow at bigfoot.com] <mailto:[SMTP:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]> , so try to
ask him, if he could do it. There are also probably some dimensions missing,
as I do not do such a great job designing. I usually stop at the point,
where I can build.
Hope this help. If Stephen can't help, let me know and I will put it on my
to do list.
Zdenek
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Cavener [SMTP:gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:47 PM
To: Mestenhauser, Zdenek
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
You got me this time. I just popped your ACAD drawing up, and all I
see is
a wireframe drawing. I understand that there is probably more there
than I
know how to look at. Please send my your acrobat file. It probably
won't
require as much rocket science of me.
TIA,
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [mailto:Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:16 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Gary,
Number of people asked for the file, so I uploaded it to:
http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg
<http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg>
Have fun!
Zdenek
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Cavener [SMTP:gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:02 AM
To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com; Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: RE: Bunkbed
Zdenek, Stephen:
I would like to have the drawing as an AutoCAD file,
please.
Thanks,
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [mailto:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:40 AM
To: Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com
Cc: Wood
Subject: Bunkbed
Zdenek,
Great looking bed! I would also like to have the AutoCAD
file.
If anyone else is interested in the file, but doesn't have
AutoCAD,
I
can translate it to adobe pdf format, which anyone can
view....
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 9:13 AM
To: 'sbigelow at bigfoot.com'; Wood; imageinc1 at mindspring.com; blakebj at earthlink.net; frederik at gorge.net; moose at northrim.net
Subject: RE: Bunkbed update
Here I am to make a few comments,
The file is a 3D design, that is the way I prefer designing stuff. There ARE
also dimensions, you just do not have the layers turned on. You do not need
to dimension most parts, but at the same time, many times, I do not
dimension all details, as I am able to work from sketchy drawings.
I also have to agree with you that AutoCad is a lousy software as far as
user friendliness, but it is almost the industry standard, although fading.
I do not know it very well either, as I use it only for my home projects. If
you give me couple of weeks I could generate the pdf files, but I am way too
busy now.
Zdenek
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [SMTP:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:22 AM
To: Wood; imageinc1 at mindspring.com; blakebj at earthlink.net;
frederik at gorge.net; moose at northrim.net
Subject: Bunkbed update
All:
Recently Zdenek posted a "bunkbed" (actual bunk on top, desk and
shelves
below) AutoCAD drawing to http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg,
and
I suggested that I could convert the drawing to Adobe .pdf format.
This can be done quite easily, since all I have to do is "print" the
drawing to a .pdf file with the adobe pdf printer driver. However,
what
I did not realize on this drawing was that it was a 3-D wire
diagram.
So, when I "print" the diagram to the .pdf file, all you would get
when
you viewed it would be the 3D wire diagram. No dimensions are
included.
Different view are there, but it might be a little hard to
understand.
I do have AutoCAD R14, but I am not proficient enough in AutoCAD to
do
the dimensioning for all the views, etc. (I spent 3 hours last
night
trying.) I'm starting to think that I might need to take a class in
AutoCAD just to learn how to use it, which really sucks because I've
never had to take a class on how to use *any* software in the past
15
years that I've been using computers. Call me stupid, but any
software
that requires a class or a book to learn how to do the most basic
stuff
is not well written software, in my opinion.
But anyway, back to the subject at hand: If someone can generate
the
different views and dimension them, I would be happy to convert to
.pdf
format. Or, if anyone would like the different *undimensioned*
views in
.pdf format, I could do that as well with what I have. These would
give
you the general idea, but you would have to make up your own
dimensions.
I don't want to generate the undimensioned views if nobody is
interested, though.
Regards,
-Steve
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 8:22 AM
To: Wood; imageinc1 at mindspring.com; blakebj at earthlink.net; frederik at gorge.net; moose at northrim.net
Subject: Bunkbed update
All:
Recently Zdenek posted a "bunkbed" (actual bunk on top, desk and shelves
below) AutoCAD drawing to http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/Bunk_bed.dwg, and
I suggested that I could convert the drawing to Adobe .pdf format.
This can be done quite easily, since all I have to do is "print" the
drawing to a .pdf file with the adobe pdf printer driver. However, what
I did not realize on this drawing was that it was a 3-D wire diagram.
So, when I "print" the diagram to the .pdf file, all you would get when
you viewed it would be the 3D wire diagram. No dimensions are included.
Different view are there, but it might be a little hard to understand.
I do have AutoCAD R14, but I am not proficient enough in AutoCAD to do
the dimensioning for all the views, etc. (I spent 3 hours last night
trying.) I'm starting to think that I might need to take a class in
AutoCAD just to learn how to use it, which really sucks because I've
never had to take a class on how to use *any* software in the past 15
years that I've been using computers. Call me stupid, but any software
that requires a class or a book to learn how to do the most basic stuff
is not well written software, in my opinion.
But anyway, back to the subject at hand: If someone can generate the
different views and dimension them, I would be happy to convert to .pdf
format. Or, if anyone would like the different *undimensioned* views in
.pdf format, I could do that as well with what I have. These would give
you the general idea, but you would have to make up your own dimensions.
I don't want to generate the undimensioned views if nobody is
interested, though.
Regards,
-Steve
From: JOHN [jrbsr at bellatlantic.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 6:32 PM
To: Rick A. McQuay
Cc: (1)WoodworkingList
Subject: Re: Bunkbed update
Rick A. McQuay wrote:
> Point being, if you want to do more than play with it, I'd suggest taking a
> class.
>
Rick,
I didn't see Steve's post but I thought this might help.
I don't know what version AutoCad you'r working with, but I taught it for a
couple of years using V10 & V 11. It's a powerful program but....
I came across a book "AutoCad Fundamentals" by Mark Schwendau. It's
published by West Publishing Co. It was excellent for my high school kids. BTW
a went to school for 40 hours training too.
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 6:14 AM
To: 'gcavener at teleport.com'; mjr at inconcert.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Bunkbed update
Mike,
I am sorry the conversion is not working for you. I am not familiar with the
package you are using and so can't be of help. I assume the file is good, as
others got to open it. Because there was quite a few of you asking for the
plans, I scanned and posted the drawings that I used for making the bed. I
do not dimension all the parts, as I make them fit in process. Based on what
material I have. So you will have to be creative and fill in the blanks.
After all, you are getting, what you paid for. 8-).
You can get the scanned file at:
http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bunkbed.pdf
<http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bunkbed.pdf>
it is 218k file, so it will take some time to download.
For the general info, I used the bedrail hardware for all the long pieces,
to be able to break down the bed into flat pieces - headboard, footboard,
shelf unit, sides and the ladder. Most joints are M&T with a few biscuits
for convenience where the strength is not critical. I used construction
grade 2x4's dried to bedroom conditions - in the bedroom, which my wife
liked a lot - planed and lightly sanded. The finish is Danish oil with water
based poly on top.
The ladder is dovetailed - I made a little fixture for the slot size and
angle to keep constant. Used a bushing in a router with this template.
The table is rescued from the curb - remains of an old desk - oak veneered
particle board. Had some dents in the top, so I made hard maple inlays of
the Moon and Saturn shape, which is a nice feature.
Ever since I installed this bed in my sons room, he became organized. Cleans
his room and stocks toys to the shelf. Before than, we could not even walk
through the room. Can't guarantee it will work for your kids though 8-).
The total cost was about $60. Most expensive was the hardware.
Hope this will help.
Zdenek
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:59 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Mike Bridges
Cc: TheOaklistserv
Subject: CA, note for Mike and another for Don
Hi Mike,
Have you tried using the accelerators on the glue. I use all
three types of the CA glue. The medium and thick viscosities are
more for gap filling and generally require the use of
accelerators to get the glue to set up.
Another note:
Don,
You may also want to call Ron Juhnke at Ron's Trains in Albany,
Oregon. We go to the same church and I just happened to ask him
about it last Sunday. He told me he sells the 2 ounce CA for
$4.99. I am pretty sure he sells the Satellite City CA, but
haven't been to his place to see. Now the question why didn't I
buy it from him?......I didn't know until after I had ordered
mine from Sheldons. I will get out there at some point and check
it out. In the mean time, if you want to call him, his number
is: 541.791.1260, same number for FAX. website:
www.proaxis.com/~ron50/
Terry Gerros
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:24 PM
To: Terry Gerros
Cc: Mike Bridges; TheOaklistserv
Subject: Re: CA, note for Mike and another for Don
Yep, just called them at 7:15 PM Central time. They were closed. The
URL, www.proaxis.com/~ron50/ "is not found on this server". I appreciate
the thoughts anyhow.Thanks.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Dahl, David @ Green Bay [GREENBAY!GREENBAY!ddahl at dfvcwi.attmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:44 PM
To: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: CADD Programs, etc
Folks:
Happened upon a site which you may be interested in. Contains
applications for downloading dealing with CADD software, viewers, addins,
etc. Site is:
http://www.simtel.net/simtel.net/win95/cad.html
One which caught my eye was an addin to Internet Explorer to view
autocadd DWG files.
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: CDWeinke at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 4:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Campaign-style Furniture Hardware
i've been trying to find a source for campaign-style hardware. i've had no
luck using the search engines. The only fleeting reference was to "Van Dyke
Restoration" . Does anybody have a web address or phone # for them...or any
other ideas for a source? i recall having had one of their (Van Dyke's)
catalogs many years ago...but it long since hit the circular file.
thanks,
charlie
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 6:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Campaign-style Furniture Hardware
Their phone # is 800-558-1234
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
At 07:48 AM 11/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>i've been trying to find a source for campaign-style hardware. i've had no
>luck using the search engines. The only fleeting reference was to "Van Dyke
>Restoration" . Does anybody have a web address or phone # for them...or any
>other ideas for a source? i recall having had one of their (Van Dyke's)
>catalogs many years ago...but it long since hit the circular file.
>
>thanks,
>charlie
>
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 8:10 PM
To: vistin at earthlink.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Campbell Hausfield website.
Binks is not Binks anymore it is Binks Sames but http://www.binks.com
will get you there.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
Steve Williamson wrote:
>
> Yall have Campbell Hausfield website?
> How bout Binks while yer at it.
> Thanx
> Steve
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Can woodworkers design?
Or can designers woodwork?
This is a subject of strong discussion in my local pub where there are many
woodworkers and few designers. I am a sort of designer and I enjoy
woodworking, but my design abilities are to do with the printed word, not
chairs, tables, cabinets and stuff.
In the many mags we purchase, you'all have to admit that many of the
projects look like shit.
Where woodworkers copy existing designs (like Norm) things usually turn out
OK. But when a woodworker wants to do something new, has he the skills? And
when a designer conceptualises something daring, bold and brilliant, can it
be made in wood without falling apart or being crushed under the weight of
the above average bum? (Ass in American)
Why do such questions haunt me?
Do woodworkers ever do courses in design? Do designers woodwork?
The fact is that great and original pieces of furniture and sculpture or
whatever came from those who knew both religions, so to speak.
Or is it just that designers and manufacturers are different species?
Those who can woodwork and those who can't design. True or false or about
face.
Confused.
Ray
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 5:49 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
At the risk of being perceived as dumb:
I have recently built a router table, but haven't finished the stand/frame.
I am building it with 4 @1 1/2 X 1 3/4" legs, with 3/4 X 3" stringers
holding it all together. The stand has no solid sides, front or back. The
router table cabinet sits down into the top of it, resting on the stringers,
with another cabinet below, about 10" up off the floor. The material is
white oak. My problem is in cutting the mortises in the legs for the
stringers. The 1X stock is 3/4" thick. I am making my tenons 1/4 X 2 1/2".
So we have a 1/4" mortise, 1" deep. I am using an Oldham Viper Up-Cut
Spiral, solid carbide 1/4" X 1" bit. I am removing an eighth to 3/16" per
pass. I have gone through 2 of these spendy hummers so far, and I'm barely
half done. My local HD, with their "no hassle" return policy has replaced
the bit twice now. I'm about ready to go back out and make sawdust, but
thought I would check in with you mortise masters before I do it again. Are
these bits normally this fragile?
I'm starting to think I would be better off using a mortise attachment in a
drill press. That would be pushing Santa pretty hard.
Gary Cavener
Are people more violently opposed to fur rather than leather because it's
much easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Hi Gary,
Your experience is unusual. I've had two such bits. The first was a
CMT that cut about 200 feet of grooves and 50 mortises before it
succumbed to a piece of nail imbedded in a new sheet of oak plywood. At
the time, it was cutting as new. The replacement was from MLCS, and has
cut about 50 mortises and many feet of grooves, mostly in hardwood. It
is still as new. I like the spiral upcut bit because it clears chips
much better than a straight bit. I take 1/4" cuts per pass, and have
had no problems. All of my mortise cuts have been in red oak. For a
hobby woodworker, I do a lot of mortises, and I made a jig for that
purpose. I'd be happy to send you a JPEG photo of the jig if your
browser can receive it. I'd say go for a refund instead of an exchange,
and try the MLCS. I own over $500 worth of CMT bits, but MLCS is half
the price and I haven't seen a quality difference. The 1/4" x 1" solid
carbide upcut bit is less than $20. Regards,
Gerald
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 7:02 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
There is no way these bits at only 1" long (I'm assuming this is the
cutting lentgh) should be breaking while cutting 1/8" - 1/4" passes.
I have used Bosch and other 1/4" spiral upcut bits for 100's of hours
and taken deeper passes than this and never broken one.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:37 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Gary;
I would go with 1/2" mortises. IMO thinning down a 3/4" rail to 1/4" is
weakening the structure too much and a 1/2" bit has a lot more strength
against breakage.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 6:39 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Gary,
Both Gerald and Mike apparently knew right away that the bit's were
breaking. I didn't relate "fragile" as breaking. I thought you were
toasting them. The breakage doesn't make much sense to me. I suggest
that your proceedure is causing the breakage and that the bit is not at
fault. Probably either your movements are jerky causing the bit to bend,
which it can't do, or perhaps it's being guided erratically causing it
to catch, bounce and bend.
I'll ask somewhat differently, is the cutting smooth as it travels in
length? Does the router speed slow down and speed up again? Is it making
a steady noise during the cutting? Do you think it's possible you are
feeding too quickly? Since Gerald and Mike didn't mention it, I assume
with an Up Spiral bit, it's okay if the cut is enclosed when attempting
to go that depth. Is the bit inside the collet as much as it should be?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 7:52 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Don, it's OK for an enclosed cut. That's why I mentioned cutting
grooves, but the first cut on a mortise regardless of the final width is
also enclosed. Your point on the grip of the collet is well taken. My
routers vary 2:1 on the length of shaft that is gripped. The greater
the grip length of the collet, the more secure the bit. Regards,
Gerald
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 8:01 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Don,
Thanks for the speedy reply. I have my PC 690 mounted under a plastic
laminate covered (both sides) 1 1/2" thick MDF table that supports the
workpiece very well the fence is very solidly mounted with a high molecular
density vinyl, 3/4" thick by 4" high face, which is much taller than the
workpiece. The bits snap when I am feedin the workpiece very smoothly. I
don't get the same constant pitched scream I get with maple, cherry or MDF,
because of oaks grain pattern. I don't like the sound at all. It doesn't
sound good, but it isn't affected much by the speed or smoothness of the
feed. If anything, I'm underfeeding because I'm so paranoid about breaking
the bit. I don't know if you are familiar with the Porter Cable collet, but
I think it is very secure. I take the collet out of the router, slip the
bit in down to the bottom and then back it out about 1/16". I notice that
if I bottom them out the collet doesn't hold as securely.
I've been using routers for years, but have never used one in exactly this
way before. I agree that it might have made more sense to use a 3/8 or 1/2"
mortise. Next time, if at all possible, I will. I think these mortises,
when I'm done will be plenty strong, but 1/4" mortises are not now my
favorite.
Thanks again,
Gary Cavener
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 8:17 PM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: RE: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Gerald,
The bit is well secured. The unmachined part of the bit is completely
within the collet. The bits snap about an eighth of an inch above the
collet. Exactly the same place on both bits. I'm going to look at another
brand this week to see if they are all so fragile looking. When I first
chucked the bit, I knew I would have to be careful. There's not much there.
Regarding Don's question regarding smoothness of feed: I plant both my
hands on the table and workpiece and inch through. I'm 6' 1", 240 lbs, and
my arms are as big as the average leg. The workpiece ain't getting away
from me.
Gary
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 9:27 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Maybe someone can give you some help, I can only commiserate. I've broken a
number of carbide edged steel bits cutting 1/4" mortises, and the very first
time I tried to cut a 1/4" mortise with a mortising attachment on my drill
press: I buckled the chisel....
Bill
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 9:12 PM
To: Bill Neely
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Bill,
The only difference I spot here is: these are not carbide edged steel bits.
I wish they were. They are solid carbide spiral bits. More expensive.
More fragile. I think that the 1/4" factor is a problem. Maybe a poor
choice of bit manufacturer, too. To satisfy my curiosity, what brand of
mortising chisel? If Delta, the expensive, one at a timers, or the cheaper,
together in a package type?
Gary
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 3:58 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Once upon a time there was a project that required a SL of mortises and I
decided to use a 1/4", solid carbide, spiral UC bit. I was only working
with pine and before I knew it, 3 of them had snapped off like they were
toothpicks. I wasn't doing anything aggressive with them such as, forcing
the cut or removing too much material...they just broke. The brand was
Whiteside but after the third one had broken, my supplier (Montana Tool
Co.) refused to replace any more (no surprise there).
>I'm starting to think I would be better off using a mortise attachment in a
>drill press. That would be pushing Santa pretty hard.
I went back to using a single flute bit and finished the project with it.
Needless to say, Whiteside left me wondering too.
Joe
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 5:21 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Gary,
Your above sounds okay to me, excepting for the scream part and cause.
When I first read your note, I immediatly thought the depth of cut was
the cause. Since neither Gerald nor Mike who are familiar with the bits
apparently thought that not excessive, I let it be.
Looking at my own "up bit" which is NOT solid carbide, it has a point
and rub collar to give support/guidance after entry. Which is apparently
not for slot cutting. (but then what IS it for?) The twists do cause the
thinnest portion of the bit, to be thinner. My unused steel "down
spiral" has no special plunge/rub collar. Your description and set up
seems quite adequate and is puzzling me as to why there is a problem.
Just for the hell of it if no one comes up with an answer, why not call
the mfrs. customer technical service and ask them? It just might get you
the proper answer.
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:11 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: carbide spiral upcut router bit breakage
Don,
I think your last idea is the best. I'll try to track Oldham down and ask
them what they think is happening.
Gary
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: carts etc. ; frame joints: SD screws; biscuit, mort. & tennon
In making heavy duty vendors carts and wheelbarrows, is it substantial
enough to use various large 1x pine stock with 2x4 pine for the frame and
handles? Also, would it be strong enough using #8 (2 1/2inch) SD Deck screws
or would it be advisable to use mortise & tenon, or maybe joiner
biscuits? Thanks, Steve &
Lisa Digiacomo
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 2:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cedar Chest Kits
>I am new to this list and have enjoyed all the information. I am looking for
>mail order companies that sell cedar chest kits. Does anyone know where I
>might look? Years ago I used to buy from companies in the Midwest but have
>lost their names and numbers.
Try contacting some of these sources.
http://www.shakerworkshops.com/contents.htm#COMPLETE
http://www.ambungalow.com/abmag/abcoll1.htm
http://www.adamswoodproducts.com/
http://www.woodchairs.com/kits.htm
http://bartley.omni-centre.com/
http://www.pionet.net/~tomcox/home.htm
http://www.scrollsaw.com/1998directory/ff.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:32 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: Re: Chauta sample
-----Original Message-----
From: RLA <RLA at the.usp.org>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: What are you working on this month
> The Chauta sample had the same flecks in it but the
> color was almost black. The manager indicated (through an
> interpreter) that the sample had been on display for a long time. I
> would like to keep the amber color. I am considering lacquer for a
> finish to help ward off the effects of air darkening the wood.
What's to say that the change in color is not due to UV light? Maybe a UV
inhibitor wouldn't be a bad idea either, or at least display the bowl out of
direct sunlight.
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 11:23 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: cheap deals on Makita recon tools
I just ordered a few items from these folks. 1/4 sheet palm sander for $24,
etc.
They are running a web special which ends today.
http://makita-direct.com/
No affiliation, just a customer .... etc. etc. etc.
John
From: Yves Messier [mestech at istar.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:55 AM
To: Woodworkers of America
Subject: Cherry
I have decided that my nephews and neices are all getting either a wooden
furniture or toy for Christmas. I found a cute litle rocking chair in � The
Best of Wood Book 2 � and it calls for cherry. I haven't investigated yet
but have a good idea that this is a wood that will be hard to find in
Montreal. What substitute wood y'all suggest I use?
Yves
Jack of all trades, master of none.
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 12:39 PM
To: mestech at istar.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cherry
Hey Ives-- A good substitute for cherry would be birch or poplar. Birch would
stain like cherry and it works more easily,(no burning). Poplar is excellent
if you paint the chair. If you can work around the green heartwood and use
just the very white sapwood , you can stain it also. Yellow or white pine will
work and be somewhat less expensive. These are to my mind paintable choices ,
although staining is not too bad if the grain is attractive and you want to do
it that way. Good luck :-)
Bob A -- Indiana
mrasp at aol.com
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:40 PM
To: mestech at istar.ca; Woodworkers of America
Subject: Re: Cherry
I'm partial to maple, which, in Canada, should be plentiful, right? I find
it pleasant to the eye, and easy enough to work. Cherry is fun to work
with - although the hand planing I did was not for the faint of heart. Lots
of light strokes! Maple can - dare I say it? - be painted, but I prefer it
finished in a clear oil. Hard, durable, tough...
David Dahl
Appleton, WI
From: Blakebj [blakebj at earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 12:10 PM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: Childrens Bed Plans
My sister-in-law has asked me to build my nephew a raised bed. Sort of
like a bunk bed without the bottom bunk. She wanted to put a desk and a
small toy chest underneath.
I think I remember seeing something like this a few years ago at (bite my
tongue) IKEA.
Does anyone have any ideas or know where I might be able to obtain some
plans.
Thanks in advance
Blake Bjordahl
Blakebj at erthlink.net
From: CDWeinke at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 2:29 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Childrens Bed Plans
Blake -
I converted my children's bunk beds to individual "raised" beds when I moved
into a new house and they each got their own bedroom. The bed headboard and
footboard legs were 3/4 x 4, and I used 1 1/2 x 4 material for the leg
extensions, cutting a half lap in the leg extensions so I could carriage bolt
the extensions onto the original legs. In that way I could always return to
using them as a normal bed (which my son has subsequently done). I used a
single carriage bolt between the leg and its extension in the middle of the
half lap, and used a blind dowel pin (unglued) above and below the carriage
bolt so I had only a single hole through the original leg, yet the leg
extensions wouldn't rack.The half lap was long enough so that when viewed from
the side, the legs appeared to be a consistent thickness. Because I left the
underside of the beds completely open, with no cross-bracing, I felt the bed
might be unstable, so I lag screwed the bed side to the wall. I had withstood
multiple children jumping, with no collapse!
Hope this gives you some ideas.
charlie
From: Doug_Young at peoplesoft.com
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 2:49 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Childrens Bed Plans
Ok, Zdenek, where did you find a kid who kept a room so neat. I have 4
boys, and I know that the bed would be a shambles -- not construction wise,
but if you look at the link and see all the toys mostly on the shelves, all
the bedding actually on the bed...unbelievable...and that lamp wouldn't
last more than about 3 minutes in my house :)
On a more serious note, I would like that AutoCad file, as the bed itself
is impressive...almost as much as your son!
(OK...OK...there are at least some papers on the floor...almost like real
life :)
Doug
"Mestenhauser, Zdenek" <mailto:Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com> on 11/12/98 09:18:55
AM
To: blakebj at earthlink.net
cc: "Woodworking, Post" <woodworking at theoak.com> (bcc: Doug Young)
Subject: RE: Childrens Bed Plans
I designed and made one last spring for my son. You can see the picture at:
http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bunkbed.jpg
<http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bunkbed.jpg>
I have the AutoCad file, if you wish to have it, I could send it.
Zdenek
-----Original Message-----
From: Blakebj [SMTP:blakebj at earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 2:10 PM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: Childrens Bed Plans
My sister-in-law has asked me to build my nephew a raised bed. Sort
of
like a bunk bed without the bottom bunk. She wanted to put a desk
and a
small toy chest underneath.
I think I remember seeing something like this a few years ago at
(bite my
tongue) IKEA.
Does anyone have any ideas or know where I might be able to obtain
some
plans.
Thanks in advance
Blake Bjordahl
Blakebj at erthlink.net
From: Leif solberg [leifs at nanosecond.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 8:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Childrens table and chairs
I am looking for plans to build a table and a couple of chairs for my
granddaughter. TIA Leif Solberg Gardnerville, NV
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:01 AM
To: 'Leif solberg'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Childrens table and chairs
Leif,
This web page has a great set of free plans which may fit your needs.
I have made several of these.
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9607HIFMP.html
John
john.e.mark at intel.com
IT Client Engineering http://www-ce.intel.com/index.htm
THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
The information contained in this document represents the current view of
John Mark on the issues discussed as of the date of publication. Because Mr.
Mark must respond to change in market conditions, it should not be
interpreted to be a commitment on the part of Mr. Mark and he cannot
guarantee the accuracy of any information presented after the date of
publication.
INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED 'AS IS' WITHOUT WARRANTY
OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE
IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND
FREEDOM FROM INFRINGEMENT.
The user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and the use of this
document. This document may be copied and distributed subject to the
following conditions:
1. All text must be copied without modification and all pages must be
included
2. All copies must contain this copyright notice and any other notices
provided therein
3. This document may not be distributed for profit
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leif solberg [SMTP:leifs at nanosecond.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 8:42 AM
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Childrens table and chairs
>
>
>
> I am looking for plans to build a table and a couple of chairs for my
> granddaughter. TIA Leif Solberg Gardnerville, NV
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:55 PM
To: 'Leif solberg'
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Childrens table and chairs
> > > I am looking for plans to build a table and a couple of chairs for my
> > > granddaughter. TIA Leif Solberg Gardnerville, NV
Lief,
I once decided to make some childrens furniture. I figured half size
(sounded logical to me) would do it. The furniture came out so small
that only a toddler could use it. And what toddler will sit still at a
table and chair set for more than a minute? My next set of plans were
scaled to 2/3rds. Maybe if I built the stuff I could tell you if that
works out better. :-)
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ben Fink [benfink at redrose.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:56 PM
To: Leif solberg; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Childrens table and chairs
Hi Leif,
I just finished building a table and two chairs for my grandaughter.
The plan I used is in the form of color "jpg" file. You will need
a color printer, or a friend with a color printer. I can send it to
you or anyone how needs it.
I am realy tickled with the way the table and chairs turned out.
Ben Fink AKA benfink at redrose.net
Leif solberg wrote:
>
> I am looking for plans to build a table and a couple of chairs for my
> granddaughter. TIA Leif Solberg Gardnerville, NV
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 8:17 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: 1077602202
Subject: Choice of material
Hey Guys!! One of the most difficult problems that has baffled me is when I
ask the customer "what do you want me to make it out of "; the answer many
times is that the job must look good and not "tacky". Now in furniture it's
usually easy to pick a wood that will be pleasing and not cost a arm and a leg
. But in this instance,I'm asked to construct an outdoor swing or glider,
supported by two A frames and 4x4 between them.
The swing is easy in poplar and suitably finished in a weather resistant
coating of spar varnish or the like. It's the structure that has me stopped.
Pressure treated fir or pine is just plain ugly. Poplar has been suggested and
can be had in suitable sizes to do the job. The latest was to use redwood. But
the cost is very high and I'm not convinced the strength and hardness would be
adequate.
The swing and supports will be installed at a prestigious bed and breakfast on
the front or side lawn, being very visible to all. So the requirement that it
be attractive and not crude or "tacky" is well founded.
Any suggestions will be gratefully received and evaluated. Thank you!! :)
Bob A--Indiana
mrasp at aol.com
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 9:34 PM
To: MRASP at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: 1077602202
Subject: RE: Choice of material
I'm possibly reaching here a bit, but why not use white oak? It's strong
and weather resistant. and not too expensive.
Gary
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 7:13 PM
To: MRASP at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; 1077602202
Subject: Re: Choice of material
I would suggest you take another look at redwood. It is
naturally impervious to weather and bugs, and needs no
finish to survive in the wild. All I know about it's
strenth is that here in California, a redwood framed house
is one that was usually build 80 years ago and is usually
good for the next 150 years.
Here in California the word "deck" is always preceded by
the word "redwood", as in "redwood deck." Anyone who makes
a deck of anything but redwood is obviously in it for the
short haul.
For the seats themselves, use something other than
redwood, and figure on replacing them (even if spar varnish
is used). Redwood splinters are not good in human skin, or
at least a lot less good than most other wood splinters.
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 2:59 PM
To: mcg at pacbell.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: classifieds
Try "The Oak Internet Directory", Kip's new page. Has quite a few
listings!
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:42:11 -0700 MCG <mcg at pacbell.net> writes:
>Does anyone know of a classified section for used power tools on the
>internet? Looking to buy and sell. Thanks
>
>
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 2:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: classifieds
>Does anyone know of a classified section for used power tools on the
>internet? thanks
Here are a few.
http://www.execpc.com/~rimco/Index.html
http://www.woodmachines.com/
http://www.exfactory.com/
http://www.theoak.com//swapshop.html
http://members.aol.com/toolxchang/
http://ume.cgi.execpc.com/ww.html
http://www.woodauction.com/
http://www.woodweb.com/~industry/machineryboard/
http://home.woodwest.com/wood/DAVIS-WELLS.html
Keith Bohn
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:32 AM
To: 'Woodworking, Post'
Subject: climb cutting URL
Hi Don and others
Rick Christopherson's website has a description with diagrams on
climb-cutting and how it differs from chip cutting which is more
conventional with routers. In both cases the carbide tip of the cutter
enters the wordpiece before the rear of the carbide edge.
As everyone else has noted climb cutting requires a higher degree of
securing of the workpiece and cutter (router or shaper) edge than with
chip cutting but does result in a cleaner cut.
http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/Articles/Climb-Chip-Cutting.html
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 4:21 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Closet organizer.
So anyway, SWMBO gets her bedroom closet organizer this weekend (of course
the split is 90/10 8^). The words "square", "plumb" and "my closet" cannot
be used in the same sentence. Should I install the shelf supports by
measuring up from the floor, down from the ceiling or with a level? Or
should I just pop the roof off another beer and watch TV?
BTW, 5/8" melamine is $26.99/sheet in north central Alberta. I'd be
interested in knowing how that stacks up with the rest of the world.
Oh yeah - will 8x8 oak beams be enough to hold up a closet full of "nothing
to wear"???? 8^)
TIA
Jim W.
Snowed in a city 'bout 2 hours from here last night - don't know when our
turn is.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 11:30 PM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Closet organizer.
Jim,
90/10? Yeah, isn't this the way it is supposed to be????? I don't get it. :
)
Anyway.... What I'd do is bust for a couple of extra sheets of melamine
(you'll never remember the monetary loss a year from now and she'll be happy)
and line at least both sides of the closet. You probably don't have to do the
back, but it does look nice when the back is done also. Anyway, back to the
sides, make your closet both plumb and square with the "new" sides and set your
shelf supports (or the holes for the shelf supports) on the newly squared up
and plumb sides. These can be shimmed against your less than perfect existing
walls so they are sturdy. A little decorative edge molding on the front to
hide the variance between the old and new wall and you're set. This way, SWMBO
can adjust the shelves (since they will fit all the way up and down) when she
decides that she has more sweaters to store folded than she originally
thought. Plus, the melamine lined closet is easy to clean.
Just my 2 cents from the other side.
: )
Sharon
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 5:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Closet organizer.
Sorry to bust in here with this one but I gotta tell somebody. We'd
been contemplating a do over on the sagging 8' black iron pipe and
1/2" plywood shelf we call our closet. In the midst of finishing up
the wall paneling in the kitchen I had a head of steam and decided to
go for it. Susan was at work and unaware of what she would find when
she got home. Anyway, I set off for Farm & Fleet (a Hope Depot
without the glamor) at precisely 9:A.M. Walked the aisles and finally
decided on the Easy Track system. Loaded it up in the Jeep and headed
for home. Gutted the closet, puttied some holes, busted open the box
and was done by 11:A.M. Two hours!!! I could not even believe how
easy this was and it's far more than the wire shelving most people
offer. IT TOOK LONGER TO RELOAD ALL THE CLOTHES, THAT'S HOW EASY THIS
SYSTEM IS.
The real disappointment was Susan. She comes home, gives it a look
over and a.... "nice". NICE!!! I mean damn women, it's a modern day
miracle!!! Did I mention it only took TWO HOURS???? sigh....
Anyway, as I said, I had to tell somebody...
Keith Bohn
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 7:31 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Closet organizer.
Keith,
I checked out the Sleazy-crak system last year when I was tossing this idea
around. Went to look at a couple of different friends closets and the first
thing I noticed was stuff hanging down twixt the wires on the shelves (not
to mention how strong it doesn't look).
It looks like a good system but since I don't think it'd work for us I opted
for the custom built route. There's a foot and a half on each end of the
closet covered by walls so I had special considerations to make that space
at least a little bit accessable. For a clothes rod I'm considering a chunk
of Kenworth frame to hold up all the "nothing to wear".
Jim W.
It froze last night and I forgot to bring glue and stuff like that in from
the shed.
mechanic at agt.net
PS - Congrats. on the closet remodel - I figger that I'll be lucky to get
"nice". Usually I get "something is too something or not something enough"
8^).
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 9:06 AM
To: b2d at execpc.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Closet organizer.
Keith:
You should consider yourself lucky that you even got a "nice" remark
out of Susan. This could have been a absolute disaster. This is what
you did wrong. First you did procrastinate long enough to get Susan to
complain enough about the condition of the closet. Sakes alive, how
important could this job be if she had not been complaining for at least
five years. Second, you did not take Susan with you to Farm and Fleet
to select the proper equipment. Just because what you got was functional
and attractive does not mean she can appreciate it without telling you
what to get. I mean you didn't even get her to suggest the concept, let
alone approve the details. Third, you completed the job too quickly.
Two hours, it will take you that long to rake the leaves out of the yard
and I am sure she does not consider that a extra effort. You should have
moved the TV back there watched a ball game, and make sure you told her
you spent 8 hours with that closet.. Additionaly, you should have
explained how much you had to work with the out of square walls and the
lack of close tolarances of the materiel. My golly, nothing of value is
gained easily!
I really think you dodged a bullet here. She must be a very
forgiving lady! Darn few of the rest of us would have got by with this,
let alone got, even a mild compliment, let alone a "NICE." Most of us
would had to tear it back out and redo with something else.
Ken Martin
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:45 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Closet organizer......update.
Thanks to all for suggestions and insight into the "leaning closet of Slave
Lake", it's on it's way together.
I started by striking a level line where the top shelf goes and I'm working
off that for a reference. I would have liked to follow through on Sharon's
suggestion of making everything square with the world but I have to work on
this thing in stages. You just don't realize how much stuff a woman can cram
into a 12 foot long closet and the only place to get it out of my way is to
stack it on the bed 8^(.
Of course, now that all the parts are cut all the "I wanted's" are coming
out instead of back when we were in the planning stage. Still, I'm pretty
sure I'll get a "nice" out of it 8^).
Thanks again.
Jim "rootin' 'round in the back of the closet" W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 6:44 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: CMS Blade
Thanks to all who responded to my request for suggestions for a good
blade to replace the steel one delivered with my Delta CMS. Several
suggested Freud, and after my own research and my favorable experience
with other Freud blades, I ordered the LU91M010 today from Tools on Sale
for $54 (free shipping). It is a 60 tooth thin kerf blade with a -5
degree hook angle. At this point, the Freud blade looks like the best
available compromise considering price and quality. I'll report on the
performance after I've made some cuts.
Gerald
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: CMS Miter Cuts
Hi all,
I have 3 months experience with a Delta CMS, all of it supporting
carpentry and siding work. I have been very impressed with the
performance and ease of use. It is now set up in my shop, and I tried
it today for flat 45 degree miters in hickory and oak 1/2" thick and
2-1/2" wide. I am less than impressed with the results.
I have perfected techniques to achieve near perfect miters with my RAS,
and I'll revert to the RAS if I can't get a better fit than I did today
with the CMS. The key word is "techniques", and I wonder if I'm doing
something wrong with the CMS. My main thoughts are fence position and
direction of cut. Don't get me wrong - the miters aren't all that bad,
and for molding around a door frame, they are perfectly acceptable. For
fine furniture, however, I like miters with a light tight fit and zero
gaps.
Here's what I did. The fence is in the back position because I was last
cutting 6" siding and decking. After one hand held cut where I felt the
wood move, I clamped the workpiece for each cut. I rotated the blade to
the left and clamped the workpiece on the left fence to minimize the
unsupported distance between the clamp and the blade. That put the
point of the miter at the fence. For the other half of the miter, I
rotated the blade right and clamped the workpiece to the right fence.
The assembled miter was square, and light tight from the inside corner
to about 75% of its length. From there to the outside corner, a slight
gap develops.
My first thought is to move the fence to the forward position (towards
the operator). With a 2-1/2" wide workpiece, I don't need maximum width
cutting capability. Is this likely to help? My second thought was
cutting direction, by which I mean that I would rotate the blade 45
degrees to the right, and clamp the workpiece to the left fence. This
would put the inside corner at the fence, which is the opposite of what
I did today. Is this likely to help? My third thought was that despite
the clamp, the workpiece might be slipping slightly as the blade goes
through. My solution would be putting sandpaper on the fence to retard
slippage.
Being the first time I tried the CMS for fine woodwork, I didn't cut the
pieces to final length. I have enough to spare to try the CMS again,
and revert to my proven RAS techniques if I can't achieve what I want
with the CMS. One thing I know is that it's a whole lot easier to split
the cut line with the RAS than with the CMS. Maybe that laser indicator
folks have been talking about is the answer. I'd like to hear from
folks who have made really good miters with a CMS. I have a feeling
that I'm doing something wrong. Regards,
Gerald
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:36 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Gerald,
Are you absolutely certain that your blade doesn't have excessive
runout? How about the motor arbor? Can you place your RAS blade in the
CMS to at least eliminate that one possibility unless you can check it
with a dial indicator? Is the blade sharp? Is the fence straight?
Although not as precision a tool as some would like it, the CMS should
produce a very respectable miter. After all, that one it's main
functions. Certainly it should be as good if not better than your
tweaked RAS. Perhaps the CMS needs the same TLC as the RAS.
HTH,
DW
AFR
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:19 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> Gerald,
> Are you absolutely certain that your blade doesn't have excessive
> runout? How about the motor arbor? Can you place your RAS blade in the
> CMS to at least eliminate that one possibility unless you can check it
> with a dial indicator? Is the blade sharp? Is the fence straight?
>
Good input, Don. Yes, the fence is straight. It wasn't when I bought
the saw, but that was the first thing I checked and corrected. Yes, the
blade is sharp, but it is a 100 tooth thin steel blade and blade flex is
one of the things I'm concerned about. Your suggestion to try the
carbide 60 tooth RAS blade is a good one. I know that the blade is
square, because I checked that this afternoon. I don't know about
runout. I have not yet checked that with my dial indicator. I don't
know what you mean about the motor arbor. I haven't had the blade that
was provided with the saw off yet.
> Although not as precision a tool as some would like it, the CMS should
> produce a very respectable miter. After all, that one it's main
> functions. Certainly it should be as good if not better than your
> tweaked RAS. Perhaps the CMS needs the same TLC as the RAS.
Well, I think the mechanics are OK, and my feeling too is that it should
do at least as well as my RAS. My gut feeling is that my technique is
faulty. If I can't resolve the problem, I'll revert to the RAS, which I
know will give me the results I want. BTW, I check the RAS every few
months, but it's been 3 years since I've had to tweak it. I just don't
know why so many people have so many problems with the RAS. Regarding
TLC, all my tools get that. I'm at fault when they don't perform as
advertised (usually). Thanks for the response. I have new things to
try tomorrow.
Gerald
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:27 AM
To: 'gmayer at uconect.net'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: CMS Miter Cuts
Gerald,
If I interpret the message correctly, you have a problem with flatness of
the cut, is that correct? Is one of the cuts - or both - actually convex? If
that is the case, you have a problem with flexing or axial vibration of the
blade. That could come from two sources. Either the blade is not sharp
enough, or it is not intended for this type of cut. I think you will find
that by replacing the blade with a better one will change the performance by
a mile. Delta doesn't put very good blades on their machines when new. It is
like saving money on speakers.
Zdenek
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:43 AM
To: gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Gerald Mayer wrote:
>
> Donald Weisman wrote:
> >
> > Gerald,
> > Are you absolutely certain that your blade doesn't have excessive
> > runout? How about the motor arbor?
> I don't
> know what you mean about the motor arbor.
Gerald:
I meant to say the motor shaft and not the mortor arbor. Yes, I too
would be concerned with "Blade Flex" especially if the blade is of the
"thin kerf" variety. However, the CMS for miter use, is a straight 90�
downward cut. There shouldn't be any deflection in that position
what-so-ever...thin kerf or not! The blade that came with the saw may
not be up to the quality to produce good miters or not flat or never
have been as sharp as it could be. While I don't necessarily recommend
the use of fine quality "Blade Stabilizers" due to their limiting the
depth of cut, for precision miters it could be a good idea with your
setup.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Gerald,
Which model CMS do you have? May sound silly, but is your back nut
tight enough? Any woble anywhere when you push the arm sideways as you
go up and down, at all angles? I have a cheap Delta and it gives me
excellent miters, and I have no technique to speak of. Just a fairly
high fence, a flat table and a clamp on the "infeed" side. My miters
are as tight as they would be by hand with a box. Blade is a Systimatic
crosscut fine toothed. Short of a guillotine, I don't see it better.
Frederik
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 8:16 AM
To: 'abacus at pdq.net'; gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: CMS Miter Cuts
What I have noticed once, is that if you do not have a sharp blade and cut
at an angle to the grain, the teeth tend to slide on the fibers before they
start cutting. This happens at the front of the cut and as they get
deflected, the stiffness of the blade bounces them back, making the cut
curved. One side anyway, as the bounce is more a vibration phenomenon and
kind of opens the cut. Wider where it exits, than where it enters the wood.
My first look would be at the blade.
Zdenek
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 4:49 PM
To: Mestenhauser, Zdenek
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Mestenhauser, Zdenek wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> If I interpret the message correctly, you have a problem with flatness of
> the cut, is that correct? Is one of the cuts - or both - actually convex? If
> that is the case, you have a problem with flexing or axial vibration of the
> blade. That could come from two sources. Either the blade is not sharp
> enough, or it is not intended for this type of cut. I think you will find
> that by replacing the blade with a better one will change the performance by
> a mile. Delta doesn't put very good blades on their machines when new. It is
> like saving money on speakers.
>
Zdenek, that's correct. 75% 0f the cut, starting from the inside
corner, is flat and fits well. The remaining 25% to the outer corner is
convex and shows a diverging gap. The blade is thin, and I suspect that
it is vibrating at the end of the cut. Checking the manual, Delta
recommends a forward fence position unless working with 6" stock. I
think that will help, because the workpiece will then be centered under
the motor shaft instead of offset as it was when I cut with the fence in
the back position.
The blade has a fair amount of use, and is not carbide. Most of that
use has been with soft Western Red Cedar, so it is still pretty sharp.
With a magnifier, I can see wear on the blade tips. I have an old 48
tooth carbide RAS blade that has had very little use since its last
sharpening. It is a standard width kerf rated for cutting wood and
non-ferrous metal, and the teeth look crisp and sharp under
magnification. The rake angle appears to be about +2 degrees, which
complies with the +5 degree maximum recommended by Delta. My only
reservation is that the maximum RPM label is unreadable. Delta
specifies a minimum of 5,000. I think I recall that this one was rated
at 5,500 but I'm not sure. The blade delivered with the saw is rated at
7,000.
I got diverted from my CMS experiments today by a router problem, but
that's another post. Thanks for your input. I think that changing the
fence position and going to a full kerf sharp carbide blade will fix the
problem. Regards,
Gerald
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:38 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts
Hi, Gerald:
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Western Red Cedar has a
high silica content that makes it hard on edge tools, even though it
is a soft wood.
Just a thought
Bob Hamilton
Forest, Ont.
> Most of that
> use has been with soft Western Red Cedar, so it is still pretty sharp.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 6:05 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts Phase 2
Thanks to all who responded to my original question. Now I have another
related question.
The problem of a convex cut was solved by putting the fence of my Delta
36-220 Type 3 saw in the forward position, and switching to a full kerf
carbide blade. The blade I had was freshly sharpened, but it is a
combination blade with an alternate top bevel grind and a raker tooth
every third one. The hook angle is 2 degrees, which makes it a suitable
blade for a CMS, but it has only 48 teeth, and only 32 of them are
actually doing the cutting when you subtract the raker teeth. It will
be my blade of choice for carpentry jobs, but it doesn't satisfy me for
fine woodworking.
Here's the question. What blade should I buy for the CMS to give me the
best results for furniture quality miters in hardwood? Remember, your
favorite TS blades don't qualify because the hook angle is too great. I
think I'm looking for something with 60 or 80 teeth, and a hook angle
between 0 and -5 degrees. In the absence of advice to the contrary, I
like the one offered by Jesada, but I usually get 2 or 3 blades for
their asking price. Any advice based on experience will be
appreciated. Regards,
Gerald
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 9:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts Phase 2
>Here's the question. What blade should I buy for the CMS to give me the
>best results for furniture quality miters in hardwood?
I'm *very* happy with the 12" Forrest Chopmaster I installed on my DeWalt
CMS. 80 teeth. 5 deg. negative hook. Dead flat body. Hefty, razor sharp,
high grade carbide teeth. Leaves the most amazingly clean cut. Not cheap!
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:20 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts Phase 2
Gerald Mayer wrote:
> Here's the question. What blade should I buy for the CMS to give me the
> best results for furniture quality miters in hardwood? Remember, your
> favorite TS blades don't qualify because the hook angle is too great. I
> think I'm looking for something with 60 or 80 teeth, and a hook angle
> between 0 and -5 degrees. In the absence of advice to the contrary, I
> like the one offered by Jesada, but I usually get 2 or 3 blades for
> their asking price. Any advice based on experience will be
> appreciated. Regards,
>
> Gerald
A 80 tooth blade on a 10" blade can give a pretty good finish cut. But
on a 12" it's not quite fair enough for your intended use.
When I was recently looking for a replacement 12" RAS 30-40 tooth
Carbide tip saw blade with a negative hook if possible or nearly
negative, virtually all I could find at the time was 60 tooth and
upwards to about 100 or so. I didn't much attention as it was not what I
was looking for. The point is, there was a rather large selection to
choose from in fine tooth cut-off blades and I would be surprised if you
had any difficulty in locating what you want in 10" to 12" blades.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 1:06 AM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; Woodworking
Subject: Re: CMS Miter Cuts Phase 2
Is that saw a 10" or a 12"? I'm not familiar with it.
Either way, Freud's LU85M "Ultimate Cut-Off" blade, which has 80
teeth on a 10" and 96 teeth on a 12", should do you just fine.
Expensive little buggers--McFeely's catalog I got yesterday lists the
10" blade for $57.75 and the 12" blade for $102.95.
Alternately, Forrest makes a very fine blade which, alas, is even
more expensive than the Freud. Oh well...
--jmowreader
"ROM stands for Read-Only Memory. That's the place in a
computer that doesn't go away when you shut off the power.
It's also the place where computer companies put their
worst idiosyncracies."
--Guy Kawasaki, The Macintosh Way
From: Frank Karnes [searcher at netzone.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 1:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Compressor filter/seprator
Hello,
Finally found a compressor at a garage sale; and, am expecting
a Senco Brad Nailer in a couple of weeks.
Before I use the nailer I want to install a good filter/seprator
(the nailer costs more than the compressor). The only one I found
in this neck of the woods is a Sears Craftsman.
Any words of wisdom concerning sources, recommendations, warnings,
etc?
The compressor is 7 gal 1.5hp. Runs well and holds its pressure; but,
don't beleive the prior owner drained the tank on a routine basis.
Cheers
Frank
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:28 AM
To: searcher at netzone.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Compressor filter/seprator
Frank Karnes wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Finally found a compressor at a garage sale; and, am expecting
> a Senco Brad Nailer in a couple of weeks.
>
> Before I use the nailer I want to install a good filter/seprator
> (the nailer costs more than the compressor). The only one I found
> in this neck of the woods is a Sears Craftsman.
>
> Any words of wisdom concerning sources, recommendations, warnings,
> etc?
>
> The compressor is 7 gal 1.5hp. Runs well and holds its pressure; but,
> don't beleive the prior owner drained the tank on a routine basis.
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank
Frank,
I wouldn't think you'd have any problem with that Sears item. I use 1/2
dz of them around the shop of different mfr and sizes. Even the most
expensive ones can give occassional trouble. The standard type all
pretty much use the same standards and some are available in auto
discharge. Theres no better way to go. Other sources can be Spray
Equipment dealers. Keep in mind though, that the inlet size acts as a
choke! If the seperator inlet is 1/4" female, and you use a 1/4" male
the aperature is nearly 1/8". For your Senco (nice tool) brad nailer it
would probably be adequate. For another tool, it may not.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 9:38 AM
To: searcher at netzone.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Compressor filter/seprator
I would not recommend the Sears as I think they are made by
Milton.Milton filters/regulators/seperators ,in my experience, cut down
the airflow.I buy Wilkerson from W.W. Grainger and have had good luck
with them.They are not real expensive.I also have Binks in my finishing
room which do an excellent job but are very expensive.
Neither will do you much good mounted directly to the compressor.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Frank Karnes [searcher at netzone.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 12:32 PM
To: gene_nordgren at email.com
Cc: Donald Weisman; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Compressor filter/seprator
Gene,
A filter/separator acts much like a fuel filter on a gasoline engine,
intent to keep the air produced by the compressor as clean as possible
of contaminants including water and rust. Hopefully, with an adequate
filter, reduction in air flow is minimized; and, your tools will have
a longer life.
Thanks Don, I think I will pick up the craftsman filter tomorrow,
Craftsman sale started today and it will pay the taxes.
Cheers
Frank
From: Frank Karnes [searcher at netzone.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Compressor Maintenance Update
Hello All,
Thought it would be appropriate to fill you in on the progress
of maintaining my compressor; and, to give a great big "ATTA BOY"
to Campbell-Hausfeld Tech Services.
Step 1 was after I called C-H tech. services they faxed me the
appropriate pages from their user guide for my model compressor.
I used it as a guide to remove and clean the check valve. Results
were: Pressure came up to standard 115lbs and I was able to finish
to work in progress. However, pressure was not maintained for more
than 8 hrs slowly going to zero.
Step 2 - Received the new check valve last Monday (10 days after
the call). It was promptly installed. The new results are: pressure
comes up to standard 115lbs in 2 minutes; and, remains there. So far
after 4 days, it has not dropped a bit.
Needless to say I am as pleased as a fox in the chicken coop.
Thanks to all who responded and a big thanks to Campbell-Hausfeld.
Cheers
Frank
From: Trevor Stott [stott at dathomir.sheridanc.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 7:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Compressor questions
1) What's the difference between CFM and SCFM?
2) Can a nailer that's says 5.1CFM actually be used on a compressor that is
rated for 3.5SCFM @ 90PSI?
Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Stott Trevor.Stott at sheridanc.on.ca
Information Technology
Sheridan College Phone: (905) 845-9430 ext. 2148
Oakville, Ontario, Canada Fax: (905) 815-4011
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every time I think I know where it's at, they move it."
From: Keith Ford [kcford at airmail.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 9:35 AM
To: Trevor Stott
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Compressor questions
CFM = cubic feet per minute
SCFM = standard cubic feet per minute (standard indicates at atmospheric
pressure)
Used interchangably in the context of compressor output and tool
requirements. 3.5CFM compressor could run 5.1CFM gun if the gun is not
fired continuously. The pressure tank on the compressor can deliver air
faster than compressor can replentish.
Keith Ford
Arlington, TX
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 2:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Confusing
I am working on some Christmas gifts for my son, nieces, nephews, etc. and
decided that the easiest way to "finish" them is to spray paint them. They
are for an outdoor project so I am using Painter's Touch spray paint.
Now, I've used spray paints and other spray finishes before but these
directions just plain don't make sense.
"....Hold can upright 10-12" from surface and spray in a steady back-and-
forth motion, slightly overlapping each stroke. Keep the can the same
distance from the surface and in motion while spraying." --Fine so far.--
"Apply 2 or more light coats a few minutes apart. May recoat within 1 hour or
after 24 hours. Dries to the touch in 20 min and to handle in 1 hour."
So the sixty-four thousand dollar question is when do you recoat? "...a few
minutes apart."; "...within 1 hour...."; or "...after 24 hours."?
Maybe it is the paint fumes but I don't think so.
Good WWking!
Chuck
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 4:02 PM
To: TecChef at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Confusing
Chuck:
It is just as the can states, recoat in less than a hour or after 24
hours. These kind of directions were very common a few years back when
epoxy paints were introduced. The reason is that the product goes
through a curing process and it become incompatible with itself for a
period of time during the process.
Ken Martin
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:46 PM
To: TecChef at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Confusing
Me thinks they forgot to say "after 24 hours lightly SAND before you
recoat". Some paints cure hard and glossy after this much time and
need sanding so the next coat will have something to cling too.
Keying I believe they call it.
My two cents Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:30 PM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball
Cc: TecChef at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Confusing
Andy;
You are absolutely correct. I use an industrial VERY quick dry enamel
and always sequence my application so I can get two coats in the time
frame that allows not sanding.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:48 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Copying legs to a different scale.
Hello All,
I am finally about to embark on SWMBO's long anticipated sofa table. In
solid oak I want to emulate the details on our existing living room group.
Edge treatments and such will naturally be a cakewalk *but* (there always
seems to be a but.......) I am having trouble visualizing the legs. The
pieces in the group have a turned leg running from the top to the lower
shelf and a simple ball foot below the lower shelf. These existing legs are
approximately half the length of theose required for the sofa table.
Should I stretch out the existing design on a longer leg of the same design
or would this tend to look too fragile compared to it's shorter cousins? If
I stretch out the design, should I turn it to a larger diameter to retain
proportion to the others? Should I add some complimentary contours to a
turning of the same diameter?
I have mulled over pretty much every option that I can think of, but for
some reason I can't seem to visualize the end product in my minds eye.
Committing the task to paper has muddied the waters even further.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Jim W.
The snow is here to stay and the shop is just a LITTLE frosty.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 5:04 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Copying legs to a different scale.
Jim,
If I'm getting this right, what your asking is not exactly how to make the legs
the same proprotion as their smaller cousins, but whether or not to. This goes
back to the design thread (not starting it over, just a referance) in that this
is something that would need to be a desicion. I would guess some of the
deciding factors would be the size of the room, where this table will be
placed, from where it can be seen, how easily it can be seen with the other
cousin table, etc.
What I'd suggest is... And the effort will really impress SWMBO, is to make a
dummy out of pine with the elongated legs, put it where you want it and stand
back and look at it. This will serve two purposes, if your very first reaction
is, "oh man, that looks bad", then try it the other way. I believe this is
something that only you can decide (but it doesn't hurt to ask friends... go
for the friends that you think have a good design eye). Plus, it will be good
practice to create the legs on pine and you can use the pine table in your
shop.
:-)
Sharon
Jim & Deb Warman wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am finally about to embark on SWMBO's long anticipated sofa table. In
> solid oak I want to emulate the details on our existing living room group.
> Edge treatments and such will naturally be a cakewalk *but* (there always
> seems to be a but.......) I am having trouble visualizing the legs. The
> pieces in the group have a turned leg running from the top to the lower
> shelf and a simple ball foot below the lower shelf. These existing legs are
> approximately half the length of theose required for the sofa table.
>
> Should I stretch out the existing design on a longer leg of the same design
> or would this tend to look too fragile compared to it's shorter cousins? If
> I stretch out the design, should I turn it to a larger diameter to retain
> proportion to the others? Should I add some complimentary contours to a
> turning of the same diameter?
>
> I have mulled over pretty much every option that I can think of, but for
> some reason I can't seem to visualize the end product in my minds eye.
> Committing the task to paper has muddied the waters even further.
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Jim W.
> The snow is here to stay and the shop is just a LITTLE frosty.
> mechanic at agt.net
From: ALICATTER at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 5:10 AM
To: Lignumvai at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cordless drills
Would recommend the Dewalt over Ryobi, much better manufacturing. Ryobi has
good designs but uses cheap plastic parts in the guts where strength counts;
and is needed. Be sure to invest in an extra battery, so as to have one
always charged. Have fun with your new toys.
Happy holidays
Dave (Va. Bch. Va.)
From: Yves Messier [ymessier at istar.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 9:10 AM
To: Richard Bienvenu
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Ah my area of expertise. I have spent the last ten years in the battery
industry.
The nicad battery was the first battery ever invented, in 1899,(I will spare
you the history) and is still the most used and the best for portable use.
The no-memory battery is a Nickel Metal Hydride which is a newer
rechargeable technology that has proven itself to be unsuccessful in many
applications and successful in very few.
"Memory", or voltage depression, is a crystalline formation that grows on
the cell plates. Memory will always be a problem with Nicad batteries, it
degrades performance and useful service life. However, it can be avoided
with proper maintenence. My Makita battery is 5 years old and still runs
like new.
The active materials of a Nicad battery are present in crystalline form. By
regularly discharging the Nicad to 1 volt per cell (12 Volts in your case),
the crystals on the cell plates remain small. If during repeated partial
discharges (ex. use the drill 1 hour then putting the battery on charge
while it still has an hour or so of service left in it)the Nickel
oxyhydroxide is not converted back to nickel hydroxide, the crystals clump
together and form spike like dendrites. The dendrite prevents the active
material its covering to work, thus eliminating battery capacity. Allowed to
grow the dendrite will pierce the cell plates and cause the cell.
If identified early, this dendrite build-up can be disolved by cycling your
battery (charge - full discharge to 1 volt per cell <-- this three times).
If no exercise is applied for six months or more, a discharge to 1 volt per
cell may no longer be enough to restore the battery. The only savior at this
point would be a reconditionning cycle which is done by a high tech charger.
Reconditionning consists of a controlled deep-discharge below the one volt
per cell threshold.
I don't listen to anyone who says that the Nicads today do not have memory
effect. This is only true when they are not in use. A Nicad battery needs to
be discharged completely before recharging it if you want it to last. I tie
a string around the trigger of my Makita Drill to let it run until there is
absolutely no juice left in the battery before I put it in the charger.
� la prochaine,
Yves
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Bienvenu [mailto:histzut at showme.missouri.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 10:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
As a happy new owner of a PC 14.4v cordless driver (my first serious
"autonomous" tool, as the French have it), I was somewhat surprised by the
manual's warning that re-charging _before_ the battery was really no longer
powering the tool would result in a "shortened" life.
I recall reading (on this list and in Consumer Reports) that the "memory
effect" was no longer a problem; that is, the newer rechargeables get up to
a full charge from any level. Yet, Porter-Cable seems to be saying that
this effect is still a problem. Or, am I inferring too much from this
monition? What could they be talking about? (Not that I intend to be
disobedient!)
Richard Bienvenu
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 11:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Bill,
Thank you for the great info.
Very trivial question:
>
> 4. Heat is the worst enemy of NiCads. Don't recharge or use a battery
> that is hot.
>
....How much heat roughly? I charge my batteries cold, or lukewarm
right out of the tool. Warm to me is far from hot (discomfort in the
hand). After charging, they might be "warm" but not really hot, and
I'll use them right away. Is all that OK? Or should they be stone cold
at all times before charging or using?
I never push my cordless tools. I suppose that in a professional or
contracting environement (Hi Mom), it might be a different matter
whereas tools are used continuously till the battery is down, then a
cool-off period would make sense.
Thanks,
Frederik
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 6:59 AM
To: frederik at gorge.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:06:50 -0800, Frederik Fouillade wrote:
> ....How much heat roughly? I charge my batteries cold, or lukewarm
>right out of the tool. Warm to me is far from hot (discomfort in the
>hand). After charging, they might be "warm" but not really hot, and
>I'll use them right away. Is all that OK? Or should they be stone cold
>at all times before charging or using?
Of the top of my head I don't have a number. But I would compare it
with hot water that you could keep you had in. Any hotter and let it
cool off.
The real problems come with people that have been using one to drive
scews into CCA all day and when it stops they pull the battery out
and pop it into the charger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 4:31 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Bill Hartmann wrote:
>
> The real problems come with people that have been using one to drive
> scews into CCA all day and when it stops they pull the battery out
> and pop it into the charger.
>
Here's an illustration of the problem. Installing a deck this summer, I
was using a Sears and a DeWalt set up for driving and drilling
respectively. When the Sears battery gave out, I plugged it in the
charger and got a light that said fully charged, which it wasn't.
Suspecting a defective charger, I left it in overnight and found it
fully charged in the morning. I subsequently read the fine print in the
manual, which said that if the battery was warm from use (it was), let
it cool for 1/2 hour if you want a one hour charge. With a warm battery
plugged in, the charger senses that and reverts to a trickle charge,
which takes 12 hours. Regards,
Gerald
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 7:14 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Mayer <gmayer at uconect.net>
Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
>Here's an illustration of the problem. Installing a deck this summer,
<snip>
>Suspecting a defective charger,
I fell for that same scenario, only problem was I had promised the deck to
be finished that day for the client. I had done a charge or two already
during the day but not after continuous usage, in other words the battery
was cool enough to charge. Once I really started laying continuous deck
boards though, she wouldn't take a charge. Suspecting the charger, I ran
out and bought another one, back to the job site and plugged her in (by now
the battery had cooled) and charged her up. Went to the backup battery and
then used the one charging and the job was done. Didn't have the scenario
repeat itself till a few months down the road. By then, it was pass the "30
day return policy" and so I now have two chargers. Oh well, you live, you
learn. (So that's what those little instruction sheets are for!)
From: Yves Messier [ymessier at istar.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:03 AM
To: Woodworking; frederik at gorge.net
Subject: RE: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Frederik,
The latest addition to the battery family is a rechargeable alkaline.
Invented by the same Dr. who invented the Alkaline battery. It works the
same as an Alkaline but is capable of being recharged due to the
alterationin chemical composition of the electrolyte. The cell is know as
the RAM cell. Some brand names on the market today; Renewal by Rayovac being
promoted by the one and only Mr. Jordan and Pure Energy. These batteries are
very good in Photo applications where short burst of energy are needed, ie;
a flash. The RAM has an very quick voltage recovery. In remote controlled
applications I tend to keep my customers focused on Nicads because the RAM
has a very short cycle life in deep discharge applications, in the
neighbourhood of 100 discharge - charge cycles. Contrary to the Nicad the
RAM lasts longer if you discharge it very little prior to recharging it.
Nimh, in my opinion should of stayed on the drawing board. I have yet to
find an application suited to the nimh. The only advantage to the Nimh is
weight and the very little impact it has on the environment. The Cadmium in
a nicad is a heavy metal with a long half life and is damaging to the
environment, so there is a cost tied to recycling a Nicad. In the US,
however, the US Mail has a program in place to collect rechargeable
batteries and send them to Elwood City PA to a company called Inmetco who
specialize in smelting batteries and other hazardous waste.
I know I have Tech notes on the RAM somewhere, so if you want more info on
that let me know.
Yves
From: Yves Messier [ymessier at istar.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 8:44 AM
To: Woodworking; Mestenhauser, Zdenek
Subject: RE: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
OOPS. Your right. It was out before the RAM cell but under raps because of
its volatility. A charger has yet to be developed that won't destroy the
battery. Hence the extremely High price. It may be the battery of the future
but at this time is too expensive for most applications. I've seen them in
Cell phones and the high end lap tops. You won't see them in cordless tools
for years because of the environment. Instead of cutting fingers off with
your circular you'd be blasting them off with a Lithium battery. I always
tell my customers to think a little at the history of batteries. Earing aids
have been out for quite while now, right, and they use Lithium cells.
Lithium technology has been out for years and years but never in a
rechargeable capacity. Why is this? Don't think nobody's ever thought of
working on it, they have been. The RAM cell has been under development for
10 years now and is only just making a little appearance on the market.
Nicads have been around for 100 years. The first sealed nicads like those
used in cordless tools was developped in 1947, 52 years ago. Nicads have
proven themselves to be a true rechargeable battery capable of withstanding
the harshest environments. Ask NASA what battery they use on their
satellites. Nicads.
Lithium has a long way to go and they will prove to be more useful than the
NiMH battery but that point is still a long way off, I think.
Lithium may be the latest but, in my view, will never be the greatest.
Yves
Example of price difference; Lets look at my price on a flip phone battery
I would sell an 800 mAh Nicad at $ 30.00
An 850 mah Lithium would sell for $ 185.00 using the same mark-up.
Quite a price difference for a couple of ounces in weight savings.
Yves
-----Original Message-----
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [mailto:Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:31 AM
To: 'ymessier at istar.ca'; Woodworking
Subject: RE: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
What about the Lithium- Ion battery? I thought that was the latest and
greatest?
Zdenek
-----Original Message-----
From: Yves Messier [SMTP:ymessier at istar.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 9:03 AM
To: Woodworking; frederik at gorge.net
Subject: RE: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Frederik,
The latest addition to the battery family is a rechargeable
alkaline.
Invented by the same Dr. who invented the Alkaline battery. It works
the
same as an Alkaline but is capable of being recharged due to the
alterationin chemical composition of the electrolyte. The cell is
know as
the RAM cell. Some brand names on the market today; Renewal by
Rayovac being
promoted by the one and only Mr. Jordan and Pure Energy. These
batteries are
very good in Photo applications where short burst of energy are
needed, ie;
a flash. The RAM has an very quick voltage recovery. In remote
controlled
applications I tend to keep my customers focused on Nicads because
the RAM
has a very short cycle life in deep discharge applications, in the
neighbourhood of 100 discharge - charge cycles. Contrary to the
Nicad the
RAM lasts longer if you discharge it very little prior to recharging
it.
Nimh, in my opinion should of stayed on the drawing board. I have
yet to
find an application suited to the nimh. The only advantage to the
Nimh is
weight and the very little impact it has on the environment. The
Cadmium in
a nicad is a heavy metal with a long half life and is damaging to
the
environment, so there is a cost tied to recycling a Nicad. In the
US,
however, the US Mail has a program in place to collect rechargeable
batteries and send them to Elwood City PA to a company called
Inmetco who
specialize in smelting batteries and other hazardous waste.
I know I have Tech notes on the RAM somewhere, so if you want more
info on
that let me know.
Yves
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederik Fouillade [mailto:frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 3:18 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
Yves,
1000 merci! ....What an excellent note. A keeper-note for les
annales
du Chene (The Oak Register).
I was familiar with what you said on Nicads, from years selling
audio/video equipment and the my own tool experience, but it had
never
been explained to me so well and with those great details.
I always run down my Makita batteries (lots in 9.6 & 12) to the last
drop, by hand and not minding the time it takes. My oldest is about
7
years old and runs like the new ones from the last purchase.
On my Toshiba Notebook, it was a different story. I couldn't bear
the
sight of a gaping hole in it if I took or slid out the battery to
save
it, so I sacrificed it and left it in. It lasted 2 years. I no
longer
use that thing in planes and when I work on it in cafes, there is
always
a plug.
On the nimh subject, what are the successful applications (computers
and...) and the failures you mentioned? Also, what's that new nimh
off-shoot that came up on the market a year ago or so. Know
anything on
that?
Thanks a bunch.
Frederik
Yves Messier wrote:
>
> Ah my area of expertise. I have spent the last ten years in the
battery
> industry.
>
> The nicad battery was the first battery ever invented, in 1899,(I
will
spare
> you the history) and is still the most used and the best for
portable use.
> The no-memory battery is a Nickel Metal Hydride which is a newer
> rechargeable technology that has proven itself to be unsuccessful
in many
> applications and successful in very few.
>
> "Memory", or voltage depression, is a crystalline formation that
grows on
> the cell plates. Memory will always be a problem with Nicad
batteries, it
> degrades performance and useful service life. However, it can be
avoided
> with proper maintenence. My Makita battery is 5 years old and
still runs
> like new.
>
> The active materials of a Nicad battery are present in crystalline
form.
By
> regularly discharging the Nicad to 1 volt per cell (12 Volts in
your
case),
> the crystals on the cell plates remain small. If during repeated
partial
> discharges (ex. use the drill 1 hour then putting the battery on
charge
> while it still has an hour or so of service left in it)the Nickel
> oxyhydroxide is not converted back to nickel hydroxide, the
crystals clump
> together and form spike like dendrites. The dendrite prevents the
active
> material its covering to work, thus eliminating battery capacity.
Allowed
to
> grow the dendrite will pierce the cell plates and cause the cell.
>
> If identified early, this dendrite build-up can be disolved by
cycling
your
> battery (charge - full discharge to 1 volt per cell <-- this three
times).
> If no exercise is applied for six months or more, a discharge to 1
volt
per
> cell may no longer be enough to restore the battery. The only
savior at
this
> point would be a reconditionning cycle which is done by a high
tech
charger.
> Reconditionning consists of a controlled deep-discharge below the
one volt
> per cell threshold.
>
> I don't listen to anyone who says that the Nicads today do not
have memory
> effect. This is only true when they are not in use. A Nicad
battery needs
to
> be discharged completely before recharging it if you want it to
last. I
tie
> a string around the trigger of my Makita Drill to let it run until
there
is
> absolutely no juice left in the battery before I put it in the
charger.
>
> � la prochaine,
>
> Yves
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Bienvenu [mailto:histzut at showme.missouri.edu]
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 10:49 AM
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Cordless Q: Return of the "memory effect?"
>
> As a happy new owner of a PC 14.4v cordless driver (my first
serious
> "autonomous" tool, as the French have it), I was somewhat
surprised by the
> manual's warning that re-charging _before_ the battery was really
no
longer
> powering the tool would result in a "shortened" life.
>
> I recall reading (on this list and in Consumer Reports) that the
"memory
> effect" was no longer a problem; that is, the newer rechargeables
get up
to
> a full charge from any level. Yet, Porter-Cable seems to be saying
that
> this effect is still a problem. Or, am I inferring too much from
this
> monition? What could they be talking about? (Not that I intend to
be
> disobedient!)
>
> Richard Bienvenu
<< File: Yves Messier.vcf >>
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 2:06 PM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsman shop vac
Hey all,
Just as an aside, would the "Craftsman Club" membership 10% discount apply to
the Shop Vac or just tools. It didn't cost me anything to join and they
notify you in advance of sales. Just a thought.
: )
Sharon
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 12:41 PM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsman shop vac
I've had more than my share (30-40) of replacing and rebuilding vacuum
motors in my life time. Not that I was in the business, but for other
reasons. Virtually every one, regardless of mfr.or size used the same
type motor. Amtek--was the name in those days if my memory serves. Sure
they came in 2-3 different voltages or stages...and bearings too (I
think). But they were all almost the same and with only a small
difference in CFM's between any. These days I see, my shop vacs have
the same motors. While neither one is a Craftsman, one is a screamer and
the other is very quiet. The screamer is a very powerful 5 gal
commerical "Pullman". The quiet one is a 10-12 gallon commercial
"Electrolux" with the same type motor. Does someone know how is that
explained? By the way, both a 100% steel, and one is stainless steel.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:00 PM
To: Sharon Bannister; kbyfield at terracom.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsman shop vac
Sharon wrote:
<SNIP>
>Hey all,
>Just as an aside, would the "Craftsman Club" membership 10% discount apply
to
>the Shop Vac or just tools. It didn't cost me anything to join and they
>notify you in advance of sales. Just a thought.
<SNIP>
Ya know, I once belonged to this club, then I didn't get anything for a long
time. I signed up again, and never heard from 'em. Asked a salesman, he
mentioned something about there being "problems" with "all the members"
bogging the system down... Guess I don't shop at Sears enough anymore. (Ever
buy anything at Radio Shack? Get on THEIR list?)
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 5:46 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsman shop vac
Sharon Bannister wrote:
>
> Hey all,
> Just as an aside, would the "Craftsman Club" membership 10% discount apply to
> the Shop Vac or just tools. It didn't cost me anything to join and they
> notify you in advance of sales. Just a thought.
It works on vacs. I paid $90 for the last 16 gallon one I bought by
waiting for a coincidence of a $100 sale and a 10% off Craftsman Club
day.
Gerald
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsman TS question
>I have acquired an old Craftsman TS in mint condition
>it's tag # 103. 22420 Simpson Sears.
>Can anyone tell me how old it is?
The 103 prefix indicates it's a King-Seely. It could be from the
1950s or 1960s. A search of DejaNews brought up some rec.woodworking
posts that mentioned that the King-Seely tool division was bought by
Emerson Electric. As you may know Emerson has built tools for Sears
for they past couple of decades until earlier this year when Sears
went elsewhere and Emerson began a union with Home Depot to build the
Ridgid line. As an aside King-Seely was owned by the parent company
of Thermos.
Keith Bohn
From: RGors1020 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:27 AM
To: heltonhead at fuse.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Craftsmen Drill Press
As a current owner of a few (bench saw, router/router table, circular saw,
drills, various power sanders including belt sander, jigsaw, 12" CMS,
accessories with these power tools, and tons of hand tools) Craftsman power
tools, I have no problem recommending their hand tools. As long as there is
no moving parts...well, part's that require electricity, you are safe.
Can't wait until the weekend of Sept 18 - 20 here in Detroit...the AWW show
will be going on and I have a ton of greenbacks to purchase some "REAL" tools!
From: Larry Mamlet [mamlet at dmv.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 2:38 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Subject: crooked bandsaw and honest salesman
I have been following the chat about the bandsaw that wouldn't go straight
because I own a JET 14" closed base saw and have been planning to add
the riser for re-sawing.
Today at woodworker's warehouse, the manager talked me out of buying
anything I'd come in for, but suggested using tools I already have. True.
Worth the trip
to Dover, Delaware. He also suggested that instead of buying the expensive
JET riser that I have someone local make one for a fraction of the cost.
When I told him about the alignment problem under discussion, it
became clear that the problem might well be that the riser block is thicker
on one side. This would account for the guides appearing to move in or
out as the guide post is raised or lowered. When I told him about the problem
going from resaw band to 1/8", he suggested adjusting the camber of the
upper wheel (the knob below the tension-control cants the wheel in/out).
Lastly, since I don't have the riser and have no problem using 1/8 - 3/4"
bands, I am inclined to the inclined riser theory.
How about placing shims until the guide post remains in adjustment
from table-height all the way up? (I checked mine; it is near perfect.)
Then you could assume that the top half of the beast is directly above
the lower.
Good luck.
Larry Mamlet
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 1:18 AM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Subject: Re: crooked bandsaw and honest salesman
Larry;
I have a metal cutting Jet band saw that has a frame that is cast all as
one piece. It was so out of line that you could not turn the wheels
three revolutions before the blade popped off. After much discussion
with Jet the top wheel was shimmed over about 3/16" (to the point that
the wheel almost rubs on the frame) and now the blade stays on the
wheels but does not sit where it should.
I expect that a good straight edge will be very useful in sorting out
the alignment problems.
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 2:34 AM
To: Larry Mamlet; tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: crooked bandsaw and honest salesman
Larry
I have the Jet 14 with the riser. I have not tried a 1/8" blade in it
yet. But the 3/8 and 1/2 track fine and I DO NOT have the problem of
the guides moving in/out front/back as I move it over the 12" range.
And my wheels are co-planner. I did not have to do any shimmying.
Some of the other people do have an apparent alignment problem, but
without being there, I don't know if it is in the riser or some other
part of the machine.
BUT, there is no way that you could begin to duplicate the riser
locally and save money. Besides the block and bolt (this you might
duplicate) it includes the extended guide post. The blade guard that
goes on the post, the blade guard on the left side of the saw and
hardware. I got mine from Tools On Sale for $54.95 and no shipping
charges.
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 2:13 PM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: crooked bandsaw and honest salesman
Andy;
This started to be a reply just to you but I decided it may be of
benefit to the whole list as well.
> You guys have got me doubting my "almost" made decision to buy a Jet
> BS, this decision was based on its middle of the road pricing and
> what I thought was a pretty good reputation. Harvey did they never
> offer to replace the saw or were they afraid that it was a design or
> mold problem and they would all be the same?
As you likely know there are numerous places in Taiwan making
woodworking equipment. The story goes that the company that wants to
pay the most per unit gets the chance to make the first purchase from a
whole warehouse of units that are all set up and powered. They make
whatever tests they want to and make their purchase. Then the second
highest bidder does the same thing. Nothing is thrown out but is sold
to someone.
I purchased this saw locally and was told that if I had any problems
just go straight to the Jet warehouse which was much closer than the
people I purchased from. When I discovered I had a problem I did a
straight edge test on the wheels and determined that when the wheels
were parallel to each other they were about 3/16" offset, one from the
other.
I went to Jet and they called BC and got a new set of pieces for the top
wheel adjustment sent. That did no good so they told me to take the
machine to their recently designated repair depot which is an excellent
motor repair shop. I took it there and they did what I had determined
to be the "solution" which was to shim over the whole top wheel assembly
by the 3/16" at which point the back of the wheel almost hits on the
casting. Now the blade tracks against the flange on one wheel and half
way on the other wheel but does not pop off at all.
Before they got the adjustment completed the motor had burned out. I had
never even had the thing powered up while I was working on it. Jet
offered to give me a new motor but I said I did not want a Taiwan motor.
The value of the motor they said was $35. I knew they sold Made in USA
hole saws so I took my value in hole saws that I knew would be more
useful than the cheap motor. (I knew there were four manufacturers of
hole saws in the USA at that time and the worst hole saw would be better
than that motor).
Several years later I wanted to get a mill/drill machine and went to see
my favorite tool dealer who is 60 miles away. The salesman who I had
known for 15 years suggested a unit from Taiwan. I said I did not want
anything more from Taiwan but he said this was made by the first people
in Taiwan to clone this stuff and they did it well. I made the purchase
and as we took the crated unit out to the truck he said if the drill
chuck packed with it was not to my satisfaction just bring it back.
I was back the next week with that cheap chuck and my neighbour's drill
chuck from a bench drill that had come from the same dealer FIVE years
before. It was so poorly made that the teeth on the key almost did not
touch the teeth on the chuck. The salesman pulled out two good quality
chucks at $54. each and handed them to me. The mill/drill was about
$1,000.
The mill/drill works well and the motor has not been a problem. The
moral of this long post is - If you are going to buy Taiwan machinery
deal with a reliable supplier who will stand behind the product.
Preferably that supplier should be close enough that you can drive to
his shop to get satisfaction.
As to Jet reputation I should not really comment because my experience
is from about 20 years ago and they quite possibly have improved their
quality control over the years.
I hope my experiences will be of use to others.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 6:25 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Cupping Remedy
Hi all,
With the recent talk about cupping, and my own experience today, I
thought I'd share this obscure bit of woodworking knowledge.
Cupping occurs for various reasons. Incomplete drying may cause a board
to cup as it dries further, resawing may cause the board to cup, or, as
I experienced today, dry air and sunshine can cause the outer boards on
a stack to cup severely.
I'm still working on my cedar bevel siding job, and I put my stock
outside at the beginning of the day. It was a sunny and dry day, and by
the midddle of the afternoon, some of my boards that had been exposed to
the sun were cupped so badly that it would have been impossible to
install them without splitting. I fixed them in an hour. Here's the
secret.
Put the cupped board, cupped (concave) side down, on a grassy area in
the sun. In one hour, the severe cup was gone, and the boards were flat
again. I first heard of this remedy in the context of fine woodworking,
and I'm sorry I didn't try it on the 1/4" resawn boards I worked with
earlier this week. The theory is simple. There has been excess
moisture loss on the cupped side. The sun dries moisture on the convex
side, while the soil provides additional moisture to the concave side.
It worked far better and faster than my expectation. This was an
obscure bit of woodworking knowledge stored deep in my memory, but after
today's experience, I will surely use the technique again. Regards,
Gerald
From: Tommy [tking at usit.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 6:27 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Curly, Bird's Eye, Tiger Maple finishing
Howdy Folks,
I have been making some pens and plan on making a clock with curly
maple. I have heard to use Aniline Dye to bring out the grain. Has anyone
tried this? What else can I use to really bring out the grain and figure in
special maple??
Thanks in Advance!!!! :)
TK in Tenn.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 7:18 PM
To: Tommy
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Curly, Bird's Eye, Tiger Maple finishing
The Curls in Culy Maple and Birds in Birdseye Maple are of a harder wood
than the surrounding Maple. Therefore, they will not take the dye in
same way. But the Dye still penetrates, just not as much. You may find,
depending upon your application that it's just great, or not so good.
You might want to experiment on your own and try a wiping stain
proceedure to see which you like better.
My guess is though, that the diameter of the pen is so small that the
curls won't show much anyhow. But they sure should show well on the
clock.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 6:07 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re:Cutting extruded aluminum
Thanks to those who gave me good advice. Got the sliding table
installed yesterday and will align it today. Cut the fence rail with my
miter saw and it was no different than cutting lumber.
Several members have expressed interest in some feedback on the
sliding table. Will have something out in the next few weeks to those
that are interested. I am for the most part a one man shop and bought
the table to help facilitate the cutting of sheet goods. Going to build
a set kitchen cabinets in the near future so it should be a good test.
Ken MartinFrom: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:33 AM
To: Wayne MacDougall; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Cutting Plexiglass
Wayne,
I cut it on my table saw, and use a butane torch to very lightly "flame"
the edges. I prefer to make the cuts while the protective paper or film is
still attached. If it's not, you might try using masking tape and paper to
protect the stuff from scratches while machining it.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne MacDougall [mailto:suer at cyberus.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 8:41 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Cutting Plexiglass
Can anyone give me some ideas on how to cut plexiglass so there is a clean
edge at the cut.
Thanx, Waynem
From: Paul W. Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:05 AM
To: Wayne MacDougall
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Plexiglass
Hi Wayne,
In my experience with plexiglas, I always cut it with a table saw, buffed the
cut edges with a bit of jeweler's rouge until the edge was clear not frosty;
and then to join to pieces I used methylene chloride and a glass hypodermic
needle.
good luck,
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:22 AM
To: suer at cyberus.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Plexiglass
In a message dated 11/9/98 12:06:08 PM, suer at cyberus.ca writes:
<<Can anyone give me some ideas on how to cut plexiglass so there is a clean
edge at the cut.
>>
I use a bandsaw with a fine�toothed blade. It leaves a clean but rough edge
which I sand relatively smooth using a disk sander. For my needs I don't need
it polished. I suppose you could polish it with a buffing wheel, but I haven't
tried it. I cut mostly 1/8 and 1/4 inch thick sheets to fabricate aquarium
accessories.
Lee Harper
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 2:34 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Wayne MacDougall; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Plexiglass
Gary, Wayne and all;
Wayne wanted a clean edge at the cut but as you indicate, Gary, some
clean-up is always required. Start with a SHARP triple chip saw blade.
Your flame method is good as long as the fact the edge gets a bit
thicker than the original sheet thickness does not cause a problem. The
smoother you make the edge, within reason, before taking the flame to it
will reduce the thickening but not eliminate it. This smoothing can be
by filing or sanding.
Also, plexiglass can be cut on a scroll saw without the cut fusing back
together due to heat build-up if the paper is left on it or you put
masking tape on the cut line to disipate the heat. Much of my
plexiglass comes with a plastic film on it now and that is not a
sufficient heat sink to draw the heat.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 4:52 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Plexiglass
>Can anyone give me some ideas on how to cut plexiglass so there is a clean
>edge at the cut.
There's a very nice write up on machining plastic at this URL.
http://www.sdplastics.com/polycast.html
This will take you to a multi-page WOOD magazine article.
http://www.woodmagazine.com/seminars/plastics/sec1.html
Keith Bohn
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 2:59 PM
To: Arie Visser
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Plexiglass
I have had success cutting plexi with a sharp carbide tipped blade in my
table saw. Better yet, I have recently purchased a special plexi blade,
made by Freud I think. It leaves a nice clean edge which is easy to polish
with a buffer.
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:39 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Cutting Plexiglass (compressor leaks)
Frank,
Me being the curious cheap son-of-gun I am, vote for the cleaning method.
My 50's era DeVilbiss needs a cleaning about every 3 or 4 years. The way it
tells me is to leak the pressure down slowly over a few hours instead of
holding for several days. Sounds like your problem may be more severe and
require replacement but I would take it apart and try to clean it. Might
save you a few bucks and you get to find out how it works to boot.
-Dean Horstman
From: Rick Harkins [rharkins at qni.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 7:50 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Cutting plywood
I've always hated cutting full sheets of plywood. The tablesaw (and shop)
were too small, so I usually resorted to running the circular saw against
whatever happened to be 8 feet long and 'straight'.
Ms. UPS delivered a 'portable panel saw' from Penn State this morning. It
consists of two heavy aluminum 'el' channels (9ft and 4.5 ft), and a metal
sled that holds my circular saw. The sled has ball bearings that ride on
the vertical part of the channel.
I've just finished breaking two full sheets of 'paraply' (another story),
and every cut was straight, square, and clean.
If the checkbook had been in a bit better shape, I probably would have gone
with the Pro Ft'r setup. They have an extruded straightedge, and the saw
(or router) 'locks' into a channel. It was about 3 times more $s.
Rick
HeartWood
KC, MO
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 11:31 PM
To: Rick Harkins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting plywood
The only Penn State I'm framiliar with is a college. I'd
like to know how to contact the source.
I've seen plans for a make-it-yourself panel cutter using
a circular saw in a woodworking tips book from Rodale Press
(not immediately at hand to give title, etc.), and also
plans and metal parts in the Rockler (www.rockler.com
1-800-279-4441) catalogue (center insert) for about $321.00
US (and that's without the wood or saw!), so I'm quite
interested in knowing what you got.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting plywood
Rick wrote:
>If the checkbook had been in a bit better shape, I probably would have gone
>with the Pro Ft'r setup. They have an extruded straightedge, and the saw
>(or router) 'locks' into a channel. It was about 3 times more $s.
I've always liked the Pro Ft'r for the toggle clamps. Very to the
point in my humble opinion.
Here's a couple of links that show how to make a fool proof straight
edge for a circular saw.
http://www.open.org/hughesa/w3-01-96.htm
http://members.aol.com/woodmiser1/sawbd.htm
If you make one of these, make it two sided and run the circular saw
on one edge and a router against the other.
You can buy a pre-made guide. It's extruded plastic so I'm not sure
how well it'll stand up.
http://www.tiac.net/users/lakso/
I believe Saw Trax has a kit now that consists of the rails, bearings
and a plate to hold a router. Seems to me it was in the $300 range.
http://www.sawtrax.com/
That's cheap when you think about it.
Keith Bohn
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:47 AM
To: Rick Harkins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Cutting plywood
Rick-
I just visited Penn State Ind web site. Is the tool you are talking about,
#pps-b, sells for $89.00 plus shipping ?
It looks pretty portable ?
What blade are you using on your saw, to cut those panels ?
I am definitly interested.
Thanks,
Dave T.
Waco,TX
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <tlovelace at austin360.com> [tlovelace at austin360.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Rockers
Frederick,
That is a great idea! (templates)
How about, after attaching the template (kraft paper glue, etc) go to the
router table and use a top bearing pattern bit?
I guarante that willl leave a good vertical rocking surface.Then use the
same template on the second rocker to get an identical radius on it.
Tom
Frederik Fouillade wrote:
> Andy,
>
> Of course the high spots can be sanded off. It's wood right? What wood?
> What I would do is make a template, in 1/2 ply, which has the outline
> you want. Then work on its radius. That template must rock well on its
> bottom edge. A good rocking radius and a rocker with proper weight
> distribution and leg attachments is the tough part. Then clamp the
> template to my material to do the rocker on the scroll saw. Watch out
> to not cut in the template as you saw. Then do the other rocker with
> same template to get 2 exact same. I hope I make sense.
>
> Not knowing more on your project, that's all I can think of.
>
> Frederik
>
> Andy & Theresa Ball wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I need your help again, I am nearing the end of my rocking
> > horse project, its at the point of being mounted on its rockers which
> > I attempted to make this morning.
> > I realize that an 18" bandsaw and a 1" blade might be the tool of
> > choice but I'm working with a 20" DeWalt SC. The cut looks like it
> > has a symmetrical curve, but it sure don't ROCK like it. Am I
> > attempting the impossible? can the"high" spots be sanded off? or will
> > I be like the guy with the wobbly bar stool who ended up chasing the
> > wobble from leg to leg untill he had a wobbly milking stool? Your
> > help would be much appreciated as I don't really want to put wheels
> > on my horse....but
> > Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Andy & Theresa Ball (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Cutting Rockers
Hi All,
I need your help again, I am nearing the end of my rocking
horse project, its at the point of being mounted on its rockers which
I attempted to make this morning.
I realize that an 18" bandsaw and a 1" blade might be the tool of
choice but I'm working with a 20" DeWalt SC. The cut looks like it
has a symmetrical curve, but it sure don't ROCK like it. Am I
attempting the impossible? can the"high" spots be sanded off? or will
I be like the guy with the wobbly bar stool who ended up chasing the
wobble from leg to leg untill he had a wobbly milking stool? Your
help would be much appreciated as I don't really want to put wheels
on my horse....but
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Donald Weisman (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Rockers
Andy & Theresa Ball wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I need your help again, I am nearing the end of my rocking
> I realize that an 18" bandsaw and a 1" blade might be the tool of
> choice but I'm working with a 20" DeWalt SC. The cut looks like it
> has a symmetrical curve, but it sure don't ROCK like it. Am I
> attempting the impossible? can the"high" spots be sanded off?
Andy,
For making new rockers, we use a 13" Bandsaw.
For removing the "Bump, Bump" on old and worn but otherwise good
rockers, we use a Spokeshave for a couple minutes and its a done deal!
While you could sand it off, the probability of creating more bump,
bumps is likely, plus the transition from one point to another will not
be continuous--so an uneven rock could occur.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:13 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Dado Blade Set Usage Questions
I've used my Freud "Safety Dado" (308) set a few times now and I have some
questions. It came with no instructions whatsoever and I've not been able
to find any in my several books on Table Saw use.
Is there a correct way to arrange the chippers? These have only two teeth
per chipper on this set. I have been trying to arrange the chippers evenly
distributed about the circle. Does this matter?
My arbor (Unisaw) seems to have a tight spot in the threads about 1/2" out
along the screw. Sometimes it takes a great deal of hemming and hawing to
get a chipper back off if it lands in that area. Is there a proper solution
to this problem? Should I be concerned that maybe the arbor threads were
hardened correctly or something?
Where should the chipper tooth nearest to each outer blade be set with
respect to the teeth of the outer blade? These blades have anti-kickback
nibs on them, so there isn't a nice big clear space between the teeth?
Finally, one annoyance about both Freud blades I own. The first time one
cleans off the pitch, all of the lettering comes off with it. Not a big
deal, but it sure seems second rate. The blades I own from Forrest,
Systimatic, Delta and DeWalt all keep their markings through a standard
washing.
TIA for any advice,
John
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:03 PM
To: jthorner at garlic.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dado Blade Set Usage Questions
Hey John-- Got the same problem, except the dado elements are very tight on my
unisaw arbor. All of them. Also, if I attempt to use all of the dado for a max
slot of 13/16 in. I run out of arbor threads to hold the retaining nut , to my
picky satisfaction.Distributing the chippers around the dado in a uniform
fashion seems to work o.k. The chipper teeth seem to fit between the anti
kickback and the next tooth around the circumference of the outer blades. Good
luck :)
Bob A -- Indiana
MRASP at aol.com
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 8:11 AM
To: Joe Johns; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dado Blade Set Usage Questions
I can attest to this as well. I have the Forrest Dado King set and a Jet
CS, and if I don't pull the chippers off *exactly* perpendicular to the
arbor they get stuck. It takes some wiggling, but they do always come off
eventually.
You might ask why I have a dado set that costs nearly 3/5 the price of the
saw itself? I can't explain it. Well, maybe I can - when I bought the Dado
King I knew far less about dado sets than I do now and felt most
comfortable going with a set that everybody seemed to agree was the best
available. In retrospect, I don't feel that I use it enough to justify the
price, but it sure works well...
Daniel
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 9:06 AM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dado Blade Set Usage Questions
Not necessarily your situation, but higher quality blades, Dado and
otherwise have bored arbor holes for greater accuracy as opposed to
stamping out the hole. This makes for a closer tolorance fit. When
combined with a quality machined arbor, it doesn't leave much gap.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 6:55 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking
Subject: Re: DAMHIKT?
Jim Warman sends:
>Jimmy,
>
>That stands for Don't Ask Me How I Know This - usually used in conjunction
>with an embarrassing admission.
>
>Jim W.
>mechanic at agt.net
Thanks.
--jmowreader
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 8:26 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Danish Oil
Hi all,
I'm ready to finish a couple of small walnut projects, and I'm told that
Danish Oil is a particularly attractive finish for walnut. I've never
used the stuff before. I bought a can of Watco Danish Oil (clear), and
the instructions on the can sound too easy. It says to slobber it on
with a brush or rag, wait 30 minutes, slobber it on again, wait 15
minutes, then wipe it dry and it's done. Is this really the way it's
done? I plan to sand before finishing with 240 grit using a ROS. I'd
stop at 180 grit if I could hand sand with the grain, but the project
has a multitude of cross grain intersections that preclude hand
sanding. I have ROS disks up to 400 grit. Should I go finer than 240,
or would that retard penetration of the oil? Comments from those who
have used Watco Danish Oil would be appreciated. Thanks.
Gerald
From: David L Dahl [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:17 PM
To: 'Gerald Mayer'; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: RE: Danish Oil
Gerald wrote:
<SNIP>
the instructions on the can sound too easy. It says to slobber it on
with a brush or rag, wait 30 minutes, slobber it on again, wait 15
minutes, then wipe it dry and it's done. Is this really the way it's
done?
<SNIP>
Basically, yup, that's all there is to it. Like that word, slobber...
Anyway, I put on a few more coats than the can suggests, then a nice coat
of wax when all is done. Some 400 grit sanding between coats, too, just to
keep things smooth. On the black walnut cradle I jist UPS'd to my neice's
daughter it looked great. Good luck!
David Dahl
Feeling better having vented in Appleton WI
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 11:14 PM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Hi Gerald,
Now consider that I am a novice woodworker, but here is my two
cents. Yes, the instructions are correct and it is that simple.
What I have learned (the hard way) is be sure when you wipe off for
the final time, that it is indeed dry. If it is wet, you end up
with a tacky finish, then you get to remove it and start all over
again. What I understand is that Watco oil finish does not protect
the wood very well, however, you can reapply, and reapply and
reapply whenever you want to freshen it up. I like the way it
looks, oh yes, one other thing, even the CLEAR finish will darken
the wood a tad.
Lately I have been turning on the lathe and I use peanut oil and
beeswax as my finish. Love it. Finding it hard to get off my lathe
to do anything else though, but that is fine with me. SWMBO I am
sure will come up with something for me to make.
If memory serves me correctly, if you sand too fine, you will retard
the ability of the finish to penetrate the wood. 240 I think is all
you do with walnut...don't quote me on that. I read something in
one of the magazines about that....will check and see if I can find
it.
ttyl,
Terry Gerros
From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:06 AM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Gerald,
Let the Watco dry for 24 hrs between coats. Three coats is enough.
I also wet sand with 600 grit wet/dry after the third coat and
sometimes do another wet sand with 1200 wet/dry. Allow at least 72
hrs of drying before waxing.
Lawrie
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 5:39 AM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Howdy Gerald
I don't know where you heard oil is "the" finish for walnut but I sure
couldn't agree more. I haven't found a finish that looks more beautiful on
walnut though straight tung oil will also work. You will get a tad more
protection with the danish oil since it does contain resins. .
I generally find that it takes several more coats then the can recommends to
build a nice sheen. lightly sanding by hand with a wet dry paper (400 grit)
and having it wetted with the watco seems to help give a deeper smoother
finish. When I do use it I also like to keep a close eye on the wood during
the waiting periods. If I see any dull spots developing, caused by more
porus parts of the grain absorbing the oil faster then other parts of the
wood, I apply more oil to those spots keeping the whole surface evenly
coated at all times.
Your plans for pre finish sanding should be fine, and with respect to Terry,
I think (and I could be the one that is wrong since I don't know where he
read the sanding info) that what he read in respect to sanding too fine is
in relationship to staining. I believe the Danish oil will penetrate the
wood cells just fine if case hardening hasn't occurred (apply shortly after
the final sanding).
The sanding too fine relates to stain because the stain, being a pigmented
media, relies on the pigments getting into the open pores and sanding
scratches of the wood and remaining there after you wipe the excess off. By
sanding to to fine a grit you leave no sanding scratches that are deep
enough to hold the stain pigments and thus get poor staining qualities.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:30 AM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
I'll tell you the way I do it, although I haven't used that product
in many, many years. By-the-way, were you aware that Danish Oil is
nothing more than thinned (50%) Varnish? Also, their instructions seem
to change every few years, getting simpler and simpler with each change.
Frankly, I'd take it back...because I doubt whether you will like the
overall result in that it will take years of at least two applications
each year to get gloss build, but you're young... . If you would like a
matte finish's on those pieces you'll love the product, and if you want
to use it for the experience to know first hand, go ahead.
When you apply either 3rd-4th plus application(s), apply it with a
400# wet/dry paper instead of a rag. Don't be concerned with cross grain
scratch's, I doubt that you'll see any with a 400# paper anyway. I
wouldn't be a bit surprised if you got light and darks from one piece of
wood to another. However, being small...it may not show up or bother
you. Penetration should be no problem.
For your next experiment in oil, try MinWax Antique Oil. It has a lot
more build from the get-go. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Watco Danish Oil
will/can sweat oil for a period of time after applications and must be
wiped off before it congeals, so check it frequently. So don't be in a
hurry after the first few applications. Give it extra dry time between
applications...and then some.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Hi, Gerald:
I used Watco Danish Oil on an oak corner table I made and the biggest
problem was, as Don mentioned, that the oil continued to bleed out in
small beads for several hours after I had initially wiped it down.
This may be a problem that is worse on oak, due to its large pores and
open grain. My advice would be to apply it early in the day, so you
will be around for several hours to keep checking and wiping. I did
have the same thing happen on my workbench to a lesser degree, but I
wasn't as worried about achieving a flawless finish on my workbench.
<g>
I used 3 coats on my corner table, and the result looked good.
However, a couple of months after I finished it and it was in the
house, I put a vase of flowers on the table. Unfortunately, the
bottom of the vase was wet and I wound up with a large black stain
right in the middle of the table. I was able to get most of the stain
out with oxalic acid and then refinished the top of the table with a
urethane. The Danish Oil just does not provide much in the way of
protection, and was probably not a good choice for something like a
table top.
Anyway, good luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:51 AM
To: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Danish Oil
On the bleedout problem.
A few years back I used Watco oil on several round oak tables. I applied it
with cotton rags, pretty much the way that has been described in several
previous posts. I used steel wool between the 5 coats, and then again after
the last coat. It gave the tables a beautiful and sturdy finish. I was
dealing with bleeding of the oil all the way through the process, and for
several *weeks* afterwards. Whenever somebody did an "oh oh!" I grabbed the
Watco and a rag and buffed it out. They were used in a sales office for
several years and looked great the last time I saw them.
If you want to see what's really going on with oak and oil, slobber a good
coat on the face of a non quarter-sawn piece of oak, let it soak in good,
then rub it off. Stand the piece on end for a few minutes and notice the
puddle of oil that has run out through the open grain.
Gary Cavener
From: Joe Ruthenberg [jruthenberg at dytn.veridian.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:43 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: RE: Danish Oil
Danish oil is a mixture of oil (boiled linseed, which isn't actually
boiled), varnish, thinners, and driers. There's more to it than varnish,
most notably the driers. Linseed oil on it's own will never dry. Boiled
linseed oil seems to take its jolly time drying anyway, which is why the
dryers are added.
Personally, I really like the look of a properly applied Danish oil finish,
and am willing to put forth the effort to achieve it. I should probably
underline the word effort, because you're going to spend about a week. It's
really more for heirloom furniture than stuff for everyday use. In my
experience, Danish oil does not do well with water, so beware on that coffee
table/dining room table.
Here's a summary of my method:
2. Sand surfaces to at least #320 grit. Wipe all the dust off. Do it again,
you missed some.
3. Wipe on all surfaces. Keep adding until the piece won't absorb any more.
Wait about 10 or 15 minutes, then do it again. I do this maybe 4 or 5 times,
or until the wood doesn't want to absorb any more at the previous pace. It's
usually pretty obvious.
4. Now wipe the piece down with a clean cloth. Get ready for the bleeding.
Check back several times during the day and wipe off all the excess oil.
After a few hours, the piece should stop bleeding.
5. Leave it alone for at least two days, checking back to make sure there is
no more bleeding. Wipe off any bleeding (usually around joints/endgrain).
6. Now re-wet the piece with oil, and keep it wet for about half an hour.
7. Here's the trick. Now wet sand with 400 grit paper adding oil as
necessary. Sand with the grain, and make sure you don't sand too hard, or
remove the wetted dust, which you're trying to force into the pores here.
Take your time, it will pay off later. Make sure you sand any end-grain
thoroughly, or it won't end up with the same look as the rest of the piece.
8. Take a break, then repeat with 600 grit.
9. Allow to dry completely (about a day.)
10. Now wet sand with 600 grit again. Let dry for a day.
11. It should now be amazing smooth (hey, we can have scary sharp, how about
amazing smooth?) and glossy. I apply a paste wax at this time, hand rubbing
it in. I now lightly sand with an ultra fine scotch brite pad, then apply
another coat.
Works for me, but as always, your mileage may vary.
Joe Ruthenberg
220 Project Manager
Veridian Engineering
VOX: (937)476-2845
FAX: (937)476-2888
http://www.veridian.com
The RDT&E leader
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:54 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Sounds like we apply the oil the same way but one thing I would add
with walnut.If you are going to apply wax over the oil.Like Don
said,wait a few weeks while watching the piece to make sure no more oil
will sweat out of the pores.Then apply a red or dark wax.A light wax
will fill the walnuts pores and turn white when it hardens.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:08 PM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: RE: Danish Oil
Gerald,
I have used Watco for many remodeling projects including doors and
backsplash with reasonably good results. Not to step on the "Duke's" toes
here but I came across a guy who has taken Watco Danish Oil application to
new heights. Have not tried his process but thought I would throw it in the
pile of good responses you have received so far.
http://www.mdn.com/~belex/oil_fin.txt
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:33 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Danish Oil
Hi all,
I'd like to thank everyone for the great responses to my question on
finishing walnut with Watco Danish Oil. I was surprised by the
consistency of the responses. On most questions, we see many ways to
skin the cat, but there seems to be one right way to use Danish Oil, and
it's not the one on the back of the Watco can. While all were
consistent, the best overall summary of oil finishing in general and
Watco in particular is at the URL posted by Dean Horstman (
http://www.mdn.com/~belex/oil_fin.txt ). The very first reply I
received was from Ken Martin, who forwarded the entire text of that URL
to me privately. Ken found it last year and copied it, but didn't save
the source. He said that he has used the technique with excellent
results. Thanks, Dean for posting the URL. If you have any interest in
finishing with oil, it's worth the trip.
The books I own on finishing are Sue Noble's "Perfect Wood Finishing
Made Easy", and her technique is consistent with the advice from the
list. I didn't trust her advice fully, mainly because she stops sanding
the project at 120 grit. Unless I have to remove a lot of material (as
I did today), I start at 100 or 120 and usually finish at 240 with a
ROS. I've long been a fan of Bob Flexner, and his book "Understanding
Wood Finishing" is one of my most used references. However, that book
is great on chemistry but short on technique. That leads to my question
of the day. Flexner has a new book out called "Applying Finishes". Is
this as good as it sounds to complement his first book?
For anyone interested, this finishing effort is a practice session for
my major project for next year, which is a scratch built, heirloom
quality grandfather clock. I plan to make that of walnut, and my
notional finish is Danish oil. I'm sure that project will generate many
questions to the list along the way. After reviewing all of the current
offerings I could find, and a hundred or more photos of colonial vintage
clocks, my daughter and I decided that the one in the current Woodcraft
catalog (pg 125) was the one I would build for her. I bought the plans,
and it is obvious that this will be a challenging project. On the odd
chance that someone on the list has built that clock, I sure would like
talk about it. Regards,
Gerald
From: Ray Berry [rb at ipw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:32 AM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Danish Oil
Hi Gerald & Co
I missed a bit of this thread, but I would add 2 things.
1. Do not neglect to use wire wool 0000 - it makes for a finer finish at
the end IMHO.
2. Instead of Danish Oil, use Liberon Finishing Oil. It has all the
benefits of Danish Oil and much more, I used to use Danish Oil but now only
use Liberon Finishing Oil.
Take care all - I wouldn't wish the virus I have on anyone... see ya when I
feel better.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 5:16 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Danish oil.
Ok, we're about due for the dumb question of the week. The Danish oil that I
have seen seems to lean towards dark hues. Is Danish oil traditionally a
dark finish or can it be had in "natural" finish?
How does Danish oil differ from Tung oil? There's not much sense in checking
in our town since the finish of choice for "fine" woodworking is poly.
Have I asked enough silly questions yet? Why is the sky blue? Are we there
yet? 8^)
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:18 PM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Danish oil.
Danish oil can and does come in a natural or clear finish. Even though
it's a petroleum dirivitive, it will darken the wood somewhat as any oil
will.
Tung oil is a product pressed from the nuts of the Tung tree.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:27 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Danish oil.
Howdy Jim
Up until yesterday I would have said that Danish oil is a tung oil that
contains some varnish like resins and a substance called asphalium (sp?)
that will provide a quicker build and a measure more protection then
straight tung oil, which is a pure oil that is pressed from tung nuts.
However, yesterday my copy of the woodshop news arrived with it's usual
column on finishing, written by the new's regular finishing editor who is
non other then Bob Flexner.
In summary the article is an overview of finishes and states (also in
summary) that tung oil was introduced to this country about a hundred years
ago and was used to make a more water resistant varnish and was not used as
a finish in itself until a couple of decades ago, and that is mostly due to
mislabeling.
It would seem that MOST oils sold as tung oil is actually a varnish that is
cut 50 percent with mineral sprits. From there Bob goes on to overview
varnish by stating that varnish (these days) is made of alkyd resins cooked
up with modified soybean oil (Soya). While Bob doesn't go into Danish Oil
in particular I would have to project that out to say that most Danish oil
is a Thinned 50/50 varnish/oil made up of alkyd resins, Soya oil, and the
asphaltium (sp again).
As an added bit of info Bob did continue on to say, relating to true tung
oil, that it is difficult to use, takes three days of 70 degree weather to
cure when the excess is wiped off (again I have to project that that would
mean that it is considerably longer should you neglect that step), and has
to be sanded between coats (dry or wet not mentioned) and actually (this one
surprised me) requires more coats, to produce an attractive finish, then
Linseed oil..
From: Wayne Jones [Wayne.Jones at internetmci.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 5:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
I purchased Danny Proulx's book, "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" and have
been studying his "systems approach" to building cabinets.
If anyone is interested in a synopsis, I would be happy to provide.
One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
particle core board. He recommends the entire cabinet carcass be made out
of this material including the back. He uses 5/8" material and recommends
buying industrial grade or cabinet grade (he indicates that different
distributors call their products by different names).
He uses PCB screws to assemble the carcass.
I am not familiar with PCB and was wondering if it is the same or similar to
MDF. Also wondering if I could substitute birch plywood. If anyone is
familiar with This approach or has any suggestions or ideas, I would be most
appreciative.
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 7:25 AM
To: Wayne Jones
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 08:05:48 -0500, you wrote:
>One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
>particle core board. He recommends the entire cabinet carcass be made out
>of this material including the back.
All the melamine sold around here is particle board core.... I've never seen an
mdf core melamine. Is their any such material ???
> Also wondering if I could substitute birch plywood.
>
No reason why you could't use birch plywood but I think it would be much more
costly. Around here, melamine is $24.00 a sheet where as birch plywood is
$42.00+ a sheet. Now, around here, if you buy pre-made cabinets, the melamine
are the cheapest, the plywood veneer are the middle of the road and the solid
wood are the most expensive... YMMV
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal desease......
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 7:56 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
The material Danny Proulx is referring to is known by many different names, and
this causes a lot of confusion. (I call it ILP, and that is absolutely
meaningless unless you buy from the same comapany--it is their abbreviation.)
The material is a particle board core with a thermally fused melamine surface.
Melamine is actually just the name of the resin which is used to saturate a
paper liner. (I did a write up on different types of plywood at my web site
which would explain this better than the "butcher job" I am doing to this
discussion this morning. http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/ )
The reasons why it is preferred for kitchen cabinetry are:
** Very resistant to stains and marking. A material which I used to use (no
longer available) was so resistant that contact cement would come off, indelible
marker, wood stain, anything! Most of the types aren't this resistant, but they
are pretty good.
** Brightens up the interior of a cabinet for the benefit of the homeowner.
** Semi resistant to water damage. Water will eventually penetrate the melamine,
and damage the particle board, but it is slower than without.
I also use the 5/8 thickness. The 3/4 inch material is too heavy to work with on
a regular basis. I will use the 3/4 for shelving.
Don't forget, because nothing sticks to this stuff, you should really dado all
joints to provide a gluing area.
Rick Christopherson
Wayne Jones wrote:
> I purchased Danny Proulx's book, "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" and have
> been studying his "systems approach" to building cabinets.
>
> If anyone is interested in a synopsis, I would be happy to provide.
>
> One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
> particle core board. He recommends the entire cabinet carcass be made out
> of this material including the back. He uses 5/8" material and recommends
> buying industrial grade or cabinet grade (he indicates that different
> distributors call their products by different names).
>
> He uses PCB screws to assemble the carcass.
>
> I am not familiar with PCB and was wondering if it is the same or similar to
> MDF. Also wondering if I could substitute birch plywood. If anyone is
> familiar with This approach or has any suggestions or ideas, I would be most
> appreciative.
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 7:23 AM
To: Wayne Jones
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Wayne Jones wrote:
> One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
> particle core board.
Here in Montreal, I'd say that this is the material of choice for 80%
of the carcasses when the european method is used. Doors made of it
are for low end of the market. No counter is ever made with it.
> He uses PCB screws to assemble the carcass.
It works somewhat. For durability I prefer to make grooves and use
plenty of glue for the bottom and back : the excess of glue, once
fully dried, can be knock off loose since melamine is so slick using a
chisel. This method gives more solidity and weight support.
> I am not familiar with PCB and was wondering if it is the same or similar to
> MDF.
In my opinion, it is quite inferior. PCB is exactly presswood covered
with melamine. Now is the better quality necessary for carcasses ?
> Also wondering if I could substitute birch plywood.
IMHO, the great advantage of melamine is the ease of maintenance and
resistance to wear. Birch, for carcasses, would have to be finished
and even then the shelves would have to be covered with paper. I
personally don't use PCB for anything that shows because it yellows
very quickly and so much so that the effect shows on all but the
darkest of shades.
If anyone is
> familiar with This approach or has any suggestions or ideas, I would be most
> appreciative.
Done. Have a good weekend.
Jean M.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 7:39 AM
To: Brian Molinari
Cc: Wayne Jones; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Brian Molinari wrote:
>
> On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 08:05:48 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
> >particle core board. He recommends the entire cabinet carcass be made out
> >of this material including the back.
>
> All the melamine sold around here is particle board core.... I've never seen an
> mdf core melamine. Is their any such material ???
Fellas,
I'm sure there such a material, but not readily available by the sheet.
Actually, the melamine is not particle board. Whats available is usually
a LDF (Low Density Fiberboard as opposed to MDF, a Medium Density
Fiberboard).
> Brian........
> molinari at tiac.net
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 8:51 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Rick,
There are glues made for gluing melamine "surfaces" to the particle board core.
"RooGlue" is one branded product, but there are more brands on the market. It
doesn't work on melamine to melamine, but is effective on assemblies where the
substrate is exposed and is to be joined to a "melamined" surface.
Additionally, I have used polyurethane adhesives to assemble melamine to
melamine. I have received word from others of their success in doing the same.
Joints intentionally stressed to the point of failure in the case of both
adhesives resulted in fairly deep removal of the substrate. In other words,
the joint was stronger than the substrate and the adhesive may have penetrated
through the melamine coating and into the substrate.
With the above said, your suggestion for dados is probably a safe and sound one
for long term joint integrity and appearance. Some cabinetmakers and closet
"organizer" companies use neither glue or dados, choosing to make their
asemblies with a variety of screws, specialized fasteners or biscuits.
Regarding the strength of melamine to melamine polyurethane "glued" joints for
the long term . . . I have no idea. My reason for making the assembly was to
see if it would work at all. When it did, I laid the broken samples aside and
forgot about them.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Rick Christopherson wrote:
>
> Don't forget, because nothing sticks to this stuff, you should really dado all
> joints to provide a gluing area.
>
> Rick Christopherson
>
--
From: Lori Henderson [lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:15 AM
To: Wayne Jones
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Hi, Wayne
I've not seen his book, but Canadian Woodworker had an article written
by Danny Proulx sometime back, so I am familiar with what you are
referencing.
My husband built a number of storage units on similar principles ...
slab construction, birch plywood. We used biscuits for the joinery, and
ordinary offset (?) hinges. Not sure if that is the proper name ... they
form a 90 degree angle, and work with a 5/8" edge. Doors are straight
overlay, no lip. They were very straightforward to build. I finished
them with a few coats of Danish Oil, using 600 grit wet/dry sand paper.
I did put a urethane coating on them, because of the wear they would
get, but that stuff is difficult to keep smooth. The oil is a messy
proposition, but the results are fantastic. They are beautiful, both
those done with straight Danish Oil, and those done with a reddish tint,
to match this office. (The straight oil gives a decidedly yellow hue.)
The birch, though, cost $65 per sheet, on average. (We did a number of
office units over a period of a few years). I estimated $100 per sheet,
after finishing. Melamine sheets here are $29 and are finished both
sides, and often on sale. Both materials have iron-on tape available.
I am now intending to make kitchen wall cupboards, and to modify the
base cupboards, and will be using the 5/8" Melamine. This is particle
board. (I recently got some of the similarly finished pressboard for
utility shelving ... Not sure I would care for that as kitchen
cupboards.) .... I have 4 sheets ... actually 8 half sheets, waiting for
me to get to. However, for me the problem is cutting, so I got inspired
the other day, and will make all of the standard wall units using 5/8"
Melamine shelving, the depth of the units. I will use the biscuit
joiner, instead of screws, and the ordinary offset hinges, rather than
the European ones that Proulx uses. I will use 1/4" white hardboard for
the backs. The particle board is VERY heavy, although pressboard seems
even heavier.
Good luck with your project!
Lori
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:33 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Yes, I was/am aware of glues which are supposed to work with the Melamine sheets.
No. I have not tested them in any way. However, My thoughts are to keep in mind that
this material is a resin impregnated paper. Delamination of the paper or removal of
the paper from the substrate is common (excuse me, MAY be common). This is the only
reason why I would not rely on an adhesive or cement which bonds to the surface.
Don't get me wrong, I think you have much more experience with adhesives than I do,
and I wouldn't contravene your ideas. I just wanted to explain why I personally will
not rely on a joint to the melamine surface. My home shop is setup for fast dado
production, so I have not had the reason to examine other ideas.
"C.E.(Chuck)Ring" wrote:
> Rick,
>
> There are glues made for gluing melamine "surfaces" to the particle board core.
> "RooGlue" is one branded product, but there are more brands on the market. It
> doesn't work on melamine to melamine, but is effective on assemblies where the
> substrate is exposed and is to be joined to a "melamined" surface.
>
> Additionally, I have used polyurethane adhesives to assemble melamine to
> melamine. I have received word from others of their success in doing the same.
>
> Joints intentionally stressed to the point of failure in the case of both
> adhesives resulted in fairly deep removal of the substrate. In other words,
> the joint was stronger than the substrate and the adhesive may have penetrated
> through the melamine coating and into the substrate.
>
> With the above said, your suggestion for dados is probably a safe and sound one
> for long term joint integrity and appearance. Some cabinetmakers and closet
> "organizer" companies use neither glue or dados, choosing to make their
> asemblies with a variety of screws, specialized fasteners or biscuits.
>
> Regarding the strength of melamine to melamine polyurethane "glued" joints for
> the long term . . . I have no idea. My reason for making the assembly was to
> see if it would work at all. When it did, I laid the broken samples aside and
> forgot about them.
>
> Chuck
> C.E.(Chuck) Ring
> Edgewood, New Mexico USA
> http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
> http://www.woodworking.org
>
> Rick Christopherson wrote:
>
> >
> > Don't forget, because nothing sticks to this stuff, you should really dado all
> > joints to provide a gluing area.
> >
> > Rick Christopherson
> >
>
> --
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Jean,
Why would Birch shelves have to be paper covered if there was a good
finish on them to begin with?
TIA,
Frederik
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 11:10 AM
To: Rick Christopherson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Rick Christopherson wrote:
>
> Yes, I was/am aware of glues which are supposed to work with the Melamine sheets.
> No. I have not tested them in any way. However, My thoughts are to keep in mind that
> this material is a resin impregnated paper. Delamination of the paper or removal of
> the paper from the substrate is common (excuse me, MAY be common). This is the only
> reason why I would not rely on an adhesive or cement which bonds to the surface.
Rick,
I would guess I have far less experience with "melamine" than you do. However,
what experience I have had is/was with the "thermo-fused" products. With this
process the resin and paper are "as one with the substrate". I've not seen
delamination of thermo-fused melamine products, but I'm sure with defective
manufacturing processes such has and will occur. On those sheets of material
which go through a valid process of "thermo-fusing", I don't believe one can
peel the "resin paper" from the substrate as the paper and resin truly are part
of the substrate. I've tried to lift the "melamine" from the substrate along
edges and find that the melamine and substrate come off in small pieces . . .
forever joined together.
As I attempted to say in my last post, I have no argument with dados as a
joinery application and while some of my testing of adhesives is close to
scientific, most of it has been carried out in my shop. Sort of Rube Goldberg
(sp?) style. None-the-less I am confident my findings are valid and I hope,
useful. I guess bottom line; there's a seat for every rear end in this old
world and we all seek our own methods which work for us individually.
I've seen images of some of your work and one can't argue with the kind of
success exhibited through those images.
Chuck
> Don't get me wrong, I think you have much more experience with adhesives than I do,
> and I wouldn't contravene your ideas. I just wanted to explain why I personally will
> not rely on a joint to the melamine surface. My home shop is setup for fast dado
> production, so I have not had the reason to examine other ideas.
>
> "C.E.(Chuck)Ring" wrote:
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 11:32 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Wayne Jones; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:38:48 -0500, you wrote:
>> All the melamine sold around here is particle board core.... I've never seen an
>> mdf core melamine. Is their any such material ???
>
>Fellas,
>I'm sure there such a material, but not readily available by the sheet.
>Actually, the melamine is not particle board. Whats available is usually
>a LDF (Low Density Fiberboard as opposed to MDF, a Medium Density
>Fiberboard).
>
Don, The melamine sold around here is a particle board core... It's as plain as
day around the edges.... I've also planed off the melamine just to compare it to
the particle board sold around here..... Same coarse garbage that swells around
moisture (my cellar workshop)..... Maybe they sell a mdf or ldf core melamine,
but not around here, at least not on the store shelves........
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Windows, A colorfull clown suit for dos......
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 11:28 AM
To: frederik at gorge.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Frederik Fouillade wrote:
>
> Jean,
>
> Why would Birch shelves have to be paper covered if there was a good
> finish on them to begin with?
>
> TIA,
>
> Frederik
Interior of cabinets are submitted to rougher use than one could
imagine at first. We store all kinds of stuff there : canned goods,
chemicals like cleaning products or liquid plumber. The underside of
most china and other stone ware is usually left unglazed so it won't
spend the mealtime skidding across the table : it's also very
abrasive. Metal and glass pots will make dents...
There are preventive and protective solutions for all those problems
of course but it has been my experience that only a minority of people
care to use them. If you find somebody ready to take the little
necessary precautions in your practice, treasure them and spoil them
to death.
Jean
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 12:18 PM
To: cring at concentric.net
Cc: Rick Christopherson; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
C.E.(Chuck)Ring wrote:
>
> Rick Christopherson wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I was/am aware of glues which are supposed to work with the Melamine sheets.
> > No. I have not tested them in any way. However, My thoughts are to keep in mind that
> > this material is a resin impregnated paper. Delamination of the paper or removal of
> > the paper from the substrate is common (excuse me, MAY be common). This is the only
> > reason why I would not rely on an adhesive or cement which bonds to the surface.
>
> Rick,
>
> I would guess I have far less experience with "melamine" than you do. However,
> what experience I have had is/was with the "thermo-fused" products. With this
> process the resin and paper are "as one with the substrate". I've not seen
> delamination of thermo-fused melamine products, but I'm sure with defective
> manufacturing processes such has and will occur. On those sheets of material
> which go through a valid process of "thermo-fusing", I don't believe one can
> peel the "resin paper" from the substrate as the paper and resin truly are part
> of the substrate. I've tried to lift the "melamine" from the substrate along
> edges and find that the melamine and substrate come off in small pieces . . .
> forever joined together.
>
> As I attempted to say in my last post, I have no argument with dados as a
> joinery application and while some of my testing of adhesives is close to
> scientific, most of it has been carried out in my shop. Sort of Rube Goldberg
> (sp?) style. None-the-less I am confident my findings are valid and I hope,
> useful. I guess bottom line; there's a seat for every rear end in this old
> world and we all seek our own methods which work for us individually.
>
> I've seen images of some of your work and one can't argue with the kind of
> success exhibited through those images.
>
> Chuck
> > Don't get me wrong, I think you have much more experience with adhesives than I do,
> > and I wouldn't contravene your ideas. I just wanted to explain why I personally will
> > not rely on a joint to the melamine surface. My home shop is setup for fast dado
> > production, so I have not had the reason to examine other ideas.
> >
> > "C.E.(Chuck)Ring" wrote:
>
> --
> C.E.(Chuck) Ring
> Edgewood, New Mexico USA
> http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
> http://www.woodworking.org
I happen to avoid working with any engineered wood (EW) with the
exception of MDF (which is the finest practical substrate I can get for
laying up veneer that I can buy despite it's weight and joinery
problem). And since I do not make a lot of new furniture, I instead do
get to see a lot other peoples failures.
Despite whatever joinery or gluing precautions are taken by mfrs.,
virtually anything less than MDF and often includes MDF, does not hold
up in use where joinery is concerned! EW joinery, whether dovetail (the
worst) or mortice and tenon is counter-productive regarding strength.
That is why most furniture made from these materials have little or no
joinery. Instead, the core is glued and/or screwed or other mechanical
fasteners are used.
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Jones <Wayne.Jones at internetmci.com>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:34 AM
Subject: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
>I purchased Danny Proulx's book, "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" and have
>been studying his "systems approach" to building cabinets.
>
>If anyone is interested in a synopsis, I would be happy to provide.
>
>One of the keys to his approach is using a material called PCB...melamine
>particle core board
Which is why I put returned the book straight away. Yuck, I hate melamine
and particle board. To each their own, but I like at least a hint of wood
in my wood. If you are looking for a "system" approach, I prefer Paul
Levine's Making Kitchen Cabinets, published by Taunton. The companion video
is good as well.
Another excellent Taunton book on the subject is Building Traditional
Kitchen Cabinets by Jim Tolpin. Don't let the title scare you, there are
still biscuits and man made materials to be found inside the book :). If I
could only have one book on building kitchen cabinets, this would be my
choice.
John
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 2:25 PM
To: Wayne Jones
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
Wayne;
>One of the keys to his approach is using a material called >PCB...melamine. particle core board.
In Canada, at least, this material goes by the term Melamine Componetnt
Panel-MCP.
There are at least two qualities of finish based on the weight of the
melamine / paper used in the faces. The lighter one almost allows the
core to read through.
> He recommends the entire cabinet carcass be made out
> of this material including the back. He uses 5/8" material and recommends
> buying industrial grade or cabinet grade (he indicates that different
> distributors call their products by different names).
>
> He uses PCB screws to assemble the carcass.
>
> I am not familiar with PCB and was wondering if it is the same or similar to
> MDF.
MDF is medium density fiberboard and is normally unfaced I believe.
Also wondering if I could substitute birch plywood. If anyone is
> familiar with This approach or has any suggestions or ideas, I would be most
> appreciative.
No reason why you cant ues a different panel material with his
construction system IMO.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 6:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Danny Proulx - Kitchen Cabinets
'Round here, and like they do in Harvey's neck of the woods, we call
melamine products MCP (melamine composite panel).
What does PCB stand for?
What does ILP stand for?
Something to keep in mind, there are grades of overlaid panel products
of which I believe melamine is the better grade. There is a product
called Lamtec that is at the low end and can be substituted. Here's a
glossary of terms at this URL if you've got nothing better to do.
http://www.lma.org/lma.htm#Glossary
Keith Bohn
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 5:49 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Debarking a sapling
I've got a sapling in the woods that has a unique twisted appearance
to it (like a corkscrew). It's a small sapling among the big boys so I
thought I'd make a walking stick out of it. I was told to wait until
spring when the sap was running as that would be the best time to
remove the bark the easiest. Is this true or does it matter? What is
the easiest way to remove the bark cleanly?
Thanks!
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:18 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Debarking a sapling
Adding to the uncertaintys, I thought it was BEFORE the sap was running
again. Call a sawmill, who would know better? How much bark could a
sapling have anyhow? Also, how much usable (strong) wood is there to
make the walking stick.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:44 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Debarking a sapling
Sorta depends on what kind of tree it is. Hickory can be bruised on the
bark, and slipped off...'course if it's hickory, it probably has more
character if the bark is left on. It will cure up tightly.
I'd take a longer piece than you need and experiment on one end with
bruising, peeling, or just plain ol' whittlin'. Drawknife might speed
things up. A flap sander will work on rough bark, and take it down to
the point that some inner bark is left on to give character, too.
I cut a sapling that had been wrapped in a strong vine for several years.
It is a beautiful spiraled hiking stick now, bark still on and very
tight. It is a Japanese type of hardwood and only about 1 1/4 thick, but
those spirals just invite the hand to hold it. I'm sure debarking would
have lost some of the definition.
Glen, in Minneapolis
From: Alec Milne [prftmtrs at cadvision.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:18 AM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Debarking a sapling
I have a book I just purchased called: Stick Making, A Compete Course (ISBN
1 86108 083 2). It states that most stick makers leave the bark on, and
think it is criminal to do otherwise. It seems the art is in the seasoning.
The book states that stick cut in winter should be seasoned for 12 months,
and that stick cut in any other season should be seasoned at least 3 months.
They predict dire results if the stick is made too soon.
By seasoning they seasoning they mean tying 5 or 6 sticks together and
hanging them from the rafters for a year. They then steam the bends out the
sticks and proceed.
They show many examples. several of which have the spiral of which you
speak. One has taken the spiral and carved and painted it so that it appears
that a snake is crawling up the shaft of the stick. Very convincing.
If there is a large root with the stick take it as well so that you can make
the handle and shaft from one piece.
If you need anymore info from the book, let me know.
Cheers,
Alec Milne
From: Alec Milne [prftmtrs at cadvision.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 11:38 AM
To: Paul Bonner; chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Debarking a sapling
Yes, thanks. Monday morning and all.
The book also states that there should not be too much taper. If the stick
tapers by more than 1/2 of its diametre, then it will not be balanced. The
stick should be between 4 and 5 feet in length and 3/4" - 1 1/8" in
diametre, with 1" being ideal.
Alec
Calgary, CDA
>I would have thought that a stick cut in winter would have contained less
>sap than a stick cut in summer.
>Did you mean that a stick cut in spring, summer or autumn should be
seasoned
>for three months longer that one cut in winter?
>
>Paul.
>Essex. UK
>
>
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 10:46 AM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Debarking a sapling
Th absolute best time to remove bark is July. I use a sloyd knife to cut
gently through the bark, then peel away.
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:30 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Debarking a sapling
I know that cedar is much easier to peel in the spring than it is now. The
sap does make a difference.
John, Cottage Country Furniture
From: bill locke [blocke at tmisnet.com]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 12:11 PM
To: oak
Subject: deck refinishing
Hi All,
I need some advice on what to do with a deck. About 10 years ago it was
built with fir and finished with some kind of oil stain. About four
years later the next owner came along and put a clear poly finish on it
which I am sure looked good originally. The California sun and heat has
caused the poly to peel and crack in the last four years. I suspect
this is due to the poly not adhering to the oil soaked wood. I thought
of using a floor sander on it, but is was screwed down with deck screws
which would be next to impossible to sink deeper. Maybe there is some
way to strip the poly chemically? Is their any way to correct this
other than replacing the decking or a hand grenade?
T.I.A.,
Bill in San Diego
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:43 AM
To: blocke at tmisnet.com
Cc: oak
Subject: Re: Deck Refinishing
Bill,
sounds like difficult problem, and if you live in California, getting an
effective stripper will be especially difficult. Let just mention the
following and leave better answers up to some of folks on this list who
deal with decks, which I don't. After stripping, wash down the entire
deck with Bleach. This will lighten the wood very well. Then a light
sanding after it throughly dries, and re-coat. If you want to retain the
light color, although somewhat yellowish, there is a product made by
"Wolman" a preservative mfr. called "Raincoat" that waterproofs the
wood---not a finish topcoat. Raincoat requires re-coating every two
years.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 9:29 PM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Definition of - "Deal"
Bruce and all;
"Deal" in my dictionary is now a pine or fir board of several specific
sizes from which others are cut. A "standard deal" is 3" x 9" x 12'
long.
>
> "Deal" is 1.5 to 2 inch (_real_ dimentions) thick pine
> planks. Imagine makeing a _cheap_ desk, table, or bookcase
> of "deal" today. Instead we use nominal 1" which is really
> 3/4 inch. And what do you suppose those cheap deal tables
> go for in the antique market today?
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 1998 4:05 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Definition of - "Deal"
That must be a Canadian dictionary. :) Interesting,
I had no idea the word was still used. Also, I always
thought a "standard deal" was five cards down....
"Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary" (a
cheapie, pub. by Simon & Schuster -- and "Webster's" is
meaningless.):
1. the division of a peice of fir or pine timber made
by sawing it into any of several sizes; a board or plank.
2. fir or pine wood.
I think I got my original definition from a
Merriam-Webster, but it was from memory. That dictionary is
currently misplaced.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 10:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Delat Circle Cutting Jig
Just got back from Builder's Square, (going out of business sale, 25-60% off
today), and saw the Delta Circle Cuting Jig 28-193 for just under
$12.00.(US) Metal table, etc., that can cut circles 1 1/2" to 32". Will
that work on my Jet 14" band saw? Thanks, Todd.
From: nmichels [nmichels at concentric.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 11:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Delta B.O.S.S.
Andy & Theresa Ball wrote:
>
> Anyone own/operated one of these? If so how do you rate its
> operation? Are there many different sources/manufacturers of the
> sanding sleeves? they look kind of pricey.
> Thanks......Andy
Andy:
I've got one and I like it. It ran good right out of the box. The
spindle was and still is right on 90 degrees to the table. It's one of
the quietest machines in my shop. I do think the table top could have
been finished better. The dust collection bag works, but using the port
to attach a vacum system would be much more effective. Just using the
bag, I get a lot of dust build up on the table with 2" stock and a
coarse sleeve. If this gets under the wood, then the ability to sand at
a right angle is lost.
If you buy one I recommend also buying the accessory kit with all the
different size spindles. Having the right diameter spindle does a
better job. The machine (any oscillating spindle sander) is designed to
sand an inside radius. If the spindle is too large it won't fit and too
small makes it difficult to get a smooth arc. Sanding a straight line
or an outside radius is better done with any machine where the abrasive
is backed by a flat surface. (It's been my observation that many
woodworkers will spend $100 for a machine, but only get 70% of it's
abilities because they don't spend another $20 for accessories).
When I first got it, I bought from Klingspore, 2 packages that had 1 ea
of 3 different grits for each of the 6 spindles. I've used the machine
a lot and have yet to buy more. Keep in mind that unless you're sanding
wood that is more than 2", you're only using 1 end of the sleeve. If
you wear out one end, you flip it over and use the other end.
You can buy machines that are cheaper and certainly machines that are
more expensive, but for me I felt the Delta was the cost effective
choice.
Just my opinion.
Norm
From: Michael J. Register [Development Contractor] [mjr at Rosebud.XAIT.Xerox.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 10:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Delta Mortise Machine bits
I've been using the left over bits from my cheap drill press
attached mortiser for my dedicated machine I now need to know
what is the best and where can I find them?
-Mike
From: MV [mvarela at megsinet.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:10 PM
To: theOak listserve
Subject: Delta table saw & DeWalt router Questions
Hi all,
Was wondering if youall could provide any info on the following two
items:
1.
I have a chance to purchase a used Delta 10" table saw (model 36-380).
It's 4 years old, 1HP, direct drive. The guy wants $300 for it. I want
to have some idea of what this thing looks like and if $300 is a good
deal before I make the drive out to see it (i.e. a one trip deal). I've
looked through some tool catalogs I have, but have been unable to find
that particular model number.
Is it an older discontinued model & if so, what would be the closest
present model?
2.
I HAVE purchased a used DeWalt 2HP plunge router (DW621). I would like
to get my hands on the owners manual for this tool. Anybody know where,
how I could get one without buying the router new?
As always, thanks for any info, leads, comments, suggests, etc.
-Mel
From: Marty Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:23 PM
To: theOak listserve; MV
Subject: Re: Delta table saw & DeWalt router Questions
Personally, I'd steer clear of direct drive saws. If the motor goes out,
you're usually at the mercy of the maker of the machine. $300
sounds steep for something like that.
DeWalt has a web page, perhaps you could gleen their 800 number
from there. www.dewalt.com. Duh, phone number is
1-800-4DEWALT
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:58 PM
To: theOak listserve
Subject: Re: Delta table saw & DeWalt router Questions
I'm not familiar with that model, but if it is a direct drive, then it is at
the bottom end of the Delta table saw lineup. IMO, for $300 used you should
be getting at least a contractors saw (the type with an induction motor and
belt drive).
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 9:45 PM
To: MV; theOak listserve
Subject: RE: Delta table saw & DeWalt router Questions
Mel,
1. It looks like it is probably a fairly light duty Contractor's saw. It
is not in the current catalog I have. If it is in good shape, it should be
worth $300.
2. My guess is that DeWalt will send you an owner's manual gratis. Lookee
here: http://www.dewalt.com/customerservice/index.html
If DeWalt is anywhere near as good as Delta, they will send you any info you
want immediately, and at no charge.
Gary Cavener
From: Erich Bodensiek [eadesigns at netscape.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:02 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Delta table-saw / motor will not turn blade
I have a Delta table-saw ( motor 1313314 ). I went to cut a piece of
wood & the shaft for the blade does not turn but you can hear the motor
spin as it normally does when you turn it on. I disassembled the unit &
removed the motor to try to remove the 4 screws holding the front cover
in order to see what the problem is, but the screws will not turn - it
appears that the motor is factory sealed. Any advice on this would be
appreciated. How expensive would it be to replace this motor or have
the existing refurbished. Can it be opened to check ? I had bought this
table saw 5 years ago new. Thanks in advance.
ERB
____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail
From: CDWeinke at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 3:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Delta table-saw / motor will not turn blade
At one time Delta made a "motorized table saw". It was one step down from the
contractor's saw, and was aimed at the homeowner market. It was billed as a
having a direct-drive motor, but in fact when you opened it up (and described
in the manual) it has a small 'toothed' belt running between the motor and the
blade arbor shaft. If that belt were broken, the motor would continue to run,
but the arbor wouldn't turn.
The earlier models of this saw had bad motors. It was the first table saw I
had and the bearings disintegrated after about 3 months. I called Delta, and
the woman in parts/service told me which model number I had without my
volunteering, and sent out replacement bearings. Those bearings disintegrated
the next month and Delta sent me a whole new motor, at which time I relplaced
the motor and sold the saw. It was therefore with great trepidation that I
bought a Unisaw, being greatly worried that all Delta products were going to
be of as poor quality. The Unisaw has held up admireably. I think Delta just
just too many corners to meet the cost bogey on that model saw.
charlie
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 5:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Delta table-saw / motor will not turn blade
Erich,
It sounds a lot like the problem I had a few years back. It actually
started gradually with some slipage. I mean by that that the blade stalled
once in a while when cutting stock (mainly ripping). The problem was
basically related to what Charlie described in an earlier post.
"It (the motor) was built as a having a direct-drive motor, but in fact when
you opened it up (and described in the manual) it has a small 'toothed' belt
running between the motor and the blade arbor shaft. If that belt were
broken, the motor would continue to run,
but the arbor wouldn't turn. "
So my advise is: first, get the sweat out of your forehead (its probably
just the belt inside and the motor is fine). I would concentrate in trying
to get those four screws out (take a close look at your owner's manual). It
is a small belt (not expensive).
Michel
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; eadesigns at netscape.net
Subject: Delta table-saw / motor will not turn blade
ERB,
A couple years ago, before the motor actually did burn up, I employed a 10"
craftsman tablesaw. It too had the same symptoms - noise with no spin.
I called Sears repair. He came out. He asked if I had a compressor. I
did. He verified the problem was as described. It was. He blew the
compressed air into the motor housing. Dust went everywhere. He turned the
saw on, and it worked perfect. As I was writing out the $60 check for the
service call, he explained that dust gets between the contacts inside the
housing causing them to make poor contact. It happens all the time.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: eadesigns at netscape.net
I have a Delta table-saw ( motor 1313314 ). I went to cut a piece of
wood & the shaft for the blade does not turn but you can hear the motor
spin as it normally does when you turn it on. I disassembled the unit &
removed the motor to try to remove the 4 screws holding the front cover
in order to see what the problem is, but the screws will not turn - it
appears that the motor is factory sealed. Any advice on this would be
appreciated. How expensive would it be to replace this motor or have
the existing refurbished. Can it be opened to check ? I had bought this
table saw 5 years ago new. Thanks in advance.
ERB
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 5:58 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: DeltaCad on CD
SWMBO and I went to an office supply Borg last night (it was an OfficeMax
but I assume that the store in your area--we have one intersection with an
OfficeMax, an Office Depot and a Staples all right there--will have the
same
stuff) because she wanted something they had there. I have no idea
what.
While she looked through the selection, I wandered over to the cheap-
software aisle just browsing. Mostly games, but they did have three
copies of the well-regarded DeltaCad on CD. Ten bucks and you can
take it home with you. (You probably need to send in the shareware
fee too...)
If you want this program, but don't want to tie up your computer and
modem downloading it from the Web, this sounds like a good plan to me.
--jmowreader
"So when do we start getting excited?"
"When he wins the race."
--Richard Childress to Larry McReynolds, at the 1998
Daytona 500.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 2:10 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: depth of dados
>I'm putting the finish on a 4-bookcase project and have the "next"
>project in mind. The shelves are going to be 3/4" (19mm) VC plywood
>maybe solid wood. The carcass will be the same or 3/4" (19mm) MDF
>depending cost. The joints are simple dado and glue. There's lots of mdf
>and plywood scraps in the garage just itchin' to become something else.
>As far as the carcass goes:
> - How deep should a dado be?
At least an eighth of an inch.
> I've seen the 1/3 rule. That is the depth should be 1/3 the
> panel's thickness.
Never understood this really. The reason for the dado is to give the
adjoining piece a registration with the upright. Always been my
opinion that you want to leave as much meat as possible for nailing or
screwing.
> - Does the construction method change when different materials
> are used?
As for instance, solid wood where end grain come in contact with face
grain? I'd have to say no. On the other hand long grain to long
grain where the glue could get some purchase you can make things
deeper for more glue surface.
> i.e. mdf carcass to plywood/solid wood shelf, v.s plywood
> carcass to plywood shelf
Oh that, well I'd say that most panel products can be worked the same.
Trouble is I wouldn't rely solely on glue and clamps unless the cases
are to be fixed to the wall. Freestanding units could rack and bust
the joints.
Keith Bohn
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:11 PM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: depth of dados
Duke of URLs wrote:
>
> >I'm putting the finish on a 4-bookcase project and have the "next"
> >project in mind. The shelves are going to be 3/4" (19mm) VC plywood
> >maybe solid wood. The carcass will be the same or 3/4" (19mm) MDF
> >depending cost. The joints are simple dado and glue. There's lots of mdf
> >and plywood scraps in the garage just itchin' to become something else.
>
> >As far as the carcass goes:
> > - How deep should a dado be?
>
> At least an eighth of an inch.
>
> > I've seen the 1/3 rule. That is the depth should be 1/3 the
> > panel's thickness.
>
> Never understood this really. The reason for the dado is to give the
> adjoining piece a registration with the upright. Always been my
> opinion that you want to leave as much meat as possible for nailing or
> screwing.
Thats partially true, but you always want to leave enough meat so that
the shelf has sufficient support and also doesn't pull out under a load.
1/3 should be the minimum depth, and 1/2 is even better!
>
> > - Does the construction method change when different materials
> > are used?
>
> As for instance, solid wood where end grain come in contact with face
> grain? I'd have to say no. On the other hand long grain to long
> grain where the glue could get some purchase you can make things
> deeper for more glue surface.
I'd say yes. Not all materials are born equally and with the same same
strengths. Construction methods should change accordingly.
>
> > i.e. mdf carcass to plywood/solid wood shelf, v.s plywood
> > carcass to plywood shelf
>
> Oh that, well I'd say that most panel products can be worked the same.
> Trouble is I wouldn't rely solely on glue and clamps unless the cases
> are to be fixed to the wall. Freestanding units could rack and bust
> the joints.
>
> Keith Bohn
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:17 AM
To: lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: depth of dados
> As far as the carcass goes:
> - How deep should a dado be?
> I've seen the 1/3 rule. That is the depth should be 1/3
> the panel's thickness.
For the potential load of a bookcase, I'd go with 1/2 the
thickness of 3/4 material.
> - Does the construction method change when different
> materials are used?
> i.e. mdf carcass to plywood/solid wood shelf, v.s
> plywood carcass to plywood shelf
Since you probably won't like the exposed edge of a plywood
shelf, plan on edge banding the shelf with a 2"-3" piece
of solid wood. Plough a grove it's length, to accept a
tongue on the edge of the plywood shelf. Make the carcass
dado a sliding dovetail for the length of the solid wood
band. Also, make the back substantial enough that you could
fasten the shelves through the back, to prevent sagging.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Lokesh Dookie [lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:30 AM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: depth of dados
Hi Roger,
> > - Does the construction method change when different
> > materials are used?
> > i.e. mdf carcass to plywood/solid wood shelf, v.s
> > plywood carcass to plywood shelf
>
> Since you probably won't like the exposed edge of a plywood
> shelf, plan on edge banding the shelf with a 2"-3" piece
> of solid wood. Plough a grove it's length, to accept a
> tongue on the edge of the plywood shelf. Make the carcass
> dado a sliding dovetail for the length of the solid wood
> band. Also, make the back substantial enough that you could
> fasten the shelves through the back, to prevent sagging.
I didn't think of the sliding dovetail but will try it in the next
project. It sounds like it'd help to keep the sides together. Would you
taper the sliding dovetail slightly or not?
The bookcases I'm finishing right now have 3/8" deep dados for the top
and bottom panels. The shelves are all adjustable and have a rear
support in the middle of the back. All shelves and the carcass are
edgbanded with 3/4"x1" solid wood.
BTW, why a 2" to 3" deep edgband? Seems like overkill. I've usually seen
3/8" been used
>
> --
> Roger
> Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
> Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:34 PM
To: lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: depth of dados
Lokesh Dookie wrote:
> > > - Does the construction method change when different
> > > materials are used?
> > > i.e. mdf carcass to plywood/solid wood shelf, v.s
> > > plywood carcass to plywood shelf
> >
> > Since you probably won't like the exposed edge of a plywood
> > shelf, plan on edge banding the shelf with a 2"-3" piece
> > of solid wood. Plough a grove it's length, to accept a
> > tongue on the edge of the plywood shelf. Make the carcass
> > dado a sliding dovetail for the length of the solid wood
> > band. Also, make the back substantial enough that you could
> > fasten the shelves through the back, to prevent sagging.
>
> I didn't think of the sliding dovetail but will try it in the next
> project. It sounds like it'd help to keep the sides together. Would you
> taper the sliding dovetail slightly or not?
The sliding dovetail would be housing the solid wood piece only.
> The bookcases I'm finishing right now have 3/8" deep dados for the top
> and bottom panels. The shelves are all adjustable and have a rear
> support in the middle of the back. All shelves and the carcass are
> edgbanded with 3/4"x1" solid wood.
>
> BTW, why a 2" to 3" deep edgband? Seems like overkill. I've usually seen
> 3/8" been used
Few furniture pieces get the static loading a bookcase has the potential for.
Sure adjustable shevles are convenient, but the unsupported span is the killer.
Having the shelves rest on top of pins or slotted strip brackets, the ends are
of course unsecured. There is not a way to eliminate shelf sag, without
reinforcing the shelf, or making it short. Having the shelves secured in the
dados by the mechanical advantage of the dovetail and glueing will work better.
If the shelf material is nominal 3/4", make a 1/2" dado groove across the side,
and only the front end where the solid wood strip will go needs to be a
dovetail. Even a half dovetail would work. You cannot use a 3/4" dovetail bit,
because the stock probably isn't 3/4" to start out. I have tried to cut a
dovetail on plywood, and once is enough. It probably would work with Appleply
or Baltic Birch, but not with 7 ply 3/4" plywood.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 10:31 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Designing heat ducts under furniture
I have to design an entertainment center to be used in front or on top of a
heat/ac duct (heat pump). It would be nice if I could incorporate a vent in
the base of the piece so it could sit over the existing vent, and redirect
the heat/ac out the bottom of the unit.
Has anyone looked into this before... and can it be done with minimal
consequences?
TIA
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 4:41 AM
To: Cheryl & Bill
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Designing heat ducts under furniture
I would think you had better build in a duct or
deflector. The heat can't be good for the electronics or
the furnature. I'd make it of sheet metal, and line it
(outside of duct) with some insulation.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:51 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com; ridenour at wilmington.net
Subject: RE: Designing heat ducts under furniture
I designed and made a fireplace mantle with a similar consideration, except
that I had to deal with the fireplace "blower" that was above the fireplace
opening, and right in the middle of the where the mantle piece they wanted
had to be installed.
What I came up with was an arched designed. The mantle was 10" "tall" at
either end, and 4" "tall" in the middle. Top was flat of course. The
whole thing was 6' wide so the nice sweeping concave arch underneath looked
good. Underneath the arch, inside the mantle "box", I built up nailers to
conform to the curve and then glue/nailed a piece of 1/4" red oak ply. The
shelf itself was curly red oak, with exposed 3/4" fingers joints at each
front corner where the front piece meets the side pieces. I only left
about a 1/8" overhang where the front piece meets the underneath so as not
to be restrictive of the blower, while it still covered the edge of the ply.
Worked out great.
--------------------------------------------------------
! _____________ !
!____-------- --------_____ !
(Hey, I'm in a hurry)
I left a little "flat" on either side at the bottom where the arch
transitioned to the sides.
If you are designing for a floor mount vent, I imagine you could design an
"amphitheater" type opening in the bottom. It would require more height
than if the vent were mounted on the wall at floor level. A wall mounted
vent could be "tunnelled" through pretty easily.
You could "screen" either opening with a lattice or scrollwork covering.
Design it so it is easy to clean the back of though, as dust will collect
(at least it would in my house).
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:11 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Designing heat ducts under furniture
I would consider a sub-assembly to direct the heat to the perimeter.
Use a router and cut some slots in the base. Get real fancy and make
a wood diffuser? If you don't want this hassle consider a sheet of
styrofoam on the underside of the lower carcase panel (bottom).
Keith Bohn
From: Godbout, Marc [GodboutM at andovercontrols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 7:34 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Designing heat ducts under furniture
In some of the catalogs we get, I've seen plastic hot air vent
re-directors. I don't remember which catalogs, but they are usually in
the "cheap stuff" catalogs, called "What in the World" or something like
that.
-Marc Godbout
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 9:40 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Designing heat ducts under furniture
I deal with this all the time when I make bathroom vanity and kitchen
cabinets so it's nothing to fret about.
You first determine the location of the register then where the piece will
sit in relation to that register. Next comes where to place it in the
piece, for me this is usually in the toe-kick area or that void underneath
the cabinet bottom that most people never think about. Ok, now say you
have a cabinet that is 4' wide and luckily your floor register is right in
the middle, so into the toe-kick you box in an area that is 2" wider than
the register, creating a channel for the air to travel through when the
cabinet is set over the duct opening. Then, to allow the air to travel you
cut a hole into the front of the toe-kick so that you can mount a smaller,
flush type of register (usually 3" x 12"). Now, here you can do two
things; either have a HVAC contractor make a swept duct or leave it alone
and use no duct. I recommend the latter because forced air will pressurize
that channel cavity under the toe-kick and seek the point of least
resistance and escape out the register in the toe-kick.
If you don't like the colors available for that register cover you can
paint it or they are also available in brass and wrought iron.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: chris helton [heltonhead at fuse.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 3:27 AM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Designing heat ducts under furniture
joe
even a 45 cut will greatly help the air flow, stop eddy currents in
the toe kick.
letting more heat out, instead of just heating the box out.
chris helton
hamilton, ohio
From: Stephen Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:06 PM
To: steveb at spruce.sentrol.com
Subject: Desk Clock Plans
http://www.augusthome.com/deskclfr.htm
http://www.augusthome.com/chzbrdfr.htm
From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 5:54 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Detail/Profile Sander
I want to get a detail or profile sander. The only ones I've seen
are the PC and Dremel. Any comments on these? This will not be a
heavy use item so if someone knows of a cheaper one please let me
know.
TIA
Lawrie
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 12:26 PM
To: Lawrie Silverberg
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Detail/Profile Sander
I bought the PC profile sander.Knew better all the time.It is loud and
vibrates alot which I had no way of knowing.The part I should have known
will be true no matter what brand.These sanders use only a small piece
of paper and only a small area of that touches the wood at a given time.
This leads to the paper wearing out so quickly that these tools are
almost useless.
If you are sanding small peices and don't mind changing paper often
they might be ok but otherwise I would find an alternative.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: JOHN [jrbsr at bellatlantic.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 1:54 PM
To: Lawrie Silverberg
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Detail/Profile Sander
Lawrie,
I have the PC and love it. Personally, I think that the Dremel is
too light.
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 2:24 PM
To: JOHN
Cc: Lawrie Silverberg; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Detail/Profile Sander
I too have the PC and find it very handy. If you will check the Wood
magazine online show, on of the vendors has the PC for about $80.00.
Good luck.
Dave Tinley
Waco, Texas
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 2:20 PM
To: Moose and Betty
Cc: Lawrie Silverberg; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Detail/Profile Sander
Moose and Betty wrote:
>
> I use the Porter-Cable profile sander quite a bit. I love
> it.
>
> 10Q,
>
> Moose
>
Moose,
I too have a PC profile sander and hate it.You are the third poster
that has said they love theirs.Does your sander not vibrate
excessively?Is it not loud for a small tool?Doesn't your sandpaper
wear out extremely quick because only a small peice and area of paper
is being used?
I'm just curious as to how my impression of the sander is so
different than others.How much can you sand without changing the
paper?
Mike Bridges
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 5:59 PM
To: Mike Bridges
Cc: Lawrie Silverberg; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Detail/Profile Sander
The answers to all of your questions concerning the PC
profile sander is probably....Yes.
It is too loud.
It seems to vibrate too much.
The sand paper wears out too quickly.
Of course, these are relative terms. I can not define *too
loud*, *too much*, or *too fast*.
On the other hand, it saves me time and effort in the chore
of sanding mouldings and trim pieces and does a good job at
it. It does take a bit of practice to get used to it. The
first mistake I made was in using the recommended sand
papers. I now use only 400 grit and 600 grit wet-or-dry.
It lasts longer. The second mistake I made was to use a
heavy hand. It takes only a light touch. I have also found
that a small amount of spray adhesive (contact type) does
wonders when changing the paper on the profiles. It cleans
up quite well with alcohol.
I originally bought mine to do a charity job at a local
church. It is an old (90 years) frame building with the
original wooden windows and doors. The woodwork had been
neglected for too many years, inside and outside. I have
never seen so many mullions and muntins that needed sanding
and repainting. If I had not bought the profile sander I
believe I would be still sanding the trim on those windows
and doors when the Angels come to take me to face my maker.
10Q,
Moose
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 3:36 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Devilbiss air compressor warning !!!!
This is a copy of a fax I just send to Devilbiss regarding one of their
compressors.... Please read..........
I am writing in reguards to a Devilbiss compressor, model 100E4D I have. I
purchased this compressor 18 months ago. This compressor has seen little
homeowner use. I have 2 full size stationary compressors, one in my cellar
workshop and one in my garage, also Devilbiss's. I bought this small one to
run an occasional nailgun around the house instead of stretching hoses
everywhere. I am a autobody man and also have a dozen Devilbiss sprayguns,
from MBC's to gravity feed hvlp's. I have always had great luck with
Devilbiss products and have sworn by them until now. This small compressor
broke a few days ago upon powering up. I dis-assembled it to see what had
broken. I found the screw that holds the upper and lower halves of the piston
together had broken and the lower half of the piston destroyed the cylinder
before I could shut it down. This compressor has less than 10 running hours
on it and shouldn't have failed. I put a 1/16 drill bit to the broken screw
and it went right through as though this screw was never tempered. I called
one of your local repair centers and was told that these compressors fail
quite frequently and that the part, KK4835 was $41.75... He also suggested I
call your customer service people seeing this compressor had such little use
on it. I called there and spoke with a girl, who refused to give me her name,
and explained the situation to her. She said there was nothing she could do.
I then asked to speak to your technical department and she again refused my
request. I then asked to speak to her boss and was hung up on... I find this
very upsetting and rude, as well as being a bad business practice in general,
especially after being a Devilbiss customer for over 25 years. This being
said, I have decided I will not purchase the parts to repair this compressor,
nor will I ever buy another Devilbiss product. I have never been treated so
bad by a company I've supported in my life. I buy quality products and expect
better service and treatment than you people gave me. Not only have you lost
my business, but I will also post this fax on the internet, in the
appropriate usenet newsgroups for thousands of potential Devilbiss customers
to see.
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Proofread carefully to be sure you didn't any words out.....
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 5:39 PM
To: Wendy Wilson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Devilbiss air compressor warning !!!!
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:28:34 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Brian,
>
>Thanks for the warning. For me it is very timely. I have been trying to
>decide for months what compressor to buy. I had a Sears 5 hp, that I got @
>1988 that I was very happy with, but lost it in a fire last year. And after
>my recent experience with the Sears Shopvac... i would not dare go near any
>other Craftsman product. So I was looking at Devilbiss and Campbell
>Hausfeld. Do you have any reccomendations? I am thinking 5hp, oil
>lubricated, and 120/240 volts. I will be using it mostly for air (as I do
>modstly woodturning and need to clean out sawdust/shavings constantly), but
>also some nailguns, and paint spraying. Any suggestions would be
>appreciated.
>
Actually Wendy, the Crapsman compressors are made by Devilbiss.... As for your
question, I have a Campbell Hausfeld 6hp/60 gallon in the garage that works
good.. I use it for everything from nail guns to spray guns..... And Campbell
has a 2 year warranty unlike Devilbiss's one year.... Ingersoll Rand also
makes good compressors if you can find anyone that sells them in your area...
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Proofread carefully to be sure you didn't any words out.....
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 2:51 PM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Devilbiss air compressor warning !!!!
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:33:14 -0600, you wrote:
>Brian,
>
>I urge you to post the Email address if they have one
Joe, they have a web site with one page and nothing else. I did however just
receive an e-mail from someone at Devilbiss asking me the details but not
promising she could do anything about it... In my fax to Devilbiss, I included
my home address but not my e-mail address so I figure she saw the copy of the
fax I posted to a half dozen newsgroups as well as here and got my e-mail
address....... I'll keep the group posted as to the outcome....
> After that, I urge those of us that care enough to respond to that address
>and relate this issue to them while detailing that we, as a group, are more
>than a single voice in the wilderness. I, for one, enjoy telling companies
>where to stick their blurfl, so this wouldn't bother me in the least. I
>also suggest that whosoever believeth in me would nearly have everlasting
>tool life if more of this kind of thing was reported instead of "dealing
>with it."
Now this is what we need more of........ We have to stand up to big companies
that take our money and run........ If this girl doesn't end up doing anything
about this, I'll post her e-mail address and you can all have your say with her.
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Proofread carefully to be sure you didn't any words out.....
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Devilbiss air compressor warning !!!!
Joe sez:
>If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck....
It's a Ridgid?
>Well folks, here's proof! I've always suspected that big companies would
>be foolish not to be 'out there' listening and although not responding to
>these types of forums directly, they are listening nevertheless.
I've always suspected this too Joe. Ever so often it manifests itself
with problems like Brian's but for the most part I think a majority of
companies remain clueless. Ever been to a Web page without an e-mail
link?
>What I don't understand is their reasoning for not making their presence known to
>the others. You know, something like, "Hi, I'm Zippy, from Sears, and want
>you to be aware that Crapsman isn't changing a damn thing....but I'm here
>to help."
This falls under the same thinking as the boss approaching you and
saying "what can I do to make you happier". Believe me, he (and they)
don't want to hear the response. Your mileage may vary but I think
some companies don't want the liabilities associated with "coming
clean". The ones I like are the Marketing 101 rejects who manage to
get into an online flame war with disgruntled customers. On the other
hand a good company makes itself available to customers. Case in
point is Suffolk Machinery Corp. or Lee Valley. These guys are all
over rec.ww and the woodworkers fall all over themselves gushing about
them. Hmmm? Good company, makes itself available, people like them?
Bad company, doesn't help when called and hangs up on customer? I
think I see a pattern developing here.
Along the same lines NBC Nightly News reported last night that people
now buy based on price and customer satisfaction isn't as important as
it used to be. They interviewed a business school professor who
confirmed that the companies know this. In Keith's World (K.W.�) this
is true when it comes to buying burgers but Keith suffers with a
gnawing delusion that we woodworkers are tired of plunking down our
hard earned dough for crappy service and products. I did find it
interesting that some of the footage was shot at a Home Depot. Does
anyone dispute that Home Depot makes very little of it's money from
knowledgeable shoppers?
Now with all that said I think it's interesting to note that the
American Society of Quality Control (ASQC) reports the following
breakdown for why business' lose customers.
1% Die
3% Move away
5% Influenced by friends
9% Lured away by competition
14% Dissatisfied with product
68% (yes, 68%) Turned away by an attitude of indifference on the part
of a company employee.
>I don't find it bizarre in the least that you copied us with a fax
>yesterday and RX'd an indirect Email response from them today. Now, if
>only we could do something about Zippy....
I think it's Skippy down at the Sears store? The guy over behind the
register with digitus excavatus proboskis? Oh, that's his best bud
Scooter. After work they're chillin'.
Keith Bohn
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 8:54 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Devilbiss air compressor warning !!!!
At 02:05 PM 10/22/98 GMT, you wrote:
>I've always suspected this too Joe. Ever so often it manifests itself
>with problems like Brian's but for the most part I think a majority of
>companies remain clueless. Ever been to a Web page without an e-mail
>link?
>SNIP
>This falls under the same thinking as the boss approaching you and
>saying "what can I do to make you happier". Believe me, he (and they)
>don't want to hear the response. Your mileage may vary but I think
>some companies don't want the liabilities associated with "coming
>clean". The ones I like are the Marketing 101 rejects who manage to
>get into an online flame war with disgruntled customers.
>
>Along the same lines NBC Nightly News reported last night that people
>now buy based on price and customer satisfaction isn't as important as
>it used to be. They interviewed a business school professor who
>confirmed that the companies know this.
>SNIP
As a former (3 long years ago) Quality and Customer Service director (title
more impressive than pay) for a major Fortune 500 company, let me say that
business school studies are not always a reliable source of customer
attitudes. The ivory towerists often either ask the wrong questions
and/or ask them wrongly (sic). A lot of the ASQC's results come from other
sources like real world companies who have a need for accurate info rather
than a need to publish. The only true rating of customer satisfaction is a
rise or fall in purchases! Getting off that soapbox....
On to another soapbox...
Reliable studies show that if you are not going to respond positively to
asked for customer suggestions/wishes/desires, you are a LOT (on a
magnitude of 2-3x) better off not asking. Once asked, customer
expectations rise; if not asked their expectations remain static. Employee
(consiedered customers for satisfaction measure) satisfaction is especially
reactive. Off that soapbox.......
Joe's wanting us to write to Devilibiss is an excellent example of the Q&CR
studies that show customers pass along tales of dissatisfaction 5 to 6
times more frequently than they pass along positive encounters. If one
were to sample the archives of this group or rec.ww, I'd guess that the
order is more like 10 to 1. Now, there is a great study to be for a
business student.... Off that soapbox......
Duke, you are right on when you say "a majority of
companies remain clueless." In the Q&CR world, this attribute is
attributed to (in private Q&CR to Q&CR sessions) directly to the very top
layers of management.
It's an unusual senior executive who will buy into anything but what s/he
essentially believes to be true. This "I KNOW what they (customers,
employees, anything that moves) want and need" attitude may well be a
condition of the personal makeup that allows/enables someone to attain (or
want to attain) that level of authority. That attitude is compounded by
having an executive's income tied closely to the company's QUARTERLY stock
price and the stock's price being tied more closely to quarterly earnings
than long term company growth.
The change in looking at a company's quarterly status, rather than long
term, is a result of:
1. The damn 80s when any fool could make double digit percentage growth --
and the silly expectation that that growth rate would/should continue.
2. Rise in importance of mutual funds that advertise off of annual earnings
3. Computerized buying and selling mechanisms and decsion-making that
respond immediately to VERY short term changes.
It takes a very wise and secure senior executive and and even wiser
Executive Board to exchange increased costs of customer service for long
term growth. There were some but not many and there are fewer left.
Aren't you glad you asked..........
By the way, I am old but I don't remember any soapboxes one could stand
on. Fruit and veggie wood crates yes, but soap boxes.... Anyone know why
we say soapbox and not apple crate?
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 7:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dewalt Drill Problem
I've have a Dewalt Drill model DW945 versa clutch 3/8" cordless (12v) for
4-5 yrs now and it is starting to lose power. I rechaarged the batteries
and drve a few screw and its dead. The charger does not show a defective
battery pack and the batteries will recharge and drive a few more screw
and dead again. What do you think may be wrong? The batteries - I have
two and they both are doing the same thing.
Well, any help would be great.
Thanks Ken Kansco
PS - Does anyone have a good source for quality shaper cutters at the
lower price range?
Kenneth C. Kansco
Horticultural Associates of Rochester, Inc.
716-374-8935 Fax 716-374-9398
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 3:37 PM
To: Moose and Betty; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: DeWalt's nation wide motorcycle raffle...inane musings
I sold my last motorcycle so I could buy a jointer. Then I sold a shortwave
radio so I could buy a bandsaw. All of my old hobbies are gradually being
replaced by woodworking.
I still have my astronomy equipment (Meade LX-200 10").
Daniel
At 04:07 PM 9/21/98 -0600, Moose and Betty wrote:
>I make it a daily routine to go to all the places in town
>that sell DeWalt tools to fill out entry slips for the
>latest DeWalt raffle.
>
>What surprises me is that the Grand Prize is a MOTORCYCLE+ACEAIQ-
>
>Does this seem strange to anyone besides me?
>
>Don't get me wrong, I would love to win a new motorcycle low
>rider in DeWalt's colors and logos. On the other hand, I
>would rather win a two car garage full of new DeWalt tools.
>
>It seems to me that DeWalt should offer prizes that would be
>more attractive to the population that keeps them in
>business.
>
>What follows is a series of rhetorical thoughts that come to
>mind (rhetorical in this case means no answers required).
>
>I wonder how many woodworkers are also motorcyclists. I
>wonder how many motorcyclists are also woodworkers. I think
>there is a distinct difference between the two that depends
>on emphasis.
>
>I wonder how many woodworkers who are not motorcyclists
>would like to be so. (I fit in this category.) I wonder how
>many motorcyclists who are not woodworkers would like to be
>so.
>
>Would barefoot woodworkers also be inclined to be barefoot
>motorcyclists?
>
>Will the winner of this motorcycle give up woodworking and
>become a Hell's Angel?
>
>Is DeWalt entering the motorcycle manufacturing business?
>
>Does DeWalt realize that the winner of this motorcycle may
>never again have time to do woodworking, and thereby never
>again buy a DeWalt tool?
>
>What woodworking projects does a woodworker/motorcyclist
>prefer?
>
>How much rough lumber can a motorcyclist/woodworker carry
>from the mill to his shop? ......or S4S lumber from the yard
>to a job site?
>
>How does a motorcyclist/woodworker deliver a kitchen full of
>cabinets or a piece of fine furniture to the customer?
>
>It occurs to me that the winner of this motorcycle will not
>have much time for riding around on it. He will spend too
>much time explaining how he (or she) got it, and why it has
>the tool manufacturer's logos all over it.
>
>DeWalt yellow seems to be the wrong color for a motorcycle.
>Delta blue, Delta white, Jet Blue, the new Jet white,
>Craftsman red and black, and even Grizzly green would be
>better colors for a motorcycle.
>
>10Q,
>
>Moose.........watching the onset of Fall in Kimberly, Idaho.
>Hunting season has started......cuts into the woodworking
>time a bit.
>
>
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 3:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: DeWalt's nation wide motorcycle raffle...inane musings
I make it a daily routine to go to all the places in town
that sell DeWalt tools to fill out entry slips for the
latest DeWalt raffle.
What surprises me is that the Grand Prize is a MOTORCYCLE!!
Does this seem strange to anyone besides me?
Don't get me wrong, I would love to win a new motorcycle low
rider in DeWalt's colors and logos. On the other hand, I
would rather win a two car garage full of new DeWalt tools.
It seems to me that DeWalt should offer prizes that would be
more attractive to the population that keeps them in
business.
What follows is a series of rhetorical thoughts that come to
mind (rhetorical in this case means no answers required).
I wonder how many woodworkers are also motorcyclists. I
wonder how many motorcyclists are also woodworkers. I think
there is a distinct difference between the two that depends
on emphasis.
I wonder how many woodworkers who are not motorcyclists
would like to be so. (I fit in this category.) I wonder how
many motorcyclists who are not woodworkers would like to be
so.
Would barefoot woodworkers also be inclined to be barefoot
motorcyclists?
Will the winner of this motorcycle give up woodworking and
become a Hell's Angel?
Is DeWalt entering the motorcycle manufacturing business?
Does DeWalt realize that the winner of this motorcycle may
never again have time to do woodworking, and thereby never
again buy a DeWalt tool?
What woodworking projects does a woodworker/motorcyclist
prefer?
How much rough lumber can a motorcyclist/woodworker carry
from the mill to his shop? ......or S4S lumber from the yard
to a job site?
How does a motorcyclist/woodworker deliver a kitchen full of
cabinets or a piece of fine furniture to the customer?
It occurs to me that the winner of this motorcycle will not
have much time for riding around on it. He will spend too
much time explaining how he (or she) got it, and why it has
the tool manufacturer's logos all over it.
DeWalt yellow seems to be the wrong color for a motorcycle.
Delta blue, Delta white, Jet Blue, the new Jet white,
Craftsman red and black, and even Grizzly green would be
better colors for a motorcycle.
10Q,
Moose.........watching the onset of Fall in Kimberly, Idaho.
Hunting season has started......cuts into the woodworking
time a bit.
From: Jim & Deb Warman (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Diemensional Question
Whatever you do, don't forget to allow for the saw kerf - with pieces the
size you are describing tjis could add up. You may want to try WinSheet to
help out with this one. I can't remember where I found a copy - I THINK it
was "Woodworking and hiding in the garage". I know I've got it bookmarked
but if you ever saw my bookmark file.........'nuff sed.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hartmann <billh at tfs.net>
To: Brian Dunlap <gramps at ti.com>; woodworking at theoak.com
<woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Diemensional Question
>Brian
>
>If you go to TheOak either they have or have links to layoff software
>that will do this. I have not used any so I dont' know how well it
>works.
>
>You can do manually. Draw, to scale, a 4 & 8 sheet. You might also
>mark it for 2*4 and 4*4 partial sheets. Then start in one corner and
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <kayak at one.net> [kayak at one.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Diemensional Question
Brian and all,
I think I originally found this software by way of the spiffy new
woodworkers directory. Sheet Layout, v6.6. It lets you choose whether
or not to consider grain direction, among other things.
It can be found at http://www.sheetlayout.com/
Zane Harris
Brian Dunlap wrote:
>
> I'm working on a project and the plans call for several different
> pieces cuts out of plywood. Like 7" x 13" and 6" x 8 5/8". What is the
> best way to determine the total amount of plywood required for the
> project ? Thanks in advance !
>
> Brian
From: Brian Dunlap (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [gramps at ti.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Diemensional Question
Importance: High
I'm working on a project and the plans call for several different
pieces cuts out of plywood. Like 7" x 13" and 6" x 8 5/8". What is the
best way to determine the total amount of plywood required for the
project ? Thanks in advance !
Brian
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:16 AM
To: Woodworking, Post
Subject: Dining table for the kitchen
I know there are the URL dukes on the list and I am going to build a white
oak table for the kitchen eating area. I need to look at some designs and
have one of them approved by SWMBO.
What I am looking for is some pictures, not plans, I can do that. Something,
that would show the shape, and general appearance. I am looking for a table
of 3' x 4.5', rather simple shape, maybe a drawer or two under the top for
storage. I have all the articles on tables in the ww mags, but would like
more variety before I start cutting.
Thanks for help,
Zdenek
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 3:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: CDWeinke at aol.com
Subject: Discounted books site
Here's the corrected url for this great bookstore. www.hamiltonbook.com
Note: book is singular, but man oh man, do they have the books, a halfway
decent search engine and postage is only $3 per order!! And after your first
order, they send a newsprint catalog periodically. Rosie
> > One source, however, for good discounted new books is
www.hamiltonbooks.com.
> I get "Unknown Host"....for that address.
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:32 PM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; CDWeinke at aol.com
Subject: Re: Discounted books site
Make that http://www.hamiltonbook.com/ and it will work fine.
Mack Neff
Rosiedoe at aol.com wrote:
> Here's the corrected url for this great bookstore. www.hamiltonbook.com
> Note: book is singular, but man oh man, do they have the books, a halfway
> decent search engine and postage is only $3 per order!! And after your first
> order, they send a newsprint catalog periodically. Rosie
>
> > > One source, however, for good discounted new books is
> www.hamiltonbooks.com.
>
> > I get "Unknown Host"....for that address.
From: Rick Cansler [rcans2 at kalama.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:01 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Divided glass panel cabinet doors
I am planning on making some glass panel doors for kitchen cabinets. I
have a CMT ogee style and rail set of router bits and am not sure how
they could be used to make the glass panel doors. Is it best to make a
solid glass panel with grids covering the panel ? Can I use 3/4" lumber
for the cabinet door frame?
From: jhebert [jhebert at sol.racsa.co.cr]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 4:20 AM
To: rcans2 at kalama.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Divided glass panel cabinet doors
Rick Cansler wrote:
> I am planning on making some glass panel doors for kitchen cabinets. I
> have a CMT ogee style and rail set of router bits and am not sure how
> they could be used to make the glass panel doors.
Rick what I do is to make the rails an styles as normal and cut the inside
of the wood that normally sandwiches the raised panel and use it to hold the
glass in the door
> Is it best to make a solid glass panel with grids covering the panel ?
You can use one or more as you wish
> Can I use 3/4" lumber for the cabinet door frame?
Try a trial on your cutters and see if you like it.
Jean in Down Town Tambor
Glad that MITCH is gone rained for 14 days and
rained 1meter 25 centimiters (50 inches)
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 6:09 PM
To: frederik at gorge.net
Cc: R.J. Spomer; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Do I buy new or used?
Yes to all of Fred's above, but in addition don't forget a static phase
converter. I have a used 5HP, 3 phase PM66 on which I installed a static phase
converter about seven years ago. Neither the PM66 or the phase converter has
missed a lick. At the time the converter cost $179+ some change. I did lose
about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 of the five horses (according to what I've read), but the
saw still hauls the mail and mows the lawn just fine.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Mommapagan at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: dovetail jig
Does anyone have an opinion on the dovetail jig in this month's shopnotes?
Vol.8, Issue 43. Is it going to work as pretty as it looks? Barbara,
mommapagan at aol.com.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:00 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Gary,
This past summer I spent a lot of time making decorative wooden boxes (guess
what everyone on my list is getting for Xmas) with through dovetails on the
corners. I used to spend a lot of time agonizing over dovetail sizes, etc.
until I read an old FWW article about Klaus' dovetail method.
I don't know how they compare for fit and finish but with each passing box
my speed goes up, fit gets better and fiddle time is almost none existant
anymore. I like to do my tail boards first (personal preference with no
factual basis as to why). Lay pins and tails out using the width of the
chisels that you have as a general guideline being sure to make those at the
parting line 1/8" oversize for when you cut the top from the bottom.
When I'm in a good mood, I can chop all four corners of a box in less than
an evening........and groove to a good CD while I'm doing it 8^).
Woodworking has become a popular pasttime in our town, but most of what
you'll see is butt joints and biscuits........but they are made with very
expensive toys. Glue is applied to hold the parts together until you can
give it three or four pounds of air driven brads and everyone wants enough
power (oops......powuh tools) to make his plaidness drool 8^).
Sorry for the rant, there. Happy chooping.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Peter Mance [pm at infra.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:59 PM
To: 'Donald Weisman'
Cc: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: RE: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Would someone please humour a part time amateur and outline the easiest way to cut dovetails by hand? I'm almost entirely self taught so I always wind up wondering if there isn't an easier/better way of doing things.
I have been cutting pins with a tenon and hand fret, transferring markings to tail piece (both sides) then repeating the exercise. With a little care and practice this seems to produce near perfect joints in no time.
Is this The Way?
Regards
Peter Mance
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:38 PM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
This morning I watched a video put out by Time-Life with Franz doing his
hand made dovetail thing. I'm gonna try it. It's almost as fast as using a
jig. He claims it's faster. The cool thing about his method is that it
doesn't make any difference if all the dovetails are exactly the same. You
just have to match the pins and tails. He shows through dovetails. I would
assume that he does half blind in much the same way. I'll have to think
about that. Anyway, my impression was that anyone could do a decent job
with hand cut dovetails if you lay things out right to start.
Wish me well. I'm gonna try it. My old Crapsman jig wants to put ME in a
box.
Gary Cavener
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:09 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Gary,
Thats what some of us have been saying and trying to tell this list for
a long time. Most of the time, out of ignorance, it gets totally ignored
and passed over in favor of popular machine tools. There's no point in
dwelling further on that.
Anyone who has taken the time to learn how to cut dovetails by hand,
already knew what you saw this morning. If the same time were taken to
learn how to cut dovetails by hand as it takes to learn how to use a
jig, this entire list would be experts (more or less).
Also, there is hardly anyone who can cut dovetails by hand, that
couldn't complete a drawer before most people can get the jig set up and
adjusted. Franzs' claim "as faster" was not a idle statement. The same
thing is true with a lot of other woodworking "things".
I'm glad you saw the Video. It should make you a better woodworker if
you practice what you saw. At the very least, it now gives you a choice.
Lest I forget, if someone had a "bunch" of dovetails to cut, then a
machine tool with jig would be the way to go.
I'm ashamed to admit, but it's been so long since I cut any myself, it
would be like starting over.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:05 AM
To: Peter Mance
Cc: 'Donald Weisman'; 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: Re: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
I prefer a chisel and back saw but it makes no difference.You say"it
produces near perfect joints in no time" so I would say that is the way
to go for you.
Mike Bridges
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 10:26 AM
To: Pianoman
Cc: Gary L. Yarrow; pm at infra.com.au; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Pianoman wrote:
>
> One question: How can I tell a good fret/coping saw from a bad one?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David Dahl
> Appleton WI
For me David, a good one would be one that the blades wouldn't have to
be special ordered and are easily changed with a minimum of fuss. A
reasonable availability of blade choices. When tightened up, it stays
put. And one that the handle doesn't fall off during use.
I follow the kerf previously made by the back saw or whichever saw I
use, with the thinner coping saw blade. Continue cutting to the line and
twist the flexible coping saw blade while sawing to make a near 90� to
cut out the waste, and clean up as you do with a chisel.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:45 AM
To: woodworking
Subject: dovetail jigs
To those who want to change from the identically sized/spaced
dovetail jigs, there's hope. I have found two sources of shop
made dovetail jigs. Coincidentally, both are of the through
dovetail flavor, and double coincidence, both are offerings by the
Woodsmith family of publications.
Woodsmith magazine had plans for a fixture that worked on the BS
and cut variably sized/spaced pins and tails. Minor bench work
involved.
The current issue of ShopNotes #43, has the closest Leigh
knock-off I've seen to date. While it can do variable SPACED
work, you have to make the adjustable `fingers' a different size
for different SIZED pin/tails. I have the issue and am in the
process of mind-twisting it, to incorporate split fingers.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:01 AM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net; woodworking
Subject: Re: dovetail jigs
On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:44:31 -0800, Roger Hubner wrote:
>To those who want to change from the identically sized/spaced
>dovetail jigs, there's hope. I have found two sources of shop
>made dovetail jigs. Coincidentally, both are of the through
>dovetail flavor, and double coincidence, both are offerings by the
>Woodsmith family of publications.
>
>Woodsmith magazine had plans for a fixture that worked on the BS
>and cut variably sized/spaced pins and tails. Minor bench work
>involved.
I am not familar with this. Did you know the issue?
Or maybe you are confusing this with the Mark Dunginske. It was
orginally in Fine Woodworking (I think, maybe AWW). It was also
writen up in his books. It uses the TS for cutting the profiles and
the BS for finishing them off.
>The current issue of ShopNotes #43, has the closest Leigh
>knock-off I've seen to date. While it can do variable SPACED
>work, you have to make the adjustable `fingers' a different size
>for different SIZED pin/tails. I have the issue and am in the
>process of mind-twisting it, to incorporate split fingers.
Actually it is almost identical to Katie Jig. For those who have seen
them the Katie/Woodsmith jigs are very similar to the Keller jig,
except that the fingers that adjustable.
>--
>Roger
>Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
>Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Frank Keetley [fkeetley at wwdc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 4:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: dovetail joints.
Gentlemen,
Could you please guide an old amatuer?? I would like to purchase one
of those finger gadgets that facilitate the use of a router to make
Dovetail joints. Would someone please guide me as to the most useful
gadget to buy. I am mainly interested in drawers and linen chests.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Frank.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 5:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: dovetail joints.
>Gentlemen,
And ladies?
>Could you please guide an old amatuer?? I would like to purchase one
>of those finger gadgets that facilitate the use of a router to make
>Dovetail joints. Would someone please guide me as to the most useful
>gadget to buy. I am mainly interested in drawers and linen chests.
>Thanking you in anticipation.
I'll weigh in with what I know which isn't much. It's more a list of
what's available and my perception. Your mileage may vary.
I have never seen a good review of the Sears type jig. Seems there's
always problems with alignment. I've only used it once and abandoned
it out of frustration.
http://shop.sears.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/;execmacro/dispProdsSCS.d2w/report?prrfnbr=9406&prmenbr=6970
Woodstock International makes a similar jig to the Sears. I have no
idea if it's better or worse.
http://www.woodstockinternational.com/
The Incra and Jointech are really precision fence systems with a twist
that they are set up to do different joints. Up side is they do more
than one thing. I'm not sure how difficult it is to perform the
joinery functions but it would be nice to have the precision these
systems offer for other work.
http://www.incra.com/
http://www.jointech.com/
The Leigh jig looks to be very cool and it offers infinite tail and
pin width spacing but I have heard that set up is/can be a draw back.
It does have the advantage of doing more than dovetails.
http://highland-hardware.com/catalog/leigh.html
There is the Porter Cable Omnijig which looks pretty fool proof but
only does half-blind dovetails.
http://www.toolcribofthenorth.com/Porter%20Cable/7116.html
The Keller is pretty no nonsense. All that's required is fixing the
template to a block of wood and set the router bits. It's real hard
to screw up. It also has the advantage of making dovetails on larger
panels. Something the Leigh/Sears/Porter Cable can't do.
Keller & Co.
1327 I Street
Petaluma, CA 94952
(707) 763-9336
(800) 995-2456
Stots makes a jig ala Keller that allows you to make your own
templates. If their advert is to be believed it looks to be very
inexpensive for what it delivers.
http://www.stots.com/dovetail.html
You can do dovetails with your tablesaw. Mark Duginske's book
"Mastering Woodworking Machinery" shows this technique. Upside is you
probably have a saw and it cost nearly nothing to get started. Down
side is the stock is held on end over the blade and this limits you to
a board around two foot. Still, it's cheap. By the way, the book is
a must have for any woodworker.
Mark Duginske
1-888-327-7725
Woodsmith has a kit to make the Sears type jig. Again, the down side
is it's only good for half-blinds.
http://www.commerce.dsmnet.com/cgi-bin/showcat/catalog/Augusthome/Woodsmithshop/Dovetail%20Jigs/index.html?id=136705
So there you have. You're really no better off now than you where
before. My final advice is to look at what you want to do, weigh this
against what you think might evolve, take price into consideration and
balance it all with ease of delivery. If it was me I'd look hard at
the Keller. On the other hand you could get started using Duginske's
jig for instant gratification and move on from there but boy wouldn't
one of those precision fences be nice?
There is always the alternative of hand cutting. It's been said that
Frank Klausz can blow through a set of dovetails while the rest of us
are making our morning coffee. sigh...
Keith Bohn
So little time, so many tools, so little voltage...
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 6:45 AM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: dovetail joints.
Good post Keith and I will add what I know from first hand experience.
I have used the Porter Cable jig and it works fine but for half blind
dovetails with 1/2" pins and tails the $59.95 generic jig does the same.
The difference being that you can buy different templates for the PC at
great costs.
I had one of the $59.95 jigs that I used exclusivly for kitchen drawers
for years.They cut both sides at once.
What I use now is the 24" Leigh D4.It takes awhile to set up THE FIRST
TIME.There is an excellent manual and even a video for it.Once you get
the hang of it it is very simple and quick and will cut different sized
and spaced joints.I join many cases together with it which is possible
with the 24" capacity.
IMHO it is the best jig at any price although there are alot of good
ones out there.
For an entry level jig I would buy the $59.95 generic jig.You would see
how they work and wouldn't be out much when you upgraded if that time
ever comes.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
Duke of URLs wrote:
>
> >Gentlemen,
>
> And ladies?
>
> >Could you please guide an old amatuer?? I would like to purchase one
> >of those finger gadgets that facilitate the use of a router to make
> >Dovetail joints. Would someone please guide me as to the most useful
> >gadget to buy. I am mainly interested in drawers and linen chests.
> >Thanking you in anticipation.
>
> I'll weigh in with what I know which isn't much. It's more a list of
> what's available and my perception. Your mileage may vary.
>
> I have never seen a good review of the Sears type jig. Seems there's
> always problems with alignment. I've only used it once and abandoned
> it out of frustration.
>
> http://shop.sears.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/;execmacro/dispProdsSCS.d2w/report?prrfnbr=9406&prmenbr=6970
>
> Woodstock International makes a similar jig to the Sears. I have no
> idea if it's better or worse.
>
> http://www.woodstockinternational.com/
>
> The Incra and Jointech are really precision fence systems with a twist
> that they are set up to do different joints. Up side is they do more
> than one thing. I'm not sure how difficult it is to perform the
> joinery functions but it would be nice to have the precision these
> systems offer for other work.
>
> http://www.incra.com/
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> The Leigh jig looks to be very cool and it offers infinite tail and
> pin width spacing but I have heard that set up is/can be a draw back.
> It does have the advantage of doing more than dovetails.
>
> http://highland-hardware.com/catalog/leigh.html
>
> There is the Porter Cable Omnijig which looks pretty fool proof but
> only does half-blind dovetails.
>
> http://www.toolcribofthenorth.com/Porter%20Cable/7116.html
>
> The Keller is pretty no nonsense. All that's required is fixing the
> template to a block of wood and set the router bits. It's real hard
> to screw up. It also has the advantage of making dovetails on larger
> panels. Something the Leigh/Sears/Porter Cable can't do.
>
> Keller & Co.
> 1327 I Street
> Petaluma, CA 94952
> (707) 763-9336
> (800) 995-2456
>
> Stots makes a jig ala Keller that allows you to make your own
> templates. If their advert is to be believed it looks to be very
> inexpensive for what it delivers.
>
> http://www.stots.com/dovetail.html
>
> You can do dovetails with your tablesaw. Mark Duginske's book
> "Mastering Woodworking Machinery" shows this technique. Upside is you
> probably have a saw and it cost nearly nothing to get started. Down
> side is the stock is held on end over the blade and this limits you to
> a board around two foot. Still, it's cheap. By the way, the book is
> a must have for any woodworker.
>
> Mark Duginske
> 1-888-327-7725
>
> Woodsmith has a kit to make the Sears type jig. Again, the down side
> is it's only good for half-blinds.
>
> http://www.commerce.dsmnet.com/cgi-bin/showcat/catalog/Augusthome/Woodsmithshop/Dovetail%20Jigs/index.html?id=136705
>
> So there you have. You're really no better off now than you where
> before. My final advice is to look at what you want to do, weigh this
> against what you think might evolve, take price into consideration and
> balance it all with ease of delivery. If it was me I'd look hard at
> the Keller. On the other hand you could get started using Duginske's
> jig for instant gratification and move on from there but boy wouldn't
> one of those precision fences be nice?
>
> There is always the alternative of hand cutting. It's been said that
> Frank Klausz can blow through a set of dovetails while the rest of us
> are making our morning coffee. sigh...
>
> Keith Bohn
> So little time, so many tools, so little voltage...
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 6:08 AM
To: fkeetley at wwdc.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: dovetail joints.
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:19:38 -0400 Frank Keetley <fkeetley at wwdc.com>
writes:
-----------------------------------clipped---------------------------
>Dovetail joints. Would someone please guide me as to the most useful
>gadget to buy. I am mainly interested in drawers and linen chests.
>Thanking you in anticipation.
>Frank.
-----------
I use the Keller. It is very simple to set up and I can be through with
the four edges of a sea chest in the time it would take to set up the
more complicated jigs. It is for through dovetails only, however, and
for drawer fronts you must affix a face board on the "box" you just built
for the drawer. The Keller is so fast and easy, though, that you can do
the Shaker practice of dovetailing the back end of the drawer on too, in
about the same time it would take to make a butt joint or mitered joint
there and it is much stronger and looks better (for those who want to
show off their clean drawers!!).
Glen, in Minneapolis
"The difference between perseverance and obstinacy is that one comes from
a
strong will, and the other from a strong won't". -Henry Ward Beecher
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 10:22 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: dovetail joints.
All
I have the Leigh and with the 24 inch capacity, I dovetail most of my caresses for large pieces together. Rarely is a piece of furniture deeper than 24 inches. Most of the time I use the blind dovetail when joining since the through would be visible. Drawers I through dovetail and blind dovetail. Use a lot of sliding dovetails. The Leigh and other more expensive jig do a wide variety of tasks including box joints, through and blind mortise and tendon and others. Many less expensive jig as single purpose.
One other thought, there is a number of ways to do dovetails. Through dovetails are easily made with a band saw, table saw, router table, with simple shop made jigs. If I were looking at only through dovetails, I would not consider buying a jig, but cobble up a jig for my band saw or table saw.
Ken Martin
----------
From: Mike Bridges[SMTP:mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 9:45 AM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: dovetail joints.
Good post Keith and I will add what I know from first hand experience.
I have used the Porter Cable jig and it works fine but for half blind
dovetails with 1/2" pins and tails the $59.95 generic jig does the same.
The difference being that you can buy different templates for the PC at
great costs.
I had one of the $59.95 jigs that I used exclusivly for kitchen drawers
for years.They cut both sides at once.
What I use now is the 24" Leigh D4.It takes awhile to set up THE FIRST
TIME.There is an excellent manual and even a video for it.Once you get
the hang of it it is very simple and quick and will cut different sized
and spaced joints.I join many cases together with it which is possible
with the 24" capacity.
IMHO it is the best jig at any price although there are alot of good
ones out there.
For an entry level jig I would buy the $59.95 generic jig.You would see
how they work and wouldn't be out much when you upgraded if that time
ever comes.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
Duke of URLs wrote:
>
> >Gentlemen,
>
> And ladies?
>
> >Could you please guide an old amatuer?? I would like to purchase one
> >of those finger gadgets that facilitate the use of a router to make
> >Dovetail joints. Would someone please guide me as to the most useful
> >gadget to buy. I am mainly interested in drawers and linen chests.
> >Thanking you in anticipation.
>
> I'll weigh in with what I know which isn't much. It's more a list of
> what's available and my perception. Your mileage may vary.
>
> I have never seen a good review of the Sears type jig. Seems there's
> always problems with alignment. I've only used it once and abandoned
> it out of frustration.
>
> http://shop.sears.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/;execmacro/dispProdsSCS.d2w/report?prrfnbr=9406&prmenbr=6970
>
> Woodstock International makes a similar jig to the Sears. I have no
> idea if it's better or worse.
>
> http://www.woodstockinternational.com/
>
> The Incra and Jointech are really precision fence systems with a twist
> that they are set up to do different joints. Up side is they do more
> than one thing. I'm not sure how difficult it is to perform the
> joinery functions but it would be nice to have the precision these
> systems offer for other work.
>
> http://www.incra.com/
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> The Leigh jig looks to be very cool and it offers infinite tail and
> pin width spacing but I have heard that set up is/can be a draw back.
> It does have the advantage of doing more than dovetails.
>
> http://highland-hardware.com/catalog/leigh.html
>
> There is the Porter Cable Omnijig which looks pretty fool proof but
> only does half-blind dovetails.
>
> http://www.toolcribofthenorth.com/Porter%20Cable/7116.html
>
> The Keller is pretty no nonsense. All that's required is fixing the
> template to a block of wood and set the router bits. It's real hard
> to screw up. It also has the advantage of making dovetails on larger
> panels. Something the Leigh/Sears/Porter Cable can't do.
>
> Keller & Co.
> 1327 I Street
> Petaluma, CA 94952
> (707) 763-9336
> (800) 995-2456
>
> Stots makes a jig ala Keller that allows you to make your own
> templates. If their advert is to be believed it looks to be very
> inexpensive for what it delivers.
>
> http://www.stots.com/dovetail.html
>
> You can do dovetails with your tablesaw. Mark Duginske's book
> "Mastering Woodworking Machinery" shows this technique. Upside is you
> probably have a saw and it cost nearly nothing to get started. Down
> side is the stock is held on end over the blade and this limits you to
> a board around two foot. Still, it's cheap. By the way, the book is
> a must have for any woodworker.
>
> Mark Duginske
> 1-888-327-7725
>
> Woodsmith has a kit to make the Sears type jig. Again, the down side
> is it's only good for half-blinds.
>
> http://www.commerce.dsmnet.com/cgi-bin/showcat/catalog/Augusthome/Woodsmithshop/Dovetail%20Jigs/index.html?id=136705
>
> So there you have. You're really no better off now than you where
> before. My final advice is to look at what you want to do, weigh this
> against what you think might evolve, take price into consideration and
> balance it all with ease of delivery. If it was me I'd look hard at
> the Keller. On the other hand you could get started using Duginske's
> jig for instant gratification and move on from there but boy wouldn't
> one of those precision fences be nice?
>
> There is always the alternative of hand cutting. It's been said that
> Frank Klausz can blow through a set of dovetails while the rest of us
> are making our morning coffee. sigh...
>
> Keith Bohn
> So little time, so many tools, so little voltage...
From: David Cabrera [dcabrera at iamerica.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 10:02 AM
To: fkeetley at wwdc.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: dovetail joints.
I have the Leigh Jig, and it is all it claims and more, that is and more money. Everything on that setup is expensive. For me it is worth it. I do alot of custom work, and the fexibilty is what I needed. Recently, I was at a woodworking show and saw the Router Guy's setup, with the Plastic Fences. If I just needed to make a few boxes, their system and technique is the way to go. With that system a quick setup, consisting of a small table jig, a brass bar, and a spacer block and your good to go. I was impressed with the simplicity.
David Cabrera
Baton Rouge, La.
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 3:20 PM
To: dldahl at att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dovetail Templates
David:
Hope that you feel better. The cost of many of these items seem to
be high due to a number of factors. Most people understand that costs
come down when productions goes up. For many years I was involved in
procurement activities that always tried to consider where the production
cost break points were. There can be a tremendous difference in unit
cost based on production quantity. There is valid reasons for this. As
we also know, competition also drives cost. Not a lot of places in town,
selling Porter Cable Dovetail jigs. I live in a metropolitan area and
the nearest dealer that sells that jig is 45 miles away. They sell very
few of them per year. Yet there is five places within 15 minutes drive
to buy Marples chisels.
I am sure with your last example you are not telling us that
musicians should not be paid. Bottom line is this. When you buy a
specialized tool, that realitively low quantities are sold each year,
you are going to pay what appears a high price. I for one am glad to pay
it, because the alternative is not being able to buy them at all.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:47:30 -0500 "Pianoman" <dldahl at att.net> writes:
>Folks:
>Need to gripe, figured this was the best forum for it. I bought a
>PorterCable dovetail jig a few months back, never had a chance to use
>it
>yet, but thought a template for some finger joints would get used for
>Christmas gifts. So, I sought out proprietors of things woodworking
>tool-ish. Gripe? The cost of those aluminum templates! $40 or more!
>WOW! For
>what? Stamped material. C'mon, fellas (mfgrs), get real. You can't
>tell me
>that the cost of production requires this kind of cost. Retailers, how
>much
>is the markup? Someone is getting far too much for these things. Think
>about
>it, I can get a decent set of Marples chisels for a tad bit more that
>the
>cost of these templates!
>
>OK, end of gripe! There are just some things whose price is wrong.
>Anyone
>bought a music CD lately? Costs of materials/production is about $1,
>how
>much did you pay? Get my point?
>
>David Dahl
>Feeling better in Appleton WI
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 4:02 PM
To: Ray Berry
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dovetail Templates
Ray,
Doug Smith has evaluated this item and posted the evaluation at:
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GazetteArchive/7_17_98smith.html
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Ray Berry wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Has anyone tried one of these dovetail template masters and how does it
> work, looks good at the price but it seems to be a template to make
> templates. Any ideas.
>
> This is their website
>
> http://www.stots.com/dovetail.html
>
> Ray
> By Loch Ness
--
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 5:33 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dovetailing a la Frank Klausz
Hi all
I have now received my Time life deal. The same one I guess you guys had -
a (good) book on cabinetmaking, 101 tips booklet and a video with Jon
Eakes, Frank Klausz and some other guy...
I am impressed by Frank Klausz, though. The way he cuts dovetails is
amazing. I was put off in school by all the usual stuff from doing my own,
but this guy makes it seem easy. I tried on a few bits of scrap and
although they weren't brilliant, with practice I can see that I can really
learn this skill. Unfortunately this bit of the tape is only around ten
minutes and I want more :-)
I found out there is a video called Dovetailing a Drawer by Mr Klausz and I
found it available on Amazon in the States but is not available on Amazon
UK. This is where we come to the disadvantaged by being British bit again.
Although we too have VHS format videos here, they are recorded in a system
called PAL and not NTSC like you giys across the pond.
Because of this, the video is only available in N. America so I can't get
it in spite of the fact - now get this - my video recorder here is dual
standard and will play both NTSC and PAL. I have had videos from the states
before and can watch them OK. I guess there is some marketing or copyright
reason they can't sell it here...
Anyway, my question is - is the video any good, I mean really worth me
trying to get someone over there to buy it and send it to me. Does Frank do
blind dovetails (half-lapped dovetails) in the same easy manner? How does
he do them? Does he do it pins first?
I managed to get a short preview video clip from one website but he seemed
only to be planing...?
Please do tell all....
Ray
Loch Ness
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 6:03 AM
To: Ray Berry
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dovetailing a la Frank Klausz
Ray,
I checked this one out of the public library about 18 months ago, so of course,
I had to return it when I was done with it. I do clearly remember though that
it was a great tape and was one of the things that got me doing dovetails by
hand. He does make them look easy.
As far as pins first in the video, I really would have to rent it again to tell
you, but now that you've mentioned Amazon......hmmm... maybe I should ask for
it for Christmas.
I'll see if I can track it down again for a current run if you don't get a
response from anyone else.
See Ya
Sharon
From: Marc & Linda Tovar [mltovar at ntr.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 10:07 AM
To: Ray Berry
Cc: Sharon Bannister; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dovetailing a la Frank Klausz
Hi Ray
The video is available from
http://www.discount-books.com/videos.htm
Cost is $16, now I don't know if they will ship accross the Pond. Wouldn't hurt
to send them an email.
Marc Tovar
Layton, UT
From: Ron Devlin [rpdevlin at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 5:46 PM
To: mltovar at ntr.net; Ray Berry
Cc: Sharon Bannister; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dovetailing a la Time-Life
Sorry about the late post concerning the dovetail video. Nevertheless,
I came across a book by Time-Life Books that illustrates how to cut
dovetails by hand. It is the best I've seen on the subject so far in
limited search. I think it's worth a look if you are interested. It's
called "Cabinetmaking" (real catchy title, huh?) ISBN 0809499045. Its
available from Amazon, B&N, et. al.
Ron Devlin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 10:51 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dowel Ends......AKA Round Tenon
Try this.
Use a hardwood dowel of the correct size.
Dry fit it first.
Drill the ends of the replacement piece and insert the dowel
where the tenon would be.
Dry fit again.
When you are happy with the fit, glue it up and clamp it.
It would probably be a good idea to flute the dowel its full
length with a sharp knife or a v-shaped carving gouge and be
sure that the dowel does not bottom out. This will allow a
place for excess glue to collect.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 11:02 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Dowell ends
Yo-
Need some help. I have been asked by a influential person to repair some
furniture.
The problem I am running into and that I need advise on is .....
I need to replace a support that is made up of a piece of oak 3/4 x 3/4
x 13".
On each end there is a round tenon about 7/8" long. How can I duplicate
this piece.
I do not have a lathe or access to one. Any ideas appreciated.
Thanks
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 5:29 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Dowell ends
Yo- yourself........Dave, I'd prolly dig down into my pants pocket and dig
out my trusty toad stabber. Then I'd open it carefully so's not to injure
myself on the blade that I try to keep keenly honed. After that I guess I'd
just work off the pencil lines I have already put on the workpiece. When I
got close, I'd trial fit the piece often.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 5:35 PM
To: Dave Tinley
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Dowell ends
I just happened to be placing an order with Jesada when this email showed
up. They advertise a tenon cutter which looks like it does what you need to
do:
http://www.jesada.com/mall/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=tenon_cutters.html&c
art_id=6272680.286
Supposedly these can be used in a drill press.
I've not used one myself, but it might be just what you need.
John
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 8:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: DP "Runout"
Last night down in the shop I was working on a vice system for my new DP - JET
JDP-17 as the fence that comes with the mortise atachment is very flimsy in my
opinion. Any ways this was really the first opportunity I've had to use my DP
since I got it. I chucked a new bit and turned the unit on and noticed that
there was a slight but still noticeable wobble in the bit. Skepticle I tried
another bit this time a longer one so that any wobble would be more
pronounced. Sure enough the same thing. I assembled the unit my self and
very painstakenly cleaned the arbor, chuck, etc. before I put them together.
BTW I did not proceed with my project once I noticed the problem. Any
suggestions? I can't imagine that this is normal for a JET. I'm going to
call them today and see what they suggest. Any comments appreciated.
GoodWwking
Chuck
From: Dee Schuyler [dschuyler at thegrid.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:37 AM
To: TecChef at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: DP "Runout"
Chuck
I have experienced the same problem, with my Grizzly DP. I ended up replacing the
chuck with a Jacobs. and have not had any more problems. I think the quality
control on those chucks leaves a little to be desired.
Dee
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 10:24 PM
To: dschuyler at thegrid.net; TecChef at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: DP "Runout"
At 09:36 AM 1/8/99 -0800, Dee Schuyler wrote:
>Chuck
>I have experienced the same problem, with my Grizzly DP. I ended up
replacing the
>chuck with a Jacobs. and have not had any more problems. I think the quality
>control on those chucks leaves a little to be desired.
>Dee
Dee, out of curiousity (and my penchant for encouraging woodowrkers to not
accept out-of the box garbage) did you call Grizzly and ask them (expect
them) to fix or replace your defuective drill press? If so, what hapenned?
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:51 AM
To: Robert Methelis
Cc: dschuyler at thegrid.net; TecChef at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: DP "Runout"
Robert;
Your question reminds me that I had chucks, replaced by the dealer, on
my new mill/drill machine and my neighbour's five year old DP. He gave
me quality READ "not made in Taiwan" $54. (10 year ago CAN. value)
chucks.
Going back to the direct importer of Taiwan machines will likely get you
another chuck that is equally questionable, if that is the type of thing
they supplied originally.
Just my thoughts.
From: Jim McLaughlin [dearborn at starnetinc.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 9:39 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: DP Measurements
Assuming the statement that 'There are no stipid questions' is
correct, I'm sure this comes close as any.
When a DP is advertised as 10 ", 12" or whatever, where is this
measurement made ?
Between what two points ?
Thanks
Jim
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:07 AM
To: dearborn at starnetinc.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: DP Measurements
Jim,
Ratings on Drill Presses are based on the maximum thickness it can drill
through, if the workpiece is drilled 1/2 way on one side, then flipped over
and drilled through the other side.
For example, a 10" DP could drill 5" deep on one side. Flip the 10" thick
chunk of whatever over, then complete the through hole, drilling another 5"
deep.
Todd Burch, Houston ,Texas.
----------
From: dearborn at starnetinc.com
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: DP Measurements
Date: November 13, 1998 12:30PM
Assuming the statement that 'There are no stipid questions' is
correct, I'm sure this comes close as any.
When a DP is advertised as 10 ", 12" or whatever, where is this
measurement made ?
Between what two points ?
Thanks
Jim
From: Keith Ford [kcford at airmail.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Drill press
Does anybody know anything about the following drill press? I am
considering buying it but don't know anything about this brand/model.
DoAll model D-15200, s/n 349
It is old, but seems well built.
TIA
Keith Ford
Arlington, TX
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley [crowleyk at archmil.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:03 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Drill press
Keith,
DoAll. if it is what I think it is, is an industrial quality
tool.
Kevin
In Deo Spero
Keith Ford wrote:
> Does anybody know anything about the following drill press? I am
> considering buying it but don't know anything about this brand/model.
>
> DoAll model D-15200, s/n 349
>
> It is old, but seems well built.
>
> TIA
>
> Keith Ford
> Arlington, TX
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 8:56 PM
To: Keith Ford
Cc: Woodworking mailing list
Subject: Re: Drill press
Keith Ford wrote:
>
> Does anybody know anything about the following drill press? I am
> considering buying it but don't know anything about this brand/model.
>
> DoAll model D-15200, s/n 349
>
> It is old, but seems well built.
>
> TIA
>
> Keith Ford
> Arlington, TX
DoAll makes (or made) heavy duty industrial machinery and I would think
that anything made by them would be worth having. They are famous for
their bandsaws. Bill
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 3:06 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Drive belts.....random musing
I wonder why the tool manufacturers are still using V-belts.
The automotive industry went to the flat cleated belts a
long time ago.
I wonder if the flat cleated belts would work for stationary
machine tools.
Hmmmmmm........
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:01 PM
To: Moose and Betty; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Drive belts.....random musing
Moose its a good question but take a look at what an old V belt costs
in comparison to a serpentine belt. Here in Canada depending on the
vehicle you can pay up to $50 for the S. belt.That might be reason
enough.
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
----------
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Drive belts.....random musing
I think Ridgid is using them on their line, maybe this will start a trend.
Ridgid calls them "poly-v" belts and they look very much like a modern
automotive accessory drive belt.
John
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:17 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Drive belts.....random musing
Moose,
The belts you refer to are ribbed rather than cleated (though some have
lateral serration's that make it appear to be cleats). While they are more
flexible, we have found that proper belt tension is more critical. Also
pulley alignment is more exacting...we have seen small pieces of mud caught
in a groove cause the belt to walk off the side of the pulley (I would think
that the abundance of sawdust we experience would have a profound impact on
such a system). The belts are, IMHO, more fragile as well. It seems to take
less to cause a catastrophic failure that a regular V belt.
As a sidebar, I would think that a properly adjusted V belt on a tablesaw
would add a safety margin if the belt were to slip when the blade jammed. I
have witnessed many instances where a siezed alternator stalled Chevy 350's
because there is such massive traction in a "properly" adjusted belt.
This style of belt has been used in automotive wheel balancers for many
years but the belt and sheaves are well protected from debris and dirt.
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 7:17 AM
To: Moose and Betty
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Drive belts.....random musing
They sure will but they are a lot more expensive than either V or link
belts, not to mention the cost of the sheaves. Bill
Moose and Betty wrote:
>
> I wonder if the flat cleated belts would work for stationary
> machine tools.
From: joe cumbo [JoeCumbo at compuserve.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 6:07 AM
To: The Oak
Subject: drum accessory kit for the B.O.S.S.
A while back I sent a notice to the oak stating that the Home Depots around
me (Buffalo, NY) were discontinuing the Delta B.O.S.S. (bench top
oclilating spindle sander). I purchased one at the time for $99.00 and the
acc. drum and throat plate kit for $65.00. Guess what.... I stopped by the
other day for something else and I checked out the tool selection and found
the acc. kit reduced to $10.00. Heck, I bought another one for that price.
Anyway, they have 3 left at the Home Depot on Transit by Wherle. The thing
I don't understand is if they are trying to get rid of the acc. kit (they
no longer have the sanders), How come they didn't have a sign up with the
price or at least the boxex marked with the price. I had to ask the clerk
how much and he had to check it in the computer.
And for anyone who missed the tip the sales clerk gave me when I bought the
sander a few months ago, HD codes the tags on the shelf. After the model #
look for a "A", "B", or "C". Fast movers are "A", good movers are "B", and
things that just sit on the shelves are "C". If your lucky, you just might
get some deals on Delta products as HD continues to discontinue Delta in
favor of Rigid.
Joe Cumbo
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 4:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: drum accessory kit for the B.O.S.S.
>Does anyone know if Delta is discontinuing this product or is HD just
>not going to carry it any longer? I was considering buying a B.O.S.S.,
>this turn of events could change my mind.
>Ron Devlin
Known: Home Depot is dropping Delta in favor of Ridgid.
Unknown: The current status of the B.O.S.S. with the decision makers
at Delta.
Speculation: The B.O.S.S. looks to be a winner for Delta. I doubt
it's going to be dropped. An e-mail to Delta would confirm this.
Another thought: Delta makes an add on kit for the drill press.
Specifically it is the #17-960 Oscillating Spindle Sander Attachment
Accepts sanding drums up to 3". 3/4" stroke. Fully adjustable to fit
most Delta Drill Presses as well as most other models. Includes 3/4"
dia. X 2 1/2" sanding drum and 80-grit and 120-grit abrasive sleeves.
Base is slotted for fast, easy mounting.
I have never seen one in action but I have seen it sold for $90. It
would tie up a drill press and yes it would put lateral forces against
the quill which has a tendency to turn some people off. You could go
out and buy up a cheapo drill press and use it as a dedicated spindle
sander. In the end you'd be close enough to the $200 B.O.S.S. so it's
really a wash. On the other hand you may have a cheapie drill press
lying around dormant from a recent frustration upgrade.
So many tools, so little voltage...
Keith Bohn
From: Nipper at knownet.net
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 11:20 PM
To: the oak mailing list
Subject: dust collection
Josef, in one of the wood mags their was an artical about d.c. in a small
shop. I think it was in his basement. There was a swivel attached to the
rafters that allowed for the pipe to be swung to the area it was needed
at. It looked easy and simple.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 2:40 PM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Dust collection basics-Notes
Recommended reading "Woodship Dust Control Book" by Sandor
Nagyszalanczy.
All runs of duct should be as straight as possible.
Flexible hose should be avoided whenever possible.
Obviously, it's best to buy the dust collector last to first determine
"which" size collector is needed.
The existing collector port on a tool determines the size of the main
duct or branch.
When speaking of running one machine at a time, the size of the "main
duct" should be taken from a large dust making machine furthest from the
dust collector. Large dustmaking machines would be jointers, planers,
and shapers. Not sanders or routers. Routers could be an exception one
way or the other. If a jointer were the furthest from the collector and
had a factory collection port of 4", then a 4" duct could run from the
jointer to the next machine, say a planer. If the planer had a 5" port,
then the main duct should increase at that jucture to 5 or 6" all the
way back to the dust collector unless an even larger machine was used
along the way.
Just for reference, a 3" duct can carry about 170 CFM at the desired FPM
for woodworking dust. A 4", 300 CFM. A 6", 700. A Tablesaw, has a 350
CFM requirement. A typical shop stationary machine planer is *probably*
500-600.
Ratings on dust collectors are "free air" delivery. Meaning, NOTHING,
not even duct is connected to obtain that rating. The actual delivery
after adding duct and connecting is roughly HALF.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mein Name [JosefSeidl at t-online.de]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 12:16 PM
To: The oak mail list
Subject: Dust collection while turning
I love to turn wood - and see the chips flying .. But what I really don't like is all these chips flying towards me.
How can I go about "dust collecting" my turning chips and the dust when sanding my turnings?
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance
Josef H. Seidl
Kn�llwald, Germany
JosefSeidl at t-online.de
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 6:06 PM
To: Mein Name; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Dust collection while turning
Josef Seidl sends:
>I love to turn wood - and see the chips flying .. But what I really don't
>like is all these chips flying towards me.
>
>How can I go about "dust collecting" my turning chips and the dust when
>sanding my turnings?
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks in advance
>Josef H. Seidl
>Kn�llwald, Germany
>JosefSeidl at t-online.de
I've not tried this, so this is pure conjecture...however, it should work
fine.
Another tool that's real hard to do dust collection on is a radial-
arm saw, and the most successful dust collectors for those rely
on a big funnel-like assembly mounted directly behind the saw
and attached to the most powerful dust collector you can get
your hands on.
It seems to me that if you were to build a big open-sided wood
box as long as your lathe bed, as wide as your lathe's swing
(if your lathe can swing a 30cm turning, that's the width of your
box), as tall as it is wide, and shaped like a pyramid with the peak
clipped off, installed dust collector pickup ports 30cm apart,
attached that to the back of your lathe so the open end was
facing the turning, and plumbed that to a good-size dust collector,
your wood chips and sawdust should go into the DC instead of
all over you like mine do.
I just tried something else too, and if you can swing a shop vacuum,
this works okay. I first taped the nozzle of the vacuum to a gouge
and turned a little wood--the shavings were sucked into the nozzle.
Then I removed the nozzle from the gouge and did a little sanding
with the sandpaper in one hand and the nozzle in the other. That
worked too.
--jmowreader
From: Steve Garbini [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 6:42 PM
To: Mein Name; The oak mail list
Subject: RE: Dust collection while turning
Josef,
I spend a fair amount of time at the lathe and my solution to your problem is as simple as it gets. I merely drape the hose from my dust collector over the bed of the lathe such that the open end is near to the turning. Most of my turnings are of the bowl variety and this technique works just fine for both the shavings and sanding. I don't suspect that it would work very well for spindle work, perhaps in that instance you would need to made a "hood" to be effective.
My Two Cents,
Steve Garbini
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 3:41 PM
To: Wood
Subject: Dust collection/router
Some of you might remember my post about my new Delta dust collector
and that I was not sure it was working the way it should. Some of you
suggested that it might take a bit of cake in the bag material before
it 'came on song'. Well somethings happened because its sure suckin
good now. I also built the sanding station/box. I had a bunch of 16"
X 24" X 1/2" melamine covered board so I used 3 for the back, front &
bottom. Cut one in two for the sides and slapped a piece of peg board
on the top, I placed a 4" outlet in the centre bottom and hey presto!
For a few bucks I can sand to my hearts content, hand or ROS.
I thought perhaps I could use the same this box as a base for a Lee
Valley steel router table, I would also use their magnetic dust
shoot.
Question: would pulling some of the dust down past the router screw
it up?
Andy dust free sanding in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Byron W Clinkingbeard [byronclink at juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 8:12 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: dust collectors
I need some advice-
Trying to decide between two different 1 1/2hp dust collectors. Both the
Delta and the Penn State DC2 are rated at 1 1/2 hp. the Delta says
1200cfm and the PSI says 900 cfm. The Delta is $285 delivered with a 10
foot hose. The Penn State is $340 with 40' of hose. So....by the time
you buy more hose for the Delta, they are the same price. The Penn State
comes with 5 micron bags. The Delta doesn't specify, but I'm guessing it
has 30 micron bags. Do any of you have experience with either unit? Do
the 5 micron bags make a huge improvement? Is the difference between 900
cfm and 1200 cfm a big deal? If faced with this choice, which way would
you go? TIA for your help.
Byron Clinkingbeard
Baton Rouge, LA
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 7:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Dust Filtration ReDucks
To make up for my errant ways, here's another for your consideration:
http://www.ssug.org/members/BLMacKenzie/air.htm
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 6:03 PM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com; aknack at voyager.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Dutchman patch
A dutchman patch is like an inlay. Basicly you route or chisel out an area
of wood and then glue in a piece to fill it in. That piece could be of
contrasting color, shape or close match to the surrounding wood. They now
make a special collet for your router to make it easier to make dutchmans.
Al
Big al on the irc
From: Graham McCulloch (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: DW1201
Ray:
They were the finest....if it works and will do a square
cross-cut...and, the price is right....go for it.
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
Ray Berry wrote:
>
> There is an advert in our local paper for a DW1201 Radial Arm Saw. Can
> anyone give me any quick info on this as I have to act quickly to get it.
> Is it worth buying?
>
> Please help fast.
>
> Ray
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 12:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Ellipse Article
I got a phone call today asking how to make an ellipse. When I located a
new product review in a past issue of the magazine, the $600 price tag
for an oval cutting jig didn't sit well with the person. I knew I had a
writeup on this topic on my hard drive, so I came home and cleaned up
the text, added a graphic, and uploaded it to my web site.
It is a pretty simple discussion, but it only costs about a nickel to
make, and that is a far cry from the $600 jig. If anyone is interested
in reading it, the site is at http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/
Rick Christopherson
American Woodworker Magazine
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 3:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Ellipse Article
>I got a phone call today asking how to make an ellipse. When I located a
>new product review in a past issue of the magazine, the $600 price tag
>for an oval cutting jig didn't sit well with the person.
I think I saw this at the IWF. The sticker shock about knocked me
down.
>I knew I had a writeup on this topic on my hard drive, so I came home
>and cleaned up the text, added a graphic, and uploaded it to my web site.
>It is a pretty simple discussion, but it only costs about a nickel to
>make, and that is a far cry from the $600 jig. If anyone is interested
>in reading it, the site is at http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/
>Rick Christopherson
>American Woodworker Magazine
You may also want to contact American Woodworker Magazine. They have
plans on making a jig to shape an ellipse with a router. Nick Engler
has a similar jig in one of his books.
Here are a few other Web based resources.
http://wwwoodcarver.com/WWWEzine/Vol2Issue4/Judt/Ellipses.html
http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathland_9_2.html
http://www.chtree.com/per/jbh/math2.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 4:52 AM
To: 'Rick Christopherson'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Ellipse Article
Rick,
I found your article on drawing an ellipse very informative. I
appreciate your efforts in writing the article. I was expecting to see
an additional article on how to make a router jig to cut the ellipse
(for less than $600 :-) ). Did I miss something or just interpret your
post above incorrectly?
Chuck
From: Moose and Betty (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Elm replacement
From: Tony Moore (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [tonymooreaustralia at netscape.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Elm replacement & "gum" trees
Bruce,
Since I'm from "Downunder",... Australia, I've composed a short list that
might help you identify the particular offending species of "gum" tree. I'm
not really sure of how many different species and subspecies there are which
are native, or common in Australa, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, and some
other south pacific islands. All I know is that there are myriads of them!!
You would have to consult an expert botanist to positively identify what
variety you have.
I had never really thought that there were "straight" gum trees until I
happened to visit South Africa a few years ago and I saw plantations of them!
Straight and tall. They are used there mainly for electricity/utility poles
and as support beams in the mines.
I was also told that these "offending" trees were originally brought to the
California area to replace many of the trees that were lost or cut down for
building material following the great San Francisco earthquake early this
century. They were supposed to be quick growing. Most of the "gum" trees that
I'm familiar with are much slower growing than the kinds I think you have.
Maybe thats why we call them "Hardwoods".
Here is a list of addresses for you:
All about hardwoods and drying timbers. Comparitive specifications on various
"hardwoods":
http://www.hartingdale.com.au./~adh/
Home page for the Victorian Woodworkers association:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~woodlink/woodlink.htm
Various items on hardwoods and gum (eucalyptus...)
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~woodlink/oztimber.htm
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~woodlink/vicwoods.htm
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~woodlink/natfeat.htm
Aust. Wood Artists Promotion page with pictures of work using gum and other
species:
http://www.woodart.com.au
An Aussie(perhaps) bulletin board where you might get more answers about "gum"
trees:
http://www.woodart.com.au/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
Scanned images of Australian woods giving an idea of colours. An extraordinary
effort by someone who has motor neurone disease:
http://www.netspace.net.au/~pjr/wood.html
The Australian National Botanic Gardens, Canberra, Australia
All about eucalypts:
http://155.187.10.12:80/projects/eucalypts/eucalypts.html
Home page:
http://www.anbg.gov.au:80/anbg/anbg-introduction.html
Hope you can find something useful among all these bits & pieces. If you do
find something worthwhile I'd love to here what you make of it
Kind regards,
Tony Moore
"Downunder"
in Melbourne, Australia
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BRUCE GOWENS wrote:
Just a quick reality check here. I understood "Gum" to
be the Australian word for eucalyptus. Since there is so
much eucalyptus in California, it is available for various
projects but I have yet to use it. Any educational comments
on eucalyptus would be useful. We can start with: "What
does 'interlocking' mean in substance, woodworking, and
use?" .............
........ Now lots of eucalyptus is coming on the wood market,
since there is a move to restore native California plants
that the eucalypus has pushed out. The supply will never be
enough for home building, but plenty for woodworking.
Perhaps our friends down under can give us some tips
about a wood that is rare in the USA but most likely more
common than pine where they live.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at
http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 10:01 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: End vise:
Steve W wrote:
> Has anyone built there own end vise for there workbench?? If so could
> you please share your ideas with me??
>
>
Take a look at Woodsmith #50. I built mine using this reference.
Tom Knisely
San Clemente, CA
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 11:25 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: End vise:
For a European style bench I build some years back I used a pipe clamp to
fashion the end vise. Found the plans in a book on shop tools that I can
build. Forget the name, it's at home, I'm at work. But it worked great -
especially when the most accurate tool I had at that time was my circle saw.
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Jeffrey Krauss [jeffreyk at alumni.Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 10:20 PM
To: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Epoxy?
I am about to make a bunch of knobs for a few projects I am in the middle
of. For the knobs that just need threads to tighten onto a bolt, I plan to
use T-Nuts which should have no problem holding on their own. However, I
also need a few knobs that have threaded bolts attached to them. Problem
is, I don't know the best way to attach a piece of threaded rod to the T-Nut
in the knob so that it does not turn. I am assuming that epoxy will work,
but I have never worked with epoxy before. Any suggestions? Do I need a
particular type of epoxy for this task? (Are there even "types" of epoxy?)
Any hints before working with epoxy?
Thanks in advance!
-JeffreyK
<mailto:jeffreyk at alumni.princeton.edu>
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 5:50 AM
To: Jeffrey Krauss
Cc: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Re: Epoxy?
Jeffrey,
Although you're comfortable with the knobs that just need to thread onto
a bolt using T-nuts, you can very easily run into problems. I'm
imagining shaped knobs up to about 1 3/4" dia.
T-nuts are installed by driving them into wood and hold with 3-5 pointed
wedges or prongs. Usually when there is little and/or thin wood
surrounding the T-nut, the wood splits off easily while being driven.
Should the knob instead be substantial in size, a T-nut could be driven
without causing damage, but the wedges (prongs) would pull loose in a
very short time since the direction of pulling is in the same direction
of removal. The T-nut could be installed in the inside of the drawer
face, but a simple nut would do as well.
Far better to drill a proper size hole in the knob and install a NC
(National Coarse) machine screw, then place the nut (usally a square
nut) on the inside of the drawer face. Sometimes machine screws pull or
tear loose from wood when the drill hole is too large and Epoxy or a
Cyanacrolate must then be used. This also is the way to install the
threaded rod in question.
Any commonly available Epoxy will work for your needs. And yes, there
are different types of Epoxy's, but I know little about them. Just
remember, Epoxy does poorly when the Epoxy mass (quantity) is thin
walled.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Allen Knack [aknack at mail.voyager.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 6:07 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Epoxy?
Actually Jim, I don't use this stuff too often. It was the way I was taught
and refered to in there handy-dandy referance book. "do it right" User's
guide.
For what its worth this is from their table:
USE Strength Product Color
Small screws low 222 purple
Nuts & Blots med 242 blue
Pre-assemble med 290 green
Nuts & Bolts High 262 red
Studs <1" High 262 red
Studs >1 High 277 red
I never new they made so many different types.
Enjoy
Al
Big al on the irc
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim & Deb Warman <mechanic at agt.net>
To: Woodworking List <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Epoxy?
>Familiarity may breed ignorance - I use this stuff quite regularly at work
>and the stuff that's usually "there" is the red. I haven't yet had to use
>heat to take something assembled with this stuff apart BUT, theres not much
>that can't be destroyed............oops, disassembled with a good half inch
>impact 8^).
>Jim W.
>Where the frost is on the punkins and I've already used my windshield
>scraper
>mechanic at agt.net
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Allen Knack <aknack at mail.voyager.net>
>To: Jim & Deb Warman <mechanic at agt.net>; Woodworking List
><woodworking at theoak.com>
>Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 3:32 PM
>Subject: Re: Epoxy?
>
>
>>Jim,
>>I beleive that you are mistaken on teh color. RED is the tough stuff. It
>>requires heat to disassemble. BLUE is the weaker stuff.
>>
>>Al
>>Big al on the irc
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim & Deb Warman <mechanic at agt.net>
>>To: Woodworking List <woodworking at theoak.com>
>>Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 3:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: Epoxy?
>>
>>
>>>Jeffery,
>>>
>>>You may consider trying LocTite. No mixing required - simply put a drop
on
>>>the threads and assemble. There are two strengths, but the red (the
"weak"
>>>stuff) should be all that's required. You should be able to find it at
>most
>>>hardware stores or automotive parts stores.
>>>
>>>Jim W.
>>>Where the frost is on the punkins and I've already used my windshield
>>>scraper
>>>mechanic at agt.net
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jeffrey Krauss <jeffreyk at alumni.Princeton.EDU>
>>>To: Woodworking at TheOak <woodworking at theoak.com>
>>>Date: Friday, October 02, 1998 11:44 PM
>>>Subject: Epoxy?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am about to make a bunch of knobs for a few projects I am in the
middle
>>>>of. For the knobs that just need threads to tighten onto a bolt, I plan
>>to
>>>>use T-Nuts which should have no problem holding on their own. However,
I
>>>>also need a few knobs that have threaded bolts attached to them.
Problem
>>>>is, I don't know the best way to attach a piece of threaded rod to the
>>>T-Nut
>>>>in the knob so that it does not turn. I am assuming that epoxy will
>work,
>>>>but I have never worked with epoxy before. Any suggestions? Do I need
a
>>>>particular type of epoxy for this task? (Are there even "types" of
>epoxy?)
>>>>Any hints before working with epoxy?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance!
>>>>
>>>>-JeffreyK
>>>><mailto:jeffreyk at alumni.princeton.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 4:56 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Evaluation of Sear Craftsman Drill Press
All:
A few months ago Zane Harris forwarded one of my posts to Sears.
That post expressed a negative attitude toward Craftsman brand power
tools. As a result of that note being forwarded, two of the Sears
buyers for power tools contacted me. Several lengthy discussions
resulted and one of those buyers suggested that I evaluate one of their
new model drill presses. As a condition, I agreed that I would with a
provision. That provision was that good, bad, or indifferent, any
evaluation would be posted on the internet for any interested party to
see.
As some of you may remember we had some discussion on the list when
this occured. At the time, several on the list felt that Sears would
attempt to send me a "ringer." Such was not the case. As it turned
out, I was told to go to any Sears store, buy the drill press, and I
would be reimbursed. The drill press was bought from a Sears store in
Newport News, VA.
The evaluation is now done, with the exception of the mortise
attachment. Since the drill press is a new model and the old model
mortise attachment did not fit. The new ones were not yet available.
Sears has told me that I will be sent the mortise attachment shortly.
They are being shipped to Sears stores now. I will update the evaluation
at that time.
Since the evaluation contains photographs and is rather lengthy, it
was unsuitable to post it on the list. Kip generously offered to add a
page on his server so that it could be posted. It is now available for
those who are interested at the link listed below. For those who are
interested and do not have net access, I will be happy to e-mail a text
copy.
This week I also received two new Sears routers. I will evaluate
them and will find a means to get that evaluation to those of you who
are interested. I would appreciate feedback and suggestions on what
additional items should be evaluated on the drill press and any ideas on
what should be evaluated on the routers. Thanks!!
http://theoak.com/roundup/review/ken/
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA
From: Eric Lew (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [elew at isports.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: extra HTC base for sale
I have a HTC model HRS-10 mobile base that I dont use anymore for sale.
Fits 21.5" square base.
email me if interested.
Eric
elew at isports.com
From: Steve Garbini [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 6:29 AM
To: 'John T. Horner'
Cc: Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: FastTrack Mitre Gauge is Rather Nice
Howdy John,
I've looked at this miter guide in catalogs several times and it does
appear to be very nice. Was wondering if it has any hold down
capabilities or potential for attachments of hold down fixtures.
What say yea?
My two cents,
Steve Garbini
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 7:10 AM
To: Steve Garbini
Cc: Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: FastTrack Mitre Gauge is Rather Nice
The gauge body itself has two holes in it for attaching the FastTrack
aluminum extension extrusion, but doesn't have a tapped hole for a hold down
in the manner of traditional OEM miter gauges. The FastTrack extension has
upside down "T" slots in it which are sized to take a standard hex head
bolt. The track comes with hardware for attaching a wooden auxiliary fence
using one of these tracks. It also comes standard with a flip-stop
arrangement and a stick on measuring tape. I think a hold-down could be
fastened to the same track which carries the flip stop quite nicely.
I'm not sure how long Wood is going to keep these pages from the Woodshow
Online active, but here is the link:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodshow/fasttrak/deluxe.html
Cheers,
John
From: Randy Brewer [master at firstnethou.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 5:14 AM
To: TheOak
Subject: Fence Backup?
On the cover of the Dec AW and again on pages 66 and 69 Ian Kirby appears to
have
clamped a board behind his Delta fence. Does this fence move during use?
Is it not straight? Or is he just using it as a position marker?
Randy Brewer
Pasadena, Texas
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:22 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Fence Backup?
Randy Brewer wrote:
>On the cover of the Dec AW and again on pages 66 and 69 Ian Kirby appears to
>have clamped a board behind his Delta fence. Does this fence move during use?
>Is it not straight? Or is he just using it as a position marker?
Hey Randy,
I've noticed you didn't get any responses on this query. I've been
diligently waiting for my issue to arrive but I did see it on the
newsstand last night. Funny how that happens. You pay your money and
the rank and file public gets first shot at seeing the current issue.
Really chaps my keister ya know? Well I digress, don't I?
I did take a quick look see at the cover and the fixture Kirby has
slides against the fence. It's strictly there to hold the panel at an
angle to the blade. So to answer your question, it's a position
marker.
Keith (waiting on his issue of AW to arrive) Bohn
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 10:02 PM
To: Dave Tinley
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; Byron W Clinkingbeard; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: fiber cannister
Dave;
I can address the metal duct questions you have posed because this is
what I used for my system. Elbows are made from four adjustable
sectional 90 degree elbows assembled as one 90 degree elbow. This makes
a very nice and very long radius elbow at reasonable cost.
I made up my own tapered reducers from sheet metal rolled into the
proper shape by hand, pop riveted along the seam and sealed. I also
made up Y fittings by attaching a tapered reducer to the side of a main
pipe where required. All joints were sealed with commercial duct sealer
which is basically a thick rubber paint.
You can go the route suggested by Don Weisman in another post and get
metal fittings purpose made in a shop but at what I believe will be
significantly more cost for elbows of the same radius as my sectional
ones. Don's elbows are of 1.5 and 2 times the pipe radius. Mine are
more like 4 times. I have no idea at what point the radius of the duct
is beyond the point of providing a significant improvement in friction
reduction.
As to Moose's plumbing sweeps I expect they are in the order of 1.5
times radius as well.
I looked up my dust collector information source which is issue 25 of
FWW but it does not discuss fittings other than to say that flexible
hose should be kept to a minimum.
Harvey Freeman
>
> Byron-
> Just curious. What kind of ducts did you decide on? I am trying to get my
> system rigged up, but have been all over this here town looking for
> components. I can find waste pipe and connectors in 4" but can't find "Y"
> fitting to go down to the machines, unless I go to Sch40, and then there
> seems to be a big difference in 4" openings, I guess it has to with the wall
> thickness found galvanized ducts but no way to decrease the openings to the
> machines to 2" to fit the dust ports. And then there is the grounding
> problem, went to Dejanews, and now really confused.
> Thanks,
> Dave Tinley
> Waco, Texas
>
> Byron W Clinkingbeard wrote:
>
> > Thanks to all of you who gave advice as to where to find fiber
> > cannisters. Talked with a friend Sunday morning who works at a local
> > plant. He told me they only had the 50 gallon (which is really what I
> > wanted) and he'd snag a couple for me. The DC was delivered last night,
> > so I've got some work ahead of me.
> > Byron Clinkingbeard
> > Baton Rouge, LA
> > http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:15 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Finally figured out how to put a few pictures of some woodworking projects up on my web site
Hey, this web publishing thing is kinda fun .... but I am a little concerned
that it might take away from shop time :).
If you want to have a look at some things I've built in the last year, go
to: http://www.garlic.com/~jthorner/Woodworking/
Compliments are accepted 24 hours a day.
But if you don't have anything nice to say .......
Cheers, John
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:47 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finally figured out how to put a few pictures of some woodworking projects up on my web site
Very nice, John. I particularly like the look of the sun darkened tulip
poplar. How much sunlight exposure is required to darken the boards?
I've seen western red cedar darken dramatically with a couple of hours
exposure. Regards,
Gerald
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:32 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Finally figured out how to put a few pictures of some woodworking projects up on my web site
>Very nice, John. I particularly like the look of the sun darkened tulip
>poplar. How much sunlight exposure is required to darken the boards?
>I've seen western red cedar darken dramatically with a couple of hours
>exposure. Regards,
>
The boards started out with the normal green color heart wood.
I put them out in the sun for about two hours at a time once per day for
three days.
I found that they started bowing if left in the sun too long at a time. I
assume this was due to uneven moisture loss from the heating they
experienced in direct sunlight. We use solar hot water heating at our
house, and the 80 gal water tank gets up to over 150 deg. F on our sunny
summer days. The board face became quite hot to the touch after a few hours
in the sun. Something to watch out for.
Also, of course you want to do the sun darkening after all machining and
finish preparation steps, but before applying the finish. I used Flecto
Prof. Finish, which is a fast drying polyurethane clear varnish. It leaves
a very tough film, which seems sensible given all the handling these drawers
get.
Thanks for the compliment and for the question.
John
From: Hersh, Harry [Harry.Hersh at fmr.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:26 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Finally figured out how to put a few pictures of some woodworking projects up on my web site
John,
Thanks for the images. Quite impressive.
One question I have about the entertainment center: What are the black
rectangles in the lower left and right?
Harry Hersh
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 7:31 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Finish Help?
Hi all,
This is a pretty specialized question for the finishing experts on the
list. My wife was intrigued by the serving tray featured in the Feb 98
issue (Vol 20/No 115) of Woodsmith Magazine, and asked me to build a few
for Christmas presents. No problem, says me. Wrong!
I chose to build four of them, on the theory that tool setup takes more
time than actual machining. That's true to an extent, but this is one
challenging project that will really test your woodworking skills.
Laugh if you will, but try the project if you think I'm exaggerating. I
finished the first one today, and it is done to my satisfaction, which
means equal to or better than the one in the magazine. Here's my
problem.
The tray is a grid of half lap joints, with 5 long and 8 short pieces.
Framed, that creates 54 1" square holes to be finished, or looked at
another way, 216 1" long tiny edges to be finished in addition to the
main structure. Because it is a serving tray and subject to both water
and alcohol spills, I'd like to finish it in polyurethane.
I see three options, and I'd appreciate comments. The least desirable
is to finish it with a brush, as I have always done. The second is to
buy polyurethane in an aerosol can and spray it myself. I have a brand
new spray gun that came with the compressor I bought 30 years ago. It
is still in the original box. I've never used it because I don't have a
suitable area to spray, especially in the winter. The same limitations
apply, but can anyone tell me if the aerosol sprays work OK? The third
option is to find a local pro with a spray booth, and ask him to do my
tray the next time he is doing finishing work. The problem is that he
will probably be using lacquer. Is this an OK finish for a serving
tray? Any advice will be appreciated. Regards,
Gerald
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:51 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
<snip>
>The second is to buy polyurethane in an aerosol can and spray it myself.
<snip>
I am very fond of aerosol sprays for just the sort of application you have.
For small jobs it isn't worth the trouble to clean up a spray gun.
My current favorite brand is Flecto's "Professional Finish". It comes in
black cans and around here is sold at Orchard Supply Hardware and Home
Depot. The Flecto cans have only minimal direct overspray and are very
controllable
It is fast drying and creates a very hard, durable finish.
Don't use the waterbased poly as they aren't as good at resisting spills and
household cleaners. Flecto's water base version is sold as "Diamond
Finish", don't pick it up by mistake.
At $6-$7 per can you can buy some and play with it on a few scraps to get a
feel for it. Several light coats are better than fewer thick coats. Work
in the cleanest space possible in order to minimize dust spots.
Merry Christmas,
John
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 4:35 PM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
Seems to me that any problems with a spray gun, re
temperature, weather, and place-to-do-it would also apply to
an arisol can. And that maybe it was time to use that new
gun (else why would you mention it?).
I think your problem is that you don't know about
spray, and want an excuse to not learn it. Here is the
excuse: The time is short and the presents important,
therefore I do not have time to set up and experiment now.
Too bad. Maybe next year. Now, where is that brush...
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:29 AM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
Gerald wrote: << I see three options, and I'd appreciate comments >> re
finish for the serving trays. BTW, bravos to you. Hope I can get my hands on
the 2/98 Woodsmith Magazine to see them.
May I offer a fourth option - gel varnish. I use Bartley's, applying with a
lint-free cloth, which I stow in a plastic bag between coats. Can't lay my
hands on the literature, but believe that Bartley's says that four coats will
give water and alcohol protection for 24 hours. Three coats, with very light
hand sanding between them, would be gracious plenty. Some ventilation needs
to be provided. I usually do this bare handed, then clean my hands with a
paper towel dampened with mineral spirits. You might want to do a rottenstone
rub a couple of days after the final coat of the varnish.
Please brag and gloat when you're finished with these.
Regards, Rosie, Roswell, Georgia
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:33 AM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
Howdy Gerald
I've tried the spray can varnish/poly and was greatly underwhelmed with it
and it's application properties.
I tried spraying varnish ONCE. It's not a fun thing to do with a normal
spray gun (don't know if it is any better with a HVLP set up). Your dealing
with a finish that takes an hour or more to dry out of tack and with out a
first class spray booth that means you have a huge amount of slow drying
droplets from the bounce back and overspray floating around the shop
sticking to everything.
Lacquer would not be a good idea where exposure to alcohol is expected.
Now to what may work. First would be a wiping varnish/poly. Make it a do it
yourself mixture by thinning your varnish 50% and wiping on thin coats with
a rag. No brush marks and few air bubbles, dries a bit faster then
the full strength stuff. The big draw back is it is a slow build method
which means an extended period of finishing time.
Danish oil is also a valid option. It contains the same resins as a
varnish/poly but with a far greater carrier to solids ration. Again you get
a slower build but it cures much faster then the varnish/poly. It will not
give you a high gloss, but the low gloss hand rubbed oil look is quite
pleasing on some woods (I really like it on walnut). While the protection
level is less then that of a regular varnish it is a finish that is easily
repaired and rejuvenated with additional applications of it.
Lastly, I see someone mentioned a gel varnish/poly. While I have, as yet,
not had the chance to try a gel varnish, I have experimented with a gel
stain on a small pine armoure I built and where I considered the pine to
have too poor a grain pattern for an aniline dye and was pleasantly
surprised with the results. If the Gel varnish/poly works as well as the
stain did It may be worth looking at. If you do let me know what you think.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:53 AM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
The difficulty in the job at hand is great! Finishing edges of 1"
squares having virtually any height will make the woodworking part look
easy by comparison. That is, if you don't want runs, sags, overspray or
blobs. Whats more, how will you physically handle or hold and set it
down or hang? I suppose it could be done in portions.
I don't believe this is the project to get out the spray gun on,
especially if not accustumed to using one.
Arosol cans of Polyurethane I know nothing about, but Polyurethane is a
good choice for your reasons given but I didn't know that Poly was
alcohol proof or resistant. Thats good to know, thanks for the tip. (I
don't know that much about Poly as it is a medium I don't use). I can
imagine many problems with arosol or spray finishing your project no
matter what medium (materials) you use, but new product (some even as
good as the old) is being developed all the time.
My initial thought was "dipping", but that has drawbacks as well unless
the bottom edges matter little.
Although Brushing sounds very tedius to me, it is afterall an
application you are familiar with and might be your best recourse. My
assumption is that the grids are not attached (or are removable) to the
tray itself. If not, you are in deep shit.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:50 AM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Finish Help?
Well, I got what I wanted from my question. I know that polyurethane
isn't the easiest thing to spray, and getting good coverage inside the
grid is apparently very difficult. Unfortunately, the framed grid is an
integral part of the serving tray. I couldn't finish it before assembly
because the frame and grid had to be sanded after assembly to make it
flat.
I guess what I'll do is finish the insides of the grid first with a
small brush, and then use a ROS to remove the inevitable runs on the
faces of the grid before continuing. I've also considered using 1"
masking tape on the grid faces before finishing the edges. Now I know
why I prefer building to finishing. Thanks, all.
Gerald
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 1:05 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: finish nailer
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham McCulloch <graham at shortcuts.ns.ca>
>IMHO, the best on the market thus far are the air tools by Porter-Cable.
>Three very good reasons; the ones that I have tested for over 2 years
>have never jammed. However, (reason # 2) if they do, they have a quick
>release front face to clear the jam. And third, the nails eject very
>close to the front face of the tool, less than 1/8th of an inch. some of
>the other nailers eject more than a 1/4" back.
>
Reason #4, about 1/2 the price of Senco models.
John
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 1:50 PM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: RE: finish nailer
I don't know if they're available in all markets, but I just purchased a
Jamerco 2" finish nailer. The Porter Cable was about the same price, but
the Jamerco has almost nothing protruding past the plane of the nail, and
can be used more "flush" than the PC. Also, the warranty was twice as
long - 2 years. The tool store I bought it from carries Porter Cable,
Senco, Hitachi, and Jamerco. They recommend Jamerco over everything except
Hitachi in the framing monsters.
Gary Cavener
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 11:17 AM
To: Patrick Delaney
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: finish nailer
Patrick Delaney wrote: A finish nailer should shoot 15 & 16 ga. nails. It
should handle from 1 1/4" to 2" nails. If you opt for the angled magazine, be
forewarned that the angle collated fasteners are double or triple the price of
straight collated bars. I have the model with the magazine at a 90� to the
nosepiece. It has gotten into wherever I needed it to, so far.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:38 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Finishing
Hey Group,
This was sent to me in regards to the "Norm Abram's a Communist!"
thread.
>Will you post more about Flexner's book.
>This may be what I joined ww list to learn about!
I didn't bring Flexner up and quite frankly have yet to study at his
feet but did see it as a good opportunity to talk finishing because I
don't think it's talked about enough. Anyhoo, my thoughts.
A) Finishing is a whole separate discipline from cutting and shaping
wood into things we want and need. It could even be called a
necessary evil.
B) A good finisher has to have an understanding of chemistry. It's
funny that I recently heard an interview with a cook who's background
was in chemistry. She rattled off a whole list of basic laws of what
could be mixed with what and in what order. Really made a load of
sense.
C) Most of us find a finish that we can work with and stop there.
But what if I'm a lacquer man and I've never used shellac? What am I
missing?
D) Are there WWW resources devoted to finishing? I thought I'd never
ask.
Finishing Techniques:
Finishing Articles:
http://www.aye.net/~bspen/oldfinish.html
http://sul-server-2.stanford.edu/waac/wn/wn06/wn06-2/wn06-201.html
http://www.americanwoodworker.com/just_finishing/59jf/59just_finishing.shtml
http://falcon.jmu.edu/~dehartcg/finish.htm
http://www.guernsey.net/~handyman/page20.html
http://lafayette.indy.net/~belex/shop.html
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/gunterman/FRENCH.HTM
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/14stainchrry.htm
Forums:
http://www.woodweb.com/~industry/finishingforum/
Fuming & Mission Oak:
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/fuming/1.htm
http://www.wwforum.com/ptools/faqs_articles/missionoak.html
http://www.teleport.com:80/~hippo1/images/mission/oakstain.htm
Good Links:
http://pages.infinit.net/copeau/bookmark.htm
Paint:
http://www.generalpaint.com/glossary.html
http://www.resources.com/colors.htm
Refinishing & Restoration:
http://www.guernsey.net/~handyman/page6.html
http://members.aol.com/proref1/
http://home.sol.no/~nick/woodwork.html
Finishing Supplies:
http://www.amberalchemy.com/
http://www.deftfinishes.com/
http://www.ercwipe.com/index.html
http://www.flecto.com/
http://www.liberon.com/
http://www.commercial-directory.com/faux/text.html
http://www.macfee.com/index2.html
http://www.meritindustries.com/default.htm
http://www.minwax.com/
http://www.intool.com/swelles.htm
http://www.fullerpaint.com/
http://www.refinish.com/
http://www.winsornewton.com/
Finishing Magazines:
http://members.aol.com/proref1/
http://www.macfee.com/refinisherpage.htm
OSHA Data on Finishing:
http://www.macfee.com/refinisherpage.htm
This is no way to be considered complete but it's a start. Please
feel free to offer up your thoughts.
Keith Bohn
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Finishing help - water based dye
I put some water-based dye on a piece made out of quartersawn white oak,
and now I have a slight problem.
I tested the dye (it's a dark mission brown) on a sample piece first, and
since the color/darkness looked good I proceeded to cover the whole thing.
But it turned out way darker than I wanted. I guess I was putting more dye
on the real thing.
Anyway, I washed it down with a wet sponge and that lightened it up
considerably, but there are a few spots that look splotchy now - they're
still a little darker than the surrounding wood. And I'm afraid it might
not be evenly colored.
Should I lighten it up to a point that's lighter than I want (by washing it
down) and then reapply a diluted version of the dye that's lighter the
original, or just wash it down to a lighter color and don't worry about the
splotches and color eveness - I'm going to put an oil coat and shellac on
later and I'm not sure how this will affect the color/eveness.
Any advice?
Thanks,
Daniel
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 6:49 PM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing help - water based dye
Daniel,
It's too late to remove any appreciable amount of dye by washing as you
describe now that it has dried. You might want to try this, soap and
water-wash. Add TSP to hot water and scour the surface with medium
coarse steel wool. Hose piece off and dry immediately. After thoroughly
drying, apply a solution of oxallic acid. Add the crystals to the hot
water. Place object in sun to speed up the process. When dry, rinse
repeatedly with water to neutralize. Also, baking soda in cold water can
be used as a neutralizing agent, but using too much powder may cause
the red (most browns have red) to return. Be cautious or just rinse with
water instead, using a scotch-brite pad. An alternative is to resurface
the wood and start from scratch.
As far as re-applying, that could be tricky. Using a diluted mixture
that is lighter is always a good idea when experimenting or using
unfamiliar product. It's fairly easy to apply a second or more coat, but
difficult to remove one.
Leaving it splotchy and uneven in color? Hey, it's your handiwork. If
you're happy with it, thats what counts.
You're going to apply Oil? Why?
I can tell you though that it will not even out the color nor make the
splotch's disappear. What you see is what you will have.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:48 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Daniel A. Segel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing help - water based dye
Don - thanks for the input. In fact, I'd like to thank everybody that
participates in this forum. It's almost as good as having a woodworking
club in my neighborhood, and in some ways better because the list is open
24 hours a day and includes a widely diverse group of people. I'm just a
hobbiest, and while I don't personally think I'm very good yet, I'm
learning more every day thanks to this list.
As it turned out, a few factors made this project less of a disaster:
1. I was able to lighten it a bit by washing it down while it was still
wet, and
2. My wife claims she likes the dark color. It's hard to tell if she's just
saying that to appease my frustration, but she won't fold under scrutiny so
I'm forced to believe her.
As to why I'm putting the oil on, I'm following the instructions in Jeff
Jewitt's article in the Badger Pond woodworking forum. It's a multiple step
process aimed at recreating a mission oak style finish. The project is a
Stickley mirror made of quartersawn white oak and since I'm a finishing
novice (I usually just use a natural oil finish on Cherry or some kind of
stain on oak) I've been following the directions to a "T".
I just put some linseed oil on the piece this morning, and so far it looks
great. Of course I'm sure part of that is because it's got that "wet oil"
look so I'll have to see how it looks in a few hours. Another good thing -
the directions said to scuff/buff it a bit before applying the oil, and
this coupled with the slight uneveness and splotchiness I caused by washing
it down now gives it a sort of antique look, which is appropriate for this
piece. Mind you, it's not messed up, just a little less than perfect.
The next step is two coats of 2-lb cut shellac, which I've also never done
before.
Thanks,
Daniel
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 5:51 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing info
Mike, Don and All,
Woodworker's Supply does carry an extensive line of Behlen products. I believe
they show most, if not all, in their regular catalog. They also carry J.E.
Moser's line. I believe you can get a catalog with most of their tools,
finishes, plans, etc. by calling their 24 hr. number 1-800-645-9292. I just
checked with a customer rep. and the catalog is free.
They have picked up the Jet tool line and some of their WoodTek tools are
manufactured in the U.S.
They now have stores in Wyoming, North Carolina and New Mexico.
Hope this helps.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Mike Bridges wrote:
>
> I think I used to get a finishing catalog from Woodworker's Supply of
> New Mexico.Just their finishing stuff and it had Behlens products for
> a good price too.Cheaper than most if they still have them.
> Mike Bridges
>
> Donald Weisman wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As far as learning, I remember I took a trip to Dallas Tx. when Star
> > offered 3 day (maybe 2 day) classes on it.
> >
> > Constantine is not high priced in that area or any other area that I
> > ever checked out. In fact, it might look cheap after you look into the
> > Mohawk line.
> > Also, there are mail order Co.'s besides Constantine that carry the
> > Behelen/Mohawk line that don't require the high minimum that Mohawk
> > requires. Garrett Wade is one of those "others".
> > --
> > Don Weisman
> > Abacus Furniture Repair
> >
> >
--
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 6:05 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: blocke at tmisnet.com; woodworking at theoak.com; mike at mikescustomww.com
Subject: Re: Finishing info
There is a outfit out in Mendocino, Calif called Liberon Supplies. They
have all the supplies your looking for and I do not believe they have a
minimum order. I bought a few specialized items from the some time ago.
They carry the Star line. I still had their catalog and pulled it
out. Not only do they have the supplies they have books and videos on
furniture repair. As I remember they have a excellant web site. Try
this site:
http://www.mcn.org/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Lib/liberon.html
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 7:10 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing info
Ken,
Thanks for that new site. The page you indicated was out of date. Did
a quick search on the site. Here's the new link.
LIBERON / Star Wood Finish Supply
http://www.liberon.com/
Frederik
From: Tony Moore [bt at stbedes.melb.catholic.edu.au]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 2:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing info
Bill,
There is a soft-covered handbook available from an Australian source, plus
lots of hints on-line for polishing and repairing furniture at:
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/
The book titled: "A Polishers Handbook" is at:
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/publish.html
has a number:
ISBN 0 646 25424 3
I checked both on-line catalogs at: http://www.amazon.com (USA)
under this number as well as http://www.bookworld.com.au
(Australia) the book does not show up on either of these databases so I
presume it's only available at this time direct from the author (Neil Ellis) at:
'u Beaut Publishing
Postal Address: PO Box 46, Newstead Victoria 3462 Australia
Phone: Australia: 03 54762356 Mobile: 018 602 545
International+ 61 3 5476 2356
E-mail: ubeaut at netcon.net.au
There are lots of hints for do-it-yourself people who want to restore old
furniture at:
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/polish.html
You will find all the hints on the "Information pages" under each type of
polish. There are instructions on how to mix your own from various
ingredients instead of buying the pre-mixed ones at a very expensive
"pre-mixed" price.
It explains why many polishing products, even unopened on the shop shelves,
are often useless or can even cause more damage to the pre-loved furniture.
There is a large section on using the different types of shellac and on
"Padding Laquer"
Some of these polishing products will be sold in USA and other countries
under different names. To give you some idea of what you shold pay for
polishes etc, look at: http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/price.html
USA prices are about 35% less than the listed Australian prices
That is $10 Australian is about $7 US
I'm not exactly sure what you refer to when you talk about a burn-in knife,
but if it has anything to do with decorating timber by burning designs, you
might find these references useful
http://www.sympac.com.au/pyrocafe/
http://www.sympac.com.au/pyrocafe/frontdesk.html
http://www.sympac.com.au/pyrocafe/page27.html
Various book titles:
http://www.sympac.com.au/pyrocafe/page7.html
Hope that among all these bits & pieces you find something useful,
Kind regards,
Tony Moore
in Melbourne, Australia
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 4:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing Info (correction)
Chuck/Don/Fred:
Sorry, guess the url was out of date. I should have checked it. Took
it off their catalog Fred found it and it is as follows:
http://www.liberon.com/
As Don pointed out in another note, Star Products has been sold out.
What I had bought form them was the Star Urethand-Lacquer. A few months
ago I tried to buy some more. Liberon told me that Star was bought out
by another company and they were consolidating there producuts. Bottom
lines was they did not have the Urethane-Laquer, but said they thought it
would be available in the fall. Also said all the other existing Star
products were available under a new name. Will give them a call on
Monday and get back.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 7:09 AM
To: knm1 at juno.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Finishing Info (correction)
Ken,
I guess you're aware that Urethane-Lacquer (containing Urethane resins)
has a shelf life (starting with day of manufacture) of 12 months.
Urethane-Lacqer should be Amber in color when received. After 11 months
and 30 days :-), will start turning darker, but the product will remain
good for a long while.
Urethane lacquer is considered a hazardous (shipping) material.
Therefore intra-state shipping will increase the costs significantly.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Michael J. Lee [stump-e at dnc.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 3:05 PM
To: 'Bruce Gowens'
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Finishing info correct URL for Liberon
In case anyone is interested, here is the correct URL. Thanks Bruce for the
original, it led me the right way.
Mike
http://www.liberon.com/
From: Jim Sparks [rineco at htc.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 12:10 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: Finishing with Polyurethane
I've been using oil based polyurethanes on some red oak projects.
Several coats with a light sanding between coats. Now however, based on
a friends comment, I'm wondering if I'm getting the best finish. He
indicated after sanding I should then be polishing with steel wool.
I sure would appreciate some guidance on finishing when using oil based
polyurethane.
Jim the Novice
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 11:37 AM
To: rineco at htc.net; woodworking
Subject: Re: Finishing with Polyurethane
Dear Mr Novice,
sandpaper or steel wool is used on a *cured* coat of reactive
finish, varnishes mostly, and polyurethane is just that, so the
next coat will be able to adhere mechanically to it. Once the
necessary scratches obtained, there's no use for more and
there's a real risk to remove too much finish. I avoid steel
wool (rust with water based finishes and flecks to remove in any
cases) and routinely use 320 grit SiC, stearated (no-load) and
sand with the grain.
One day, you'll have to change your name.
Jean Montambeault
Montr�al, Qu�bec,Canada
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 4:00 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Flat Panel Stile & Rail Construction
O.K., we've just come off of discussing allowance for solid panel
inserts in stile and rail doors and I agree that the best tact is to
use some of Peter's balls ( :-O ) to keep the panel from rattling,
spaced evenly and allow for expansion and contraction. Now riddle me
this Batmens and Batwomen.
I want to make a set of three stacking boxes with pull out trays to
store tools. The boxes will have fixed ends, back top and bottom.
The front will flap down and slide into the box ala a barrister's
bookcase. The front won't fully retract to allow for pulling a tray
out and setting on the extended portion. A bit like a machinist's box
(Gerstener style) without the upper portion. Still with me?
I've initially sized each box to hold 4 or 5 trays each somewhere
around 3" high by 12" deep by 24" long making the box somewhere in the
18" tall by 14" deep (front to back) by 26" wide (left to right). Now
for my problem. I'll be having all of these on a roll-around platform
but on occasion I want to be able to carry the individual boxes with
full trays. As laid out above the boxes alone will be pretty heavy so
I was thinking I'd used a stile and rail construction with a 1/4" flat
panel. I want this to be something nice like cherry or maple so I'm
pretty locked in on material selection. Finally my question.
I need the panels to be as rigid as possible so I'm inclined to make
them tight fitting to the stiles and rails and gluing them along all
four edges. My experience tells me that the 1/4" panel won't be
moving in width and length like solid stock and the stiles and rail
construction won't be moving much either as they will be 3/4" by
2 1/4" material. Solid wood moves very little in length so it should
work. Right?
Have I overlooked anything?
Keith Bohn
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:10 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Flat Panel Stile & Rail Construction
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:12:50 GMT, Duke of URLs wrote:
>Can we side bar here? If you look at 3/4 extension slides you'll note
>that they run anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of full extension.
>Here's what I'm thinking. I want the trays to be around 12" to 14"
>deep. If I use 16" or 18" 3/4 extension drawer slide my trays will be
>fully accessible in the extended position. It's a bit like the
>extended drawer side scenario you mentioned above and we are talking a
>considerable savings. Someone wanna check my logic? Did I miss
>something?
That will go. I built an out feed table for my Jet CS. I am working
in a fairly small space. It ended up about 14" wide. But it is
mounted on 18" 3/4 extensions. The end of the extensions stick under
the TS table. Thus is normally is tight against the back of the saw,
but I can pull it out much farther.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 6:07 AM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Flat Panel Stile & Rail Construction
Duke of URLs wrote:
>
> Don comments:
> >Maybe this will help. If there is enough height, build a "kicker". That
> >will prevent "droop". Also, if there is enought depth instead of height,
> >if the drawers are designed to have the drawer sides extend past the
> >drawer back an inch or two, this will also prevent the drawer from
> >drooping as it will still be captured.
>
> I'm starting to come around to this idea Don. I originally thought I
> didn't want the "wasted" space. Upon reflection it's a pretty foolish
> concern. I mean, what are we talking about, an extra square foot?
> Besides, this suggestion has led to another thought I go into below.
>
> >> The cheapest I've found is the #3829s at around $10 to $11 a set which
> >> translates to around $100 total for all the drawers.
>
> >No Keith, not a #3829. Check out #2632 instead. Although I think there
> >was even another one that required slightly less height. Hey, I didn't
> >say anything about cost :-).
>
> As it turns out the #2632 is a buck more than the #3829. We shouldn't
> squabble over a buck and the #2632 is the right height. I mean a buck
> each translates into an overall added cost of $12. Hoo boy, stop the
> presses while I crowbar open the wallet.
>
> Can we side bar here? If you look at 3/4 extension slides you'll note
> that they run anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of full extension.
> Here's what I'm thinking. I want the trays to be around 12" to 14"
> deep. If I use 16" or 18" 3/4 extension drawer slide my trays will be
> fully accessible in the extended position. It's a bit like the
> extended drawer side scenario you mentioned above and we are talking a
> considerable savings. Someone wanna check my logic? Did I miss
> something?
>
> >Gerstner photo is close, but not close enough! And the name is not right
> >either. But that's okay, I'm not suggesting one is better than the
> >other.
>
> I'm curious about the boxes you are referring to. I'd really like to
> beat this to death and see all the options prior to starting. :-)
>
> Keith Bohn
Keith,
A 3/4 extension slide requires the same depth as either a "full"
extension or a "overtravel" slide. The difference will be in the height
of the slide and the load weight rating. All accuride slides are tested
for ratings using a 16" length and set no further than 24" apart.
Accuride slides are rated at half their total carrying weight. I could
make a phone call for you to verify Accurides style number of the slide
I spoke about earlier that was intended for your very purpose. Let me
know. By-the-way, not the difference in the load weight between the
polymar bearing and the steel ball bearing.
Regarding Gerstner thing: I'm very glad to see someone else besides
myself with the tenacity to insist on getting just the right thing. I
will inquire and should get back to you on the proper name, today...if
humanly possible.
Another possible consideration might be to install slides on the
"deeper" and therefore heavier ones, only. On the others, make a wood
slide. For one thing, it's very (to me) satisfying to create something
that really really works. Another...it's fun. Another...it will save
some bucks, but cost more in time. I can always remember how cheap my
time was. The wood slide is quite simple and employs only a little hand
work. Essentially, the drawer side has a Dado in it running the length
of the drawer at the center of the height. The divider between each
drawer has a piece of wood screwed onto it which fits into the dado.
Presto, a wooden drawer slide thats planed to fit with no slop and no
space is lost due to metal drawer slide requirements (total 1"). The
negative is that the drawer sides need to be thicker and a decent
hardwood must be used for the side and the carcase piece.
Theirs yet another slide, but it could be too long for your application.
A dado is cut out of the drawer side and the steel ball bearing slide
fits into the dado flush on the outside of the drawer side and screws
in, but requires even thicker sides (probably 5/8"). Always something to
get in the way of a perfect idea, huh Keith? :-)
Damn I wish I could remember the name of the box.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:08 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Danny E. Cook; woodworking
Subject: Re: Flying Throat Plate
Donald;
Your comment is generally correct but I was confronted by a Craftsman
plate that was about 1/16" thick steel and overlayed the table for an
area of about 3" x 3" at the back of the blade. I know of no material
that you want to run a saw blade up through as zero clearance that will
hang together at 1/16" thickness. There are some strange saw
configurations out there but I am not sure if they are all Craftsman.
> Danny,
> Whisper...You're supposed to make 'em, not buy 'em.
> --
> Don Weisman
> Abacus Furniture Repair
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:26 AM
To: Sharon Bannister
Cc: gcavener at teleport.com; Danny E. Cook; woodworking
Subject: Re: Flying Throat Plate
Sharon Bannister;
> Just as a side note, the thickness is very important from a safety standpoint
> also.
......big snip......
In you case you could have solved the problem for your purposes very
easily by shimming the plate with some masking tape. In the case of my
throat plates I drill and tap for setscrews so they are easily adjusted
to be dead flush.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:01 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Danny E. Cook; woodworking
Subject: Re: Flying Throat Plate
Gary;
One thing to remember is that Danny is looking for 0.090" thick
material. This is less than 1/8" thick. Pretty thin and delicate in any
of the materials you mention below.
If there is an aftermarket aluminum plate into which you can insert wood
blocks as was posted by another member then this is the way to go. I
did a similar thing for a Craftsman saw that had a steel throat plate by
inlaying a block of phenolic.
> Would a plate made of plywood, hardboard, acrylic, or that slippery white
> high density vinyl stuff work? If you can find the right thickness, use
> double stick tape or a touch of contact cement to hold your present throat
> plate to the new stock and cut it to size with a pattern cutting router bit.
> Put the new plate in your table, move the rip fence (as a hold down)over the
> plate, leaving plenty of room for the blade, and raise the blade up through
> the plate to the height you will be using most of the time. It works for
> me.
>
> Gary Cavener
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 5:01 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Danny E. Cook; woodworking
Subject: Re: Flying Throat Plate
Harvey Freeman wrote:
>
> Donald;
> Your comment is generally correct but I was confronted by a Craftsman
> plate that was about 1/16" thick steel and overlayed the table for an
> area of about 3" x 3" at the back of the blade. I know of no material
> that you want to run a saw blade up through as zero clearance that will
> hang together at 1/16" thickness. There are some strange saw
> configurations out there but I am not sure if they are all Craftsman.
>
> > Danny,
> > Whisper...You're supposed to make 'em, not buy 'em.
> > --
> > Don Weisman
> > Abacus Furniture Repair
>
> --
> Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
> 123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
> Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
> Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
Harvey,
If memory serves me on the Craftsman model I had some years ago for
which I had made several inserts for and one being a zero clearance, the
insert was made from about 3/8" thick Baltic Birch or thicker material
and rabbited around the edge so as to rest on the tabletop casting at
the throat opening.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:27 AM
To: woodworking
Subject: Re: Flying Throat Plate
Michael,
I think that choice would be very good. Phenolic, or Epoxy boards for
computers/printed circuits (2 different things I believe) should work
great with carbide bits if you get the thicker ones.
F.
Michael Osadchuk wrote:
>
> Harvey
>
> What about the material used for electronic circuit boards. I believe it is
> typically a phenolic. And available from a surplus electronics stores.
> Cuts with with the usual woodworking tools.
>
> Michael Osadchuk
> Newmarket, Ontario
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 1:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Foley-Belsaw Planer/Moulder
I got a call from a guy who is looking to sell this old Foley-Belsaw planer
moulder. I think he said it is a model 95, a big, old unit. It has a 5hp,
220v motor, single phase. He has the gang-rip feature, the planer head, the
moulder head and a few moulder dies as well. I do not remember if he said
it has a sanding drum or not (or if there was/is one available).
What aspects of this machine do I need to look at when deciding on a
purchase? Are parts or manuals still available? Moulding cutters (he used
the term "dies")? I've bought used equipment before, so I'm familiar with
looking for signs of major abuse, non-factory engineering, missing parts,
etc. But, anything anyone can offer about this machine would be greatly
appreciated.
Also, how wide is this machine? I'm thinking at least 12" wide. How heavy
too?
Thanks a bunch. Todd Burch.
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 2:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Foley-Belsaw Planer/Moulder
-----Original Message-----
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com <tburch at cdbsoftware.com>
>I got a call from a guy who is looking to sell this old Foley-Belsaw planer
>moulder. I think he said it is a model 95, a big, old unit.
You might find some useful information from: http://www.belsaw.com/
John
From: Brian Molinari [molinari at tiac.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 8:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
A follow up to my first review of my Ridgid oscilating spindle sander...
Well, from the outside, the Ridgid OSS seemed like a nice little sander. Better,
IMHO, than the Delta BOSS as it has a larger tilting table which the delta
doesn't, and the oscilating belt sander as an extra... Now the disappointment.
Me, being the nosey , mechanically inclined type, got curious about how this
sander worked.... Well, off came the bottom of the machine... By the way, the
box the sander came in said "Built in the USA"..... Yeah, Right...... The bottom
of the aluminum table says "Emerson - Taiwan".... Now that the bottoms off, I
see that the only metal in this sander is the table and the main part of the
motor... Now granted, some plastic is ok but this machine is just about all
plastic. I prefer iron and steel where it counts if I expect the tool to last...
Here comes the bad part... On this machine, the motor doesn't move up and down
like the delta boss, The motor is stationary and the shaft itself moves up and
down.... The armature, instead of being a shaft, is a hollow pipe. It's splined
on the inside and a splined shaft rides inside of it and travels up and down
while rotating. This in itself isn't a bad idea. What is bad though is the
oscilating mechanism is all plastic. There is a plastic gear and follower
attached to the bottom of the shaft which rides inside a plastic cam housing
which makes it oscilate. The plastic cam housing can be seen on the bottom of
the sander without removing the bottom... All and all, a real piece of
crap...... structually...... And what gets me is the fact that Emerson must
know this POS isn't going to last... The "Lifetime" warranty only applies to
defects in materials, not normal wear.... I guarantee you these plastic parts
will fail and ridgid will call it wear and not replace the parts for free..... I
also bet the parts are quite expensive.... I figure this machine is good for an
occasional use only.... I really don't see it holding up to any serious usage...
After seeing that disappointment, I decided to kick in the extra money and get
the Grizzly OSS.... It's a floor model and weighs in at #345 vs #43 the ridgid
was. I did a deja news search for the Grizzly and the people that have them love
them.. This is my first Grizzly purchase and my first big machine mail order
experience....... My fingers are crossed and I hope you'll all prey for me :-)
I'll keep you posted on the Grizzly.............
Brian..........
molinari at tiac.net
Buy the best and only cry when the wife finds out !!!
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:10 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
>A follow up to my first review of my Ridgid oscilating spindle sander...
Brian, thanks for the review. I've been interested in the Ridgid ever
since it was released and found your insight invaluable. I know the
Grizzly sells for around $500. What is Home Depot getting for the
Ridgid?
And along the same lines the May/June 1984 Issue 46 issue of Fine
Woodworking has an article on building a oscillating spindle sander
using a cheapo Chiwanese drill press and worm drive reduction motor.
I figure this thing could be cobbled together for anywhere from $150
to $200 and in a home shop would probably last a long time. I like
the design because they've taken the drill press head and flipped it
180 degrees and mounted it in a cabinet ala router table style so it
would be similar to the Grizzly.
Delta makes a oscillating attachment for the drill press that retails
for around $90 and to the best of my knowledge would/should fit their
$120 drill press. I'm not sure if you could flip this one over and
mount it in a cabinet or not.
Keith Bohn
From: Brian Molinari [molinari at tiac.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:30 AM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:10:16 GMT, you wrote:
>>A follow up to my first review of my Ridgid oscilating spindle sander...
>
>Brian, thanks for the review. I've been interested in the Ridgid ever
>since it was released and found your insight invaluable. I know the
>Grizzly sells for around $500. What is Home Depot getting for the
>Ridgid?
The Ridgid is $239.00 US at HD.........
>And along the same lines the May/June 1984 Issue 46 issue of Fine
>Woodworking has an article on building a oscillating spindle sander
>using a cheapo Chiwanese drill press and worm drive reduction motor.
>I figure this thing could be cobbled together for anywhere from $150
>to $200 and in a home shop would probably last a long time. I like
>the design because they've taken the drill press head and flipped it
>180 degrees and mounted it in a cabinet ala router table style so it
>would be similar to the Grizzly.
>
Sounds interesting...... If you make it I'd like to see a pic of it.......
>Delta makes a oscillating attachment for the drill press that retails
>for around $90 and to the best of my knowledge would/should fit their
>$120 drill press. I'm not sure if you could flip this one over and
>mount it in a cabinet or not.
>
I've seen this delta attachment in action. It works ok... My understanding is
that side loads on a drill press quill aren't good for the bearings.. I use a 3"
sanding drum on mine and so far haven't had any problems. Besides, I did try the
Ridgid before I returned it and the oscillating motion, like a ROS, gives a very
smooth scratch free finish on end grain. And besides, my shop is a whole 43x65
cellar.... I wanna see if I can fill it up with machines in my lifetime :-)))))
Brian..........
molinari at tiac.net
Buy the best and only cry when the wife finds out !!!
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 7:48 AM
To: Brian Molinari
Cc: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
I'd like to point out a couple of things. No way should the Grizzley and
the Rigid be compared to each other. I would agree that Rigid as Brian
said is a throw away model made for light intermittant use, and the
Grizzley is a much more heavier duty machine. I'm sure everyone here
realized that. But not everyone needs a heavyier duty cast iron
oscillating sander with 6" tall spindles @$500. I'm confident that most
would like the advantages of an oscillating sander, but would like what
I'm going to call a "decent" machine value.
I believe that Ryobi's Oscillating sander (that used to be in the $200.
range) answers those needs. I have one and generally use it maybe once
or twice a week for about 3 to 10 minutes each time. It's going on 3-4
years now without the first bit of trouble. The shaft speed is adequate,
as is the oscillation speed and amount of oscillation. The dust
collection is very good even with the slightly odd sized port. I find
little or no deflection when presenting the wood to the sanding sleeve,
and the hard plastic laminate table top, though not the largest, is very
reasonable in being 90� to the sleeves. I've never yet needed to tilt a
top for beveling work which is not possible anyhow on a Ryobi. Sanding
sleeves are readily available locally.
Check below for my experience in sanding with a Drill Press.
Some say the bearings in a drill press are not made for side pressures.
I go along with that. Years ago I too used sanding drums (anyone want
them?) of different sizes, just like you. It ruined my drill press. Even
replacing the bearings twice has not made any improvment on the side to
side play of the quill. Granted, it's not much, but often enough I need
exact dead center. I can find that center, but the drill press wanders
off it with the different densitys of the grain.
If it's true, that early day rounting and sanding caused permanent
damage to the casting where the race sets, well...
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 9:17 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
Keith and all, I think the the Delta attachment uses a
cam follower and relies in the spring return for the up
motion. The added weight might not let it move in
both directions.
geo
<Snip>
>Delta makes a oscillating attachment for the drill press that
retails
>for around $90 and to the best of my knowledge would/should
fit their
>$120 drill press. I'm not sure if you could flip this one
over and
>mount it in a cabinet or not.
>
>Keith Bohn
>
From: Bill Neely [bill.neely at cmug.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 9:04 PM
To: Brian Molinari
Cc: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
Lee Valley makes a neat little foot for the sanding drum that takes up the
side
thrust on a drill press, I bought one but haven't had a chance to use it yet.
Bill
>
> ... My understanding is that side loads on a drill press quill aren't good
for
> the bearings.. I use a 3" sanding drum on mine and so far haven't had any
> problems. Brian..........
> molinari at tiac.net
>
> Buy the best and only cry when the wife finds out !!!
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:51 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Follow up, Ridgid oscilating spindle sander
Just a heads up. The Feb. 1999/Issue #112 (current) issue of Wood
magazine has a review and comparison of all the spindle sanders.
I was quite surprised that the Craftsman/Ryobi garnered the most
number of "excellents". Not saying they are the best as you'd have to
see the judging criteria. The Delta was noted as the best value.
They do mention that the Grizzly and Ridgid oscillating belt sanders
will be reviewed in a later issue.
Keith Bohn
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 6:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Forest "Woodworker II" saw blade
All:
Many of you have stated how good the forest blades are. While I
suspected they were good, it did not seem logical that a 40 tooth blade
could be good a cutting plywood and veneers or give quality crosscuts on
hardwoods. I am one of those people who avoids changing from a crosscut
to a rip, to veneer blades. Not that I am too cheap to buy a couple of
extra blades, but just don't want to take the time for blade changes.
My desire was to find a blade that did it all and did them better than
individual blades. Again being lazy, I wanted a cut that did not
require sanding or planning.
Well I finally broke down and bought the Forest Woodworker II thin
kerf blade. Forest recommends that you use a (one) stabilizer on their
thin kerf blade so acquired one of those as well.
Gave it a test run yesterday, Cut some oak cabinet grade plywood,
some very hard white oak, some cherry and walnut. The results were
impressive. It leaves a glue joint quality edge on rips and the
crosscuts are glass smooth. No hint of saw marks at all. It is a
aggressive blade but not aggressive as some CMS blades that I have
used. The trade off is the quality of the cut is better.
I followed that blade height recommendations given by Forest. Full
blade height for ripping, one inch higher than that the materiel
thickness for cross cutting on solid materials and the height of the
gullet for plywood and veneers. Forest also recommend that the fence
should be not exactly parallel with the blade. The rep that I bought the
blade from, suggested that adjust the fence so that the fence is moved
away from the rear of the blade by about .003 to .004". I usually
adjust it for about .001" opening. The rep indicated that opening up
the fence will eliminate burning. If your wood burns, then you are
overheating the blade as well. While I did not readjust my fence for
the initial test cuts, I will probably get around to it shortly.
I made my cuts with the standard Delta insert in my saw. There was
no tear out on the solid wood. Minor tear out was experienced on the
plywood. I replaced the standard insert with a zero clearance insert
and the tear out on the plywood was eliminated. The blade did a better
job on the oak plywood than the 80 tooth Freud that I had been using for
plywood. No burn was experienced which was not surprising as I rarely
experience it with any blade. About the only time I see burning is when
I am ripping rough cut lumber.
Getting blades sharpened has always been a problem. There is no
decent sharpening service in my area. It is sad to buy a high quality
blade and then to see its performance degraded the first time it is
sharpened. Forest blades can be returned to the factory and be
sharpened to original specifications. Forest claims they use a finer
diamond stones than what normal blade sharpeners use. They will also
sharpen other manufacturer's blades. Am planning to use their service
so hopefully the high performance that I am experiencing in the new
blade can be maintained through its entire life.
The blade is a bit pricey. Get ready to part with a "C" note if you
want one of these blade. Based on my experience it is money well
spent.
Ken MartinFrom: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 1:12 PM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Forest "Woodworker II" saw blade
Ken:
I've had my Forrest blades sharpened several times by Forrest. What's
worth mentioning is that 1 came back sharper than when new! The only
thing I can figure out is their production line of new sharpening is not
the same line as re-sharpening. Because of re-sharpening, perhaps it's a
1 on 1 situation, so more attention is paid...I don't know. But there is
no mistake on the blade being sharper than ever before. I can't remember
if it was for every re-sharpened blade either. Maybe I just got lucky
with 1. The new employee was following instructions?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Forstener Bits Compared
I recently purchased a set of . . . well, a lot of forstener bits from Harbor
Freight Tools. Cheap Taiwan stuff. For shucks and grins I bought a Wolfcraft
f. bit for comparison. My Taiwan or - oh! China actually! - anyway, the cheap
bit cut cleaner and more quickly than the pricy Wolf..
-Steve
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:55 PM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Forstener Bits Compared
I don't have many forstner bits but the ones I do have are the "cheaper"
ones. House of Tools in Edmonton carries two lines......one is a
recognizable brand name (which escapes me at the moment), the other an
"overseas" brand. The imports are about half the price of the brand name
jobbies and, me being a tightwad, you can guess which I opted for.
I can't complain at all SO FAR..........but, SO FAR, I'm quite happy with
the results I've obtained. The only strange thing is that the RPM
limitations printed on the package are very, very different from those
marked on the shank of the bit.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:34 AM
To: Dave Tinley
Cc: Jim & Deb Warman; SDigiac503 at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Forstener Bits Compared
Dave Tinley wrote:
>
> Yo All-
> Since this thread on forstner bits began, I have been wondering- Has anybody
> out there sharpened these bits yet???? And if so what type/shape stone
> used????
> I have a small, inexpensive set and am wanting to add more, but I am thinking
> that I can get a set of imports (about $40.00) and sharpen them. Any ideas?
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Tinley
> Waco, Texas
Since good Forstner bits are so expensive, I've always given them out to
a grinding specialist. Not that it's done often, as I consider them a
specialized bit which have limited application and little usasge.
Multi-spur bits incorrectly often called Forstner, are relatively easy
to sharpen by one's self. I use a file and/or a small tapered slip stone
(oil and arkansas) just the the purpose of honing small edges to
maintain the original angles best as possible.
FWW #70 an older issue, gives good clear instruction or see your local
Public Library. (It's gotta be there somewheres)
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:09 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Forstener Bits Compared
Dave and all, here's my experience. I got the 20 piece Harbor Freight
set, and it was not ready to use as delivered. I have sharpened each
size as I needed to use it. It's really pretty simple. For all but the
smallest sizes, the cutting edges are nothing more than flat scrapers.
A 1"x3" diamond hone works nicely. Just work the flat surfaces until
you have a keen edge, and dress the outside diameter while you're at
it. They work well for me after sharpening, but I saw a much better
quality set a couple of months ago at Woodworker's Warehouse for the
same price. Check out your local stores before you order from Harbor
Freight.
Gerald
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 6:47 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Foster K. Line?
Hi all!
I have a chance to pick up a Foster K. Line 12" thickness planer. Anyone know if these are good machines? Knives still available?
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
============================================
From: Kurt A. Byfield [kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Free House - Results
Duke of URLs wrote:
>
> There are a lot of companies that specialize in surgically extracting
> the good stuff and re-selling it. In the future someone may find
> these links handy.
>
> http://www.salvageone.com/
If you're ever in the Chicago area, and have a day to kill, this place
is a lot of fun. They have a HUGE assortment of stuff and if there's
anything you're looking for, odds are good that they've got it. And
even if you're not looking for anything in particular, it's still a
great place to visit.
Be sure to bring gloves, as it's all fresh from the site, and
un-cleaned. Also dress appropriately: The building is unheated, or at
least it was 2 years ago.
Kurt
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:16 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Free House - Results
Well, spent 1/2 the weekend at the tear-down house. Man, that's a lot of
work. I'm aching today. Below is a write up of the major experiences had.
I'm not quite through, still have more material (200 linear feet of
ship-lapped southern yellow pine 1X10) to haul off and still more wall
boards to remove.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Free House - Results
I realized with Todd's fast track schedule that posting these URLs
last week wouldn't have helped him. It's a real pity to see an
architecturally significant structure getting the heave ho and salvage
is our last resort sometimes.
There are a lot of companies that specialize in surgically extracting
the good stuff and re-selling it. In the future someone may find
these links handy.
http://www.tias.com/amdir/SpecArchitectural.html
http://www.architecturalsalvage.com/
http://www.architectural-salvage.com/index.html
http://www.salvageone.com/
If you live in a city that has a salvage yard consider yourself lucky.
It's a great way to kill a Saturday.
Keith Bohn
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 12:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Free Tools
I am forwarding this ad from our local paper for your amusement.
Dean Horstman - Seattle Washington
<<...>> Little Nickel, WA - 10/22/98
<http://www.virtualclassifieds.net/Lasso.acgi?-search&-database=publications
.db&code_pub=ln%20all%20little%20nickel&-response=/VC/pub_template.html>
FREE Delta tools. 2 sanding centers, 14" wood cutting band saw,
2-spd heavy duty wood shaper, DC 380 15" planer, table mount plate joiner,
10" tilting arbor unisaw w/LVC and 52" unifence, DJ20 8" jointer, All
machinery is new and comes with thousands of dollars of accessories. You
build the cabinets for my house, you keep the tools. Call for details.
360-871-2777
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 8:27 AM
To: blocke at tmisnet.com; oak
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits
That's exactly what I did when my biscuits swelled up after I left them out
one (rainy) day last summer. It seemed to work fine; they shrunk right back
up. These were either PC or DeWalt brand biscuits (can't remember which,
but that's all I've got available at the local Eagle or Home Depot).
Daniel
At 07:46 AM 11/13/98 -0800, bill locke wrote:
>To All,
>If biscuits are swollen from high humidity, is this a non reversible
>situation? Can they be baked in an oven and returned to their former
>thickness? Has anyone tried this?
>Bill in San Diego
>
>
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 8:46 AM
To: blocke at tmisnet.com
Cc: oak
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits
Although I use very few bicuits I have run across this problem.I stick
them in the microwave for 15-30 seconds.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
bill locke wrote:
>
> To All,
> If biscuits are swollen from high humidity, is this a non reversible
> situation? Can they be baked in an oven and returned to their former
> thickness? Has anyone tried this?
> Bill in San Diego
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:55 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
I know, everyone on the list hand cuts mortise and tenon joints any time
they need to join wood.
But theoretically speaking, do you find that the brand of biscuit used
matters? Currently I have some Porter Cable #20s and some Freud #20s.
Both have been stored in the same manner (plastic jar w/lid) for the past
several months. The Porter Cable ones are distinctly thicker than the
Freuds, and are hard to get into the slot cut by my Dewalt biscuit cutter.
The Freuds slip in and out with just a touch of friction while the Porter
Cables require a mallet to seat. With biscuits tight like that it is hard
to keep from scrapping all the glue off during insertion.
The Freuds also seem stronger when subjected to the break it with your hands
test. Am I imagining things? Does it matter? Obviously for edge joining
/ aligning purposes it probably make very little difference, but for other
applications the strength of the biscuit and the quality of the biscuit to
main wood glue joints are important to overall strength.
I know, I know, I should sell the whole lot and stick to hand cut dovetails
and m/t joints ... but then I wouldn't enjoy watching Norm anymore :).
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:41 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
John,
I only had one bad experience. I always only used Lamello brand. When I
went to my supplier one time, he was out, but had another brand...which
I bought. The biscuits were more difficult to insert and as you
mentioned, would indeed force the glue off the sides and of course I
returned them. (I hate to make 1 trip, let alone 2 to get one thing)
Biscuits are made to have side clearance! This gives the biscuit the
opportunity to expand and not force the glue off of the sides.
For the most part, I think the problem is a humidity and age problem
rather than a poor mfg process even though since you had them, they've
been stored the same. But how about before? Also, perhaps the
Porter-cable ones are proprietary?
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
John,
Of all the biscuits I've used I've found the Pooter-Cobbles to be far below the
quality of Lamello and Freud. Your observation regarding their thickness is
similar to what I have found. Additionally, I've found them to be less
"refined" around the edges with more broken biscuits per 1000 package than any
of the others I've used.
I will say that I've not experienced problems with the P-C's to the same extent
you have. Perhaps it is because the humidity here is lower than where you're
located. Half the time I leave the lids off of the plastic pretzel barrels in
which I store them and they don't appear to have changed thickness.
I'll go along with Don regarding the Lamellos. They are a cut above anything
else I've tried. I've used literally thousands of Freuds and I get them for
$19.95 a thousand, so that's what I use . . . with no failures.
If you have a choice, you might want to turn your back on the P-Cs and say, "I
have sinned!" Then go on to the next batch of biscuits with absolute absolution
and a clear conscience.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:46 PM
To: cring at concentric.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
I don't work for Porter Cable, but I'm searching for what it is that is
wrong with their biscuits. I put glue on them. I put them in the slot I've
cut. I use my fingers to do this. I whack them with my oak mallet because
I'm paranoid. I let them dry. It works. I found a messed up biscuit in my
pretzel barrel. I still had more biscuits than they promised. I guess I
could be annoyed because they (PC) failed to outperform their promises as
much as I might have assumed they would. I can see that I am not pure
enough to be a really fair judge of their performance. Maybe they will
give me a free router?
Gary Cavener
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 4:59 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
John:
About the only brand that I can buy around here is Porter-Cable. I
buy them in boxes by the thousand. Since I use mostly poly glue, I wet
them before inserting them into the slot. The biscuits are snug but I do
not need a mallet to get them in the slot. The result are perfectly
aligned joints. They are doing their job. They seem to work well for
my applications. I do not use a biscuits as a replacement for a
dovetail joint, but have used them as a alternative for a mortise and
tenon joint
Many woodworking experts tell us that biscuits do not strengthen a
joint. We are told that a biscuit should only be used to aid in
alignment. This is a opinion that I do not fully embrace. If the
experts are correct, why would we bother to put glue into the slots?
If that were correct we this discussion would be moot. (perhaps it is)
I would be willing to bet that 99% of those who do not believe that a
biscuit strengthens a joint, still carefully spread glue in the slot.
Sometime ago I did some very unscientific tests. I glued up a few
joints but left a gap so the only glued surface was the biscuits and
slots. I needed a wrecking bar to break the joint. My conclusion is
that biscuits do add some strength and my joints were not glue starved.
Given the above, there is a question as what applications biscuits
should be used for. Should biscuits be used to replace dovetail joint?
I cannot believe that you can get the strength with a biscuits that you
can with a dovetail. Not only do dovetail joints have more glue surface
but they are mechanically stronger. I may be a little short sited here
as I use dovetails in almost everything that I build.
Should you use biscuits to replace a mortise and tenon joint? This
is probably, a more reasonable application for biscuits but you still
have less glue surface and it is doubtful in my mind that you have as
strong a joint Based on my observations and experience, I think that
pocket screws would be the better choice than a biscuit. The folks who
build the Kreig jig have some sort of lab report that says that
pocket screws are as good as a mortise and tenon. Not sure this meets
the logic test, but having used a few pocket hole joints for face
frames, I can attest that they are very strong.
Ken Martin
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> I know, everyone on the list hand cuts mortise and tenon joints any time
> they need to join wood.
>
> But theoretically speaking, do you find that the brand of biscuit used
> matters? Currently I have some Porter Cable #20s and some Freud #20s.
> Both have been stored in the same manner (plastic jar w/lid) for the past
> several months. The Porter Cable ones are distinctly thicker than the
> Freuds, and are hard to get into the slot cut by my Dewalt biscuit cutter.
> The Freuds slip in and out with just a touch of friction while the Porter
> Cables require a mallet to seat. With biscuits tight like that it is hard
> to keep from scrapping all the glue off during insertion.
>
> The Freuds also seem stronger when subjected to the break it with your hands
> test. Am I imagining things? Does it matter? Obviously for edge joining
> / aligning purposes it probably make very little difference, but for other
> applications the strength of the biscuit and the quality of the biscuit to
> main wood glue joints are important to overall strength.
>
> I know, I know, I should sell the whole lot and stick to hand cut dovetails
> and m/t joints ... but then I wouldn't enjoy watching Norm anymore :).
>
> John
From: Joe Farrell [burnie at erie.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:55 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
I have just bought a Dewalt and have the same problem with PC bisquits.
They are the only ones that that the store carried. The only thing was,
not all of the bisquits are tight, somw slip right in and some have to be
tapped in. I am going to use a different brand next.
Joe
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 12:05 PM
To: knm at widomaker.com; abacus at pdq.net
Cc: jthorner at garlic.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
Don Wrote:
>snip
>When I use glue, I'm a part of the 99%. And
there is also...why not? It couldn't hurt.
>snip
Actually, depending on your pace of work, it could hurt. The wood
surounding the biscuit can swell, because of the moisture in the glue. If
you sand, for instance, a tabletop, while this wood is still swolen with
moisture, when it dries you could see the shape of a biscuit in your top. I
believe the term is telegraphing.
Anyway, just a quick point. And, Don, you also said you don't use glue on
biscuits for tabletops, so you would never have this problem.
Furthering this thread, I too, using P.C. biscuits, have had tight and loose
biscuits. I had thought, up until following this thread, that the reason I
had certain biscuits loose, (and down right sloppy in some cases) in their
slot, was due to my "technique", or should I say "ability", to accurately
slide my plate joiner in and out of the wood. (I have the P.C. old style
joiner). Having sloppy biscuits holes did nothing for my respect for a
plate joiner, my thinking being "if I'm supposed to use this thing for
lining up two boards, how does a sloppy biscuit hole aid in this?" As such,
I haven't used it a whole lot.
Now, I guess I've give the lamello biscuits a try. Thanks everybody.
Todd Burch, Houston.
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 5:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
Todd:
Understand your point about "telegraphing" , but premature sanding
will cause the problem with the entire joint not just the biscuit slot.
As a matter of principle the biscuit works because it does swell when it
absorbs mositure. There must be not slop in the slot to assure
alignment. When useing a water base glue it absorbs water from the
glue, when using poly you must wet it. I use a lot of poly glue, simply
because I can glue up a panel and finish sand it a few hours later
without the worry of telegraphing.
Ken Martin
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 7:06 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
-----Original Message-----
From: Moose and Betty <moose at northrim.net>
>John, I suspect that the PC #20s may have been subjected to
>a dose of moisture at some time. It may have happened
>before you purchased them. They do not put the "Born
>on....." date on the label like Budweiser does. There is no
>way to tell how long they stood on the shelf in a damp
>warehouse before they arrived on the shelf in the store.
>Another thing to look at is the differences in the original
>packaging materials they came in.
>
I respect what you are saying, but in this case I don't think the
explanation holds.
1) I bought the PC biscuits from a high volume equipment/woodworking
dealer. they turn over their supplies stock pretty rapidly.
2) I bought the Freud biscuits at a local hardware store where they were
covered with dust.
3) The PC biscuits came packed in a screw top plastic jar. I added a small
packet of silca gel to the bottle.
4) The Freud biscuits came in an unsealed plastic bag.
5) I poured the Freud biscuits into the jar which was at that time 1/2 full
of PC biscuits and resealed it, that was about six weeks ago.
>From these facts and my direct observations of the biscuits themselves, I'm
convinced that Freud sells a higher quality biscuit than does PC.
John
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 9:08 AM
To: Bill Brady
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; tburch at cdbsoftware.com; knm at widomaker.com; jthorner at garlic.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
Hi Bill, I guess the question I have is: In what way is a biscuits
superior to a spline?
Bill Neely
Bill Brady wrote:
> Getting back to the question of brands: I only buy biscuits in a
> hermetically sealed package. They work by absorbing moisture, if it gets
> to them early, they are no better than a spline.
>
> Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who is getting ready for winter... Brrrr
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 7:06 AM
To: Bill Neely; Bill Brady
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; tburch at cdbsoftware.com; knm at widomaker.com; jthorner at garlic.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. Porter Cable Biscuits?
Bill Neely Wrote:
>Hi Bill, I guess the question I have is: In what way is a biscuits
>superior to a spline?
Biscuits provide a way of jointing wood without running into the cross
grain problem*. The biscuits have random grain, splines do not.
I believe that biscuits are also superior to mortise and tendon joints
for this reason.
*The differential expansion and contraction of wood being much greater
across the grain than with it. A joint constructed with grain at 90
degree angles will be repeatedly stressed. Eventually the joint fails.
Hope this helps.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who is getting ready for winter... Brrrr
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 3:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Freud vs. whatever and some blathering of my very own
Fellow List Members,
Some time back (June 6, 1998), I posted the stuff below. Since we're sort of
leading into various threads about biscuits and gravy from the original thread
regarding P-C and Freud biscuits, I figured I'd venture forth again. If you
have no interest in this stuff, just hit the delete thingy, but I'd appreciate
your indulgence because I'm 58 years old and none of my family pays any heed to
anything I say! (grin)
Continue Blather Here:
Gentle Persons,
I have seen on this listserv and on other forums; statements or opinions
which say, "biscuits are designed for alignment purposes only" (or
words to that effect).
This argument no longer comes as a surprise to me, but I am sure that
those who are not on the internet or WWW and who have used plate joinery
in an array of joints would find the statement misleading and erroneous,
just as I do.
To start with, I don't know what Grandpa Herman Steiner was thinking
when he invented the machine which cuts slots (think of the slots as
mortises) in which his little lamelles (translated from the German as
thin plates, but you can think of them as detached tenons ) were to be
inserted and secured with adhesive. Whether Grandpop Steiner first used
them to assemble a tabletop for alignment or to secure and add strength
to a butt, miter or other joint, I haven't been able to find out. What
I have found out after a fair amount of near "scientific
experimentation", countless shop experiments and the making of
residential doors, garden gates, shutters, bookcases, entertainment
centers and other products is that plate joinery "done right" can be
used in applications where regular mortise and tenon joinery and other
similar joinery methods would or could be utilized (sorry about the mile
long sentence).
I have a friend who make chairs and benches using biscuit joinery with
nary a mortise and tenon joint to be found in the pieces and I have read
of others who claim to do the same with success (check out the back
issues of Fine Woodworking). Would I try this method on my chairs or
benches? The short answer for now is no. Before I would try their
methods, I would want to assemble my own prototype and abuse the hell
out of it. That said, I regularly have the opportunity to examine my
friend's products and they are still "sitting and setting" strong with
no discernible joint deterioration.
Although, I conduct classes on plate joinery, write about it, experiment
with various plate joinery methods and have used thousands of biscuits
in the assembly of my products, I still don't know everything there is
to know about the little argument causing devils. I just know they are
good for more than "alignment" purposes.
I have posted the URLs for some of my musings on plate joinery to this
listserv on other occasions. For those of you who may be weary (and
wary) of my doing so, I apologize for doing it again:
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GazetteArchive/abstractintro.html Abstract
of experiments conducted at Sandia National Laboratories
ftp://theoak.com/pub/textetc/index.html More observations on
Polyurethane adhesives and plate joinery
http://www.theoak.com/chuck/prev/apr97.html
http://www.theoak.com/chuck/prev/may97.html
http://www.theoak.com/chuck/
Three articles on the basics of plate joinery
Thanks for the time and bandwidth!
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
End Blather Here!
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 7:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Freud vs. whatever and some blathering of my very own
Hi, Chuck:
The one thing I remember from those FWW articles, other than the
obvious bias of the one guy who did some testing, was that when a
biscuit joint _did_ fail, it was suddenly and totally, rather than
gradually loosening and opening before failure like a mortise and
tenon. I always kind of felt that this would more or less preclude
using them in chair construction, at least at the major load bearing
points.
A small point.
Bob Hamilton
P.S.: The article I am referring to with the bias is NOT the one you
did about your testing at Sandia Laboratories. It was another one
where the data from the chart clearly indicated that the biscuit joint
was the strongest of the joints tested, but the guy doing the testing
claimed that this was only because the end grain to long grain butt
joint contributed some extra strength or some such nonsense.
From: David L Dahl [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 4:28 PM
To: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: Frustrated
Folks:
I needed to quit working the wood yesterday. No, no serious injury. Just
p**(*&'d off.
Working on one of those "Saturday" projects, a simple quilt hanger I'd
mentioned earlier. Two boards sandwiching a quilt edge using wood screws to
hold both parts together. Simple. Find the wood, cut to size, etc. Drill
holes for screws, cut screws and size, sink into "bold heads" and viola!
All ready to stain/seal/varnish or whatever.
Almost.
Ever wonder about how easy everything looks when (insert Norm/Furniture
Guys/Dean&Robin/Your Favorite TV Person) does something? Something simple,
like measuring placement for three holes, drill 'em with the ol' Forstner,
and you're done? Why can't these things work this way for me?
I measured, marked, and double-checked. Went to the drill press, popped in
the bit. Secured using each of the 3 holes for the wrench. Drilled.
Checked.
One hole, 1/2" too far south.
Ouch!
Now, I don't figure myself a novice. No pro, either, but I've been doing
this long enough to know how to drill a hole or cut a board square. Except,
for the life of me, I can't.
What gives?
Anyone else have days like this?
David Dahl
Staying out of the shop for a bit in Appleton WI
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 6:22 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Yep...shore have, the culprit is your basic brain fart.
I'm not saying this is your dilemma but my Grandfather used to say, "ya
know, Joey (I was called that once), the hurrier you go, the behinder you
get."
He had all kinds of neat little sayings like that, which meant nothing to
me then. Strange (or is it?) how all of them have become rather important
(and rather true) to me over the years.
Do like I do, dwell on the days where everything goes right and vaguely
remember those that don't.
Joe
Curiosity killed the cat...alright, for a while there I was a suspect
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 6:16 PM
To: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Sure, I've had days like that. For me it is always a clear signal to do
something else for a little while.
Most of my frustrating &)**(&) experiences have come in the finishing
stages, but then there was the 1/8" too big 150 lb entertainment center.
Don't ask, I'm not telling how I fixed that one :( .... but the first step
was to walk away from it for two days.
Then there was the set of stair stringers into which I had $90 worth of
materials and many hours of cutting notches ... but they were wrong
&)(*&)*&.
Take a break!
John
From: scott white [swhite at cimedia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Frustrated
>Ever wonder about how easy everything looks when (insert Norm/Furniture
>Guys/Dean&Robin/Your Favorite TV Person) does something?
What gets to me is when Norm assembles parts for the first time, they fit
perfectly & he says, "thaaat's good."
More interesting to me at my level would be seeing how he copes when
something DOESN'T fit well.
Scott
Austin, TX
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:55 AM
To: scott white; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Frustrated
Scott,
It probably sounds something like s**t! As long and as often as he's been
doing this, I would guess that things normally fit. I work up to a fit,
shaving a bit at a time, whenever possible. Norm probably does too, but
that ain't on the video.
Gary Cavener
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 6:07 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Fuming Oak --- In Stickley's Own Words LONG
First, before the copyright policy have a panic attack, The copyright
period on Gustav Stickley's writings which I am about to tediously type into
this email have expired. Thus these words are now in the public domain.
With all of the discussion about fuming lately, this seems a very timely bit
of commentary from the man who pretty much created what we now call the
Mission Style, though he called it Craftsman furniture, and of course it
owes a large debt to others as well.
These words originally appeared in "The Craftsman" Volume 9.
" .... it should be understood that our methods of finishing are for the
purpose of getting the best possible results from the wood itself as well as
the most pleasing effect in completing the color scheme of a room, and never
for the purpose of imitating a more costly wood in the finish of a cheaper
one. The beauty of each wood is peculiarly its own, and the sole aim of our
finishing is to show that beauty to the best advantage.
That a clearer understanding may be given of the effects we try to
obtain with the finishes to be described later, it seems best first to
explain the method in ordinary use of furniture and other woodworking
establishments, where naturally the effort is made to get the most showy and
commercially finished results from the least possible expenditure of time
and material. In such cases the wood is first "filled" with prepared wood
filler made from a very finely ground silex. When this preparation is
carefully rubbed into the pores, the surface of the wood becomes as smooth
and even as glass. After the filler has become thoroughly dry, the wood is
varnished and rubbed, and either polished to a mirror-like brilliancy or
left "in the dull". This destroys the texture by covering it with an enamel
that completely alters its character. Whether dull or polished, the
woodiness of texture that is so interesting has given place to an artificial
smoothness of surface that passes for fineness of finish and that makes all
wood alike to the touch.
it is easy to finish wood in this way and yet leave it natural in
color, if desired, for the filler made from silex is colorless. IF a darker
or different color is required, the pigment is usually mixed with the
filler. This gives a finish in which the figure of the wood is made very
prominent, for the reason that, when the color is carried on in that way,
the pigment does not penetrate the glassy surface of the pith ray or figure,
and is rubbed off by the same operation that rubs it into the softer parts
of the wood. This effect is much sought after in showy furniture, where a
highly emphasized figure is considered very desirable, but it is just what
we seek most earnestly to avoid, as the figure in the woods mentioned above
is already so strong that it needs to be subdued by an even tone rather than
heightened by a marked contrast.
Of the woods in the class we are discussing now, oak and chestnut are
the only ones affected by the fumes of ammonia. As was discovered some
years ago by the use of oaken beams and paneling in the woodwork of fine
stables, the effect of ammonia on this wood is to produce quickly the mellow
darkness of hue that formerly was supposed to come from age alone. Careful
experiment showed that this effect resulted from a certain affinity between
the tannic acid in the wood and the ammonia with which the air was heavily
charged, and that the same result could be artificially produced by
subjecting to the fumes of strong ammonia any wood which contained a
sufficient percentage of tannin. This process is the only one known that
acts upon the glassy pith rays as well as the softer parts of the wood,
coloring all together in an even tone so that the figure is marked only by
its difference in texture. This result can not be accomplished by stains,
and for this reason we always subject these woods to more or less fuming
before applying a stain.
In fuming woods the best results are obtained by shutting the piece
into an air-tight box or closet, on the floor of which has been placed a
shallow dish containing liquor ammonia (26 per cent). The length of time
required to fume to a good color depends largely upon the tightness of the
compartment, but as a rule forty-eight hours in enough. Where fuming is not
practicable, as in the case of a piece too large for any available
compartment, or of the trim of a room, a satisfactory results can be
obtained by applying liquor ammonia (26 per cent) direct to the wood with a
sponge or brush. In either case, the wood must be in its natural condition
when treated, as any previous application of oil or stain would prevent the
ammonia from taking effect.
After the wood is thoroughly dry from the first application, sanding is
done carefully with fine sandpaper, then apply another coat of ammonia and
sandpaper as before.
Some pieces fume much darker than others, according to the amount of
tannin left free to attract the ammonia after the wood has been kiln-dried.
Where any sapwood had been left on, that part will be found unaffected by
the fumes."
{Stickley goes into the method of making a touch up stain using Japan
Vandyke brown, German lacquer and Japan lampblack. Now, back to the
quotes.}
" After fuming, sandpapering and touching up a piece of furniture, apply
a coat of lacquer made of one-third white shellac and two-thirds German
lacquer. If the fuming process has resulted in a shade dark enough to be
satisfactory, this lacquer may be applied clear, if not, it may be darkened
by the addition of a small quantity of the stain used in touching up. Care
must be taken, however, not to add enough color to show laps and brushmarks.
The danger of this makes it often more advisable to apply two coats of
lacquer, each containing a very little color. If this is done, sandpaper
each coat with very fine sandpaper after it is thoroughly dry, and then
apply one or more coats of prepared floor wax. These directions, if
carefully followed, should give the same effects that characterize the
Craftsman furniture.
Sometimes it is not deemed practicable or desirable to fume oak or
chestnut. In such a case finish may be used for which directions will be
given, and which applies to all woods in this class. For these woods a
water stain should never be used, as it raises the grain to such an extent
that in sandpapering to make it smooth again the color is sanded off with
the grain, leaving an unevenly stained and very unpleasant surface. The
most satisfactory method we know, especially for workers who have had but
little experience, is to use quick-drying colors (colors ground in Japan)
mixed with German lacquer. Both can be obtained at almost any paint shop.
After getting the desired shade of the color chosen, apply as quickly as
possible, as it dries very rapidly. It is best to cover a small portion of
the surface at a time, and then go over it with a soft, dry cloth to "even
it up" before it dries. When it is ready for the final finish, apply a coat
of white shellac, sandpaper carefully and apply one or more coats of wax.
..... "
That pretty well covers most of the point of discussion. Where are the
Stickleys amongst today batch of magazine writers?
JohnFrom: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 8:47 AM
To: remmel at flash.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: FW: Air Compressors
I have recently acquired a large compressor with a 85 gal tank. I have a
air shut off valve which I turn off at the end of the day. I purge the
water once a week, but always leave the tank fully pressurized. I do
shut off the electrical circuit at the end of the day. With the air shut
off valve I lose no air. Bottom line is shut off the air, disconnect
the electrical, but don't fully drain the tank. In my case 85 gallons of
air compress to 170 cost money so I save it. I see no reason to fully
drain your tank each time you use the compressor, but it is a good idea
to drain off the collected water.
Ken Martin
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:57:28 -0500 "Richard Emmel" <remmel at flash.net>
writes:
>Thought it best to forward this message sent directly to me. It gives
>excellent advise. Thank you , Dan.
>
>Regards,
>
>Richard Emmel
>24404 Knabe Lane
>Little Rock, AR 72210
>remmel at flash.net
>remmel at flash.net/~remmel
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DMc89916 at aol.com [mailto:DMc89916 at aol.com]
>Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 1:35 AM
>To: remmel at flash.net
>Subject: Re: Air Compressors
>
>
>Richard:
>
>I use my compressor everytime I'm in my shop and that's most everyday.
> As
>long as I am working, I leave it on auto. But when I leave or finish,
>I
>turn
>it off. Otherwise it will kick on every so often. One time, while I
>was
>out
>of the shop, a hose burst (when it was on auto) and that made it run
>continuely. Fortunately I was close by in the yard and was able to
>turn it
>off. If I had been away from home, I probably would have burned up
>the
>motor
>and posiblly started a fire. I always turn it off when I am not in
>the
>shop.
>It only takes a minute or two to build up pressure.
>
>Dan McMahon
>San Antonio, Texas
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 11:07 AM
To: knm1 at juno.com
Cc: remmel at flash.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: FW: Air Compressors
Ken handles it pretty much the way I do. I too have a large tank, but
since I have shut off valves in front of each regulator in each area,
those are the only ones I shut off. ie. The tank and all lines are fully
charged all the time. I do however drain off the condensation daily and
sometimes even cut the power, but especially on week ends in case of
Vandalism or Fire even though the compressor is in a fire safe seperate
room. (Vandalism and Fires don't occur on weekdays) I bought a automatic
drain (WW Grainger) which worked exceptionally well for the 2 weeks
before it broke (nothing but the best for me). That was almost a year
ago. One day I'll exchange it.
I do feel that with intermitent use it would be wise to kill the power.
As Ken said, drain the condensate after each days use.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Do I buy new or used?
R.J.
I'm sure you're going to love that Jet. Woodworker's Supply in Albuquerque has
some on display and they really appear extremely well made. If I didn't have my
PM 66 and was looking for a new saw I'd sure consider it and likely buy it.
Let us know how you like it, but throw a towel over it before you get "drool"
all over it.
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:10 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: FW: How to mount a face vise?
Rich,
...Flush with the bench's surface, pop up dog or not on the vise's
outside. It sounds like you got yourself a great vise.
F.
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:41 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: FW: How to mount a face vise?
You could attach a thick wood face to the iron face and mortis dog holes
into that.
-Rick McQuay
--
>Rich Duzenbury wrote:
This vise does not have a protrustion that can be employed to grip an object
between it and a bench dog.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:13 PM
To: Rich Duzenbury
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: FW: How to mount a face vise?
If you can, the top of the clamping surface of the vise
should be level with the top of the bench. If it were
higher it would interfere with work on the bench, if it were
lower it might not hold some material high enough to clear
the top of the bench when planing, routing edges, etc.
Another matter is that it should be mounted so that it's
right or left edge should be in line with the edge of the
bench so that a peice can be clamped that is to be sawn off.
How do I know this? By mounting a clamp wrong in both
respects and _then_ reading about these details in a book.
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:26 AM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: RE: FW: How to mount a face vise?
Thanks, Bruce, and all others who have responded. Now you know why I asked before I drilled any holes in my (um) 2x4 & plywood bench. Honest, it was in the garage before we bought the place.
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:35 AM
To: Rich Duzenbury
Cc: Bruce Gowens; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: FW: How to mount a face vise?
Rich and all,
I would like to throw in my two cents worth here. If you have a bench that you might want to resurface from time to time, I would recommend placing the top of the vise slightly lower than the top
of the bench (maybe 1/4" or less). This would allow for some stock removal if/when you resurface. In order to compensate for this lower position of the vise, put some wooden pads on the jaws of
the vise that would actually reach the top of the bench, and could be resurfaced at the same time as the bench.
Zane Harris
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 1998 7:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Gate Hardware
Hi All;
Last evening on WGBH we saw Norm making an arched gateway (no Norm
bashing) and he used some interesting hardware. He mentioned the
manufacturers name (a company in England) but his Bostonian accent made
it difficult to understand.
Anyone know who it is and where they are?
Thanks
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
From: the self proclaimed Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 5:36 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Gate Hardware
>Hi All;
>Last evening on WGBH we saw Norm making an arched gateway (no Norm
>bashing) and he used some interesting hardware. He mentioned the
>manufacturers name (a company in England) but his Bostonian accent made
>it difficult to understand.
>Anyone know who it is and where they are?
>Thanks
>Graham
This Old House magazine "may" have a ad for this particular
advertiser.
Check this link for a few gate related suppliers.
http://207.237.112.219/cgi-bin/search.pl
These look particularly good.
http://www.discountfence.com/Wood%20hardware/wood_hardwareindex.htm
http://www.buildhardware.com/
Pop off some e-mails to these suppliers.
http://www.antiquehardware.com/
http://www.sni.net/ragtime/M/WH.html
http://www.ballandball-us.com/
http://www.brassworks-sbh.com/
http://www.kcyb.com/worldlink/colonial.htm
http://www.planetantiques.com/branches/styles.html
http://www.teleport.com:80/~hippo1/index.shtml
http://www.horton-brasses.com/
http://www.kennedyhardware.com/index.html
http://www.laforge.com/
http://www.magi.com/~classic/
http://www.alcasoft.com/rufkahr/index.html
http://www.phoenixlock.com/
http://www.vandykes.com/
Keith Bohn
From: Paul W. Abelquist (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: GFCI correction
Hi Everyone,
Sorry about that. I added an extra letter to the word electrical. Try it
again.
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/electrical-wiring/part1/
faq.html
Paul W. Abelquist
Rocky Point, LI, NY
PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: Paul W. Abelquist (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: GFCI info
Hi Everyone,
I have been reading all the comments regarding GFCI and I think a peek at
the following site is in order.
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/elecrtrical-wiring/part1
/faq.html
Paul W. Abelquist
Rocky Point, LI, NY
PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: Bob W. Anderson [bobdove at pipeline.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 4:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: good guys and others
WWs:
I bought a Bosch 12v cordless drill, *reconditioned*, from S & B (for
Skill & Bosch) Tools in St.Paul about four years ago. It served me
well until this spring when it regularly failed to hold the high speed
setting. I finally got around to taking it back for repair today.
The guy quickly said "No problem" and removed the chuck and battery.
He then attached them to another (newly rebuilt - looks brand new)
drill body and said "No charge."
I felt so grateful that I said thanks and then bought a small trim
router for $72 (about 55% of going street price.) I own a fair
number of tools from a wide bunch of manufacturers, a few of them
being the reconditioned Bosch ones from S & B. (2 routers, 1/2"
hammer drill; 3/8" 12v drill; 10" SCMS.) No problems until the drill
high speed failure. Prices I've paid average about 60% of street.
No complaints about the products, and certainly none about S & B, (at
least not here in St.Paul.)
OTOH, I was forced to go to Sears last weekend for a 12mm hex wrench.
They were out of the long model so I settled for the short one.
Checkout charged me for the long one! Lost the reasoned argument.
Had I not exhausted other choices before going to Sears, I would have
walked out empty-handed. Instead, I left with the wrench in my
grip, mumbling curses (almost) under my breath. Over the years, the
(few) times I have dealt with Sears, it seems that their store
policies are so rigid that sales persons have literally no latitude
for reasonable response to a "non-normal" situation. I remember
asking a counter person selling me some popcorn, "How come you have to
hand-enter 17 digits just to sell me a bag of popcorn?" "Store
policy" she said, unsmiling.
Bob W. Anderson
Newport, MN
From: Julie Graf [jgraf at cimedia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 12:51 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: good outside wood
I'd like to make a bench, chair, and "endtable" for my exposed patio -
my Question:
What seems to be the best wood for the outdoors?
My definition of Best: Good, longlasting, but not a fortune
I live in Pittsburgh - so it'd be out in rain, sun, just about
everything.
Thanks
Julie
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:13 PM
To: Julie Graf; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: good outside wood
The two choices I recommend are Western red cedar or
Redwood. Other choices include Cypress, Southern Yellow
Pine, and of course Teak, all of which are a bit higher in
price.
I have also had good results with a product called Osmose
Sunwood. This is a pressure treated wood. They have a web
site at: http://www.osmose.com/sunwood/sunwood.html
10Q,
Moose
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:14 PM
To: Julie Graf
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: good outside wood
The two choices I recommend are Western red cedar or
Redwood. Other choices include Cypress, Southern Yellow
Pine, and of course Teak, all of which are a bit higher in
price.
I have also had good results with a product called Osmose
Sunwood. This is a pressure treated wood. They have a web
site at: http://www.osmose.com/sunwood/sunwood.html
10Q,
Moose
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 5:33 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: good outside wood
Julie Graf wrote:
>
> I'd like to make a bench, chair, and "endtable" for my exposed patio -
> my Question:
> What seems to be the best wood for the outdoors?
> My definition of Best: Good, longlasting, but not a fortune
>
> I live in Pittsburgh - so it'd be out in rain, sun, just about
> everything.
>
You got good advice from Moose. I'd add white oak to the list. I've
seen 50 year old outdoor pieces in fine condition. A word of caution -
be sure you're buying white oak. Red oak is more commonly available,
and not nearly as good for outdoor use.
Another alternative is plain old pressure treated wood, which is mostly
yellow pine. My deck has a table, several benches, two large planters
and other accessories built of this wood, and they look like new after 7
years. Some folks worry about leaching of toxic chemicals, but I don't
share that concern. Most of the playground equipment at schools and
public parks is built of the same material.
If I started today, I'd probably use western red cedar. I just did this
summer, on a deck project for my daughter. The cost is higher than PT
wood, but the wood has great natural beauty and excellent environmental
resistance. Whatever you choose, best of luck with your projects.
Gerald
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 6:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: good outside wood
Julie,
(Making up for lost times!)
The species given in the list below are those identified as having "good
decay resistance". Of course, you should not consider woods like Lignum
vitae or Teak as they are really to expensive and not really appropriate for
the type of project you are involved in.
Baldcypress
Cedar, Eastern White
Cedar, Yellow
Cedar, Western Red
Chestnut
Locust, Black
Oak, White
Redwood
Walnut
Port-Orford-Cedar
Cedar, Eastern red
Lignum Vitae
Teak
Be sure you consider the right species. What I mean is... the properties of
White Oak, for example, are quite different from those of Red Oak.
Hope that helps,
Michel
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 6:58 PM
To: Michel Garceau
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: good outside wood
Michel Garceau wrote:
>
> > Some folks worry about leaching of toxic chemicals, but I don't
> >share that concern.
> If you are, you can always put a coat of varnish over the pressure treated
> wood, provided of course it had a chance to dry a bit.
>
> What I don't like about pressure treated wood is its color.
>
> Michel
Which color don't you like? The Tan or the Green? And oh, when the Green
is sanded it's almost Yellow. When the Yellow is exposed to weather it
turns a virtual natural Pine...but a little darker.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim Lunden [jlunden at sma-promail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 8:29 AM
To: 'Julie Graf'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: good outside wood
Julie:
I just completed a deck full of mahogany furniture. I have left it
untreated and have enjoyed watching it turn into a very weathered
looking gray color.
Mahogany is a pleasure to work with and I expect the furniture to be
passed down through the generations. Check out the beautiful mahogany
boats from the 1920's.
I am an amateur and it takes me a long time to build anything. I figure
that the extra cost of mahogany will be amortized in its greater beauty
and long life.
Jim Lunden
Avon,CT
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Grandfather Clock
Hi all,
I've built a number of fine furniture pieces that will outlive me, but
now I'm ready to build one that my granddaughter's granddaughter will
regard as fine furniture. I've gone my whole woodworking life without
building a grandfather's clock, but now I'm ready to build one. I
regard this as a rite of passage to being a fine woodworker, which is
influenced by my 80 year old neighbor, who built his first at age 21
using only hand tools. That one, and a second he built 20 years ago,
will last through the centuries.
I understand a bit about clock movements, and know that top quality ones
run from $1,000 to $1,500. I'm prepared to pay the price for something
I can't build myself. What I'm looking for is a worthy case to house
the movement. I've just ordered catalogs from Emperor and Klockit. Are
there other catalog sources or plans that I should know of for top
quality grandfather clocks? I would be very interested in comments from
other list members who have built a grandfather clock. Regards,
Gerald
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 5:06 AM
To: gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Grandfather Clock
Gerald,
American Woodworker ,several years back,had one I always wanted to
build but never had time.It is a Penn. Dutch clock with scrolled top.
I still have the issues and will forward the article if you would like
it.Let me know.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 3:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Grandfather Clock
Gerald wrote:
>Are there other catalog sources or plans that I should know of for top
>quality grandfather clocks?
Gerald, how much time do you have? (a huge groan comes up from the
crowd) No really! Check out these links and let me know when you
come back up for air.
http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/index.htm
http://www.bhi.co.uk/index.html
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/
http://www.kuempelchimeclock.com/
http://www.nationalartcraft.com/clock.htm
http://www.slarose.com/
http://www.weems-plath.com/html/clocks.html
Keith Bohn
From: Richard Emmel [remmel at flash.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:40 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: grandfather clock spring
Does anyone on the list have a source for a grandfather clock spring. I'm
talking about the spring steel part the pendulum attaches to. I've tried the
clock catalogs from woodworking mags but they just have kits. I need a
catalog for clock parts.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:21 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Richard Emmel
Subject: Re: grandfather clock spring
Richard Emmel wrote:
>
> Does anyone on the list have a source for a grandfather clock spring. I'm
> talking about the spring steel part the pendulum attaches to. I've tried the
> clock catalogs from woodworking mags but they just have kits. I need a
> catalog for clock parts.
I learned of this source only today, and 10 minutes ago I ordered their
master catalog on line for $2.50. They will surely have what you need.
They have a secure section at their web site where you can order the
master catalog with your credit card. Sale catalogs are free, but might
not have what you're looking for.
S. LaRose, Inc.
3223 Yanceyville St
P.O. Box 21208
Greensboro, NC 27420
Web: http://www.slarose.com
e-mail: slarose at worldnet.att.net
Info phone: (336) 621-1936
Order phone: 1-888-752-7673
Fax phone: 1-800-537-4513
These guys are pros, and even their sale catalog (which I have) offers
many mainsprings and suspension springs, as well as specialized gear
repair fixtures etc. As an aside, they also sell movements for
grandfather clocks and others, and the best Hermle movement that I
currently favor is $300 less at LaRose than the identical movement
offered by Emperor. I get all of the common clock catalogs, but this
place is different. I will probably buy my grandfather clock movement
from them.
I found this source by talking to my old neighbor, who has built two
grandfather clocks and swears by this company. He is a retired
professional buyer, and about the hardest man in the world to please.
If he likes them, I like them. Best of luck.
Gerald
From: Ron Winger [rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:21 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: grandfather clock spring
Try http://www.slarose.com
Regards,
Ron Winger
At 08:39 PM 10/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone on the list have a source for a grandfather clock spring. I'm
>talking about the spring steel part the pendulum attaches to. I've tried the
>clock catalogs from woodworking mags but they just have kits. I need a
>catalog for clock parts.
>
From: Marc & Linda Tovar [mltovar at ntr.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 2:15 AM
To: Richard Emmel
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: grandfather clock spring
Try:
Timesavers
Box 12700
Scottsdale, AZ 85267
1-800-552-1520
Email is clocks at timesavers.com
http://www.timesavers.com
Regards
Marc Tovar
Layton, UT
Richard Emmel wrote:
> Does anyone on the list have a source for a grandfather clock spring. I'm
> talking about the spring steel part the pendulum attaches to. I've tried the
> clock catalogs from woodworking mags but they just have kits. I need a
> catalog for clock parts.
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:41 PM
To: email
Subject: great plane
I went to the new Woodworking Shop located in Hickory, NC these folks are
the Klingspore folks and have three stores, all in NC. they have
excellent stocks and specialize in sanding and turning. It is an great
store to browse and drool. One Way and Genreal lathes, Delta hobby and
industrial, good prices too.
Someone at the shop in Hickory ordered a bunch of Primus (E.C.E) hand
planes. Guess they did not realize there are not alot of us galoots in
one place. Now they are discounting these planes. The joiner plane with
lignum vitae sole listed from Garrett-Wade for $199 is 125! I have this
plane and even though I have a power joiner and a #7 Stanley, it is my
favorite! A beautiful tool that I paid nearly twice that price several
years ago. they also have some jack planes and smooth planes. I bought
another smooth plane myself for 89 bucks.
If you are interested in the best planes made today (maybe ever) you may
want to give these folks a call. the number is 828-326-9663.
From: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: green tint on oak
Water soluable dye will react to Red Oak leaving a green tint. I have been
told that adding a food coloring will solve that problem. Has anyone had
experience with this matter and how did you solve it?
Thanks.
Don Bentz in Fresno
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:48 AM
To: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: green tint on oak
Don,
I don't think you are understanding color very well or you didn't give
enough information.
Powdered water soluble dyes, which are usually Aniline dyes, come in
various formulas each differing somewhat from mfr to mfr. The
differences usually are "what" goes into the powder to make the color.
I'm going to assume that you purchased a dye which had the name of "Oak"
somewhere in it. Oak of course is not a color. It is someones idea of
what color a wood could be if the dye were applied. Thus, putting "Oak"
on Walnut would not produce the same color as applying it to Birch. Most
"Dk. Oak" dyes or stains for that matter are Van Dyke Brown. Van Dyke
contains Black and Green in varying amounts...again, each mfr. has their
own version of how much to use of this or that. I think that is what you
are seeing. It's very probable, using a different mfr. will get you more
or less green. A "RED" dye is used to correct or neutralize Green. Be
careful...a little red makes a big difference in a hurry.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:04 AM
To: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: green tint on oak
I have used waterborne dyes exclusively for 5 or 6 years now and have
never seen this problem.It could be caused possibly from using water
with alot of iron in it not actually from the dye.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Richard Emmel [remmel at flash.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:00 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Grizzly
The Grizzly company replaced the plastic knob and toolrest on my 14inch
lathe. The knobs are still plastic but I'll be a little easier on it and
perhaps I just got a weak one. Now I'm considering a dedicated mortise
machine. Seems like there is a lot of mortise and tenon work and from what I
can tell you best buy a dedicated machine.
Should a novice, new woodie even consider shelling out $250-$350 for a
mortise machine? Or should you mortise by hand when you do less that 25/yr?
I'm so impressed with Grizzly's handling of my lathe problem, I want to buy
from them again. Also, generally there products seem to give more bang for
the buck. The other choice would be Delta but Multitool now has a $260
machine. Comments would be appreciated.
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:33 PM
To: Richard Emmel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Grizzly
Richard:
There are a number of ways to go in mortising. If you have a drill
press you can get a mortising attachment. You can do them by hand. They
are not hard to do, assuming you have a good chisel. Third you can use
a router with a simple homemade jig.
I have the Multico and it is a super machine, however a dedicated
mortising machine would be low on my list if my tool inventory was
limited.
The approach that I would take if I were just starting, would be to
invest in tools that are capable of multiple tasks. As a example, a
router can be used in a wide variety of tasks, such a creating molding,
dadoing, joinery, and so on. Obviously, a router would be more useful
than a dedicated motiser if you had neither. If your tool inventory is
to the point that dedicated machines make sense, then go ahead. If not
them you may want to invest in the tools that will give you the most
capability.
Hope this helps.
Ken Martin
From: Coastwood at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 9:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Gun Cabinet
Anyone have experience in making custom gun cabinets? I am a rank beginner
but have been asked to do an octagon shaped, twelve gun revolving stand,
storage below and glass sides. I would greatly appreciate any plans or
advice! The request is from a family member so the pressure is reduced.
TIA
Michael
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 3:34 PM
To: Coastwood at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Gun Cabinet
I've done alot of gun cabinets and this one does not sound like a
project for a beginner.I would also think twice before working for
family.You may think the pressure is reduced now.A paying customer can
go away.Family doesn't.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
Coastwood at aol.com wrote:
>
> Anyone have experience in making custom gun cabinets? I am a rank beginner
> but have been asked to do an octagon shaped, twelve gun revolving stand,
> storage below and glass sides. I would greatly appreciate any plans or
> advice! The request is from a family member so the pressure is reduced.
>
> TIA
>
> Michael
From: mjr at inconcert.com on behalf of Michael J. Register [mjr at inconcert.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:39 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Mike Register; Bill Yarborough
Subject: hand plane help NEEDED
I'm destroying my butcher block counter top trying to
plane the top flat. Here is the details. I started with
a Stanley jack plane that I tuned myself... the sole
is flat, the iron is nice and shinny... the chip breaker
is smooth... I sharpened the iron with diamond
stone the only thing I didn't do was to put the
micro bevel on the plane iron. I set the jack so I
could see a black line protruding from the sole
for iron depth. I also didn't lube my sole ie:
no wax or linseed oil before use. I started planing
my top (which is end grain glued together in different
directions) and it was tearing out chunks where the
grain gets funky. The way I was planing did a get
job on everywhere else except the figured areas.
Do I need to reposition my frog to have a smaller
mouth? Do I need to shim the back of the frog
to change the angle of the iron? Do I use a number
4 instead of the jack? The top doesn't major
planing just some odds and ends lips need to
be knocked down.
Any and all help is greatly appreciated!!!!!
-MIke
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:27 AM
To: Michael J. Register; woodworking at theoak.com; Bill Yarborough
Subject: Re: hand plane help NEEDED
Howdy Mike
Personally, I wouldn't even try it with a plane. I'd use a belt sander to
about 180 grit followed up with a hand/cabinet scraper or. ROS wet sanded to
maybe 400.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 7:31 AM
To: Mike G.; Michael J. Register; woodworking at theoak.com; Bill Yarborough
Subject: RE: hand plane help NEEDED
Mike,
You're looking at a perfect excuse to go out and pick up a Lie-Nielsen low
angle jack! Opportunities like this don't come every day. Early Christmas
present for yourself? It needs to be "Scary Sharp".
Gary Cavener
From: Michael J. Register [Development Contractor] [mjr at Rosebud.XAIT.Xerox.COM]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:03 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: hand plane help NEEDED
Gary,
I have 2 Jacks right now a record and an older stanely.
I was looking in a mag at the low angle jack and I'm
wondering what else can I use it for. I was going to
spent 200 odd dollars either on the new porter cable
belt sander (4X24) or the low angle.
What is the sequence that I would use if I bought
the low angle... Do I only use this pane or plane
and sand or plan with a series?
-Mike
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 7:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: hand plane help NEEDED
Hi, Mike:
I am no expert, but other than narrowing down the mouth opening, you
might try reducing your depth of cut and/or increasing the angle that
you skew the plane to the direction of travel. This reduces the width
of cut you get on each pass, but lets the blade make more of a slicing
cut that should reduce tearout.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:14 AM
To: Pianoman; Michael J. Register; woodworking at theoak.com; Bill Yarborough
Subject: RE: hand plane help NEEDED
David,
If my memory is correct, the 9 1/2 at 20 degrees is not a low angle plane.
The closest thing to it in a low angle block plane is probably the 60 1/2 at
12 degrees. A butcher block looks like an awfully big job for a little
bitty block plane. A labor of love.
Gary Cavener
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:12 AM
To: Michael J. Register; woodworking at theoak.com; Bill Yarborough
Subject: Re: hand plane help NEEDED
Mike:
I've been there - with both Cherry and Maple. Low angle planes are one
answer - I used my Stanely 9 1/2, tuned well and sharp. First, however, I
did something I hate doing - I used my belt sander. On another project,
which I glued up better, I used my ROS to do the initial smoothing, and then
the low angle plane. Used a scraper to finish the process. Maple and Cherry
are tough to plane, I've found that no matter how hard I try to get the
grain to go in one direction, there's always at least one spot which
reverses field on me...
Good luck!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:37 AM
To: mjr at inconcert.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: hand plane help NEEDED
First, I would check the sharpness of the blade again, to be sure that
its really, really sharp. You don't say what grit of diamond stone
you are using, but thats the first thing I would check.
Next, be sure to take as little off as possible at first. Skew the
plane to help reduce the effective cutting angle (I still don't
really understand this, but it works!)
You could also try and put a back bevel on the iron. A back bevel of
5 degrees or so might help. A back bevel is a very small bevel that
you _hone_ on the backside of the blade. This also helps to reduce the
effective cutting angle. I've only used this once, for some really
knarly stuff, it did help.
I would wax the sole, but that won't really help out the chip outs.
The low angle jack is great, but if you only need it once it too
spendy. I believe that its now in the area of $250 for one from
Lie-Nielson (an old Stanley could run you $2000!)
Be sure to plane from both directions so that you are not chipping stuff
out at the end of the cut.
Yes, you have a tough one here. I don't see a reference to what the
wood is, I am assuming thats its maple. If you have a low angle block
plane that would also help to at least get started.
One thing I wouldn't do, is to use a belt sander. I don't like them,
find them hard to control and usually end up with a very wavy surface.
Does any of this help?
My choices would be: 1. VERY, VERY light cuts. 2. Try a back bevel.
3. Try changing the bevel angle to perhaps 30-35 degrees (you can try
this first with a microbevel). Skew the plane. Wax the sole. Borrow
a low angle LN jack or a low angle block.
Another way may be to first put very, very light "scratches" over the
area and then plane it. It does help at times.
Let me know if you have anyother questions.
Gary
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 10:42 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Hand Planes
I just wanted to share my joy with everyone. I have been into WW for
about seven months. Up until tonight everything was mainly done with
power tools and an occasional hand chisel. During my trip to the show in
Atlanta, I went to Highland Hardware on Saturday and purchased three
Lie-Nielsen planes. Had company last week so all I was able to do was
sharpen the irons.
Well, tonight I used two of them for the first times and I couldn't
believe the results. Smooth, smooth, smooth. And taking a thin shaving
off of end grain for a perfect fitting joint was pure bliss. These tools
will definitely improve my time in the shop.
Yes, I know that the price at Highland is higher than William Alden. I
figured I would give them the extra because they have gone to the
trouble to make their store a place that you want to spend hours looking
around.
That's it. And also thanks to everyone who posts to the list. I have
picked up invaluable info; and as I learn more someday I will be able to
contribute.
Tom Knisely
San Clemente, CA
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at linkport.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 10:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hand Planes
Thomas,
Your joy is shared! It is nice to tell us. I appreciate Lie-Nielsen's
efforts to build a difficult and successful business, while offering
proud and perfect tools. So, I'm always happy to hear someone else bit
the bullet and bought some. I know a couple other guys on the list are
too.
As you already found out, your "show" planes may be gorgeous at rest but
are really meant to offer the best out-of-box performance to the
initiated. The quality is there and so is the value since the profit
margin to maufacturing cost ratio is no higher than on that of less
expensive planes. You sprung for 3 of those, hun? Wow!
Which ones?
Frederik
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 10:50 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Hand Planes
Frederik Fouillade wrote:
> You sprung for 3 of those, hun? Wow!
>
> Which ones?
>
> Frederik
No. 4 Smoothing, Low Angle Block, and Large Chisel Plane.
I can already tell it will take some time to develop the skill to
use the Chisel Plane.
Tom Knisely
San Clemente, CA
From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 5:13 AM
To: Thomas R. Knisely
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hand Planes
Tom,
I've had the small chisel plane a while. It's not really meant to
plane wood although I've used it for the ends of shoulders. Where it
excells is as a cleanup tool for getting rid of glue drops. Sounds
silly, but I'm forever using it to clean up glue where boards meet
(both flat and corners), and on my bench top. It's a very highly used
and recommended tool.
Lawrie
>No. 4 Smoothing, Low Angle Block, and Large Chisel Plane.
>I can already tell it will take some time to develop the skill to
>use the Chisel Plane.
>
>Tom Knisely
>San Clemente, CA
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 5:34 PM
To: jiy at bellsouth.net; woodworking
Subject: Re: Hand Planes
Jack Asked:
>After spending last weekend sharpening and tuning all my cutting tools,
>I have noticed a problem with using my hand planes. After getting going,
>with a thin cut, a shaving will remain in the throat of the plane, and
>the next couple of strokes simply ride on the shaving that is sticking
>out of the throat. The shaving is not getting stuck in the chip breaker,
>or the iron, but is simply hanging out of the throat (especially if it
>is a long shaving). As a result, it folds back to the sole of the plane,
>and the plane rides on the shaving. It is not a big deal, but really is
>annoying as it breaks the rhythm. Am I doing something wrong, or does
>the plane need to be retuned somehow. It seems to happen of my LN #2 and
>my Record #4 the most.
>
Jack:
I have this problem from time to time myself. Since the Record is pretty
similar to my Stanely Bailey #4's, you should be able to "fix" this the same
way. When you trued your plane, you probably removed the frog from the plane
base. If so, you know where the 2 screws are that hold it into place. Loosen
them, and move the frog back a tad (Tad, according to Webster is a precise
measurement existing between a nudge and a bit). This will open the throat a
bit more and allow the shaving through.
Of course, I could be way off here, but it's worked for me!
David Dahl
Appleton, WI
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 12:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Hand Saws
All:
Yesterday, I attended a auction of a cabinet shop. The owner had
passed on and it was essentially a estate sale. Also some real nut
cases attended. Some of the power tools went for more than current
retail. I did manage to pick up some hand tools. Got a box of that had
6 Disson hand saws 40 unused sharping files, and five saw sets for $20
among other things. Got home and used one of the saws and it cut though
a piece of walnut like butter. My question is this, does anyone know of
a good reference that can instruct me on how to care and sharpen hand
saws. Since the previous owner had his name on these tools and
obviously knew how to take care of them, I feel that I bought a
obligation to care for them as he did. Any help would be appreciated.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 2:16 PM
To: knm1 at juno.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hand Saws
Ken, You paid to much, so I'll take 'em off your hands for $19.99. Seriously
here's a couple of online resources which may be helpful:
http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/handsaws/handsaws.htm
http://www.productreviewnet.com/abstracts/7/7022.htm
I didn't look either one of them over, but the first one looks like a pretty
good resource. I think the second is just some product reviews.
Have fun you lucky duck!
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.planrite.com/WC/wcentral.html
My question is this, does anyone know of
> a good reference that can instruct me on how to care and sharpen hand
> saws. Since the previous owner had his name on these tools and
> obviously knew how to take care of them, I feel that I bought a
> obligation to care for them as he did. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Ken Martin
> Dovetails "R" Us
> Newport News, Virginia
> USA
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
--
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Hand Saws
[snip]
> a piece of walnut like butter. My question is this, does anyone know of
> a good reference that can instruct me on how to care and sharpen hand
> saws. Since the previous owner had his name on these tools and
> obviously knew how to take care of them, I feel that I bought a
> obligation to care for them as he did. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Ken Martin
> Dovetails "R" Us
> Newport News, Virginia
> USA
Ken,
Like Chuck, I also recommend Ralph Brendler's web site for useful
information on hand tools. You might also want to check out the video
mentioned in the following advertising blurb. I recently purchased the saw
sharpening video and I highly recommend it. Besides making an old tool nut
like me drool over some really nice saws, it is very informative on
sharpening both cross-cut and rip saws; along with some useful information
on the required files and their use. I do not have any interest in ALP
Productions -- just a satisfied customer. BTW, Anatol is a regular
participant on the Old Tools listserver and I'm sure other list members
would gladly second my recommendation.
I hope this helps,
Mike
------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
mdelong at mail.smu.edu
========================================================================
"Hand Saw Sharpening" hosted by Tom Law is now available. This one hour
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Please include your name and mailing address.
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 8:43 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Hard Pine?
Hello,
I'm trying to locate some 'hard pine' for building a set of built-in bookcases to match my desk. I'm very unclear as to what exactly 'hard pine' is.
I read with great interest the recent threads on 'hardwoods' and 'softwoods', but this seemed to muddy the waters up a bit.
So, are there trade names or certain pine species which are considered to be hard pine? Once that is sorted out, I will need to find a reputable supplier (mail order?) of this material, as I don't believe it can be purchased locally in central Iowa.
Any pointers greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
============================================
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 8:22 PM
To: Rich Duzenbury
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
Rich,
SYP (Southern Yellow Pine) is as hard as Pine comes. By the way, it's
considered one of the finest construction building materials money can
buy and shipped the world over. I don't think that it will be easy to
find SWP that is kiln dried for furniture making though. Don't be fooled
by the lumber dealer who will tell you that his SWP is kiln dried. Most
all SWP is kiln dried...but for construction use only. In other words,
it's not kiln dried enough for interior furniture making.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 11:10 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
I speculate that your confusion comes from a misunderstanding of a
pronunciation. What is being said is Heart Pine, not hard pine. Actually,
the real name is Longleaf Pine and is still being grown today although in
an endangered capacity.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 11:27 PM
To: Joe Johns; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Hard Pine?
> I speculate that your confusion comes from a misunderstanding of a
> pronunciation. What is being said is Heart Pine, not hard pine.
> Actually,
> the real name is Longleaf Pine and is still being grown today although in
> an endangered capacity.
Hmmm.
Here is a photo of the item, my 'new' circa 1875 telegraph operators desk:
http://vpsolutions.com/images/desk.jpg
I'd like to build some bookcases to match, and was told that this was 'hard pine'. Note the very visible grain lines. I'm currently under the impression that this may also be known as Southern Yellow Pine...
In any case, whatever it is, I'd like to find a reputable supplier for approximately 250-300bf.
What are your thoughts?
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
============================================
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 6:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
>I'm trying to locate some 'hard pine'
I'm gonna weigh in with Don and Joe on this and say they are both
right. It's a floor wax and a desert topping! Oh sorry, wrong skit.
Anyhoo, Don is correct in that most sources are going to sell KD that
isn't up to furniture grade. Before seeing Joe's response I had
already wondered if you might be looking for "heart" pine and not hard
pine. As we all know Joe's intellect is second to none so let's not
jinx it by arguing and with him. On the other hand with Smitty and
him getting together today there's liable to be some new story
emerging that leaves us all in doubt as to "who dresses them in the
morning".
You might want to pursue reclaimed old growth timber for this project.
If you can find a dealer that will send you a sample piece prior to
ordering the full lot you could verify grain or pattern compatibility.
At this point of the diatribe I instruct you to click on the URL(s)
provided.
A nice article on reclamation and some sources:
http://www.goodwood.org/goodwood/understory/altwood/watts.html
A link to some suppliers:
http://heartpine.com/
http://www.oldlogs.com/
http://www.authenticpinefloors.com/
One last note, there was an article in the October 1998/#132 (page 66)
issue of Fine Woodworking magazine on pine. It covered the
differences and delved into old growth compared to today's offerings.
After seeing this I'll never use "new" pine again for furniture. The
article does mention the Southern Forest Products Association's push
to promote new pine for furniture usage. Here's a link to companies
that supply. A phone call or two may lead to a distributor in your
area.
http://www.sfpa.org/mfrs.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Hard Pine?
Without a doubt the material used in that photo is Heart Pine - the most
resinous of all the pines and the most easy to work. Before moving out
here I made several pieces of furniture from it that I reclaimed from old
buildings. Today, the wood can be bought from folks who specialize in
either bringing it up from their watery graves or tearing down old
buildings. I suggest you explore the URL's that my buddy Keith provided
for you. FHB and FW all have advertisements in them for suppliers too.
What made that wood so attractive, aside from it's beauty, was its growing
region, which once used to be south from Va down to Ga and west to Tx.
Because of this it was extensively harvested almost to the point of
extinction and now it is only grown in the deep south.
Good luck with your project, it sounds like fun.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
Could that be Douglas Fir? It is native to the US west coast and is one of
the stronger softwoods. Very long, straight grain and few knots. Also
fairly light and stable. It might be a nice choice for your project. I
haven't heard it call "hard pine", but it is one of the strongest and
hardest of the softwoods. The color is reddish brown, and looks great with
just a clear finish. Without seeing your piece in person I can't say for
sure, but it looks like that might be what it is made of.
John
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:42 AM
To: John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Hard Pine?
Being from Douglas Fir country, I tend to agree with John on this. That
piece looks very much like Douglas Fir to me.
Gary Cavener
From: Jeff Marshall [nickevan at erols.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:44 AM
To: Rich Duzenbury; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
Rich -
Back when this country was first settled, the southeast portion of the US
had an indigenous species of pine called "longleaf" (not long needle, as you
might expect) pine. Much of this pine was used in the timbers of old barns
and warehouses.
Today, longleaf pine is not grown by the lumber companies as it grows too
slow. Of course, that slow growth also leads to harder wood than the
typical pine grown today. But do not be mislead, longleaf pine is nowhere
near as hard as your typical hardwoods.
Anyway, there is a pretty significant business these days in recovering the
old longleaf pine timbers from old buildings, particularly old warehouses.
The timbers are re-sawn into flooring, paneling, etc. The stuff is really
beautiful (but not recommended for flooring - just is not that hard). One
of the companies that I know has been doing this for many years is Mountain
Lumber, located a few miles north of Charlottesville, Virginia. I believe
their website address is www.mountainlumber.com. Talk to the president,
Willie Barnes.
Other similar firms can be located by looking in the ads in the back of
architectural magaziones.
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 3:56 AM
To: Rich Duzenbury; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
There are two basic varieties of pine: white pine and yellow pine.
(Donald Weisman sends that what you're looking for is really called
"heart pine," which is quite correct--pine heartwood.) White pine
grows mostly in the northern United States and Canada; yellow pine
grows in the South. It's abbreviated SYP.
According to Fine Woodworking, SYP is as hard as some of the
finer hardwoods--I believe they said walnut was not quite as
hard as SYP, which I can believe. My 50-tooth Freud blade lets
you know it's there when cutting SYP.
Steve Wall Lumber (www.walllumber.com) carries southern yellow
pine, furniture grade. Prices of this stuff change quite a bit, so it's
best to hit his site when you're ready to buy.
If you have a big wood storage area in your shop, a close supply
of large SYP timbers (we're talking 2 x 10s here) and some time,
you might want to buy a supply of SYP and live with it in the shop
for a year or so to get good and dry. I've got about a dozen
12-foot 2 x 10s I cut into four-foot pieces and stickered a year or so
ago just waiting for the mythical "right time" to turn them into some
mission-style living room chairs.
--jmowreader
"There's no such thing as only one rabbit."
--Hogan's Heroes
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 9:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Hard Pine?
At 11:44 AM 11/8/98 -0500, Jeff Marshall wrote:
>Today, longleaf pine is not grown by the lumber companies as it grows too
>slow. Of course, that slow growth also leads to harder wood than the
>typical pine grown today. But do not be mislead, longleaf pine is nowhere
>near as hard as your typical hardwoods.
Ahh, but that is not true. Heart Pine is harder than you might expect - in
fact, it's harder than Walnut. True story! The Longleaf Pine rings in
with a specific gravity of 0.54, while Walnut weighs in with a 0.51 and
almost as hard as Sugar Maple, which is a 0.56.
>Anyway, there is a pretty significant business these days in recovering the
>old longleaf pine timbers from old buildings, particularly old warehouses.
>The timbers are re-sawn into flooring, paneling, etc. The stuff is really
>beautiful (but not recommended for flooring - just is not that hard).
Actually, that is what it's used for most, flooring and, of course,
furniture because the high content of resin makes for an extremely
long-wearing material.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Rich Duzenbury [rduz at aros.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:03 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Hard Pine?
I'd like to take a moment to thank the respondents for their advice. I hope I haven't given Don a complex over the Pine/Fir/Finish/Photo thing. I have plenty of time to find some stock, and once the cases have been made, I'll happily post some pix.
On a related note, I did visit a gentlman today who has been a saywer and supplier of fine hardwood in the central Iowa area for three plus decades. He is selling out his remaining 30,000bf or so of wood in order to retire, at what I think is are very reasonable prices.
I purchased 4/4 cyprus, 12" by 12' for 1.50bf
I purchased 4/4 hard maple, 12" by 12' for 3.00bf that had been air drying in his barn for at least 25 years.
I don't think he will mail order, so you'd have to be reasonably local. Sorry to those of you who won't be able to take advantage of this. If you are interested, email me off list as I don't think he would mind if I gave you his phone number.
BTW, it was the most pleasant buying experience I have ever had. This gentleman was as nice as nice could be, and part of the buying ceremony includes tea and cookies in his home with him and his wife.
Again, thank you all.
Regards,
Rich
============================================
Rich Duzenbury
http://rich.dyn.ml.org
http://vpsolutions.com
============================================
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 9:08 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
Two days ago my wife and I were having an after coffee stroll at the local
shopping emporium. We happened upon the best furniture store in town and
went in for a look around. Although there were some styles there we both
liked, the quality of even the highest end goods left a great deal to be
desired.
Joinery precision was pathetic. Butterfly key used at points other than the
joint between boards. The few solid wood items have been made up of <2 in
wide rip cut wood edge joined wily nilly without regard for color or grain.
Tabletops which looked lovely at first, yet one touch on the reverse side
reveals them to be thin MDF with a whisper of veneer on top. Don't even
think about refinishing your $2,000 table after somebody sets a hot pan down
on it one day ... there isn't enough wood there to refinish. Unfinished
drawer insides made from 3/8" Baltic birch with perfunctory butt joints.
Stickley, Morris and friends would be very disturbed at the low level of
craftsmanship being embodied in "craftsman" lines of furniture.
I could go on and on, but what struck me is that after only a year as a
semi-serious woodworker, I could never buy any of that stuff. I may not yet
have the skills and time to do everything we need or want, but with patience
and effort I'm sure I can get there. I would rather wait ten years than
bring any more of that junk into the house. I'm already chapped that
expensive couches purchased ten years ago are litteraly falling apart, and
not due to abuse. Staples and the odd dowel do not make strong furniture.
Does anyone else feel this way?
John
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:07 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
Well said, Don, and I fully agree with your assessment of
the furniture industry.
I recently had a new client who moved to Idaho in June. The
movers destroyed a coffee table. He called me to give him
an estimate of the repair cost. The transfer company agreed
to pay for repairs, but not replacement. It was totally
unrepairable. Not only because of the materials it was made
from, but also because of the poor (meaning inexpensive)
joinery and construction technique. I wrote out a complete
assessment of the damage for client to submit back to the
transfer company. I offered to make a replacement to
closely match the original and the rest of the pieces in his
living room. When I told him my price I thought he was
going to faint. I then gave him an brief explanation on the
current state of the art in production made furniture, and
the value of custom made furniture. I assumed that this was
going to be a no-deal situation as far as I was concerned.
After much bickering between the client and the transfer
company, the client hired a lawyer. To my surprise, the
transfer company sent a representative to me last week, and
told me that the settlement would be a custom made coffee
table and that I was chosen for the contract because of the
write up I did on the damaged item. WOW! I am to bill the
transfer company directly, upon delivery and the client's
full satisfaction. When I informed the client and the
transfer company that I could not possibly deliver until May
or June of next year due to prior commitments, they both
said OK.
What the client has asked for will cost the transfer company
more than five times the replacement cost if they had simply
ordered one from the original manufacturer, and they seemed
to be glad to pay it. It will be solid oak, walnut stain,
Danish oil finish, 22 by 42 inches, with a laminated and
beveled smoked glass top.
I sure hope that lawyer never comes after me.
10Q,
Moose
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:59 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
John T. Horner wrote:
Why is it
> that so many people feel they can't afford quality today at a time when in
> theory there is so much more money going around?
>
> John
...John, my theory is that most of the answer has to do with education
at large. That'd take pages to even brush on, but, if I make sense, I
mean "education" here as some perceived worth which is now a by-product
of commercialism, mass advertising and TV, decade long commercial
manipulation of the consumer by ANY industry.
You're right, there is PLENTY of money to go around and there is
absolutely no lack of clients.
There is though a grave lack of what I call good
"salespeople-educators". It's their job to go out and demonstrate the
worth, convince the client that he is well worth such better made and
more expensive furniture. It is NOT the other way around. The Nay
Sayers or the ones who throw in the towel do so only because they can't
measure up, be it a lack of salesmanship, a lack of imagination, a lack
of original building skills. If one cannot adapt, constantly
re-question and re-create, one joins the sylt and goes wayside sooner or
later.
I am not saying the world's numbers have not changed and that we can
support a legion of high-quality makers instead of the cad-cam mills. I
am saying that quality today, as a hybrid of the old and new, is just as
viable and marketable as it always was. It just requires good analysis
and some smooth shifting to adapt.
A lot of this goes back to that great thread we had month ago on
margins, costs, and sales to frustratingly unaware crowds. Where there
is a will, there is a way ...and many excuses flying around. It is more
difficult today than 80 years ago in some ways, but it is much easier
today in many other ways too, no matter what the industries do or how
the masses are catered to.
Frederik
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:33 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
John,
I do feel your way exactly and I'm sure everyone on the lsit does also.
Completely aside from what you said, but to answer if I do buy the stuff
...I do more now than before for some reason.
Very paradoxal if not ambiguous. Year ago, I had all that middle road
furniture I was buying in my first years here. From day one I knew I'd
build my own someday but with my studies and odd jobs, then my speaker
company, I could never start a shop. That's untill I picked up my dear
wife, sold the company and ALL the furniture, moved to a better place
and decided to quit working. Now, I'm here 8 years later, finding out
it takes 5 years to get a real shop going (sold most of the last one
when buying the new house last year). Anyway, I sometimes see ready
made, high grade furniture that's too cheap to pass and could be sold
latter in the ads, some "antiques" (by here standards) which could use
modifications, or something my wife wants now and I can't built till
next kingdom comes. So I end up buying again, albeit moderately, when I
thought I never would again.
Examples: There was that $1200 (...worth $900 tops at retail IMSO)
famous-maker solid Maple table, Japanese style and hand jointed with no
fasteners, in a ritzy downtown Portland store. That table was the last
of some line they were throwing out, and I bought it for $400. It was
very close to one I wanted to build at that time. Moreover, the price
was about what my compounded cost would have been. My wife liked it a
lot, so I put my pride aside and took it home.
Another example was an Elm table from an old library, which look was
soooo perfect. Then there was that 1/2 gorgeous and 1/2 ridiculed in
style antique Walnut wardrobe. Turn of the century British, fabulously
grained and oiled. I wanted to sink my teeth in it, it was so warm and
soft looking. But the top pannels were a disgrace. So I bought that to
change it once I find the right veneer, which I did last month.
Last example was that late 1840's Scottish chest of drawers. It has
been abused and needs moderate work but is gorgeous as is. The fat
knobs, the thick and rounded edges, the old African Mahogany, the round
feet, the original brass keyholes, the size etc... A pile of excuses to
take it home. At home I start looking really close and found some
textbook old world repairs (leather + hideglue) that were so well done
and still as new. Finally I start detailling the wood use for the back
and the drawers. Strange ...there is a bunch of incrusted sea-shells.
My sailing years indentify Boat hulls shells. There is no way the Chest
could have spent 50 years facing the Ocean by some open Scottish window,
be doused daily for the shells to grow ...and still make it to me in
1998. So now I have a chest with a history bigger than it, a terrific
example of smart recycling with the beautiful Mahogany where it shows,
and the frame made out of hardwood from an old shipwreck. That chest is
never leaving my bedroom no matter who built it. It also will provide
inspiration for a pair of siblings (next kingdom).
Frederik
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:39 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
...Ooops, I just mailed a big plaster chunk to the list and now am
noticing that word in John's subject line "FACTORY" made. As in Wall
Mart factories?
Well, my Maple table was high-end factory made but by the unit. I guess
it'd be more "SO else's Shop made". Then the Walnut Wardrobe was turn
of the century factory made, the Elm table was 1930's production I think
and the Scottish chest was definitely Pap shop made.
Apologies,
Frederik
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> Two days ago my wife and I were having an after coffee stroll < SNIP >
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:37 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Has being a woodworker ruined your ability or willingness to buy factory made furniture?
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >I share with you the general contention about new furniture, but there
> >are not enough people out there, who know or care, who have the money to
> >spend, (or willing to let loose of it) or whom can tell the difference
> >to keep small specialty shops, custom furniture makers in business
> >making a legimate profit and earning a living not supplemented by their
> >wife, friends or bank.
> >--
>
> I hear, understand and respect what you are saying. However, I still
> wonder how it is that the commercial furniture I inherited from my mechanic
> grandfather and school teacher great uncle is of such high quality compared
> to today's stuff. They were not wealthy people by any standard. Why is it
> that so many people feel they can't afford quality today at a time when in
> theory there is so much more money going around?
>
> John
Simple John,
They were not living beyond their means. ie.
No credit.
No charge cards.
Pay as you go.
They had a 1 hp. horse.
Modest home
Wore the same designer jeans till washday.
...and on and on.
Today, it's a question of priorities. "Why should I buy a dining table
for $2500.00 when I can get one with 6 chairs for $750.? When it breaks,
I'll buy another. It's that throw-away society thing again.
It happens right here on theoak. Some, cannot afford tools because of
other prioritys. Rather than learn how to woodwork without machine tools
(could also be because of not being committed) they opt for a cheap
useless tool instead that could *almost* do it's intended purpose. Your
Grandfather would have never done that!
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: gpotte at ibm.net
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 7:34 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Heating The Shop
My shop is my 350 sq. ft. garage and this year I want to have some heat
in it. I live in Jersey so the temperature differential isn't like
Alaska. Can't afford a wall unit and have no room for a woodstove. Have
been looking at the portable propane fired type heaters but I am worried
about dust. Are these safe in a wood shop environment? Thanks in advance
for your help.
Geoff Potter
From: Rick and Liz Walker [rickliz at eos.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 7:48 AM
To: gpotte at ibm.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
I was faced with the same problem last year. My insurance company told me
that any source of heat that had an open flame would void the insurance. I
ended up having a 220 volt electric heater hung from the ceiling and I love
it..... It cost me about 50.00 a month to operate. It is not in the way...
uses none of my valuable floor space (about 350 sq ft). I leave it around
50-55 deg when not working and turn it up to about 65 when I am in there
working. I love it.
Rick
"He who laughs last thinks slowest!"
Stone Cold Stunners
Rick & Lizzy Walker from Ohio
Rick's Fantasy Football League
http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 3:43 PM
To: Rick and Liz Walker
Cc: gpotte at ibm.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
I have a portable gas heater when it gets really cold here in the Scottish
Highlands, but truth to tell, I don't use it very much - unless we go 20
Celsius below as we did a year or two ago. In winter I change the regular
light bulbs to heating light bulbs, the kind you see keeping food warm in
restaurants and I also use a couple of 500 watt halogen light fittings
directed at the saw and the bench. This way I get heat and light at the
same time. Electric oil filled thermostat controlled radiators keep the
shop/garage frost free when I am not there. Works OK, as you say, it ain't
Alaska. In my greenhouse I have a thermostatically controlled 3 Kw fan
heater. I am thinking of getting another of these for the workshop since
they don't rust and are really reliable. My Fuchsias depend on one.
Ray
From: Scott Rohan-Smith [wdworkr at marsweb.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 5:05 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
I have used a propane fired infra red heater in my 400 sq' detached
garage for 3 years. It works fine for me. Of course a set up like Ricks
or a wall mounted gas furnace would be even better, but for my needs it
works. I have even been able to work comfortably on -20 deg F winter
days. Takes a little while to warm it up but within about 30 - 45
minutes I'm ready to go.
I am very cautious with it however. I keep it parked over by the door
farthest away from where I'm working. And the other *VERY* important
thing is a fresh air supply for anything that burns fuel. It will
eventually use up all the oxygen, something humans need to survive. The
garage door has a 2" diameter hole in it from an error on the catcher
while my oldest son was practicing pitching several years ago! :-(
Smitty aka Scott Rohan-Smith
Missoula, MT home the the U of Montana Grizzlies who are going to
maul the Portland State Vikings at homecoming today! Go Griz!!!
gpotte at ibm.net wrote:
From: Scott Rohan-Smith [wdworkr at marsweb.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 9:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
Gary L. Yarrow wrote:
> Do you have any problem with condensation, as the propane heatere
> produces a fair amount of moisture as part of the combustion?
Sorry, I forgot to mention that. Yes, condensation is a problem with
burning propane. If this were my day job, I would not use this heater.
But being the warrior I am (weekend that is) it's not that big of a
problem for now. Someday I hope to put in a natural gas wall mounted
unit.
Smitty aka Scott Rohan-Smith
Missoula, MT Always drink upstream from the herd.
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:49 AM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
I while back I posted a similar request for suggestions on shop heating,
and Moose almost came up with a promising oil filled electric radiator
that would be safe in a dusty environment, but I haven't heard from him
yet what the brand and model number is. (Moose, are you listening,
hint, hint!)
Zane Harris
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 5:29 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
Last year I was looking for a ceramic heater for my dusty shop. Found one
from Graingers for a litle more than $100.00 US. It was a Marley Electric,
model 482... 4800 watts and has a thermostat. It is small enough to hang
from the ceiling in my small shop (12'-24') and does a decent job of
getting it warm (NC).
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 4:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: re:Heating the Shop
Regarding the oil filled electric radiators purchased at Wal-Mart and
K-Mart, are they approved for use in explosive atmospheres, with sealed
thermostats, as the model which Moose has been trying to relocate is?
Zane Harris
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:51 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
The oil-filled type of heaters, although reasonably priced, are not
reasonable to operate, especially considering the amount of heat they put
out. Further, they are not safe in being able to store things near them.
Just like baseboard heaters, they ARE a fire hazard and a simple matter of
dropping something in them may prove disastrous. These types of heaters
are not area they are location only.
I suggest installing a ceiling mounted propane or electric heating system.
You've seen them in mechanic shops - they're usually mounted up in a
corner, out of the way and where they can do the most good. A woodshop
requires all the floor and wall space it can wring out of a building so
something like this wouldn't be an option for me. I imagine that if you
checked with some heating contractors that you'd be able to pick up a used
one of either breed.
As for the dusty environment....do you know how much dust you'd have to
have in the air in order for it to 'explode'? I can assure you that unless
you do your woodworking in a grain elevator, you're safe. As for the fumes
of finishes and the like...depending upon the type of propane heater you
get, this may be a concern. The one I have in my shop is a type of closed
combustion system. Perfectly safe, perfectly practical, it's ceiling
mounted and does a jolly nice job. Cost to operate? Last September I
topped off my tank and was able to go until March before I need more. At
night I set the thermostat to 56 and during the day it's set to 68 so with
my flannel shirt on, it's rather comfy.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 11:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Heating the Shop
Mike & Zane,
I responded to this thread when it first appeared a few months ago but don't
remember if it was to the whole list or not.
I own one of those oil filled radiators made by Longhi (sp?) that the
discount houses sell. This unit has a thermostat and that is where you can
get a spark. If you don't believe me try watching it in a dark room. Mine
was in my daughter's room and at night you could see a visible arc when the
contacts separated to shut the unit off. There may be other types available
now but if you are breaking the kind of current these heaters draw with a
set of contacts you are going to get an arc.
Lastly if the heaters are going to operate unattended then be sure there is
an overtemp cut-out. I have personally seen one that the contacts welded
shut (from arcing) and the unit overheated, warped and unloaded it's oil all
over the floor.
Please be careful! Don't want to hear of anyone getting hurt.
Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: R.J. Spomer [rjspomer at email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:40 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Joe Johns
Subject: Re: Heating The Shop
Joe is right on about the oil-filled heaters. The solution I came up with is
a radiant unit. This very same unit is used in Quick change oil shops. The
company name is Space-Ray 1-800-438-4936. Works great. By the way Joe I went
home last week to Bozeman to see my family. Boy do I miss Montana.
RJ
lost in TN
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 5:08 AM
To: Ben Fink
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Heating the Shop
Ben,
Mine are sure not explosion proof either but they do not have the
thermostat someone else spoke of.They have only three temperature ranges
which lessons the chance for a spark to switching off and on.Have had
one in my office now for 4 years with no problems.I use 2 more in my
finishing room for occasional heat.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 3:34 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Heaven and Hell
A woodworker died one day (not Norm; he's over there making a copy
of the Pearly Gates with a Stanley No. 1 and three chisels) and was
presented to St. Peter.
As St. Peter leafed through the Book of Life, he found the woodworker's
name--but with an asterisk.
"What's that mean?"
"It means you have to choose between Heaven and Hell."
"Easy. I'll take Heaven."
"Not so easy. You have to spend a whole day in each place."
Fair enough, so they sent the guy to Hell. Upon arriving, they took him to
a special shop with all the dream tools one could want. Powermatic
66 saws--and one just for a dado cutter!--Oneway lathes, Lie-Nielsen
and Record planes, Marples chisels...the ultimate place to work wood.
And what wood! Beautifully figured, with a wonderful texture you could
plane in either direction. After churning out a couple of chairs, he was
then taken to dinner with the Devil himself. Satan turned out to be a
woodworker and a really great guy, and over a fine meal and the
best Cuban cigars, Satan and the woodworker traded tool gloats and
wood-finding tales.
The second day, our man spent his day in Heaven, sitting on a cloud
whittling a walnut peg and listening to harp music.
Comes St. Peter at the end of the day in Heaven. "So which will it be?"
"I'm afraid you'll be offended, St. Peter..."
"You choose to go to Hell."
"Heaven's nice and all, but I had a lot better time in Hell, so..."
"I understand. Good luck to you, my son."
Upon his return to Hell, he's ushered into a different shop. Here he's
confronted with a dull, rusty penknife, two truckloads of lignum
vitae, and an order for two thousand pitchforks.
"Where's the other shop?"
"The what?"
"You know, the other shop. The one I was in just a day ago!"
"Oh...that! Well, we were just recruiting you then.
But now you work here."
--jmowreader
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:58 AM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Heaven and Hell
I've heard it, but as a software engineer. Hell had
bimbos that just loved software engineers, compilers that
worked every time, etc. Heaven was as standard. On return
to Hell it was the traditional pitchforks and flames scene.
Upon asking a Deamon, he was told, "Oh, that was the demo
version."
Seems more appropriate to me.
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 4:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Help - Adirondack - Norm
Hello everyone.
Please can you help me? Here in Scotland (in the Highlands) we feel a bit
cut off, and we only just got The New Yankee Workshop show where Norm
builds his Adirondack chair - it was dated 1991. Oh well.
Anyhow, for my old age I would love to build Norm's chair. I have seen
other plans on the web, including the excellent Jake's Chair, but for
various reasons, including the incredible price of tools and timber here, I
have to make do with the stock I have and can easily find at a reasonable
price. So Norms chair, using wood no wider than 6 inches is ideal and for
me it has all the attributes I like.
That said, my problem is getting the measurements and patterns. I have
taped the TV show, but no matter how hard I try I cannot get the rear
leg/seat support right, nor the arms and I have to guess the rest. The
result is unsatisfactory. I heard Norm did a book but the shops over here
don't have it listed and anyhow, I don't even know if the Adirondack chair
is in it. The TV channel, Discovery Europe, cannot help - they don't even
seem to have a teletext service. :-(
So Please, if someone has a copy of the dimensions, patterns and or plans
and instructions, please can they scan them or whatever and send them to me
privately. I really would be very grateful, and if you ever get to the
beautiful Scottish Highlands, you will be assured of full Scottish
hospitality.
Please help.
Thanks
Ray
From: scott white [swhite at cimedia.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 7:10 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help - Adirondack - Norm
Hi Ray:
>Anyhow, for my old age I would love to build Norm's chair.
I JUST built this chair and love it. It's my first major woodworking
project and I'm going to go home and cut the wood for two more. Very
graceful, well-proportioned and comfortable.
The plans are in the book New Yankee Classics by Norm. You can get it here:
http://www.shopping.com/ibuy/Books/default.asp?nav=|42|15|516|000421930981|-1
for $15 US + shipping. I'm sure you can find it on Amazon.com, etc. but
Shopping.com has the best prices I've found on woodworking books and I'm
fairly sure they'll ship internationally.
The book has lots of photos & step-by-step instructions, which I needed at
my level of expertise.
Good luck & let me know if you have any questions,
Scott
Austin, Texas, USA
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 9:01 AM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Subject: Re: Help - Adirondack - Norm
At 08:16 16/09/98 -0700, you wrote:
>If you still need the plans, I can scan them in for you and email, but
>there is a small catch: I just moved and my book is in a box *somewhere*.
>So, if you don't mind waiting a while, I can do it. Don't hesitate to take
>other offers, though, because "a while" might be upwards of two weeks.
Please do, I would be very grateful indeed.
>BTW: The book has some good reading in it, other than just the projects.
The book just isn't available here and can take 8 weeks from the US.
Thanks again, Ray
>At 12:21 PM 9/16/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hello everyone.
>>
>>Please can you help me? Here in Scotland (in the Highlands) we feel a bit
>>cut off, and we only just got The New Yankee Workshop show where Norm
>>builds his Adirondack chair - it was dated 1991. Oh well.
>>
>>Anyhow, for my old age I would love to build Norm's chair. I have seen
>>other plans on the web, including the excellent Jake's Chair, but for
>>various reasons, including the incredible price of tools and timber here, I
>>have to make do with the stock I have and can easily find at a reasonable
>>price. So Norms chair, using wood no wider than 6 inches is ideal and for
>>me it has all the attributes I like.
>>
>>That said, my problem is getting the measurements and patterns. I have
>>taped the TV show, but no matter how hard I try I cannot get the rear
>>leg/seat support right, nor the arms and I have to guess the rest. The
>>result is unsatisfactory. I heard Norm did a book but the shops over here
>>don't have it listed and anyhow, I don't even know if the Adirondack chair
>>is in it. The TV channel, Discovery Europe, cannot help - they don't even
>>seem to have a teletext service. :-(
>>
>>So Please, if someone has a copy of the dimensions, patterns and or plans
>>and instructions, please can they scan them or whatever and send them to me
>>privately. I really would be very grateful, and if you ever get to the
>>beautiful Scottish Highlands, you will be assured of full Scottish
>>hospitality.
>>
>>Please help.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>
>>
> ______
> .'-----\\ _
> ___ Stephen Bigelow // #``.) __
> \ \_________ __--~~--_-\\/ |)
> \ ~~- _-~~ -_``.|)
> |\_.--~~~~~~~~~~-._ \________ _~ -YAMAHA- | \\
> |/ (} _..._/*/ \ ~\~ | ``.--~~~~~--__
> /___-~~~ /=/~-_ ~~~--------~~--------------/ .-~\\ _________~
> * ---/=/ \ \ MAXIM /{}===_____===_ || / __``. / \ *
> / __/=/_\____\__\ 650 /[]###/=== \###\ || /__/ \\ /
> | | [ |*|___________~~~~~==/ ##\_____/## \ \| | |------*------| |
> \ ~~___________________/ /_##+++++##* | | / \
> * ---\_)________________/___________\_/ / * \ / \ / *
> * * \_)____________________/ * ~~~~~ *
> ------- sbigelow at bigfoot.com --------
>============================================================================
>==
>
>
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 9:33 AM
To: entrepreneur at enterprise.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help - Adirondack - Norm
As another responder has noted, the book is available. It is an excellent
investment if you can get it. I also love my chairs and am making two more. I
scanned the plans in order to make full scale templates for the cut-outs. If
you cannot get the book, let me know and I can send the several scanned images
(but not to the whole list!)
It was one of the more enjoyable projects I have done - I used Cypress.
Lee Harper
From: Bill Moore [bmoore at micron.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 11:03 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help - Adirondack - Norm
Hi Ray -
I've built probably around 200 of these chairs in the last few
years.
While I've done a few modifications, I feel it's the most
comfortable
Adirondak chair available. My customers obviously agree.
One of my modifications is worth considering, evem though it
will add to the price of the material: Build it out of 5/4 stock
-
everything except the seat and back slats. This will yield a much
stronger and sturdier chair.
Over here we get dimensioned lumber in '2 by' and '1 by'
thicknesses.
The standard 1x6 ripped into 2.5" seat slats works well, and I
use 1x4
boards as received from my supplier as the back slats.
The 5/4 lumber for the rest of it is planed and then sanded down
from
standard 2x4 and 2x6 material. An honest 5/4 just seems to look
and
feel right on these chairs.
Enjoy making them, then sit back and enjoy the accolades your
family
and friends will bestow on you!
--
------------------------------------------------
- Bill Moore 208.773.1317 -
- Post Falls, Idaho bmoore at micron.net -
------------------------------------------------
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 3:39 PM
To: Ray Berry
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help - Adirondack - Norm
A question like this does tend to get a lot of responses,
and I assume that I'm really quite late in replying.
Nevertheless...
I do not know Norm's chair. But I did live in the
Adirondacks--My parents had land and a cottage there (on
Blue Lake, at The Antlers) and I finished high school at
Northwood School, Lake Placid Club, NY, USA in 1956. And
the real Adirondack chairs were all over the place
obstructing the view of the scenery. I can't imagine why
you would want to make one since a phone call to any number
in Lake Placid, NY, USA / Saranac Lake, NY, USA / or any
other number in the Adirondcacks would get you a breeding
pair by return mail (with a great sigh of pleasure as they
got rid of more of them).
But if you are sufficiently silly and determined, let me
warn you away from the plans The Woodworker's Store (now
Rockler "http://www.rockler.com") gave away. The slope and
slant of the chair, particularly the rear legs, were much
too steep. Perhaps they were male.
Enjoy your project, but for God's sake never let male and
female Adirondack chairs get within a mile of each
other--Adirondack pollen travels a long way. And I have
heard that Scotland has some very nice scenery. Have you
checked with the Scotland Environmental Protection Board, or
whatever it might be called? Importing or creating a
strange and dangerous woodform could be illegal.
From: Ron Odum [rodum at worldnetla.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:56 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Help needed on Cedar
Hello everyone,
I have a nice supply of cedar that I cut and had kilned myself...I plan to build my daughter a cedar or blanket chest soon, but need some advise.
1. Would there be problems if I built the entire chest from cedar or should I use another wood, ie: oak, for the chest and line the inside with the cedar?
2. Most cedar projects I have seen involve what appears like a very thick glossy coat of a polyurethene finish.. Can someone give me some alternative types of finish that would work well on cedar.
3. As Ive never worked with cedar before, anything else that I should know will be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks
Ron Odum
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 1999 2:27 AM
To: Ron Odum
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help needed on Cedar
Ron Odum wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a nice supply of cedar that I cut and had kilned myself...I plan
I line chests and drawers with eastern red cedar which is what I assume
you are referring to. I tongue and groove the strips, use no glue, to
allow movement. This aromatic cedar is very brittle, splits easily and
has very little strength. Although I see inexpensive chest carcasses made
with it, I think it looks better and is certaily more stable to use cedar
to line the chest and build the carcass with another species.
I would not use any finish on this lining if the smell of the cedar is
what you are interested in. Every few years, if unfinished, one can
simply lightly sand the surface and renew the scent.
Email me privately if I can be of any help in your project.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 6:05 AM
To: Ron Odum
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help needed on Cedar
1. There are many Aromatic Cedar Chests built only from solid Cedar and
hold up well. This is less of a problem than building from any other
specie wood and then lining it. Actually in the past, when lined with
Cedar the exterior specie wood was Veneered over the Cedar, rather than
lining the exterior specie.
2. Shellac was a very common top coating used on Cedar.
3. Your construction area will smell good. Cedar splits easily.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:53 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; rodum at worldnetla.net
Subject: RE: Help needed on Cedar
Most of the work I have done with Cedar has been repairing a cedar chest
that was built many moons ago by my clients daughter (who is older than me).
Some things to keep in mind when building that I can suggest, based on the
failures I have found with this chest are:
- Use some type of mechanical joint for the case sides, like dovetails or
box joints. This case was "double rabbeted" and after years of use/abuse,
just did not hold up.
- Use a modern glue. Cedar seems to move quite a bit with changes in
humidity. This one was made with hide glue, and if you take the natual
deterioration of hide glue and the movement of the cedar, it will fail more
readily that using a modern glue. Yellow glue would be my choice, or maybe
a polyurethane glue. Use acetone over the joints before glueing up to
remove the oils on the surface of the wood for a better bond.
- Make sure the bottom panel floats. On this case I repaired, the wood
movement actually pushed the case apart.
- Any actual failure of the wood itself, through movement, occurred as a
split down the center of boards that contained pith. If your cedar is wide
enough that your can rip it and still have pieces wide enough for your
taste, I would suggest doing that.
- Avoid bigger knots like the plague. The wood WILL split around these.
- An upper lid that overhangs the front and sides allows for movement of the
big top panel without having to worry about lining up the lid and then it
being proud or shy if the top moves a little. Also, not that I have ever
had this problem..., but if your case is not dead square, an overhanging top
hides this mishap... like I said, that's never happened to me. Ever.
Really. (not)
- Shellac, like Don suggested, I feel, is the proper finish for a cedar
chest.
Take a picture and let us know!!
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
<snip>
>I have a nice supply of cedar that I cut and had kilned myself...I plan to
>build my daughter a cedar or blanket chest soon, but need some advise.
>Many Thanks
>Ron Odum
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:57 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help needed with sale of old tools
Bob,
You really should take a moment and print the following story out and
put it with your things to take with you on your first trip.
Curiously enough it's called "The Shark".
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/gunterman/TOP10.HTM#Shark
I guarantee you it's a three hankie story and if you aren't brought to
tears you'll need to check your pulse.
The idea of creating an inventory is the best. I would suggest a
listing that includes space to list condition, age, accessories and
the like. After you put a value to the tools and show it to the heirs
it's my bet they'll be blown over. I for one would enjoy giving you
an electronic hand with this.
Good luck,
Keith Bohn
From: t. ramsden [tramsden at wkpowerlink.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 5:40 PM
To: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Help with faceplate mounting
I have been turning for about 8 years and have always used the mounting
method taught to me by my father. Up until very recenly this has worked
with out fail each and evry time for the hundred of turning I have
produced. My fathers way to mount faceplate turning is to take your metal
face plate and attach via screws a square 1/2" - 3/4" thick piece of wood
about 2 inches larger than your faceplate, then cutout a piece opf paper
the exact size of this block and glue it to the face of both the turning
blank and face plate assembly, screw onto the headstock and bring in the
tail stock to use as a clamp until the glue has dried. Remove from the
lathe and rough cut on the band same to a rough round shape, re-install and
begin to turn. Up until last week this method has never failed me, Then 4
different turning in 1 week failed, all flying off a breakneck speeds, 1
actually made contact with my left arm resuliting i a trip to see my local
Doctor. The tail stock is only removed from the turning when you need to
cut out the small center portion at the very end.
Does anybody have any better ideas on how to mount a face plate
without drive screws in the bottom of the workpiece.
Thanks in advance
Ted
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 8:43 PM
To: t. ramsden
Cc: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Help with faceplate mounting
> Does anybody have any better ideas on how to mount a face plate
> without drive screws in the bottom of the workpiece.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Ted
Ted,
I've never turned a piece of word in my life, but this might offer some
alternatives for you:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/usersdirs/rhaslip/public_html/waysof.htm
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:24 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help with faceplate mounting
Hi, Tim:
I have only used the "paper joint" method of mounting a couple of
times, but it has worked the times I used it. I can only wonder about
why it didn't work for you these time. Perhaps the wood you were
turning was one of the varieties that has a high oil content that glue
does not work with too well? I have seen recommendations to wipe
these types of wood down with a fast evaporating solvent like acetone
just before glueing to improve the bond. Perhaps the paper was at
fault. Was this the same kind of paper that had worked in the past?
I have usually seen the recommendation to use kraft paper or brown
paper grocery bags for this type of joint. Using something thicker or
perhaps shiny on one side might affect the glue bond. Perhaps the
glue was past its useful shelf life, although there are usually signs
that it has spoiled, like curdling or an unusual smell.
In any event, it did not take me too long after I had bought my lathe
to realize that I did not have the patience for this or most of the
other recommended methods of mounting, which require waiting for glue
to dry, or somehow removing the screw holes after turning. I bought a
4 jaw scroll chuck which allows mounting on a central screw for
turning the outside of the bowl, then turning either a small tenon as
a foot, or a small recess within the foot. The bowl is then reversed
and the tenon held with the jaws of the chuck or the jaws are expanded
within the turned recess for turning the inside of the bowl. This has
made things a lot easier as far as mounting goes.
The chuck I bought was the original Oneway chuck, which is almost
identical to the Nova chuck. Both companies have since come out with
larger, heavier duty chucks, called the Stronghold by Oneway and I
don't recall what Nova calls theirs. A chuck is a fairly pricey
option, but I would not be without mine.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 3:23 PM
To: t. ramsden; bobham
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help with faceplate mounting
Hi Tim & Bob,
I have been turning for @ 6 years, full time, and although I know about the
glue/paper method I have never tried it because other methods work so well.
Like Bob, I use chucks, both the Nova and the Oneway Stronghold. The great
advantage of the latter is that it has a single tightening key, like a
drill chuck key, so that only one hand is needed to tighten the chuck
around the tenon. The Nova chuck that I have has two bars that move the
rings of the chuck in opposite direction. It is very difficult to hold the
piece in the chuck and tighten at the same time with only two hands.
The other method that I, and many turner friends use is cyanoacrylate
adhesives. The brand I use most often is Hot Stuff Super T, which is the
medium viscosity. I attach a waste block to a faceplate, usually the 3"
faceplate, then glue my bowl blank to that. I also use accelerator to
hasten the drying of the glue. I use this method mostly for smaller bowls
and it works very well. In other cases I have even used double stick tape.
Wendy, getting ready for the annual open studio craft tour in our town
Southern Vermont
From: Trace Sutton [hsutton at atlcom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 5:42 AM
To: t. ramsden; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Help with faceplate mounting
Ted,
This is an expensive alternative, but IMHO a good investment. There are
several chucks available that grip the wood by either compressing on a small
tenon or expanding into a small recess. I've never had a peice dislodge
when using chucks. There are several available, i.e., oneway, oneway
stronghold (bigger version), nova, novas larger version, vicmark, just to
name a few. They range in price from $100 up to the $250 range. They are
really versatile as you can change the jaws in them that are used to grip
the stock. I have jaws that can grip from a 3/8" dowel up to a 16" bowl rim
(for turning the base of a bowl or platter). I have also found them to be
very easy to use and it cuts down on the time involved in glue up's.
regards,
Trace
From: mjr at inconcert.com on behalf of Michael J. Register [mjr at inconcert.com]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 11:24 AM
To: mestech at istar.ca
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Hide a bed plan
Yves Messier wrote:
> Another one who loses things. :)
> I was surfing around the web about a month or so ago and came across a plan
> to build a hide-a-bed. This company also sold special hardware for these
> hide a beds that looked like wall units when closed. I have a bachelor appt.
> to renovate for a friend and want to show him this hide a bed. I can't seem
> to find the site. I should of printed the page.
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Yves
http://www.wallbed.com/wallbedhome.html
http://www.murphybedcompany.com/
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 11:14 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Hiding crappy miters.
So I wrote a while ago about setting the angle of my trouble saw......errr,
table saw blade and I think I came up with a viable (read CHEAP) solution -
but more about that later. The reason behind the question was the s**t way
some miters fit making a hexagon box. OK, it's planed (and planed some more)
and cut and glued up. Fill the gaps and they stand out like a wedding p***k.
What to do....ohhh, what to do. Anyway, I cut some grooves with my
super-wowee, new, early Xmas present Wizard and laid in some stripped house
wire (I used a single conductor from 14/2). The wife is still ooohhhing and
ahhhing in spite of the extra mistakes I made.
For laying up angles I'm trying the protractor from CAD Files For
Woodworkers sandwiched between two pieces of plexiglass and using my sliding
T-bevel to transfer the angle.....I'll let you know how it works out (after
I finish getting the snow offa all the tools).
I hope this suggestion helps somebody out of one of those seemingly
insurmountable screw-ups.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 10:08 AM
To: Danny E. Cook; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Hiding crappy miters.
Actually, Danny, it's proving quite simple. With the workpiece well braced,
a good stance and both hands on the tool it's fairly easy to follow the
joint with a cut-off wheel. The first one I did, I got carried away in my
brilliance but the subsequent ones are close to "on the money". The tool
makes it easy to cut off the end of the wire and smooth the end into the
profile of the wood.
Of course the ideal scenario would be dead on miters to start with but I
have the nagging suspicion that accuracy and repeatability may not surface
until the "lower priced" bench top saw meets it's replacement (Santa said I
wasn't good enough to get one this year).
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:40 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: Hiding crappy miters.
Jim & Deb Warman wrote:
> For laying up angles I'm trying the protractor from CAD Files For
> Woodworkers sandwiched between two pieces of plexiglass
Problem #1 You are probably getting parallax error viewing through the
Plexiglas. If the CAD file protractor is on paper, try several coats of
clear finish.
A better route would be an adjustable draftsman triangle from a
stationary store.
> and using my sliding T-bevel to transfer the angle
Problem #2 A second chance for error. Every time you get further away
from the original protractor's scale, there is that small chance for
error.
If it seems that I am harping on errors, its because I am. The hexagon
project needs to have 12 on-the-money angle cuts. Setting the tool
with the greatest extent of accuracy is imperative. Even the smallest
error is stepped-up 24 times. If you don't like the adjustable draftsman
triangle, buy the ubiquitous 30/60/90 and 45/90 plastic drafting
triangles.
Also take a closer look at the Incra protractor, it accepts a 5 mm lead
pencil lead for making precise layouts. I have their 6" T ruler, and
it's great.
> I hope this suggestion helps somebody out of one of those seemingly
> insurmountable screw-ups.
When making a segmented project having an even number of pieces,
separately, only assemble
enough segments to make-up 1/2 of the circumference. Stroke each half
assembly on a sheet
of sandpaper on a flat surface. This will assure you of two 180� halfs.
Lastly, having set and transferred the desired angle to the machine, you
must now present the stock in an unwavering manner. You will need hold
ins and hold downs, as well as facing the miter gauge with sandpaper. A
4" high fence on the miter gauge with stop blocks also helps.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:45 AM
To: Steve Garbini; Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Hollowing turning tools
-----Original Message-----
Steve wrote
I've been looking at hollowing tools for a long time and am getting
ready to purchase. It appears to me that the Sorby RS2000 system
would suit my needs (hollowing and limited bowl saver features) and
I'm looking for feedback on it.
Anyone actually have or use them? Comments on other brands of
hollowing tools?
Steve
I brought the Sorby RS 2000 system some time ago. I got it home and spent a
couple of hours trying it out. After this time I put the whole lot back in
the box and put it under my work bench with all the other gadgets and gizmos
I have that I would get round to using one day.
A few months latter I was turning a vessel and was having trouble hollowing
it out with my usual method so got out the RS2000 to see what it could do.
At first I had problems with it and almost gave it up again but I kept on
trying with it and suddenly it started to work for me. I learned not to
push on it too hard but to use a more gentle approach. I really did move wood
very quickly. And the inside finish was smooth. It is a matter of practice
with it and the more you use it the better you can make it perform. The
hooker tool will take different shaped cutters and you can grind these to
your own preferred shape. Also with the system you get the deep plunging
slicer and you can get two, three or even more bowls out of the same piece
of wood. The number depends on how good you are with the tool.
You can also use the slicer as a parting tool. There is also with the
system a chatter tool with two different cutters and a shear scraper. I now
use the tool often but it does not replace my other gouges and scrapers. No
one tool will do that. The tool is well made and powerful. Richard Sorby
the makers will always help with advice and they do have a E mail address
though I don'temember what it is. A search will find it for you.
Just remember, this tool takes a bit of perseverance with to learn how to
use it because the technique is different than for conventional tools
There are other hollowing tools on the market as you know. Tools like the
"Woodcut" from New Zealand. I have used that one and it is good, cuts well
and is not prone to digins but it is limited to being what it was designed
to do, hollow out.
I hope this helps some
From: Byron w Clinkingbeard [byronclink at juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: hooking up the dust collector
Thanks to all who responded with advice regarding my choice of a dust
collector. I ordered the 1200cfm Delta with 30 micron bags. I'm going
to enclose it in an area of its own, and place fine filters between it
and the rest of the shop. That should cut down on noise and dust, too.
Now, another question.
I'm not a plumber! I stopped by Home Depot, and they don't have any
fittings for 4" sewer pipe. Do they make the same types of fittings for
sewer pipe that they make for schedule 40? By the time I buy all the
adapters to use SCH40 fittings with the cheap 4" sewer pipe, it would be
cheaper just to go SCH40 throughout. But....if I can find the flimsy y's
and t's to go on the cheap flimsy pipes, that's the way to go. Before I
drive all over town trying to find these things, would somebody tell me
if they even exist? I went back and found several things archived on
TheOak about grounding the pvc pipe. Some say that it can be grounded
just as effectively on the outside of the pipe. Others disagree
strongly. Has anybody ever had problems with grounding on the outside of
the pipe? Thanks for your help!
Byron Clinkingbeard
ByronClink at juno.com
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:28 PM
To: 'Byron w Clinkingbeard'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: hooking up the dust collector
Byron,
Those who have been on the list a while will recall that this
generated some "lively" discussions. So here goes .....
I was one of the ones who defended using PVC pipe for a central DC
system. It is just as safe as metal piping and is cheaper. The caveat
is, it must be grounded correctly. That's the key right there. But,
then again, metal must be grounded correctly too.
Anyway, my system sounds exactly like yours is going to be. I built
a closet for the DC which was really nothing but a big box. I put
filters in the doors for the return air. I used sewer pipe for the runs
and a mix of schedule 40 connections and sewer connections at the
joints. So, yes, there are sewer connects to be found. I just can't
recall what the mix of sched. 40 to sewer was. I built my own blast
gates and have them at every machine.
As far as grounding goes. I advise you to research it and don't just
take my word for it. Having said that, I will tell you I did extensive
research into this because of the gravity of the error if I was wrong.
"Woodshop Dust Control" by Sandor Nagyszalanczy is a good book to
read. Also, Wood Mag had an article on this specific subject and
grounding was covered (I could get the issue if you need it). I
grounded the outside of the pipe, wrapping my ground wire in a spiral
about every 4-6 inches. I then put aluminum tape (the HVAC kind) over
the wire to keep it against the pipe. The wire runs from the DC to
every machine. Although, it is not necessary to make an A-B connection,
I did it anyway. By that I mean, you do not have to have a closed loop
(DC to machine) in order for the static electricity to go to ground. I
tend to overkill so my ground wire attaches to the ground for my house,
the machines, the DC, and several electrical boxes that are grounded.
The reason you don't want to run wire inside of the pipe is because of
blockage and the risk that the debris will eventually break the wire in
two. In PVC, static electricity runs to the outside of the pipe. An
excellent test is the "hair on your arm" test (that's the official
scientific name :-) ). If you run your DC with ungrounded PVC, you can
put your arm next to the pipe and you will see the hair stand up by the
static electricity. If the pipe is properly grounded, you'll never feel
it.
Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Chuck
From: Mein Name [JosefSeidl at t-online.de]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 1:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Chuck
Since I'm considering a similar project, your info comes in handy.
Is it enough to wrap the grounding wire on the outside of the plastic
pipe? - I seem to recall having read an artivle, where the author
recommended running a grounding wire inside the pipe.
Also I want to use vacuum cleaner style corrugated hose to go from the rigid
pipe for example to my RAS. - Do I need to run the grounding wire all the
way along the corrugated hose, or is it enough to just have it on the rigid
pipe?
Thankls in advance for your comments
Regards
Josef H. Seidl
Kn�llwald, Germany
JosefSeidl at t-online.de
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 7:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Mein Name
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Josef just nudged a few of my remaining grey cells, [I attended the
company Chrismas party last night] presently I am only useing the
corrugated hose. This is reinforced with steel inside the plastic,
could this be used for grounding/earthing? Obviously would have to be
joined to more wire to finish the installation at both ends but if it
worked it would be a very tidy method.
Andy just thinking aloud in damp Georgetown, Ont, Canada.
snip
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 10:14 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Andy,
I would lose the corrugated hose just as fast as I possibly could........the
amount of turbulence created by the convolutions in the hose probably chop
the dust collecting ability of the system in half (ever seen how much lint
collects in those drier vents?). Of course if you're a tightwad like me,
you're still rolling the shop vac from station to station 8^).
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 11:19 AM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Jim ignore my last post, on closer inspection what I thought was
steel inside the vinyl hose is actually a hard springy plastic. And
yes I am a tight wad, laid out the bucs for the Delta1.5 hp dust
collector but don't want to spend on the correct tubing. Should read
"false economy" here.
Andy in Georgetown Ont, Can.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 12:05 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Frederik and Andy,
While fluid dynamics is not my area of experise, I did srudy it quite a bit
back in my "hot rod" days. I think the HVAC guys could be a little more
exact, but the main part of the deal would be tubing size/cfm rating......go
too large with the tubing and the air velocity drops enough for larger
particles to drop out of the air flow and collect in the tubing. Add an
elbow and the problems really get bad.
I would recommend that you keep turns to a minimum (a 90 deg. is worth about
the same as 10 feet of run, if memory serves correct). I think it was Don W.
that recommended using 2 45's to get around a corner thereby increasing the
radius of the turn plus reducing some of the turbulence. Remember that when
the particles get to the corner, their natural tendency is to continue in a
straight line (running smack into the outside radius).
Logic would also dictate that the blast gates *must* be the same diameter as
the tubing. A restriction here would reduce flow velocity further upstream.
You may also consider taking a field trip to a facility that handles bulk
products in pnuematic trailers. Several years ago, I took a break from
mechanics and drove truck for a while hauling salt, flyash, fertilizer and
animal feed in just such a trailer. These system usually have a truck
mounted blower to push the product through the tubing but I would think it
would be the same deal. Vertical runs didn't seem to bother anywhere near as
much as tight turns and in some places we were blowing through 50 meters of
4" tubing. Oh, yeah....smooth joints at the couplings is good, too.
For machine hook-ups you could try some of the industrial supply houses for
appropriate hose.....I would think for most stationary applications having
something a little bit stiff wouldn't hurt too much and would certainly add
to the capacity of the system, IMHO.
I'm really not sure about the grounding strap part. Here in Alberta it is
against the law to dispense a class 3 flammable liquid (gasoline) into a
plastic pail WITH A METAL HANDLE - it is really quite specific on that
point. This is a static electicity problem and has been the cause of some
pretty nasty petroleum bulk station fires. Plastic pails with plastic
handles are not mentioned in the articles I have read. Interestingly enough,
a product called Dical (a livestock feed supplement) was the only product
that we had to use a ground strap on our trailers to load or unload (they
also insisted we shut the trucks off) but I never did find what the specific
reason was. I would think that a copper wire wrapped tightly around one end
of the PVC tubing would suffice and it could be grounded through your
electrical panel (remember that 6 foot rod you pounded into the ground?).
OK...sorry to get long winded but that 'bout picks this rusty ol' brain
clean (form what I can recall, anyway). I hope I haven't just rehashed what
everyone already knew.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 11:32 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Frederik, Andy, Jim, et al,
Ordinary PVC or ABS plastic pipe (45 and 90 degree) elbows
have a tight turn radius which slows the fluid flow (air or
water) through the turn too much for critical systems.
There is a whole family of fittings which have a much larger
turn radius. These are called *sweeps*. They ease the turn
dramatically. I replaced the ordinary elbows in my DC
system with sweeps and significantly improved the process.
Check these out at your friendly plumbing supplier.
In regards to the grounding question, I have previously
mentioned that I am a strong advocate of grounding
everything in a shop, including and specifically the DC
system. Anyone interested in my views on the subject is
invited to contact me privately, and I promise to bore you
with all the details.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:20 PM
To: Moose and Betty
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Moose;
You are very correct WRT using what I call long radius elbows. I was
not aware that you could get them at a plumbing supplier. I do know
that they are available at an electrical supplier. The problem is that
in the size I would want - 4" - they are very expensive. What size do
you get from the plumbing supplier and what is the approx. cost?
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 8:20 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Moose and Betty; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Harvey,
Around here there is a huge sheet metal outfit that specifically works
in all sizes of ducting for the commercial building HVAC trade and this
includes duct that I saw there which was around 36" or more in diameter
for things other than HVAC.
Anyhow, they have them in cast aluminum 90� (1.5 times) for about
$15.-20.00 each. Whats nice about those is that they are extremely
smooth on the inside. Actually they consist of two half diameters and
welded together and flanged. They also make them gored in any "long"
radius desired. I have some of those too, and mine are 1.5 (5 gore) and
also 2 times the radius. Best as I remember, which ain't much, they were
about $10.00-12.00 each but I forget what the gauge is, perhaps 22. I
know it was not the thinnest I could get, and the gauge had a lot to do
with the cost. 6" 2 times, 1 piece no gore, I think ran me about $25.00
each. I'm really unsure about the costs.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 8:40 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: hooking up the dust collector
Harvey, et al.,
The ones I got from a plumbing supplier are 4 inch ABS waste
line sweeps and cost about 10 per cent more than ordinary
elbows.
10Q,
Moose
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 2:29 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: How do you store Handplanes?
I have several handplanes, that I do not use as much as I'd like, for two
reasons. 1) I haven't made a decent bench yet and 2) Current storage
solution does not make for easy access.
I can fix the bench problem, and will be doing so as I can get to it. I get
by with a shooting board for the small stuff. For the medium to big stuff I
just use the power jointer. But the storage solution for handplanes has me
scratching my head.
The current method I use is to mount (the majority of) them vertically, on
end, with their soles against the walls, having a small "shoe" on the bottom
and another at the top, so that the plane must be lifted up, then the bottom
of the sole brought away from wall, then the plane is lowered, thus freeing
the top of the sole from its shoe. This is OK for the lower planes, but
the upper planes are usually out of reach and difficult to get to. I can
see every plane and (if I were tall enough - as if 6'2" is not tall
enough...) each plane can be removed with one hand.
I have very limited wall space still available, but some. The sizes of
planes range from those little bronze spoke shaves used by pattern makers
through a couple of #8's.
What are some of the storage solutions you all have come up with? A
solution I would prefer would have the following characteristics:
1) Easy to visually find the plane I need
2) One handed access (does not require two hands to remove or replace)
3) Take as little wall space as possible
As I write this, I'm thinking maybe a hinged unit that might have storage in
the door(s) as well as the base unit (cabinet?).
Thanks, Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:14 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: How do you store Handplanes?
Hi, Todd:
My hand planes are stored laying on their sides on top of the cabinet
that rests on the stretchers of my workbench. They are accessible one
handed, and take up no wall space, but are not visible unless you bend
down and peer under the bench top. They are also right where they are
generally used, i.e. at the bench.
I actually had to slightly modify the front apron on my bench to make
the space on top of the cabinet more accessible by trimming 1" off the
bottom edge. This allows the planes to slide in and out easily, where
before it was kind of tight with the bigger planes. Actually, to see
a picture of bench, go to:
ftp://theoak.com/pub/shoppro/workbench.html
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
Forest, Ontario.
From: Thomas Bunetta [ears at ewol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:21 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: How do you store Handplanes?
<snip>
>1) Easy to visually find the plane I need
>2) One handed access (does not require two hands to remove or replace)
>3) Take as little wall space as possible
>As I write this, I'm thinking maybe a hinged unit that might have storage
in
>the door(s) as well as the base unit (cabinet?).
Todd,
I made a cabinet with sliding doors. The 22" jointer determined the depth.
The jack and bench planes are along side, all with a small (similar to a
split 1/2" dowel) strip at the heel to slightly elevate it, keeping the
blades from touching. Each is housed in it's own space with low dividers so
when I get my shop built they are already in their packing for the trip...
no banging into each other.
Longest planes at the right and progressively shorter to the left.
My block and scraping planes are on a tray at the left that can be removed
if desired to reach the "storage" area.
The spacing places them just behind the door(s). A small area behind has a
few "fixer uppers" or potential garage sale planes and storage for spare
irons and blades.
They stay dust free (sorta, sometimes I fergit to shut the door)
The top doubles as an additional shelf.
Using the "run what you brung" philosophy I used 3/4" tongue and groove
flooring plywood (hey! It's what I had on hand<G>) but 1/2" would make it
lighter. The top, bottom, rear and sides are rabbeted into some fir that was
taking up floor space so no plywood edges show. Hard board with 3/4" finger
holes and slots in the top and bottom make up the doors which overlap 1/2".
Tom
PS
Pau Lope won't plane worth a Da__!
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:45 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: How do you store Handplanes?
Todd,
I think your current method is good. Something like mail slots might take
up less wall space, but would require a lot of depth, much of it wasted on
the smaller planes if you make it deep enough for the #8s. It's kinda
mickey mouse, but I have several of mine in Rubbermaid tubs that hold 3 or 4
planes, stacked under benches or on shelves. Not a 1-handed solution. I
have my most used planes sitting in an overhead cabinet, lined up by size,
from big to little. Must admit that my 60 1/2 seldom leaves my bench.
Actually I think your problem is a stealth gloat. Too many planes for one
wall of your shop? Poor baby!
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com [mailto:tburch at cdbsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 2:29 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: How do you store Handplanes?
I have several handplanes, that I do not use as much as I'd like, for two
reasons. 1) I haven't made a decent bench yet and 2) Current storage
solution does not make for easy access.
I can fix the bench problem, and will be doing so as I can get to it. I get
by with a shooting board for the small stuff. For the medium to big stuff I
just use the power jointer. But the storage solution for handplanes has me
scratching my head.
The current method I use is to mount (the majority of) them vertically, on
end, with their soles against the walls, having a small "shoe" on the bottom
and another at the top, so that the plane must be lifted up, then the bottom
of the sole brought away from wall, then the plane is lowered, thus freeing
the top of the sole from its shoe. This is OK for the lower planes, but
the upper planes are usually out of reach and difficult to get to. I can
see every plane and (if I were tall enough - as if 6'2" is not tall
enough...) each plane can be removed with one hand.
I have very limited wall space still available, but some. The sizes of
planes range from those little bronze spoke shaves used by pattern makers
through a couple of #8's.
What are some of the storage solutions you all have come up with? A
solution I would prefer would have the following characteristics:
1) Easy to visually find the plane I need
2) One handed access (does not require two hands to remove or replace)
3) Take as little wall space as possible
As I write this, I'm thinking maybe a hinged unit that might have storage in
the door(s) as well as the base unit (cabinet?).
Thanks, Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Gary Cavener (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:28 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: RE: How does GFCI work?
Time to pitch my .02 onto the shop floor. I just had a shop/garage built.
I was told by the electrician that did the basic wiring and the electrical
inspector that any circuits in the garage were supposed to be GFCI, limited
to 15 amps. My jaw dropped. Gee, what about my 240V 2HP TS, air
compressor, etc., etc.? The electrician said that he didn't think there
would be a problem with a 240 circuit or two. Not that the code allowed it,
but that he just didn't think there would be a problem. The inspector came,
looked at the wiring for two garage doors, the outside lights, a couple of
inside lights, and two receptacles. Pretty bare for a 24X36 building! As
if by magic - no smoke - all my tools are running just fine, and there's
room for more. I think having a sub-box with a 50 amp GFCI for my spa
helped Mr. Inspector be OK with the 100 amp panel that was serving 4 @100
watt light bulbs, a couple of garage door openers and 2 @ 15 amp GFCI
outlets.
I don't know whether the "next to no power in the garage" thing is an Oregon
thing or not. I would assume that they are following a national electrical
code. By the way, this building is attached to my home, but on a separate
panel.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Sherrill [mailto:sherritp at sagian.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 7:57 AM
To: 'ssug'; 'theoak'
Subject: RE: How does GFCI work?
I started this thread talking about the wiring in my shop. The gist of it
is that I used a 4-conductor cable to wire two circuits (two hots, a
neutral, and a ground--so the circuits share a neutral and ground). I also
want these circuits to be GFCI protected.
Okay, I feel better now that I've looked at my sources again. The Black &
Decker Advanced Wiring book (they sell lots of different home-improvement
books at your home center) has different diagrams (pictures, actually) of
different circuits. One that they show is for the kitchen, which needs to
have two circuits and be GFCI protected. I wired my shop following the
recommendation in the book. The two GFCI outlets are first on each circuit,
and both the ground and the neutral are pigtailed to each outlet.
I think I missed two things: first, they use a double-pole breaker. This
is definitely necessary and I bought one yesterday. Secondly, it mentions
the circuit to be for small appliances. Is this just a label for the
circuit in the kitchen, or is it a code requirement that circuits run in
this manner be only for small appliances (they're 20 amp circuits in the
photo)?
Finally, I saw dual-pole GFCI breakers for Pools/Spa's. These were for 50
Amps (~ $100). Do they have something like this for 20 Amps? I think
that's exactly what I need (I'm not convinced that the outlet GFCI solution
will work with higher loads).
Tim Sherrill
sherritp at sagian.com
From: Gardner [marchave at netins.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 7:05 PM
To: Woodworking email List
Subject: How to finish Soft Maple
I'm looking for any tips out there on how to stain and finish a 3 drawer chest;
made from what I believe to be soft maple. I bought the thing at an estate
auction for next to nothing since its finish was in pretty bad shape and the top
had been removed by the previous owner in preperation of refinishing.
The previous finish was one of those "turn of the century" finishes. I don't
know how they did it but over the years, the stuff turns black and starts to
alligator. I have removed all the old finish and am down to bare wood, sanded
to 180 grit. I'm about to raise the grain and if all goes well, I'll start the
"finish" this weekend.
The wood itself has a few black streaks running thru it so I'm thinking I'm
going to need to "stain" it with something dark to help minimize the black
streaks. I'm certain it's part of the wood and not left over finish.
Soft maple is one of the softer hard woods (according to Nick Engler's book) and
I'm wondering if I don't need to treat it with a wash coat of shellac to get an
even stain absorption. Or perhaps use one of the gel stains. It's final
resting place will be either as an "end table" in the family room or as a side
table near one of the kid's beds.
As I said the top is off so I'll probably practice on the underneath side. I'm
just looking for a running start by listening to what others have done. Thanks
in advance for any help.
The Gardners @ March Avenue
Douglas, Tammy, David & Gwen
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 7:40 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: How to finish Soft Maple
Hi, Douglas:
I made the trestle and aprons for my workbench out of soft maple, but
I applied a Danish Oil finish instead of staining. I can tell you
that it soaks up oil like a sponge. I literally could not keep a wet
surface, especially on the end grain. From this I think it is safe to
assume that a spit coat of sealer would be a good idea.
I just this week turned a couple of fairly large bowls from soft
maple and applied walnut oil as the finish. It did not seem to
disappear quite as fast as the Danish Oil on the work bench, but still
soaked in quite quickly. The walnut oil really made the bowls look
nice, and the dark streaks are a feature in them, rather than
something to be hidden. On a dresser or end table, though, I can
definitely understand wanting to blend them in.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 11:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: If I were a carpenter
If I were a carpenter
And you were my SWMBO
Would you marry me anyway
Would you feel my dado?
If I work my hands in wood
Would you still love me?
Would you buy my tablesaw
And my biscuit jointer?
Sears my love through loneliness
Sears my love through sorrow
See me slaving in the garage
Building our tomorrow?
And if I were Norm Abram
And you were called Robin
Would you love my mitre saw
Would you hold my bobbin?
And if I looked like Prince Charles
And you were Camilla
Could you go to beauty school
And look less like Bob Vila?
So if I build furniture
And you watch cable
Will you kiss my Rabbet
And dust my table?
If I were a carpenter
And you were my SWMBO
Could we try to dovetail joint
And build a tomorrow?
And if I work my hands in wood
And my tenon you adore
Would you offer me your mortice
And never ask for any more?
Sears my love through loneliness
Sears my love through sorrow
I love you like a vise
How much d'ya think we could borrow?
And if I were a carpenter
And you were my SWMBO
I would paint my router
A yellow Dewalt tomorrow.....
etc....
With apologies to Tim Hardin
Ray Berry
www.ipw.com/lochness
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 3:27 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: In praise of Circular Saw Jigs
Well, last week I was scrambling for a bench top tablesaw to take with me
for a (charity) job I had to do on Saturday. I didn't get one, so I took my
trusty Sears, 5 1/2" circular saw and my homemade rip fence.
The job was to build some cabinet doors for roller skate cabinets. The
existing doors were nothing more than a sheet of 1/2" ply, cut into two
4'x4' pieces, each one hinged on either side of the cabinets, then a hasp
screwed to one door and the swivel screwed to the other door. Loose,
warped, sagging, gross.
I've used the rip fence I made a few times, but it really got a workout
Saturday. I probably made 40-50 or so cuts in 1/2" plywood with the saw
using the fence, and each one was perfect. I really don't have much
experience with a hand held circular saw, and now my confidence has been
raised a little bit.
The next jig to make for it will be a 90 degree jig for cross cutting 1x4's,
2x4's, etc. Then, I'll make an adjustable jig so if I need to duplicate odd
angles, I can set it with a screw and get repeat angles accurately.
I don't know about you all, but without these homemade "jigs", my using a
hand held circular saw would be a fight every time.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 7:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: In praise of Circular Saw Jigs
Snip of Todd waxing poetic 'bout circle saw jigs...
The best circle saw jig I've ever used is a Zero Board. It's flawless
for cutting to a line. Here are two URLs on how to make them.
http://www.open.org/hughesa/w3-01-96.htm
http://members.aol.com/woodmiser1/sawbd.htm
Here is another link to a page of saw jigs.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9411HIWSAP.html
Keith Bohn
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 7:49 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Inca
About 15-20 years ago I brought an INCA 8 1/4 jointer. A year after that I
brought the planer attachment. You have to push the wood through the planer
head. Quite a job as basically you have to push on the one end and pull on
the other end, so I hardly used it.
The planer is good and I still use it, but, I wondered if anyone else ever
purchased this
planer head and how it worked for them.
John
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 4:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: INCA parts
>I'm wondering if anyone knows where (if anywhere) INCA parts can be
>purchased these days.
Garrett Wade Co.
161 Avenue of the Americas
New York NY 10013
USA & Canada Toll Free Phone (800) 221-2942
USA & Canada Toll Free Fax (800) 566-9525
Customers outside the USA & Canada
Phone (212) 807-1155
Fax (212) 255-8552
Email mail at garrettwade.com
http://www.garrettwade.com
or...
Injecta Machinery
2217 El Sol Avenue
Altadena, CA 91001
Keith Bohn
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 3:46 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; MRASP at aol.com
Subject: Info on Purdy brushes
<A HREF="http://members.esslink.com/~kentpaint/PurdyBrushes.html">Click here:
Paint brushes</A> or if that doesn't work <g> try
http://members.esslink.com/~kentpaint/PurdyBrushes.html
I buy all my brushes at Porter Paint Company. And believe that some Home
Depot stores carry them.
Rosie, who HTH
From: Ralph Bowden, SSI Education [ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:36 AM
To: the Oak
Subject: Instant Patina
Is any one familiar with this company or its products. If so whata you
think? Sorta sounds good but is the best method for patina just old
fashion elbow grease and time.
http://members.aol.com/patinafc/patina/patina1.html
--
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 6:49 PM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: IRC
Is the Oak Factory IRC still active. Down loaded the software, think I followed all the instruction, but no one seems to be home. Not sure if I am in the right place, May have ended up in a chat room for monks with a vow of silence.
Ken Martin
From: Kip Yeager [kip at theoak.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 8:05 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: IRC
Hi Ken,
First of all... IRC #woodworking does not belong to theoak. IRC is free to
all internet users. #woodworking is a channel founded by Joe Johns and is
currently overseen by Doug Smith and Barbara Gill. Neither is a member of
this list but they both do a damned fine job of filling the shoes of their
predecesor Bob Methelis (even though neither has achieved the level of
utter modesty Bob managed :-)))
Next, the best time to be on #woodworking is on Friday nights from around
8:30CST until... Appropriately enough, that is when "Friday Night Trivia"
happens! The objective is to be the first to answer 50 questions. This
endevour can last from weeks to months and the winner is named
"GranPuBuh!!" and he/she is the one you see on theoak home page
representing #woodworking on IRC!
Be there on Friday night and members will tell you when to be there on
other nights! Have a great time with a great bunch of woodworking folks and
join in the fun!! If you know how to ask woodworking trivia questions...
contact dgill at myhost.ccsinc.com or (Chuck Ring help me out here... I can't
find Doug's address) and volunteer to host a great time for all!!!
#woodworking takes place on Idealnet and information can be found at
http://theoak.com/joeirc.html.
Thanks,
Kip
At 09:48 PM 10/20/98 -0400, Ken Martin wrote:
>Is the Oak Factory IRC still active. Down loaded the software, think I
followed all the instruction, but no one seems to be home. Not sure if I
am in the right place, May have ended up in a chat room for monks with a
vow of silence.
>
>Ken Martin
>
>
>
The Oak Factory Woodworker's Mailing List
http://theoak.com http://theoak.com/mdomo.html
Kip Yeager Groves, Texas USA 409-962-1514
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 8:23 PM
To: Kip Yeager
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: IRC
Kip,
The address I believe Doug Smith can be reached at:
smithfam at bellsouth.net
Chuck
Kip Yeager wrote:
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> First of all... IRC #woodworking does not belong to theoak. IRC is free to
> all internet users. #woodworking is a channel founded by Joe Johns and is
> currently overseen by Doug Smith and Barbara Gill. Neither is a member of
> this list but they both do a damned fine job of filling the shoes of their
> predecesor Bob Methelis (even though neither has achieved the level of
> utter modesty Bob managed :-)))
>
> Next, the best time to be on #woodworking is on Friday nights from around
> 8:30CST until... Appropriately enough, that is when "Friday Night Trivia"
> happens! The objective is to be the first to answer 50 questions. This
> endevour can last from weeks to months and the winner is named
> "GranPuBuh!!" and he/she is the one you see on theoak home page
> representing #woodworking on IRC!
>
> Be there on Friday night and members will tell you when to be there on
> other nights! Have a great time with a great bunch of woodworking folks and
> join in the fun!! If you know how to ask woodworking trivia questions...
> contact dgill at myhost.ccsinc.com or (Chuck Ring help me out here... I can't
> find Doug's address) and volunteer to host a great time for all!!!
>
> #woodworking takes place on Idealnet and information can be found at
> http://theoak.com/joeirc.html.
>
> Thanks,
> Kip
>
> At 09:48 PM 10/20/98 -0400, Ken Martin wrote:
> >Is the Oak Factory IRC still active. Down loaded the software, think I
> followed all the instruction, but no one seems to be home. Not sure if I
> am in the right place, May have ended up in a chat room for monks with a
> vow of silence.
> >
> >Ken Martin
> >
> >
> >
>
> The Oak Factory Woodworker's Mailing List
> http://theoak.com http://theoak.com/mdomo.html
> Kip Yeager Groves, Texas USA 409-962-1514
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:57 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; jthorner at garlic.com
Subject: RE: Is there a good reason not to use do
How about a blind mortise and tenon joint, but then on the "show side",
inlay a fake dovetail/pin. That way, you get the proven joint for this
cross grain situation and the look you want too.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 8:03 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
I'm about to start constructing a mirror to hang on the wall above my wife's
walnut dresser. I've chosen some nice pieces of local figured walnut. My
original intention had been to do some picture frame like molding work.
However, given the lovely multi-color figure of the wood my thinking now is
to make a very simple frame which allows to wood to show.
The one decorative touch I would like to use is to join the four corners
with exposed dovetails. All of the books seems to say that one should use
dovetails for carcass type construction and m/t joints for face frame type
situations. Is there a specific reason for this? What problems might I
expect from going against this common wisdom?
Another alternative considered is the pegged m/t joint. If there is some
serious reason why the dovetail would be a horrible choice than the pegged
m/t will be my fall back.
Dimensions are approximately 2 ft. x 3 ft. Stock thickness is 3/4 after
final planing. Stock width is ~2 inches.
I'm planning to set the mirror into a 1/4" deep, 1/2" wide rabbet. The
mirror back will then be covered with a sheet of 1/8" baltic birch plywood
set into a second rabbet surrounding the mirror's rabbet.
Your suggestions would be most appreciated.
TIA, John
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:01 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
John,
My guess would be that M/T is usually recommended in the case of thicker
stocks, longer stocks, anywhere there'll be more potential longitudinal
wood movement than in carcass construction. Aside from style, Dovetails
obviously are best where the material (sheets, well stabilised stock) is
stable and where the end use is that of frequent pulling/opening such as
in drawers. For your mirror, I'd do what you intend though. It'd be
beautiful and different. Just watch your stock.
There is never a good reason not to do anything, only previous reasons
which haven't met the challenge.
Frederik
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:25 AM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
Howdy John
First, don't forget your other option of splined miter joints for your
mirror.
As to your question, I'll take a stab at saying that you are just reading
too much into those books. I think that what they are saying is that M/T
joints are Generally used for face frames and Dovetails GENERALLY used for
carcass construction.
I've seen and done more then a few face frame with stub M/T joints that work
just fine and very seldom use a dovetail joint for anything but drawers (I
do them by hand and drawers takes me long enough without using them in the
basic construction too). There are two reasons know of for choosing one
joint over another. One is strength for use (including longevity) and the
other is looks. Since the first isn't a real factor in your mirror go with
the warm and fuzzy I'd say.
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
Hi, John:
I am not entirely sure what you mean by exposed dovetails in this
case. I can't imagine cutting dovetails into the side of a board
instead of the end, because the tails or pins would be all short grain
and would break off. You might get away with dovetailing a mitered
joint, but even here there would be a lot of short grain pieces that
would be very fragile. If you mean dovetail like a dovetailed bridle
joint, then this is just a variation of a mortise an tenon, and really
wouldn't show at all.
I guess I just can't visualize what you mean on this one.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:13 AM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
How about M/T with "butterflies" cut into the joint? With contrasting color?
Just an idea...
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:00 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
John,
This is not a suggestion, but it is an answer to your question regarding
the dovetail decorative touch.
There is no reason that I can think of that you could not use a through
dovetail on your mitered mirror frame as long as you have decent
thickness and the wood does not chip or fragment too easily. No reason
outside of the difficulty, that is. And as you said, it is a decorative
touch and not for strength that you want them.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:59 PM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
I think the dovetails would look good and I see no reason
why you can not use them. However, will the look of
dovetails match the style of the other pieces in the room?
(A rhetorical question.)
Some years ago I made a similar mirror frame as a Christmas
present for my favorite aunt. I made it out of Walnut with
half-lap joints. While it was on the bench I thought it
looked too plain, so I made bow tie spline inlays at each
joint. The inlays were walnut stained oak. She lived a
long way off so I shipped the finished project to her. She
sent a very complimentary Thank You note, praising my
workmanship. When I visited her several years later the
mirror was not in sight. So I asked about it. She said it
did not match any of her furniture so she gave it to her
daughter as a housewarming gift because it would match her
furniture style. I told her that I thought that was a
reasonable thing to do, and it really did not bother me a
bit. Until I saw my cousin's house a few days later. It
was (and still is) decorated in a style I can only describe
as "Early Junkyard". I was devastated, but learned an
important lesson. Sometimes style is as important as
workmanship, and sometimes more so. If I had left out the
bow tie inlays my aunt would have proudly hung it over her
Walnut dressing table and treasured it. Go figure.
That is why I mentioned style when you said that this would
be an piece added to a room.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 3:42 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirror frame?
-----Original Message-----
From: Moose and Betty <moose at northrim.net>
>I think the dovetails would look good and I see no reason
>why you can not use them. However, will the look of
>dovetails match the style of the other pieces in the room?
>(A rhetorical question.)
>
That is a very good and appropriate question. Luckily in this particular
case I've taken that into account. The dresser in question is a commercial
walnut piece from the Bob Timberlake line of Lexington's high end furniture
(some of the overpriced stuff I was grumping about a few days ago). We
purchased it about five years ago. The dresser style is clean and simple
with only a few bits of ornamentation. The drawers, for instance, are flat
fronts with fingernail edge treatments, and machine made half blind
dovetails inside. Design wise I quiet like most of the Timberlake pieces.
Not quite Mission, not quiet Shaker, but still embodying the basic
principles of both without necessarily using the specific visual features of
either.
I also have the advantage of being able to discuss the design idea and
choices with my wife. At the moment the intended sticks of wood are
"joined" with masking tape on my drawing table so that we can both look at
them and play around with orientation. I've also made some sketches of
various options for discussion. Of course the finished object will look a
bit different than we have been able to envision it ... that always happens.
In any case, thank you for asking the question. My heart sank when I read
the part about your piece being suited for the Early Junkyard collection.
Ouch. "Cast not thine pearls before swine."
John
From: Gregory Champlin [gcha44 at CBOT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 9:39 AM
To: jthorner at garlic.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Is there a good reason not to use dovetails for a mirrorframe?
John,
Just a quick thought that I had about your question is the wood movement. In a carcass the wood is oriented in the same direction. with the frame construction the grain would be crossing each other. I'm no expert but everything that I've read so far seems to indicate that this would not be a good thing. The pins and tails would be "fighting" each other with each change in humidity. Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say here. I know what I'm trying to say but don't know if I'm expressing it correctly.
Regards,
Greg
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 2:23 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jet 14" BS, W/Riser & 1/8" blade
On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:01:48 -0600, tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
>I have the Jet 14" closed stand band saw, w/riser block. I mostly do
>resawing (and, I'm not overly excited about its resaw performance, but
>that's a whole different thread), but recently needed to make some tight
>radius cuts. I installed my 1/8" band for the first time, and found that I
>cannot adjust the "cool block"/bearing assembly out far enough, or track the
>1/8" band back far enough, so that the two will meet. So, the 1/8" band
>just kinda travels out in space with no side-to-side or rear bearing
>support.
I have the same saw. But I have only had it a couple of months and
have not put a 1/8" blade on it yet.
BUT get "Bandsaw Handbook" by Mark Dunginske. It has all of the
information about checking the alignment of the wheels and how to
properly track a blade.
As to your bearing I take it to an industrial bearing company (ck the
yellow pages under bearings) and get a replacement, but get a SEALED
instead of SHIELDED bearing.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 3:33 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jet 14" BS, W/Riser & 1/8" blade
Todd,
The guy is as full as crap as the one who told the fella that the motor
controller would work on his capaciter motor.
It seems from these two posts and others not very recent, that Woodcraft
has salesmen that are less than knowledgeable in the craft. Since he is
an instructor, I guess thats whats called "the blind leading the blind".
Next time you're there, ask him to show you how it's done.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 4:02 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Jet 14" BS, W/Riser & 1/8" blade
I have the Jet 14" closed stand band saw, w/riser block. I mostly do
resawing (and, I'm not overly excited about its resaw performance, but
that's a whole different thread), but recently needed to make some tight
radius cuts. I installed my 1/8" band for the first time, and found that I
cannot adjust the "cool block"/bearing assembly out far enough, or track the
1/8" band back far enough, so that the two will meet. So, the 1/8" band
just kinda travels out in space with no side-to-side or rear bearing
support.
Does anyone else have this problem? I called my local Woodcraft where I
bought the saw 2 years ago, and the guy there (who also happens to teach the
band saw class...) said yeah, the saws they have at the store do that too.
He saw this as a positive, in that it allows him to make much tighter
radius cuts since he can flex the band during the cuts, implying that I only
need the side-to-side and rear blade support when resawing.
I figured it might be time for the doctor approved "second opinion".
Oh, and as far as the lower bearing is concerned, it's already toast.
Woodcraft guy told me to call the local Delta repair center for a new
one...
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:51 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Jet Dust Collector Review, $200
Folks:
I stopped by a local woodworking tool seller in Green Bay today, big sale,
all factory reps on hand, radio, hot dogs, etc. Needing a decent set of
router bits, I thought I'd stop by on my lunch hour.
Well, I still need those bits.
Jet came out with a small dust collector, model JSL-610DC, designed for a
small shop like mine. Rather portable, weighs about 50 lbs. Similar to their
single stage collector, but with a 3/4 horse moter vs a full horse, and
smaller. Uses the same 4" hose as do most. Nice thing for me, besides the
size, was the price. Saved over $30 bucks. Getting the ol' bank card out, I
had one loaded into the back of the F-150. Total cost was well under $200
bucks! Lower than some shop vac's I'd looked into!
My two middle children and I put it together tonight. Took about 1/2 hour,
some of which was spent organizing parts - so all the bolts of a kind were
together, etc. I've got a Jet TS and 6" jointer, so I was expecting to have
all the pieces and extra screws, etc. This was the case again. That's a good
thing!
Instructions were clear, everything fit nicely. Hooked the hose to my TS,
got a piece of Black Walnut. Turned it on. Checked to see if it was
running.... QUIET! OK, so I didn't really need to check, it does make noise,
but MUCH quieter than my Craftman shop vac! Turned on the saw, ripped the
Walnut. Hardly any sawdust on my arm when done, and I was amazed at the dust
swirling in the top bag. I'm very satisfied!
Overall, a nice tool. Should cut down on the dust the shop vac can't get to.
Got some ideas for hooking it up to the floor attachment of the shop vac -
should be great for picking up the mess on the floor after planing, etc.
Basement gets pretty dusty.
I've had good luck with Jet tools in the past, and this would not be the
dust collector for everyone. Esp those with larger shops and more power
tools - things like planers, etc. I have limited space, so being able to
move something around is important. With the casters on the base, this will
be easy. And, it's smaller size means I can store it UNDER some things! Only
about 40" tall.
I'd also be inclined to recommend as a dedicated collector, but in a larger
shop, costs might be better served with a collection system of pipes and a
centralized collector.
Now, to find a way to tell SWMBO that I did this....
David Dahl
Sneezing less in Appleton WI
From: Richard Funnell [rfunnell at pobox.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Jigsaw choice
I'm thinking of getting a good jigsaw, and I'm torn between the fixed-base
Porter Cable, the new Porter Cable and the Bosch. I've generally found I
used my old jigsaw at 90 deg, which was a pain to set accurately. I
therefore tend to lean towards the fixed-base model PC. I also found the
blades tended to deflect on my old (cheap) saw, which makes me keen on the
concept of the blade guides on the fixed base PC.
Am I over-compensating for my experience with my old saw, or are the fixed
base and blade guides significant advantages even compared to better
quality tilt-base saws?
Richard
From: RGors1020 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:57 AM
To: rfunnell at pobox.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jigsaw choice
Richard;
I purchased the new PC tilt base jigsaw from the AWW show and I love it. I
was waffling between the PC and Dewalt and I do not regret my decision.
The PC has the abiltity to adjust the oscillating function of the blade. WOW,
it will cut a tight curve ALMOST as good as a bandsaw (IMHO). And with the
oscillation feature turned off, it cuts VERY smooth. It also has a blower
that will blow the dust away from the blade while cutting and it works well.
As for the tilt base, I think it is the easiest one to use on the market (at
least th ones I looked at). With mine, when you set it for 0 degrees or 45
degrees, that's exactly what you get.
No second thoughs here.
Bobby
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:52 AM
To: Richard Funnell
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jigsaw choice
I have the fixed base Porter Cable and it's an excellent tool... It's glass
smooth running and when used with PC blades, cuts straight and true. It also
cuts tight circles very well because the blade guides keep the blade from
twisting and PC blades are very stiff blades also. I myself have never needed to
miter cut with a jigsaw so the fixed base is perfect. I have an old crapsman
jigsaw with a swivel base I keep around (but NEVER use) just in case the need
for a miter cut ever arises. I haven't seen the new PC saw yet but I hear it
uses bosch blades... The Bosch is also a very well liked saw.. Their owners
swear by them.... It's a tough choice isn't it ?????
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Windows, A colorfull clown suit for dos......
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 9:20 AM
To: RGors1020 at aol.com
Cc: rfunnell at pobox.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jigsaw choice
I just bought the Metabo and I think it's great. Of course the only other jigsaw
I've ever owned was one I bought at Penneys about 30 years ago. Bill
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Richard Funnell
Subject: Re: Jigsaw choice
I've got the 50th anniversary Bosch. Love it. It does everything I've read
from other posts that the PC will. I like PC too, have a sander and router,
their tools are well made. However, with all the PC talk, I felt the Bosch
needed someone to praise them a bit. Personally, I don't think the Bosch
would be a tool you'd regret using. First time I used it I was amazed at the
smoothness and speed it cut the oak I was working on. WOW!
Like someone else said, tough decision!
Good luck!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: R.J. Spomer [rjspomer at email.msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:42 PM
To: Pianoman; woodworking at theoak.com; Richard Funnell
Subject: Re: Jigsaw choice
I bought the bosh pistol grip about five years a go and have now upgraded it
with their new base plate with vacuum hookup and a after market coping foot
. The coping foot works great for all of you that have the chore of
installing crown molding and especially in hardwood . that's my two cents
You can't go wrong with the bosh
RJ
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:35 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question
>May
>I suggest using a hand plane. I'm not going to get up on a soapbox, but you
>might be surprised how easy this really is; especially if the pieces you
are
>surfacing are relatively short.
I would think this (the hand plane) is the most difficult tool to master. I
have never really been patient enough to get to a point where I feel REALLY
good about it. The thing is...there are a number of conditions one must
meet to really do a good job with a hand plane. The first one (in my view)
is getting the right type (and brand) of plane. The second is probably
mastering the shaperning process. The third must be to be able to quickly
judge grain direction and cope with "unusual" grain patterns. Does anybody
have good advise to give for each of those points ? - in 1000 words or less
:-)) -
Michel
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 11:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; intellec at sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question
I'll hit a couple of spots lightly. You can find old Stanley Bailey
planes used for reasonable prices. They are a little cheaper than new,
and much higher quality. To start, use a #5 Jack to knock off any
glaring irregularities, then use a jointer - #7 or #8 to true the stock
up, and preferably a #3 or #4 to smooth it up. I would either find a
good local tool sharpener or get something like a Veritas sharpening jig
and a few different grits of sandpaper and a hunk of 1/4" plate glass to
glue the paper to and go to it. You really ought to have a pro sharpen
one for you the first time, so you get a clue about what a good plane is
capable of. By the way, the irons in the old Baileys are not
spectacular, but properly sharpened work very well.
If you don't know of a local used tool dealer, email me off-list. I
think I can steer you toward some planes.
Gary Cavener
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 4:34 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question
I'm definitely lazy today so I'll just tag along behind Gary's post.
Gary is right on with which planes and their sequence of use, but don't let
that intimidate you. I got by with a 90 year old Stanley #4 for quite a
while before I became more interested in hand tools. The multiple sizes and
settings just make the process easier and more accurate. If you want to give
this method a try, hit a couple of flea markets or check out some internet
tool dealers. The smoother sizes, #3 & #4, are easy to find for low prices.
Sharpen and flatten the blade, make sure the frog and lever cap make good
even contact, flatten the sole, adjust the frog to where you can make
see-through shavings, and go to it. I realize this approach isn't for
everybody, but its initial cost is a fraction of a planer, and the lessons
learned will stand you in good stead for the rest of your woodworking life.
I also agree with Gary's recommendation on a Veritas jig, sandpaper, and
plate glass. I just dove in, but the initial feed back from a professionally
done job might very well shorten the learning curve. However, tool
sharpening is not black magic, and I personally feel every woodworker should
learn enough about it to at least keep his hand tools sharp. You can't do
good work without sharp tools! With the various jigs available, anybody can
sharpen a chisel to razor sharp condition. And plane irons are just wide
chisels without handles 8^)
I certainly understand the trepidation on trying to recognize various grain
patterns, but I believe it is essential to becoming a competent woodworker.
I have always had a leaning toward the exotic appearing woods; anything with
curl, birdseye, or stripes. These woods always require special attention
with hand tools and sometimes even power tools. I believe the feed-back from
a hand plane or scraper will help you attain a more satisfying finished
product than just bullying through the wild grain area with a power tool.
Oops, I accidentally put one foot up on that soapbox. Sorry about that.
This thread started because of a question about using a jointer to plane
stock. If the hand plane approach isn't your bag, then I suggest (copying
Gary again) you find a professional shop to plane the stock for you. I just
don't believe you will ever get satisfactory results using the jointer for
this operation.
I didn't count'em, but I believe I stayed with the 1000 word limit 8-)
Mike
------------------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
From: Jeff Marshall [nickevan at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:30 PM
To: Gary Cavener; woodworking at theoak.com; intellec at sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Gary - you mention that the old Stanley Bailey planes are "much higher
quality" than the new ones. I've read/heard this a lot, but it has not been
explained. For those of us who are just getting started in hand planes,
please provide some specific examples of how they old planes are better than
the current Stanley professional or Record planes.
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Jeff,
Iron quality and castings are first. Old planes are heavier built,
steel is better, brass and nuts are better, frogs are better, they come
with Rosewood (pre-war2) or hardwood knobs and totes, ...I don't know,
they're just plain better like anything old in handtools. Gary ...what
did I forget?
Modern exception is Lie-Nielsen at 3 to 6 times the price (well worth
it).
Frederik
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:50 PM
To: frederik at gorge.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Frederick,
I have many hand planes that I use on a daily basis. My favorite 2 are
a old #3 Bailey with rosewood handles that I bought at a auction for
$23. The other is a new #4 Record straight from the box. With a little
tuning it's a excellent plane. I don't see this huge difference in
quality except the old ones do feel a bit better in the hand.
Planes with plastic totes cut just as good as planes with redwood
totes when sharp and tuned right.
Even as a professional using hand planes daily I still have not
bought a Lie-Nielson. I'm sure they are great planes; I just have not
found the need to buy one yet.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 8:51 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Mike,
To me a tool is an affair as much as the wood itself, so I don't limit
my choice and my appreciation to sheer need.
I agree with you that most modern planes do cut well when deburred and
fine tuned. After all they must sell for a cutting purpose and still be
called planes. I do have Records that cut very well and feel good in
the hand, 9 1/2 and 60. These 2 are very much like the old
Baileys/Stanleys blocks I've seen. Not so with Bench planes, IMSO and I
wouldn't buy a new Record or Stanley for myself. Maybe I'm too much
into insignificant details, I don't know.
Plastic totes? ...Only similar sacrilege I could think of would be to
drink champagne or wine out of a plastic "glass" (Call me a snob :o).
Of course the handle has little to do with how it cuts in theory and
planes with those will cut same if one leaves the feel behind. One
could try planing a while with no totes at all too I'm sure. I can make
new Rosewood totes in 10 minutes but, then, why buy a new plane if I
must replace the cheap handware. Why PAY new and sponsor cheap industry
if it is to flaten soles out of the box and remove burs for an hour or
so? An old plane usually gives me little or no work other than the
Iron, feels better and is definitely higher quality, IMSO. So I really
don't agree, my experience has been that modern Bench planes are not
worth the olds. My Lie-Nielsen blocks are incomparably finer and
sharper tools than my Records. Maybe my neophytic imagination.
I rarely buy old planes though. When I really "need" a specific plane I
buy a Lie-Nielsen of which I'm a big fan (as long as he keeps the
quality up) even though the price is so steep. I have those in all the
main utensils and couldn't think of better. That's probably because I
am not a professional, ...in that pleasure is first, very much before
cost and amortization. It's not strictly for completing the task but
because they shave better and feel so good I've planed boards down to my
bench, so to speak.
Try a Lie-Nielsen for a day, you might surprise yourself into keeping
it. Some other professional didn't see much sense in their cost either
until they tried them. I was actually turned onto them by a
professional furniture maker of 45 years, one that planes every day,
sometimes every hour.
Frederik
From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 5:39 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Gents,
I've got both old Stanleys and Lie-Nielsens. The L-N planes are
definitely great (and pretty) but the old Stanleys with a good
replacement blade (Hock or L-N) will work just as well. Actually I
like my woodies even more.
Lawrie
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 4:49 AM
To: frederik at gorge.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner [Vs. hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
Frederick,
I understand and since I always have believed in buying top quality
tools from the start I would probably buy only Lie-Nielson planes if I
were starting from scratch. My point was with all the planes I already
own and keep in top working order I have never found the reason to put
out the extra money for Lie-Nielsons.
If it works don't fix it. Especially at a much greater cost.
Mike Bridges
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 10:56 AM
To: dcook01 at mail.win.org; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner planes, and why not?
>Would some one please tell me why a handheld joiner plane does not have a
>ninety degree shoulder incorporated into the plane body? Keeping that plane
>perpendicular to the side of a 3/4-inch wide board is really hard to do. If
>that plane body had a built in 90 degree flange that would help to keep the
>blade perpendicular to that flange. What am I missing here? Why don't they
>do this?
First off, I don't think that the manufactures thought it was necessary,
if you get the practice and use the plane right. Secondly, it would be
very expensive to mill in.
If you are lucky, you may be able to find a Stanley #386 jointer
attachment that helps. This attaches to the sides of a plane (I find
that it attaches best to a #6 or a #7---don't like #8 very much, too
big for me!) It actually allows one to but most any angle on a board
edge.Actually, Keen-Kutter and a few others made these too, but
these are all one the "extinct" list. I have a cheap one that actually
works very well.
If you would like to see how the Brits joint, Jeff Gorman (a really
nice fellow with lots and lots of experience) has a listing on his
home page on how to use a cambered blade to joint. His home page
address is: http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.html. If you have
any questions after looking at his site, just ask.
This is assuming that you don't need/use a shooting board. A Stanley
#51/#52 combination is really fine, but as Don said, in 1916 they cost
$10, now expect to pay $1000 or more for one. There is a guy in
Houston (or maybe he's moved?) that is starting to make them. Will
still be in the hundreds. Remember that most shooting boards are
designed for fairly short pieces, or for shoot end grain, although you
can make one that will work well for longer pieces.
For a shooting board one can work around that fact that the sole and
side are not on a 90 degree angle, as some others have said, by using
shims, etc. Also, there is a small block plane sorta thing, a #95,
that LN now makes, (based on a Stanley #95) that will whistle you off
a 90 degree in no time flat. I think they sell for around $120 or so.
These work very nice, but it would still be cheaper to learn to joint
using a jointer and really good technique.
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:46 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner planes, and why not?
Hi, Gary:
I just had a look at the article on jointing with a cambered blade at
Jeff Gorman's site, and I have one concern, or perhaps warning. He is
talking of planing the boards individually, rather than in pairs which
I find easier, at least when using stock 4/4 or less in thickness. He
does mention the technique of planing boards in pairs in the article
on rub jointing, but seems to be against it for a couple of reasons
which are valid, but not enough to change my ways. <g>
Anyway, to get back to my point, if you plane boards in pairs with a
cambered blade, you are in effect bevelling each of the boards very
slightly if the centre of the blade is running down the centre of the
surface being planed. It may not seem like much, but, and I speak
from experience on this one, it adds up.
I used my #7 joiner plane when I was surfacing some panels one
summer. At the time, it was the best plane I had in terms of holding
its settings, staying sharp, and not producing tear out. The extra
mass also helped when encountering a knot in the pine the panels were
made from. Because I was surfacing and didn't want to leave ridges at
the corners of the blade, I sharpened a slight crown into the blade
edge as is common for jack and smooth planes.
I didn't have occasion to use the joiner plane again for a few
months, and by that time had forgotten about the crowned blade. I
used it to joint some boards I wanted to glue up into a panel. No
matter what I did, the boards would not assemble into a flat panel.
If I had done a few hundred boards, I would have had a decent
cylinder, though. <g>
My warning is this: if you plane both boards at once, like I do, the
plane blade _must_ be sharpened straight across in order to get a good
joint.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
Forest, Ontario.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:53 PM
To: Bruce Gowens; Mike Bridges
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Joiner planes, and why not?
Bruce,
I agree, as long as your stock is no more than 12" long. The fence on a #78
does a poor job of keeping the plane perpendicular. It is about a half inch
deep. I love my #78, but for jointing? Nope.
Gary Cavener
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:59 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner planes, and why not?
Hi, Zdenek:
I actually just grind and then buff my blades on a hard felt wheel
with Veritas' green honing compound when sharpening, so to produce the
crown was just a matter of spending a little more time on the edges of
the blade than the centre.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
"Mestenhauser, Zdenek" wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I wonder how - what technique - you used to create the crown. I would guess
> you make it by pushing the corners harder?
>
> Zdenek
>
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner planes, and why not?
Hi, Gary:
Yes, if the boards are oriented correctly, and the blade is perfectly
symmetrical from side to side, and the centre of the blade is
maintained exactly over the seam between the two boards, then the
camber should cancel out. The problem is that the orientation to
accomplish this is exactly the opposite orientation than what is
normally used when planing both boards at the same time. The only
advantage to planing both boards at the same time, other than
accomplishing two edges at once, is that if the boards are face side
to face side or back to back then any error away from a perfect 90
degree edge will cancel out. In order for the camber to cancel out,
the boards must be face to back and the overall edge must then be
planed at exactly 90 degrees to the face.
I am not doubting that the method described works, and works well. I
am just not able to consistently plane at 90 degrees to the face in
any reasonable amount of time. <g> I can get there eventually, but it
takes a lot longer and the boards can get considerably narrower by the
time I do. By doing both boards at once I don't have to be so exact
because the error will cancel out.
I understand what you are saying about matching grain and book
matching while still planing both boards in the proper direction, but
I have found that there have been suprisingly few cases where I
couldn't get an acceptable edge even when I was planing one of the
boards "uphill". Usually, if one of the boards is tearing out too
badly, I can plane from the other end and the problem board is then
being planed in the correct direction and the other board may be more
docile. This is using very light cuts, of course, just to remove the
saw marks from the wood. If all else fails, then I can still do the
boards individually.
Take care
Bob Hamilton
From: Nesswood at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 4:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Joiner Question
Greetings;
I'm starting a project with some rough sawn maple. Not having a planer, my
plan was to face and size using my joiner. Realizing this will be a pain, it's
a small project and my best option for now. My PROBLEM is that in the process
of working the first piece I have tapered the thickness of the 5/4 board to
3/4 on the leading end and 4/4 on the trailing edge. Anyone have any advice on
how to remedy. Is this typical or indicative of a set up problem with my
joiner.
Looking to learn
God Bless
Mike
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 5:36 AM
To: Nesswood at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner Question
Nesswood at aol.com wrote:
>
> Greetings;
My PROBLEM is that in the process
> of working the first piece I have tapered the thickness of the 5/4 board to
> 3/4 on the leading end and 4/4 on the trailing edge. Anyone have any advice on
> how to remedy. Is this typical or indicative of a set up problem with my
> joiner.
>
> Looking to learn
> God Bless
> Mike
Mike,
Your "Problem" is not the least bit unusual when only having 1/2 of what
is needed to do machine milling. If you want to continue with machines,
you'll need to buy a planer.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 5:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Joiner Question
Mike, my experience using a jointer for surface planing resulted in the same
problems you are facing. I have never had much success with that method. May
I suggest using a hand plane. I'm not going to get up on a soapbox, but you
might be surprised how easy this really is; especially if the pieces you are
surfacing are relatively short. If you want to give it a try, I will be glad
to share my technique with you.
FWIW, I have a very nice Delta planer, but I find that the hand plane is
still very useful when the stock is badly cupped or twisted. I use the hand
plane to knock off the problem areas before making the dust fly. It results
in fewer passes with the difficult to sharpen planer blades.
Mike
------------------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
From: RGors1020 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:43 AM
To: Nesswood at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner Question
Not owning a joiner (yet), I was just reading an article in the latest
WOODWORKERS JOURNAL about preparing rough lumber. They brought up a point
referencing the same problem and their solution was that too much pressure was
placed on the top of the board as it was passed through the joiner. You may
want to go pick up this issue and give it a read. It was very informitive.
From: Jeff Hodgson [jeff.hodgson at mail.multiverse.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:22 AM
To: Mike DeLong
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner Question
1) A planer WILL NOT take cup, bow, or twist out of a board -- the
rollers temporarily flatten it for the trip through the knives, and you
get a thinner cupped...board.
2) I have an old jointer, but after a lot of fussing I finally set the
outfeed table just a smidge (around 1/64") lower than the knives and got
rid of that nasty tapering effect. Sounds wrong, but it works.
Hand planing works fine also, just not as fast (for me anyway)
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Joiner Question
Two things, technique and choice of tools.
Using a jointer is more of an art form than one might assume. The
application of pressure at various points during the cut is critical and
tricky. FWW # 102 has a very good article on the subject. It is still
available as a back issue from www.taunton.com.
The jointer is not well suited to thickness planing. It has no way to know
if the two faces are parallel to one another. If you are going to use a
machine, a thickness planer is necessary. The portable ones are pretty
good.
John
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 11:33 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Jointer set up questions
Well, I'm most of the way through assembling my new General 8" jointer kit
:). The shipping company was less than kind to this shipment. Argh.
My first question is about honing the knives. The General instruction sheet
(it is too skinny to call a manual :( ) suggests resting an oil stone on the
outfeed table, turning on the jointer, then slowing backing the stone over
the spinning blades whilst moving back on forth along the length of the
blades to hone the final edge. This seems a bit surprising to me, but what
do I know ... I've never set up a jointer before.
Is this the best method?
I tried jointing a few pieces of scrap wood with the blades in as delivered
condition and it seems to work pretty well, but I imagine that a finer edge
would be even better.
By the by, the design and manufacture of this machine is pretty nicely done.
It could easily have been made in the 1960s from the look of the heavy
castings and precision controls. Even though I've had some hassles with
the shipping, I'm glad I chose this over the Jet or Delta machines.
TIA for your always terrific advice,
John
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 7:56 AM
To: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Jointer set up questions
John,
this method has been working for the industry for decades. For
them time means more money than for the craftman... an
accountant thing : they have immense overhead expenses so any
down time is deadly. You'll be creating a secondary bevel that
will be rounded. Round isn't a good thing but if it's very small
it will seem to work ; the wood will be more compressed than
with a properly gound bevel and you'll get more of the washboard
effect. You won't be able to hone as large a (satisfying)
secondary bevel as if you were grinding it flat, hence more
grinding of the primary bevel. In short, it will work for you if
you don't mind the trade offs.
There's another reason manufacturers like this "on the fly"
method : the cutters are automatically levelled to any
irregularities in the outfeed table. In all truth, I had a
General 8" for years (now the property of my insurance company)
and loved it all that time. But I'm sure that they'll take any
bonuses advantage when they come their way so easily.
I'm in favor of a secondary bevel because it saves me time and
allows for fine tuning. I use a piece of sandpaper, the 15
micron PSA backed from 3M, stuck to a 1/4" piece of glass. By
blocking the cutter head so the cutter will stay at the right
angle relative to the outfeed table, I can rest my glass on the
outfeed table and sharpen by dragging it backward on the knife's
edge. Play with the outfeed table level to get a more of less
large secondary bevel.
You could use a stone : with the sand paper you wont need
lubricant which I find always nice. Oh yes : wrap some paper
around your stone or don't put sandpaper where the abrasive will
touch the outfeed table.
Jean Montambeault
Montr�al, Qu�bec,Canada
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 5:29 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Jointer set up questions
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> Well, I'm most of the way through assembling my new General 8"
> My first question is about honing the knives. The General
> suggests resting an oil stone on the
> outfeed table, turning on the jointer, then slowing backing the stone over
> John
John,
More than one mfr suggests this method. It's fast and easy and
effective...but not very good. You were using your head to question when
you asked.
Obviously, jointing in this method will remove metal from a knife edge.
So the sharp edge is gone! After jointing it must then be honed. If the
same method is used to hone, it produces a double bevel which can be
undesireable in a jointer as it now will create heat through friction,
and "beat" the wood each time a knife strikes the wood.
A knife setting gauge of some sort is a much better method as it does
not cause any of the above problems. There are several different gauges
"out there" plus the homemade type. The homemade type I refer to is that
simple stick lying on the outfeed table projecting out over the
cutterhead; which when hand turning the cutterhead will be picked up any
high knife and be carried forward. When the distance of the "carried
forward" is the same for both ends of that knife, then it is level and
the same.
I hope you got a good one and enjoy it.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 2:44 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Jointer set up questions
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
<snip>
Thanks Once Again Don,
>
>Obviously, jointing in this method will remove metal from a knife edge.
>So the sharp edge is gone! After jointing it must then be honed. If the
>same method is used to hone, it produces a double bevel which can be
>undesireable in a jointer as it now will create heat through friction,
>and "beat" the wood each time a knife strikes the wood.
>
Is it best to hone the knife edges off machine, then install them? This is
what I do with my portable planer and I can't see why the jointer would
neccessarily be different. Oddly enough, there are lots of books on using
table saws, bandsaws and routers, but not a one specifically about the
jointer. I've order a coupld of FWW back issues which seem to have some
pertinant articles in them.
>A knife setting gauge of some sort is a much better method as it does
>not cause any of the above problems. There are several different gauges
>"out there" plus the homemade type. The homemade type I refer to is that
>simple stick lying on the outfeed table projecting out over the
>cutterhead; which when hand turning the cutterhead will be picked up any
>high knife and be carried forward. When the distance of the "carried
>forward" is the same for both ends of that knife, then it is level and
>the same.
Cool method. I used a piece of very straight MDF on edge between the
outfeed table and the knives to set the knives and went for getting just the
barest swish sound as the knife pased under the MDF as I turned the cutter
head by hand. Of course the machine was unplugged at this time. Scarry
blades! I like the idea of the distance traveled method even better. That
is way cool.
>
>I hope you got a good one and enjoy it.
So far so good!
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 7:25 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Jointer set up questions
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks Once Again Don,
>
> >
> >Obviously, jointing in this method will remove metal from a knife edge.
> >So the sharp edge is gone! After jointing it must then be honed. If the
> >same method is used to hone, it produces a double bevel which can be
> >undesireable in a jointer as it now will create heat through friction,
> >and "beat" the wood each time a knife strikes the wood.
> >
>
> Is it best to hone the knife edges off machine, then install them? This is
> what I do with my portable planer and I can't see why the jointer would
> neccessarily be different. Oddly enough, there are lots of books on using
> table saws, bandsaws and routers, but not a one specifically about the
> jointer. I've order a coupld of FWW back issues which seem to have some
> pertinant articles in them.
No it is not, unless you mean to grind them. You were talking about
jointing the knives so that they would all be extended the same amount
using the oilstone method. I think the jointer would be different from
your portable planer because the height of the blade in the planer
cutterhead is adjustable. There would be no practical method that you
could accurately get the height of each knife to be the same while off
the cutterhead and install them that way.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 8:44 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Jointer set up questions
<snip>
>
>No it is not, unless you mean to grind them. You were talking about
>jointing the knives so that they would all be extended the same amount
>using the oilstone method.
<snip>
Sorry, I got wrapped up in the differing uses of terminology. The General
manual called the oil stone process "honing" and I thought they intended it
as a method to put a final edge on the blade. Now I realize that the
purpose of that process is to joint the knife edges to the outfeed table.
I've been able to get the edges in nice alignment to the outfeed table just
by adjusting the knives, so no need to joint them.
Thanks again,
John
From: Raymond Friesen [friesen at blueplanet.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 3:25 PM
To: theoak
Subject: Jointers
Fellow woodworkers;
I received a new Grizzly catalog yesterday and I was looking at their jointers. I am kind of looking for a jointer and they have a couple that appeal to me and I thought maybe some of you out there had had some experience with them and could answer some questions for me.
They have two models, basically, that I would be interested in: 6"x 47" "Heavy Duty" models. Both are near the same price, one is some $50 more and looks like mostly superficial differences in the cabinet. Anybody know what the functional difference is, if any -- or just cosmetic? Also, they use 'levers' (long 'rods' with balls on the end) to adjust the tables instead of crank wheels. Is that really better, as they say, or just cheaper, or...? Do the tables and fences adjust smoothly and easily so that small changes can easily be accomodated -- can the cutting depth or fence be changed by .001", or .005", or .010", or would you spend half the day trying to adjust it?
Delta and Jet also make competitive priced 6" jointers. Grizzly as good, better, good enough, or if you can afford the Jet or Delta you should get them? I have heard that the Jet fence adjustments are very stiff and the tables don't adjust real smooth, any truth to that?
Complicating the picture: There are a couple of dealers around here where I can go and look, touch and fiddle with, the Jet and the Delta, but I don't know of a Grizzly dealer around. (Dallas, Ft. Worth Area -- anybody know of a dealer here?)
Opinions???? Experience??? Comments???
rf
From: lunden at home.com
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 4:50 PM
To: Raymond Friesen
Cc: theoak
Subject: Re: Jointers
Ray:
I have the Delta 6" x 47" jointer and have used is for about two years.
It has done everything that I expected it to do. I have sharpened and
re-installed the blades twice in that time.
I have worked with hardwoods like red oak, maple, mahogany and cherry
strictly for amateur purposes.
Any board over 8' long and all stock 5/4 and thicker are very difficult
to maneuver over the short 47" bed. If you have the space, I would give
very careful consideration to a longer bed model.
Jim Lunden
Avon, CT
> Raymond Friesen wrote:
>
> Fellow woodworkers;
>
> I received a new Grizzly catalog yesterday and I was looking at their
> jointers. I am kind of looking for a jointer and they have a couple
> that appeal to me and I thought maybe some of you out there had had
> some experience with them and could answer some questions for me.
>
> They have two models, basically, that I would be interested in: 6"x
> 47" "Heavy Duty" models. Both are near the same price, one is some
> $50 more and looks like mostly superficial differences in the
> cabinet. Anybody know what the functional difference is, if any -- or
> just cosmetic? Also, they use 'levers' (long 'rods' with balls on
> the end) to adjust the tables instead of crank wheels. Is that really
> better, as they say, or just cheaper, or...? Do the tables and fences
> adjust smoothly and easily so that small changes can easily be
> accomodated -- can the cutting depth or fence be changed by .001", or
> .005", or .010", or would you spend half the day trying to adjust it?
>
> Delta and Jet also make competitive priced 6" jointers. Grizzly as
> good, better, good enough, or if you can afford the Jet or Delta you
> should get them? I have heard that the Jet fence adjustments are very
> stiff and the tables don't adjust real smooth, any truth to that?
>
> Complicating the picture: There are a couple of dealers around here
> where I can go and look, touch and fiddle with, the Jet and the
> Delta, but I don't know of a Grizzly dealer around. (Dallas, Ft. Worth
> Area -- anybody know of a dealer here?)
>
> Opinions???? Experience??? Comments???
>
> rf
From: Thomas Bunetta [ears at ewol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 4:40 PM
To: Raymond Friesen
Cc: Woodworking at theoak
Subject: Re: Jointers
I bought a Star 8". It has the levers for infeed and a wheel for outfeed.
You'll probably here opinions about both, but I had ordered the (add'l charge) infeed wheel to replace the lever... after using it a while, I cancelled the order. It works pretty well, and IMO, that kind of very fine adjustment simply isn't needed to prepare stock.
Tom
From: Jeff Marshall [nickevan at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:12 PM
To: Raymond Friesen; theoak
Subject: Re: Jointers
Ray - with respect to Grizzly dealers, there are none in Texas. Grizzly tools are sold only through Grizzly; their locations are in Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Washington state.
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Friesen <friesen at blueplanet.net>
To: theoak <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:35 PM
Subject: Jointers
Fellow woodworkers;
I received a new Grizzly catalog yesterday and I was looking at their jointers. I am kind of looking for a jointer and they have a couple that appeal to me and I thought maybe some of you out there had had some experience with them and could answer some questions for me.
They have two models, basically, that I would be interested in: 6"x 47" "Heavy Duty" models. Both are near the same price, one is some $50 more and looks like mostly superficial differences in the cabinet. Anybody know what the functional difference is, if any -- or just cosmetic? Also, they use 'levers' (long 'rods' with balls on the end) to adjust the tables instead of crank wheels. Is that really better, as they say, or just cheaper, or...? Do the tables and fences adjust smoothly and easily so that small changes can easily be accomodated -- can the cutting depth or fence be changed by .001", or .005", or .010", or would you spend half the day trying to adjust it?
Delta and Jet also make competitive priced 6" jointers. Grizzly as good, better, good enough, or if you can afford the Jet or Delta you should get them? I have heard that the Jet fence adjustments are very stiff and the tables don't adjust real smooth, any truth to that?
Complicating the picture: There are a couple of dealers around here where I can go and look, touch and fiddle with, the Jet and the Delta, but I don't know of a Grizzly dealer around. (Dallas, Ft. Worth Area -- anybody know of a dealer here?)
Opinions???? Experience??? Comments???
rf
From: Kerry Thompson [kerryt at akl.optimation.co.nz]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Jointing on a router table
I've just picked up a big load of timber which I need to joint up into
some large panels, and having found it a slow process to do edge
jointing with a hand plane I thought I'd try using my router table to
do the job ( being far too financially impaired to buy a jointer ).
I've setup a 2x2 fence on my router table, all nice and straight with
a 1mm ( err, 3/64" ) shim on the outfeed side of the fence and line it
up with a 1/2" bit. So I grab a piece of pine to try it out - first
pass - very smooth and almost straight.
Second pass - real smooth, but a but of wee hump in the middle.
(worry begins to set in here )
third pass, fourth pass - the jointed edge instead of being straight
along its length, starts to become banana shaped, with a definite rise
in the middle. Something is wrong here.
I start by pressing the wood against the infeed side of the fence, then
push it into the cutter, as it runs through I move the pressure to the
outfeed side of the fence. I've checked that the fence is straight,
and that the router bit is aligned to the outfeed fence.
I've tried using featherboards to push the wood against the infeed
fence, the outfeed fence and also pushing it against the middle of the
fence where the bit is - but I can't get a good straight edge.
Have I missed something obvious here ? -or should I go back to using a
hand plane to do my jointing ?
Your tips would be greatly appreciated.
-Kerry
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 9:10 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jointing on a router table
I haven't used the technique you describe, but it conceptually sounds like a
standard jointer set on edge.
That said, with a regular jointer one doesn't want to put much if any
pressure on the infeed side. The pressure is applied primarily on the
outfeed side. Also, I find that when jointing I can get a bit better
results by running the concave side of the board against the blades rather
than the convex side.
There is certainly a bit of body english involved in getting good results
from a power jointer. Not as much as when hand planing, but it isn't as cut
and dry as is ripping straight stock on a table saw.
John
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:57 PM
To: Kerry Thompson; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Jointing on a router table
Kerry,
Have you used a known good straight edge to your fence? Have you tried
pressing the workpiece from the same place, in relation to the router, all
the way through? My guess is that you started with a slight imperfection,
and your problem multiplied by the number of passes. With the straight
edge, line it up on the outfeed piece, and check for alignment by using a
couple of pieces of the shim stock between the infeed fence and the straight
edge. I don't see how the problem could be anywhere else, unless it is in
your method of feed.
Gary
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 3:00 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Kerry Thompson
Subject: Re: Jointing on a router table
Place similar shim on the infeed side and align for
absolute zero clearance of the bit, then remove the
shim on the infeed fence. Now apply even pressure
while feeding the stock, you should get a straight edge.
I tryed this once and it worked for me.
geo
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 5:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Jointing on a router table
I've done something similar to what you're attempting, but using a different
technique. In my case, I have a jointer, but couldn't handle 5/4 x 12 x
10feet long over my jointer by myself.
I got a piece of mdf 10' long, ripped it to 16" or so wide. Then I put the
pieces that I wanted to join together on some sleepers on the basement
floor. The two planks that I wanted to join were separated by about 1/4"
along their length. I placed the mdf on top of all this, spaced away from
the joint-to-be by enough that my 1/2" router bit would take 1/8" or so off
each of the two planks. Then using the mdf as a guide, I made a single pass
with the router down the entire length of the joint. Got a great fit.
I clamped the whole mess by using house jacks (long pipes with a jack screw
in one end) between the first floor joists and the pieces I was working on.
The setup takes a while to get just right, but the result was fine. Just
have to make sure you've got the router tight to the mdf: since you're
cutting both sides at once, the router may want to wander more than usually
is the case. This is partly compensated for by the fact that you're cutting
both sides, so an error in one side is matched by the compensating error in
the other piece of wood.
Hope this helps,
Bob Chapman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerry Thompson [mailto:kerryt at akl.optimation.co.nz]
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 11:11 PM
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Jointing on a router table
>
>
> I've just picked up a big load of timber which I need to joint up into
> some large panels, and having found it a slow process to do edge
> jointing with a hand plane I thought I'd try using my router table to
> do the job ( being far too financially impaired to buy a jointer ).
>
> I've setup a 2x2 fence on my router table, all nice and straight with
> a 1mm ( err, 3/64" ) shim on the outfeed side of the fence and line it
> up with a 1/2" bit. So I grab a piece of pine to try it out - first
> pass - very smooth and almost straight.
>
> Second pass - real smooth, but a but of wee hump in the middle.
>
> (worry begins to set in here )
>
> third pass, fourth pass - the jointed edge instead of being straight
> along its length, starts to become banana shaped, with a definite rise
> in the middle. Something is wrong here.
>
> I start by pressing the wood against the infeed side of the
> fence, then
> push it into the cutter, as it runs through I move the pressure to the
> outfeed side of the fence. I've checked that the fence is straight,
> and that the router bit is aligned to the outfeed fence.
>
> I've tried using featherboards to push the wood against the infeed
> fence, the outfeed fence and also pushing it against the middle of the
> fence where the bit is - but I can't get a good straight edge.
>
> Have I missed something obvious here ? -or should I go back to using a
> hand plane to do my jointing ?
>
> Your tips would be greatly appreciated.
> -Kerry
>
>
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 6:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jointing on a router table
>Second pass - real smooth, but a but of wee hump in the middle.
>(worry begins to set in here )
>third pass, fourth pass - the jointed edge instead of being straight
>along its length, starts to become banana shaped, with a definite rise
>in the middle. Something is wrong here.
I've not tried this but your results are common from what I've read in
the past. There are a couple more "routs" you can take with this.
The first is a method I think all shops should be set up for. We
always called it a "zero board" and I've gone on ad nauseum about it
in the past. No rule that I can't continue and it's not an off color
joke so here we go again...
Check out these URLs first.
http://www.open.org/hughesa/w3-01-96.htm
http://members.aol.com/woodmiser1/sawbd.htm
Pretty simple set up right? The beauty of it is you don't need to
measure offset and that's where we all fall down. Another caveat of
the system is you can make up one for your circular saw for initial
busting up large panels.
The only down side is you can't always rely on having stock wide
enough to clamp on. What do you do with a 2" board? There is a
product on the market called the Joint-A-Bility. It's similar to the
zero board except it solves the clamp in the way problem. I've seen
it demonstrated and it appears to work. It comes in three sizes.
60" - $139
96" - $189
120" - $279
A bit expensive yes but a resourceful cuss might be able to cobble
together a clone.
Joint-A-Bility 800-997-1918
Keith Bohn
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:27 AM
To: Kerry Thompson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Jointing on a router table
Kerry,
Your problem at first glance appears to me to be with your "fence". A 2"
x 2" fence can flex. ANY flex can be a potential problem. Add to that
that it required a shim, (which can now possibly flex even more between
the shim and some other point) tells me that you need to be more
accurate when creating a "jig" that must be 100% reliable to be
straight. Since you indicated you can joint an edge with handtools, you
should use that same ability to make an accurate fence. It will pay off
in a large way.
The trueness of your "jointing" depends upon the accuracy of your fence.
There could be other circumstances affecting your result, but these are
stretching for possibilitys. You might be getting "push off" from a bit
whose shank is not down into the collet enough. The shank could be thin
enough to allow flexing under the pressure you are using. The router
mountings might not be solid, or the table top too thin permitting under
cutting pressure, that the router with top moves slightly. There might
be play in the bearings. The wood itself could be the cause of problems
to come. If the wood is not flat, although the joint cut with the bit
will be 90� to the face, when straightening out a board edge to align
with another, this will create some gapping.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:35 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Keeping cedar poles from fading
I am going to cut some cedar trees to make pole rustic furniture and wonder how to keep them from turning black or grey. One idea was to wrap them in plastic to keep the natural color until they are used. Any other experiences out there?
Thanks
John
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:47 AM
To: John & Marie McInnis; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Keeping cedar poles from fading
How about leaving the bark on and keeping them out of direct sunlight.
Wouldn't the plastic wrap maybe cause more problems than it solves?
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: John & Marie McInnis [mailto:cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:35 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Keeping cedar poles from fading
I am going to cut some cedar trees to make pole rustic furniture and
wonder how to keep them from turning black or grey. One idea was to wrap
them in plastic to keep the natural color until they are used. Any other
experiences out there?
Thanks
John
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:11 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Keith... I am beginning to understand!
The rule of thumb is to air dry one year for every inch. If the piece
I got from you is any indication of the normal thickness I'd think you
where set and stickering won't be necessary.
On the other hand I would sticker every fifth or sixth layer to help
keep a large pile stable. Even strips of 1/4" plywood will work for
this.
Keith Bohn
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 5:43 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Subject: Re: Kids and wood working
Stephen,
There is one person ahead of you that may take it. If not your next. I
am not sure about the weight or size it will be after packaging. I have
not looked at it for 2 years. I went to
http://www.ups.com/using/services/rave/qcost.cgi and did a quick
guess-ti-ment and came up with ~$30. COD would add ~$5.00 to it or you
could send a check. I assumed 50# shipping weight. It would be around
that +/-. I think I have enough scrape wood to create it. Let me know
if you are still interested.
Al
Big al on the irc
Zip 49201
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> At 05:05 PM 9/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >PS: I still have the old rigid arm saw if any one wants it. Free to a
> >good home but shipping cost will probably be more that it is worth. It
> >is belt driven and you can use a washing machine motor to run it.
> >
>
> Has this saw found a home yet? How much does it weigh and how far away is
> it from Portland, OR (97007)?
>
> I am interested in paying shipping on it. I have a 1.5 hp motor that
> should be able to power it with no problems.
>
> If you can ship from a commercial address, and I receive it at a commercial
> address, shipping gets cut almost in half with UPS.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Steve
> **********************************************************************
> "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981
> **********************************************************************
> * Stephen Bigelow * steveb at sentrol.com *
> * Space Engineering * PGP Public Key available on Req*
> * Sentrol, Inc. * 503.691.7450 fax:503.691.7575 *
> **********************************************************************
From: Allen Knack (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Kids and wood working
I have two sons ages 15&16. The youngest likes to work with wood and on
other items. The eldest couldn't care less. I started both of them out
with pounding nails. They would go to my scrap box pull out some wood
and nail them together. They used about 5 pounds of nails for each
board <G> but who cares. Nails are cheap. soon they were building
"forts" for there GI Joe's. The eldest son lost interest but the other
kept on. I got the youngest started building something that look real.
It was a simple stool for a cub scout project. Just some scrap plywood
and 2x4. I cut out the wood and he nailed it together. I had an old
ridged arm scroll saw collecting dust in the corner. Fixed it up,
bought a scroll saw pattern book at Sears and got him started. He made
some Christmas tree ornaments. Real simple ones at first. No inside
cuts. Once he got the hang of it on 1/4" luan plywood, I bought some
good 1/8" Baltic Birch. The only rules I had was I was to be in the
shop with him and the birch ws not to be wasted but used for "real"
projects. He made quite a few tree ornament out of the time it was
obvious he out grew that saw. So we went shopping for a new one. He
wanted that $800+ Delta one of course. But me with my vast knowledge
of scroll saws and a thin wallet said No Way. (Remember that saw
collected dust, not saw dust) :-)
We settled on the variable speed Delta for about $300. He soon out grew
the birch plywood so I taught him (and me) how to resaw some maple and
cherry I had. He is now getting pretty darn good at this stuff. Better
than me, and he knows it.
That's how I got one of my boys interested in wood working. After
taking wood working in school I now allow him to use any tool in the
shop. And he does :-)
Al
Big al on the irc
PS: I still have the old rigid arm saw if any one wants it. Free to a
good home but shipping cost will probably be more that it is worth. It
is belt driven and you can use a washing machine motor to run it.
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:47 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Kiln Operators
Thanks - Ken
From: Daniel A. Segel (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Knife setting jigs
The Delta version must be metal, while the Trend Lines version is some kind
of plastic. You can find the non-Delta metal version for about $35 from
some other sources.
Which one to get? It probably doesn't really matter. I bought the metal
version because of some reason that seemed important at the time but I
can't remember right now. It works fine.
Daniel
From: Richard Emmel (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [remmel at flash.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Knife setting jigs
On page 18 of Tool Crib is the Delta Magna-Set Knife stetting jig for
$59.95.
On page 32 of Trend Lines is a Magna-Set jig that looks identical to the
Delta for $26.96. Which would you buy and why?
From: Steve Garbini (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: RE: Knife setting jigs
Rich,
Without looking at the advertisements, the more expensive one is made
with a metal body holding the magnets. The less expensive unit's
body is made of some sort of composition/ plastic material.
I bought the metal kind several years ago and it works fine.
However, as a hobbyist, I'd assume the "plastic" kind would hold up
well. (Read as I should have saved the bucks myself.)
Perhaps someone can comment on their direct experience?
My two cents,
Steve Garbini
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:47 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Kreg $
Anyone know who has the best price going on the Kreg? Numerous $129.95
offers. Anyone seeing it for $119.95? Hey, ten bucks is ten bucks! Unless
your a hunter, and then you figure it's either the Muthaload, or a gay
pasture. (With apologies to those so inclined.)
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:07 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Kreg $
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny E. Cook <dcook01 at mail.win.org>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:22 PM
Subject: Kreg $
>Anyone know who has the best price going on the Kreg? Numerous $129.95
>offers. Anyone seeing it for $119.95? Hey, ten bucks is ten bucks!
Unless
>your a hunter, and then you figure it's either the Muthaload, or a gay
>pasture. (With apologies to those so inclined.)
>
>
At the Woodshow Online they are offering the regular jig at $129.95 and are
including the portable jig as a sweetener. So, not a better price, but a
little more for your money.
http://www.woodmagazine.com/booths/kregtool/kregjig.html
John H.
From: Jeffrey Krauss [jeffreyk at alumni.Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 5:19 PM
To: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Label Holders?
First of all, thanks for all the recommendations concerning epoxy - I picked
up some slow setting epoxy this weekend and will be experimenting with it
later this week... I also picked up some of the LocTite to experiment with.
So I just finished building a box of drawers for random hardware storage in
my shop and went looking for some brass label holders to attach to the
drawers so that I can keep track of what is in them. You know, the ones
that are designed to hold a small piece of cardstock or paper. I can't find
anyone who cares these - either in my catalogs or in any of the hardware
stores or office supply stores in my area! Does anyone have any
recommendations for companies that carry these? I am looking for ones that
are 1/2" high specifically...
Thanks for any suggestions!
-JeffreyK
<mailto:jeffreyk at alumni.princeton.edu>
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Jeffrey Krauss
Cc: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Re: Label Holders?
Many reproduction hardware mail order outfits carry them. One 1/2 inch
size which I buy is 1/2" x 2" in Brass.
You can try:
WSI Distributors @800/447-9974
Van Dyke's Restorers @800/843-3320 (not real sure they have 'em)
Paxton Hardware Ltd. @800-241-9741 which is whom I bought from lastly.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 7:40 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: RE: Label Holders?
Rockler (1-800-279-4441) and Woodcraft (1-800-225-1153) carry them.
Chuck
From: Jeffrey Krauss [jeffreyk at alumni.Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 10:41 PM
To: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: RE: Label Holders?
Thanks! I am not really sure how I missed them the first time I went
through Rockler's catalog, but they have exactly what I am looking
for.
(Don - thanks for your recommendations as well - I plan to call the
companies you recommended to get catalogs - the more sources the
better!)
-JeffreyK
From: Byron Clinkingbeard [Byronclink at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 6:44 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: lacquer blushing
List-
I need help. After shooting a gallon of lacquer today with no retarder, I
suddenly started having problems with blushing in a couple of places. I
haven't shot lacquer in years, and my memory is a little foggy, maybe I
need some brain retarder!
Do I need to do anything besides scuff those problem spots with 320 paper
and recoat tomorrow with a little retarder in the pot/ After, of course,
the rain moves out of town.
Any help would be appreciated.
Byron Clinkingbeard
P.S. I couldn't get my juno account to connect tonight to post this to the
list. It's been really squirrely lately. Any of you other Juno users
having problems connecting?
From: jhebert [jhebert at sol.racsa.co.cr]
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 4:44 AM
To: Byronclink at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: lacquer blushing
Byron you are correct you can re scuff those spots w/ sand paper or those
plastic scrubbers here in Coasta Rica they are known as NEGRITAS. If you
don't have any retarder just use a little richer thinner(slower drying) and
if you can put the peices in the sun for a few minutes, and you might spray
the coats a little thinner.
Jean Hebert
In downtown town Tambor Costa Rica
had a little rain on the Echinacea last
night
25 cetimiters or 10 inches
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 5:17 AM
To: Byronclink at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: lacquer blushing
Reshoot in lower humidity or with retarder and all is well. No need to
scuff those area due to the blush. Sanding would only be required if you
need to for other reasons.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Devins [mdev at planet.eon.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 1998 5:39 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Laminate Prep
Greetins All:
My daughter wants me to cover an old door with laminate. This door has old
paint.
Question;
Is sanding to be sure that all loose particles are removed adequate? Must
the door be sanded down to bare wood?
Suggestions please.
Thank you in advance.
Allan Devins :-)}}
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Great Northern Country!!
----------------------
Devins Fax (403) 481 2141 mdev at planet.eon.net
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 1998 7:52 PM
To: Devins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminate Prep
The best chance for good adhesion would be to remove all the paint.
Don't forget to leave some tooth for the adhesive.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Devins
Subject: Re: Laminate Prep
Howdy Allan
not only is adhesion an issue here, as previously mentioned, but, so is the
real possibility of any paint, digs or dings (in other words any unevenness
in the door) telegraphing through the laminate.vaneer if you don't take the
door down to smooth wood.
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 11:12 AM
To: Devins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminate Prep
Devins;
Yes, down to bare wood. If it is a solid wood door ( 1 1/2" thick) you
should have no problem. If it is a solid core door, you may have a
problem with the laminate pulling the outer ply off the door. If it is a
hollow core door, the laminate on one side may stress and warp the door
as the contact cement dries. In any of the above cases I would as a
preventative, apply the laminate to both sides of the door.
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:20 PM
To: Devins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminate Prep
Allan;
Harvey Freeman wrote;
Don't risk the possibility of the paint delaminating from the wood.
Take it down to bare wood with paint remover and then lightly sand to
get really bare wood to glue to.
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 6:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Laminated Tops for Router Table
Yo-
Since we are tossing ideas about router tables, I have a couple of
questions. It has been suggested that when laminating the top, it is
always neccesary to laminate the bottom side also. But what about
countertops? They only have laminate on one side.
I ask this because I built my first router table top with a piece of
counter top(very cheap when purchased as leftovers from the local
millworks) and it seemed very stable. I now plan to build a new one with
a cabinat base, drawers, dust collection, etc.
Since I still have access to this inexpensive materials, can I expect
the top to last in a shop enviroment?
Thanks,
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
Only 10 days to the woodworkers show in Dallas.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 7:27 AM
To: Dave Tinley; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Laminated Tops for Router Table
Dave,
I am not an expert on this, so take this with a grain of salt. I bought my
router table top from Rockler. It is MDF, at least 1 1/2" thick, and has
laminate on both surfaces. I think they went to the extra expense because
they saw a need. In comparing a router top to a counter top, I think you
need to look at the intended use, and maybe consider whether you have ever
seen a laminate counter top that was not perfectly smooth and plumb. (I
have) For the extra buck or two, I'd laminate both sides.
Gary
From: Chuck Steger [IMCEAEX-_O=INFOA_OU=MAILGATE1_CN=RECIPIENTS_CN=CSTEGER at mailgate1.infoa.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 9:05 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Laminated Tops for Router Table
This brings up an interesting comment made to me by the Incra vendor
when I bought my Incra jig. I realize he was trying to sell a router
table so take this in context.
He was telling me that their router tables are the flattest on the
market. He said this was because they were made by laminating both sides
using a "50" ton (don't remember the exact tonnage) machine press. He
said that since the press was milled to exact flat specs, and the
process of pressing the laminates together with such pressure forced the
substrate to stay flat, their tables were not only the flattest but
would stay the flattest. Bunch of hooey??
The part about laminating both sides is correct from what I've read.
Don't know about the "press" part.
Their tables sell for $300 and have an offset opening for use with
their jigs. I didn't buy the table but always wondered about what he
said.
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
NOTE: Reply to: chuck.steger at erols.com
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:09 PM
To: Dave Tinley
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminated Tops for Router Table
Dave;
The reason that it is recommended to laminate (backing sheet) the under
part is for stress balance. This is especially true for plywood and
solid wood tops (veneering will have the same effect). I am not sure
about MDF.
It is not so much the laminate or the veneer that causes the problem, it
is the adhesive that is the culprit.
Kitchen counters are something else. Usually there is a built-up leading
edge and a back-splash to counteract the stress. A post-formed (heated
and applied under pressure to give an integral curved front lip and
back-splash) counter top will also counteract the stress.
However, where you have a flat surface and you want to insure precision
such as in a router table top, why take a chance.
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
From: John Coffman [hdjohn at mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:09 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminated Tops for Router Table
I run a paper testing lab for a living and as you all know, paper is made
out of wood. So, a sheet of paper behaves like a wooden board when it
comes to reactions with moisture. Paper even has a grain direction just
like a tree. Anyway....Moisture does indeed come from the glue during the
lamination process and the thinner the substrate, the more reaction you'll
get. Sometimes you simply have to laminate both sides of something just to
counteract the imbalances created when the adhesive swells the substrate
surface. Single side laminated tables can be kept flat with the lots of
heavy underside bracing. But, you need to seal all SIX sides of your table
top, esp. if you are using the scrap kitchen formica covered particle board
stuff and recessing your base plate into the top. I recently built a very
crude prototype using this material, taking many pains to recess the
baseplate exactly the correct depth into the table top. It was perfect.
First project with my first router. I was so proud. Heavy oak rails
under the top keep it all flat as can be. I should have know it was too
good to be true. The real culprit in this router table thing, IMHO, is
humidity changes that cause the top to expand and contract in thickness.
Sometimes the base is a hair too low, sometimes too high. And I should
have expected this, but it was a prototype and I didn't want to take the
time to laminate or even paint the underside and edges. But then it turned
out so nice I wish I would have. Oh well, just have to build another one.
John's $.02 worth.
Thanks to all you good people, I've learned alot just lerking here.
Visit my web site for Old Time ABC tunes, dulcimer refrigerator magnets
and dulcimer Christmas tree ornaments I have for sale.
http://www.mindspring.com/~bcoffman/
John Coffman
Keyser, WV
From: Rick Harkins [rharkins at qni.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 4:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminated Tops for Router Table
I built a table-top router table a few years back, and intended to use a
countertop sink cut-out for the router table. A local hardware store had a
big pile of them for $2 each. I dug through the pile before I found one
that was close to being flat. By the time I was ready to put it on the
table, it had warped so badly that I had to toss it. I'd steer clear of
using countertop.
I bought a large top from Eagle America (1.5 inches thick, laminated on both
sides), and built a roll-around table with lots of storage and and dust
collection. A BIG improvement over a small table!
Rick
HeartWood
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 5:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Laminated Tops for Router Table
Dave Tinley wrote:
>Since we are tossing ideas about router tables, I have a couple of
>questions. It has been suggested that when laminating the top, it is
>always neccesary to laminate the bottom side also. But what about
>countertops? They only have laminate on one side.
As your resident particleboard (MDF is a particleboard) chauvinist I
feel compelled to weigh in on this one. The main reason counters
aren't laminated two sides is economics. The reason we don't see
failures by the boat load is the top is usually secured to the
cabinets and the cabinets take on the job of the laminate backer.
Gary Cavener wrote:
>For the extra buck or two, I'd laminate both sides.
Read this again. If you don't believe it then you need to read it
again. Keep reading until you believe it. If you still have trouble
parting with this hard earned few bucks you need a crow bar for your
wallet.
Chuck Steger wrote:
> He (Incra rep) was telling me that their router tables are the flattest on the
>market. He said this was because they were made by laminating both sides
>using a "50" ton (don't remember the exact tonnage) machine press. He
>said that since the press was milled to exact flat specs, and the
>process of pressing the laminates together with such pressure forced the
>substrate to stay flat, their tables were not only the flattest but
>would stay the flattest. Bunch of hooey??
I like this. The rep is right but lets not discount the ho-made tops.
You can get results right out there in your own gee-rage using contact
cement, laminate and some flat particleboard. A little engineering on
our part comes into play also. Most router tables are set up on some
sort of cabinet or stand. We can use these bases to help keep the
tops flat.
Graham McCulloch wrote:
>The reason that it is recommended to laminate (backing sheet) the under
>part is for stress balance.
>It is not so much the laminate or the veneer that causes the problem, it
>is the adhesive that is the culprit.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Here's another little tidbit I
find interesting too. A raw MDF panel measuring 3/4" X 8" X 30" will
deflect 1/4" under the weigh of 78 lbs. Cover this same panel with
some vertical grade (.028) laminate and it is now rated for 174 lbs.
Using standard (counter top) grade (.050) and we bump it up to 234
lbs. I only mention this because, "A" it's incredible to see the
difference a few thin sheets of laminate make and "B" there are some
good things coming about when you laminate.
Oh by the way, the reason the panel becomes stronger has to do with
some engineering laws that I'm unprepared to explain but it's similar
to the same engineering laws that let an I beam do what it does, you
know, chords and webs and all that good stuff. In Keith's world you
don't have to know why, you just have to know it does.
John Coffman wrote:
>Oh well, just have to build another one.
But that's the fun of it. You build one. You refine it. You build
another. You refine it. You build another...., O.K. you know where
I'm going with this by now. Time to "Save The Bandwidth".
Keith Bohn
P.S. I'm currently eye balling the router table featured in this
months Wood magazine. The base is similar to the Unisaw and looks
wayyyy cool. I actually like the DeWalt yellow paint job but haven't
bought in 100% on it. If I build it and paint it grey it would match
the Unisaw I have allocated for a year 2008 purchase when funds are
available.
P.P.S. Yesterday I saw what had to be the oldest Unisaw I've ever
seen. As any true Unisaw fan knows the plinth wraps continuously
around the base. The saw I saw had a "broken" plinth, that is the
plinth was only at the corners. I'm guessing this saw was build at
the end of the 30's? I had to leave when I felt the tears welling up.
From: Mike Hatlak [mikehatlak at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 2:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: LARRY continued
Welcome to Part II of our saga.... Just when you thought it was safe to
back into the wood shop....
When last we left our dim hero Larry, he had just escaped from the lair
of the evil Dr. Joe Johns. Knowing all too well how close he had come to
doom, he quickly accelerates down the street to Fast Mikey's Custom
Furniture Emporium. Along the way Larry spots another small unobtrusive
store front. He begins to read the sign out loud: "Aba....
Aba.... Abacus, Abacus Furniture Repair." Hey, Larry thinks to
himself, maybe I can get me a deal on some shelves in here! So he
proceeds inside where he is confronted by the owner of the shop who
appears like a no nonsense kind of guy. Larry proceeds to explain to the
man how he needs a set of shelves, custom built and installed, but
clever fellow that he is, he doesn't want any of that crappy hardwood
stuff. "Only the very best material!" Larry exclaims. "I want MELAMINE,
and nothing else. Oh, and a good deal, free installation, a lifetime
warranty, and a free calendar." Larry finds himself quickly escorted to
the door without so much as a word, the only evidence of his visit being
a rather odd series of dovetail shaped bruises on his behind.
Bemused, bewildered, battered, and confused Larry wanders the streets
of the great city. As he makes his way down the street he notices a
bright glow which grows greater in intensity as he trudges along. Soon
he rounds a corner and takes in the amazing spectacle before him.
Hundreds of twinkling light bulbs, miles of neon lighting, a sign 3
stories tall emblazing the words "Fast Mikey's Custom Furniture
Emporium" upon the night sky. Larry bathes in the warmth of the light
and feels as though he has finally come home. "Well now, finally a place
big enough to have HONEST people working for them!" Larry announces.
Larry is certain he can get a deal in this place cause the sign in the
window proclaims "Come on in, we'll give you a deal!". Larry steps up
the grand, brightly lit entrance and the doors, sensing his presence
whoosh open. The rush of cool air conditioned air bombards him and draws
him in deeper. As he strolls confidently down the main isle, he senses
he is being watched. Along the walls, perched on the backs of chairs
like vultures are the sales staff at Mikey's, watching hungrily. "Howdy
there, I'm Mikey, and this is my place. Welcome partner." states a
rather handsome gentleman now standing just behind Larry. "How can we be
of service to you today, sir?" Larry replies "Hi, I need some shelves
for my wife, top quality, finest material, custom made, hand crafted,
heavily warranted, and ridiculously cheap. They must be delivered free,
expertly installed free, and I want a free calendar, too. Can you help
me?". "Why certainly we can help you, sir. And we'll even throw in a
free Beta VCR or 8 track with the deal, your choice." responds Fast
Mikey. Larry is enthralled at the prospect, but holds his ear to ear
grin in check, knowing he must show no outward signs of weakness, he is
a true negotiator. "Follow me to the RC department of the store, you
know, Ridiculously Cheap" says Fast Mikey. Larry complies and upon
arriving is enthralled by all the furniture before him. It all looks so
good displayed on top the deep shag carpeting and the revolving disco
ball lights just make everything look so top quality. Fast Mikey
proceeds to whisk Larry from item to item while explaining the benefits
of Fast Mikey's 50/50 payment plan. You put 50 percent down, make no
payments for 50 hours, then its 50 dollars a week for 50 years. Larry is
not as good at financial situations as he is at woodworking so he
ponders this a bit, but it sure sounds good, Larry thinks to himself.
"Now these shelves here are the finest quality we offer in such a unit.
I think its safe to say you will not find equivalent quality anywhere
else in the world." says Fast Mikey. Larry is suitably impressed by this
statement knowing full well that Fast Mikey couldn't say it if it wasn't
true. "You have heard of the Quakers, the Shakers, and the Amananites,
haven't you, sir?" asks Mikey. Larry disdainfully replies "Well who in
this business hasn't?" Fast Mikey then adds "Of course the greatest
craftsmen of them all are the Masonites, the makers of this fine piece,
don't you agree." Larry cannot contain his awe, "The Masonites built
this? Really?"
Mikey continues, "The design is unparalleled, a direct copy of a Bohn &
Bohn original. They are just like Greene & Greene only poorer. The
construction is exquisite. Every hole is bored instead of drilled. No
glue, epoxy, or liquid fastener of any kind is used. They use hand
picked, hot dipped, galvanized, ring shank nails for every joint. And
these are butt joints my friend! We don't rely on measly weak tenons.
The case is made of plantation grown, hand harvested hardboard. The back
may look like peg board but it is really Egyptian peek-aboo board. Each
hole is made by a sacred Nile worm, captured and placed in the bark of
the rare Peek-aboo tree by an Egyptian high priest. The finish is the
finest, hand selected Melamine which is made from Platinum, Alabaster,
Mother of Pearl, and a touch of Formicanite for strength." Larry, his
head swimming, leans against the shelving unit to steady himself. "Why
does it sway like that?" he asks. Fast Mikey is quick to respond, "The
Sears tower sways in the wind, or it would break. This furniture is
engineered, not manufactured, sir!" Larry retorts, "I knew that!"
Fast Mikey continues, "Your furniture will be delivered and setup by
hand picked experts from Garbini Enterprises whose employees are fully
licensed, insured, bonded, and currently on parole. Do we have a deal?"
Larry can scarcely believe the depth of his luck. "I'm ready to sign!"
he states. After signing, Larry is informed his furniture will be
delivered the following morning. "But I thought it was to be custom
built?" he asks. "Of course it is, our people will work all night on
it!" replies Fast Mikey. Larry is amazed at the answer. These people are
really professionals, he thinks. That Joe Johns guy wanted weeks to
build this stuff. Larry never really got an answer out of the Abacus
fellow. Happy beyond belief, Larry heads home to tell his wife of their
good fortune.
And so, Larry and Lorna Lemonjello live for many days, happy with
their new furniture until the following Friday when the roof of their
home caves in. The house had recently undergone a complete renovation
done by a guy named Bob Villa, who of course, as everyone knows, works
for Fast Mikey Building Contractors.
the end
if you guys are looking for a moral to the story, I'm too tired....
mike hatlak
From: Steve Garbini [spgarbini at erols.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:01 PM
To: 'Mike Hatlak'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: LARRY continued
Dear Sirs and Mamses,
We hear at Garbini Enterprises wishes to clarify some tings.
We've only been arraign'ded five times; wit no convictions! A record
we is most pleased an proud of. In addition, our parolees is of the
highest calibers - fully trained in da prison workshops and somewhat
insured. The somewhat part being if youse is askin' and the not part
if anyting is missin' from da house.
We would also like to make sure dat everyone knows dat we was working
for the Mr. Villa guy when the alleged house falling in incident
thing occurred. Please contact our attorneys, DoWe Cheatum and How,
for further information or if youse decided you wants to try and sews
us.
Dis, of course would not be a real bright idea on your part - Bada
Bing, Bada Boom!
Garbini Enterprises
You make 'em, we slam 'em in
Central Joisey
From: Pianoman [dldahl at famvid.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:01 PM
To: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: Latest project
Folks:
Just a blurp about the latest project I finished. Since I took last week off as vacation, I felt I'd not REALLY be a woodworker if I didn't build something. But, it couldn't be too much, as I'd no idea when I'd really get it completed otherwise. So, on the mandatory "spend the gift certificate" shopping spree my son and I looked at some nice chess pieces. I know we have some, somewhere, but no board. So, I thinks to myself, maybe a chessboard would be nice
To the lab, er, shop. Some old stair boards from my brother-in-law would supply ample maple for the white squares, maybe a piece of that old walnut for the dark. Cut into strips, glue, plane, recut, reglue, sand. Viola! A board. Nice understated contrast, too, much better than I think the mahogany would have offered. Glue up an edge, cut some tapered maple legs, the "apron" boards, mortice/tenon, glue. A chess table is born! What's that? The maple apron on the table is BIRDSEYE? Where'd those boards come from? Scrap! Wow! Cool!
So, now, where did those chessmen go?
David Dahl
Board in Appleton WI
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:18 PM
To: Pianoman
Cc: Woodworking (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Latest project
So how did you orient the grain so that
expansion/contraction won't bust that chess board apart?
I've asked this question before, on this newsgroup, and had
no answer.
Pianoman wrote:
>
> Folks:
> Just a blurp about the latest project I finished. Since I took last week off as vacation, I felt I'd not REALLY be a woodworker if I didn't build something. But, it couldn't be too much, as I'd no idea when I'd really get it completed otherwise. So, on the mandatory "spend the gift certificate" shopping spree my son and I looked at some nice chess pieces. I know we have some, somewhere, but no board. So, I thinks to myself, maybe a chessboard would be nice
>
> To the lab, er, shop. Some old stair boards from my brother-in-law would supply ample maple for the white squares, maybe a piece of that old walnut for the dark. Cut into strips, glue, plane, recut, reglue, sand. Viola! A board. Nice understated contrast, too, much better than I think the mahogany would have offered. Glue up an edge, cut some tapered maple legs, the "apron" boards, mortice/tenon, glue. A chess table is born! What's that? The maple apron on the table is BIRDSEYE? Where'd those boards come from? Scrap! Wow! Cool!
>
> So, now, where did those chessmen go?
>
> David Dahl
> Board in Appleton WI
From: Frederik Fouillade (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
David Cabrera wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a web site for "General Machinery".
David,
Aside from the General site which Daniel just unveiled, there is Wilke's
Machinery which does Bridgewood and General. I understand they are the
main US importer for General.
http://www.WilkeMach.com/Wilke/index.html
Incidentally, Wilke's site does not show General. Thought it did, just
checked. It's in their catalog, so you should order one. Then this
General page does list them and other as points of sale. Wilke's would
be the first ones I'd call.
http://www.general.ca/fr/distributeurs.htm#�TATS-UNIS
Frederik
From: Chad Marsh (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [chad at wa.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
The Woodsmith Store sells General machinery, check here:
http://www.augusthome.com/gen_indx.htm
You might look at the Powermatic 3520 or the Oneway also as comparables.
Chad Marsh
PM-66 on IRC
Tacoma, WA
David Cabrera wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a web site for "General Machinery". I am currently
> browsing for the purchase of a Lathe. I've heard that the General Lathe is
> one worth investigating, but I can't find any infomation. I can't find
> information on the company or a retailer for their products on the web. So
> far, I've called one company listing from a magazine, and will recieve a
> catalog from Canada in week, Ashman Technical. If anyone has any comments
> that might help me in my new purchase, please feel free.
> Thanks,
> David Cabrera
> Baton Rouge, La.
From: John T. Horner (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
You can find a little bit of information at:
http://www.augusthome.com/gen_160.htm
General doesn't seem to have their own web site, and they don't spend much
on advertising.
General does, however, make some darn nice machinery. I recently purchased
a General bandsaw and jointer through Ashman Technical and I'm glad of it.
Just today I was in the local machine tool store and I took another look at
the Delta bandsaw and jointer models which compete with the ones I bought.
The General tools are much more ruggedly constructed.
I've not personally used a General lathe, but I've heard that they have long
been considered a standard much like the Unisaw has long been a standard
amongst table saws.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: David Cabrera <dcabrera at iamerica.net>
To: "theoak" <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 9:40 AM
Subject: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
Does anyone know of a web site for "General Machinery". I am currently
browsing for the purchase of a Lathe. I've heard that the General Lathe is
one worth investigating, but I can't find any infomation. I can't find
information on the company or a retailer for their products on the web. So
far, I've called one company listing from a magazine, and will recieve a
catalog from Canada in week, Ashman Technical. If anyone has any comments
that might help me in my new purchase, please feel free.
Thanks,
David Cabrera
Baton Rouge, La.
From: Michael Osadchuk (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
Hi David
Fred and Morris are the prinicpals at Ashman Technical in Hamilton,
Ontario. They are straight shooters. They have said that a lot of their
business is to the U.S. so they should know how to ship. Do haggle on
price,consider paying directly in Cdn. money to get the currrency
exchange (66cent dollars!), then consider offerring cash to get a
further 2% discount.
I don't know lathes but is there not another top of the line lathe
outfit called something like "Oneway" in western Ontario.
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: David Cabrera (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [dcabrera at iamerica.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Lathe search "General Machinery Inc." Web Site
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:51 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
Just a shot in the dark here, are the switches you are using the quiet
mercury switches? If so, is it possible that the position you are
installing them in is affecting their performance? Other than that, I
haven't any ideas. From what you've said, it SOUNDS like the switch you
are using should be quite adequate. OK, maybe one more idea. Is it
possible that you are bogging down the motor when you are using it, thus
creating excessive current draw? OK, now I really am out of ideas.
Zane Harris
Chuck Steger wrote:
> ...my lathe...about every two months...switch goes bad...motor is
> 3/4 hp...draws 11 amps...regular switch (like a
> light switch)...rated for 20 amps
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:17 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Lathe Switch
I've been using my lathe quite a bit and about every two months, my
switch goes bad and I have to get a new one. The switch is just your
basic on-off switch (speed is controlled by step pulley). The motor is
3/4 hp that draws 11 amps. I've been buying a regular switch (like a
light switch) that is rated for 20 amps. It doesn't kick a breaker and
it's not the motor or wire because when it goes bad in the middle of a
session, I just hard wire the switch (i.e. bypass it) and then have to
use the plug operate the lathe. It works fine like that so that rules
out the wire and motor. I replace the switch and it lasts for another 2
or 3 months or so and then I have to replace it again. What is going
on? Why would the switch keep going bad?
Chuck
WoodChuck WoodWorks
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:17 PM
To: kayak at one.net
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
Chuck,
I didn't see the original email, just this one. I think you'll find that
your 11 amp motor will virtually tripple in amps at the startup...only.
Plus, is your switch rated as a XX hp. motor switch? My understanding is
that there are differences, though I know not what they are. I currently
have a "huge" physically sized 1/2 HP motor run by a "normal" switch,
and have no problem for 12 years and being turned on/off more than once
daily. The same thing for my remote router table switch which is 8 years
old.
From: Richard Funnell [rfunnell at pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:23 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
Chuck,
Amperage isn't the only thing that kills switches. Motors are inductive
loads that cause arcs when the power is shut off. You'll probably find
that the switch is rated to switch lights or resistive loads up to 20 amps,
but much less for motors. You should look for a switch rated to control a
motor that size.
Richard
From: John C. Broman, Jr. [stingray at wizard.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:36 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
At 07:16 PM 11/19/98 -0500, Chuck Steger wrote:
> I've been using my lathe quite a bit and about every two months, my
>switch goes bad and I have to get a new one. The switch is just your
>basic on-off switch (speed is controlled by step pulley). The motor is
>3/4 hp that draws 11 amps. I've been buying a regular switch (like a
>light switch) that is rated for 20 amps.
<snip>
This exact problem happen when I was using my Dad's lathe alot on a recent
vacation. It's an old lathe, recently remounted on a benchtop with a
conventional switch conveniently next to the drive-end of the latch. But
the switch soon failed. I replaced it, but the new switch failed soon after.
Turns out, it was getting glogged with fine sawdust. So we remounted the
switch underneath the lathe, and no problems since. Or at least it
survived until my vacation was over!
John Broman, Jr.
Beginner wood turner
From: Tony Moore [bt at stbedes.melb.catholic.edu.au]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:59 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
Dear Chuck,
May I suggest a possible cause of premature switch failure.
Any type of switch has a certain work rating or duty cycle known to the
manufacturer and probably available in some kind of technical bulletin
Each time the switch is opened and each time it is closed there will be an
electric arc formed between the brass contacts. This arc generates enormous
temperatures at the points of contact. The heat is absorbed by the two
pieces of metal.
The domestic light switch in your house can be switched on and off say, for
example, once every few hours. In the interim period the contacts cool down.
It will last a lifetime if this is all the use it gets. If you were to
switch it on and off (while under load) say every 5 minutes, it would
probably fail after only one hour.
Some years ago when I was living in a very remote region we had a large
standby generator in case the district power went off, which was usually
about once a week. The only way to find out if the power had returned was to
change to the main supply on and off. The changeover breaker was rated at
about 200amp. One day this failed. This was a $800 switch!!! I took it to
the electical wholesalers and he opened it and showed the scorch marks and
heat distortion in the contact terminal. The he asked me the $64 question,
"How often do you turn this switch on and off". It was more like an $800
question.
Even the electricity suppliers have trouble sometimes. In that same region,
their switch only responded to a $12,000 question!
May I suggest that if your lathe has no form of mechanical disengaging
clutch, then you look for a switch that has much larger contacts and is
rated at a much heavier duty cycle.
Hope this gives some room for thought,
Tony Moore
in Melbourne,
Australia
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:35 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
Chuck,
Not being the electrical type (though I do my fair share of "normal" stuff)
I would have to wonder if perhaps the damage to the switch is caused when
you turn the lathe off? When the magnetic field that lives in a running
motor collapses across the windings a much larger "back" voltage can be
created sending an arc across the points of the switch. Just a guess, but
perhaps a different switch *is* required that would handle this back surge a
little better.
As to why it would fail towards the middle of a session, I would think that
a badly corroded contact surface would not offer good electrical contact and
the remaining surface would "eat itself alive" for want of better
terminology.
Hope this helps.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 8:01 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lathe Switch
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Steger <chuck.steger at erols.com>
To: 'Woodworking' <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:48 PM
Subject: Lathe Switch
> I've been using my lathe quite a bit and about every two months, my
>switch goes bad and I have to get a new one. The switch is just your
>basic on-off switch (speed is controlled by step pulley). The motor is
>3/4 hp that draws 11 amps. I've been buying a regular switch (like a
>light switch) that is rated for 20 amps.
What grade of switch are you using? The cheap $.79 household variety
could well burn out rapidly in heavy use switching inductive (motor) loads.
I would suggest going to an electrical supply store (not a home center or
hardware store) and asking for a switch which is rated for your application.
Don't be surprised if it costs $5, $10 or even $15.
John
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 8:19 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Lathe: roughing out bowls
I have made a series of circle templates out of corrugated cardboard. I
attach them to the wood (usually log for me, as I do mostly natural edge
bowls) with a long push pin, using the center hole made by the compass
point. I then cut almost perfect circles out on my bandsaw. I very often
will them rough out the bowl between centers, turning a tenon at the foot
of the bowl to then mount in my stronghold chuck.
Wendy
From: jamesmcm at mail2.nai.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 2:05 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Lathe: roughing out bowls
i clamp a piece of plywood to the bandsaw table the ply has a series of
holes drilled in it 1" apart the bottom of the ply is routed out so a cut
off 16 penney nail can sit in hole and be flush.the nail then protrudes
about 1" and i then can put a bowl blank with a small hole 1/8" drilled in
it on it. clamp the ply so the holes line up just offset from teeth of
blade. start cutting blank where the distance from pin to edge is least,
pick hole in ply correspondingly.
the slot in ply wood which allows you to slide it around blade should also
have enough slop at blade for final adjustment, fire up saw and cut perfect
blank.
i have used this method to make bowls 16" in diameter by 7 1/2" high, i
have a 16 inch bandsaw. james
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; AG Kesmetis
Subject: Re: Leather to wood
>Do I need to use an adhesive or can I
>just wrap and staple it to the bottom? Do I need to worry about the leather
>stretching or shrinking over time? I've never worked with leather before so
>any help is appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>AG Kesmetis
It's been awhile since I've had my leather tools out, but I started doing
some leathercraft a few years ago (1959). I have never covered a nice wood
anything with leather, but have made some leather chair seats (replaced some
worn out caning), wastebasket covers, etc. I have a wastebasket with a
leather cover that was carved with a hunting scene and was attached to a
metal wastebasket 38 years ago and given to my great uncle for Christmas.
He has since passed on, but I have the wastebasket. The leather has not
shrunk or cracked.
For chair seats and for this wastebasket cover, I have always used a lace up
method of attachment so I could pull it up real tight when I applied it.
Once done, I have not had to redo it. I think it would be hard to pull the
leather over the edge of the table and get it tight without some way of
stretching it.
Another possibility is to cut out an inset in the top and make a leather
insert as an accent leavinga nice Oak border. They would complement each
other very nicely. Then, the leather could be "glued" in place and you
would avoid the need for stretching it over the edges.
Mack Neff
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 9:34 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Leather to wood
I'm making an end table with an 18" x 24" top and am going to wrap the top
in leather. I'm going to use oak. Do I need to use an adhesive or can I
just wrap and staple it to the bottom? Do I need to worry about the leather
stretching or shrinking over time? I've never worked with leather before so
any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:06 PM
To: 'AG Kesmetis'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Leather to wood
There is an article on this subject in American Woodworker -
Issue Page Article Name
68/Oct1998 50 New life for a garage sale
bureau - cover/veneer with leather
Zdenek
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 11:52 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Leather to wood
First *big disclaimer*: I've never done what you are doing.
That said, I wouldn't try to glue the entire piece of leather down to the
wood. Invariably the wood and leather are going to expand and contract
differently over time.
I have a number of very old dining chair which have leather covered seat
bottoms. They are simply leather wrapped over padding and tacked in around
their hidden bottom area. I would think that your stapling plan should be
just fine. Also, by stapling you allow for relatively easy leather
replacement in the future if and when it becomes worn out.
John
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:34 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Leather to wood
One prep tip is to fold the edges of the leather around a piece of
upholstery cardboard. This will form an edge to stretch against and
will provide stiffness between your points of fastening (tacks or
staples). There is a carpet install product that is called z-bar
which can be used in a similar way.
The key is to stretch from one corner to the other. Lets call the
sides north, south, east, and west.
Attach the leather to the underside of the SE corner.
Now stretch the leather to the N and attach the NE corner.
Now tack the line from the SE corner to the NE corner.
Next stretch from the SE corner to the SW corner and attach.
Now tack the line from the SE corner to the SW corner.
If you have done this correctly the leather should be tight from the
SW to the NE diagonally across your table top.
You now want to work toward the NW corner with both sides.
Start in the NE corner and stretch N and slightly west as you tack.
When you have made it to the NW corner start in the SW corner and
stretch mostly W and a little N as you tack.
It wouldn't hurt to put a little baby powder on the table under the
leather to help the leather slide. Plan on using heavy pliers and a
friend to stretch the leather as you go. Leather is a natural product
and don't expect the leather to stretch evenly at all points along
each direction. If you get a wrinkle in the top they should disappear
on your final stretches to the NW corner. If the wrinkles don't
disapear remove the tacks and stretch again. Always stretch from one
corner to the opposite. If you stretch from SE to NE then NE to NW
then NW to SW you will almost certainly have excess along the S edge.
SE to NE then SE to SW then NE to NW and finally SW to NW (unless you
are left handed then do it the other way around;~) just kidding).
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Leather to wood
Author: AG Kesmetis <aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net> at internet-mail
Date: 12/14/98 1:12 PM
I'm making an end table with an 18" x 24" top and am going to wrap the top
in leather. I'm going to use oak. Do I need to use an adhesive or can I
just wrap and staple it to the bottom? Do I need to worry about the leather
stretching or shrinking over time? I've never worked with leather before so
any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 12:42 PM
To: 'AG Kesmetis'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Leather to wood
AG,
There is a store in Berkley, Calif where the owner is one of the friendliest
and most helpfull people I have ever met. He does a lot of work with
leather and I am sure he would be glad to discuss it with you.
reach him at http://www.caning.com
John
===================
-----Original Message-----
From: AG Kesmetis [mailto:aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 9:34 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Leather to wood
I'm making an end table with an 18" x 24" top and am going to wrap the top
in leather. I'm going to use oak. Do I need to use an adhesive or can I
just wrap and staple it to the bottom? Do I need to worry about the leather
stretching or shrinking over time? I've never worked with leather before so
any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: RAKENEL at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 8:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Link Belt ? Not Wood Related
Hi To All.
Sorry to bother you, but.
With all the hype on link belts got me to think.(some thing i try not to do.)
Would link belts take the abuse of lawn and garden equip. Clutch pullys runing
on back side? And to make this wood related lawn mower drive belts. With the
sticks in my lawn mower takes a beating.
Thanks & sorry to bother
Budd In Syracuse NY
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:09 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Link Belt Advise
Had a lot of fun this weekend at the Woodworking Show and only spent $25.
Found the local wood turners club and will be joining. Have plans to spend
a bunch upgrading my aging Delta Contractor's Saw though. New blade, fence
and link belt should do it. I know Don, I know, don't forget the mag
switch with the giant "off" button, etc, etc, etc, ......and zero clearance
insert. :-))
Does anyone know if a link belt will run on standard machined pulleys? I
would like to upgrade just the belt since I put machined pulleys on it when
purchased many moons ago.
The other reason for this post is a half humorous one. While performing the
demo of a Forrest blade on a table saw, the demonstrator asked if anyone in
the group watching had a Forrest blade. The gentleman to my right laughed
and said "yeah three" and held up three fingers of which the middle was
missing from the knuckle up.
Come to find out he lost part of his finger using a CMS. He was pushing the
blade through the cut and it bit him.
Glad to see he still had a good sense of humor.
Made me a think more about blade safety.
Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:12 PM
To: Horstman, B. Dean; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Dean,
>From what I have seen, you do not need the machined pullies to use the link
belts. I put the belt on mine contractors saw and had no problems yet. It
did improve the saw also. I think they were worth the investment.
Al
Big al on the irc
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 8:41 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Ok, I know what they are, but what exactly do they do? I've always thought
of a link belt as one of those JC Whitney things that one would only use in
an emergency, and then only if pantyhose/nylons were not available.
One observation I have made, especially on my Jet belt driven drill press
(two belts actually, across three sets of pulleys) is the
stiffness/resistance when turning the chuck by hand to tighten a drill. Is
all this .. friction.. due to my standard V belts?
If I speculate that a link belt will cause my .. machines.. to spin more
freely, and this being a benefit, are there any trade offs? Possibly, link
belts slip. Or, link belts wear out quicker, or link belt cost. And, any
other benefits? I think I've seen something before about noise reduction
too when using link belts. Do they ride higher or lower in the pulleys,
and will this affect my machine/power adversely due to change in RPM?
I guess I've taken the mind set that since a manufacturer, for example
Powermatic, distributes a top of the line cabinet saw (66) with a double V
belt, that this was a good thing. Obviously, their designers feel a V belt
is the proper thing to use, or, maybe their bean counters feel it is a
proper thing to use... Hmmm...
On the other hand, my mind set has changed over the last few years for
cutting edge tools. In this case, very rarely does the manufacturer
distribute these tools, "user ready". Now, I buy the tool with the mind set
that I can't wait to get it home and grind and hone and polish it before
even attempting to use it.
Thanks, Todd Burch.
----------
From: aknack at voyager.net
Dean,
>From what I have seen, you do not need the machined pullies to use the link
belts. I put the belt on mine contractors saw and had no problems yet. It
did improve the saw also. I think they were worth the investment.
Al
Big al on the irc
-----Original Message-----
From: Horstman, B. Dean <DHorstman at HEWM.com>
>Have plans to spend
>a bunch upgrading my aging Delta Contractor's Saw though. New blade, fence
>and link belt should do it. I know Don, I know, don't forget the mag
>switch with the giant "off" button, etc, etc, etc, ......and zero
clearance
>insert. :-))
>
>Does anyone know if a link belt will run on standard machined pulleys? I
>would like to upgrade just the belt since I put machined pulleys on it when
>purchased many moons ago.
>Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 5:55 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Todd,
The main advantage is to reduce vibration which makes the saw run smoother.
I am not convinced that they are a "needed" item. Just something to make
your saw or other tool run better. I have heard several comments on how
much they improved the tool that I was willing to try it. In my case on the
contractor saw the motor would bounce when it was running. It was real
obvious when the motor coasted down. Shaking as much as a inch up and down
after turning it off. After I put on the link belt, all that shaking
stopped. Did it improve my cutting. No. The fire wood box fills up just as
fast :-).
Al
Big al on the irc
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:07 PM
To: Allen Knack
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Al,
This reduction of vibration woulld really be good on a lathe... would a
link belt work here as well?
Wendy
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:33 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Hi, Wendy:
A lot of the folks who contribute to rec.crafts.woodturning swear by
the link belts for their lathes. I am not 100% sure how well they
would work on the Reeves drive variable speed lathe that I use,
though. (Delta) Anyone know?
Bob Hamilton
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:01 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
I have a Nova 3000 lathe...with a Leeson 1 hp variable speed drive motor...
anyone know if link belts would work for me ? and cut down on vibration?
thanks.... Wendy
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
My understanding essentially is, that Link Belts because they do not
have a "joint" where the ends are bonded and joined together, run much
smoother which results in less vibration. I also understand that unless
running on machined steel pulleys, what benifit could be derived from
the link belt is somewhat negated.
Are some of you saying there are other important benifits to a link belt
too?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:18 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: RE: Link Belt Advise
Well, I've got to weigh in on this one. When I inherited my father's
TS (Craftsman - circa 1950's), I added a new blade (WW II), a new fence
(Beismeyer), and the link belt and pulley's. I've got to say that for
the money I invested, the TS runs SUPER now. No, it's not a Unisaw/PM
66 but *for the money* it's a much, much better saw. As Al noted, I'm
not a better woodworker but the saw is better and that can't hurt my
skills, right! Bottom line is you have to evaluate the need on your
particular TS. I feel it's well worth the money. BTW, the cheapest I
found link belts was at Grainger's.
While I'm at it, I also added the PALS system to my saw. What a huge
difference in tuning my saw. For those that aren't aware, the PALS
system (don't ask me what it stands for) is 2 L-shaped metal pieces
that fit on to your trunion bolts. The top of the L has an allen screw
or hex nut (your choice) that pushes against your trunion bolt. Tuning
the saw is a piece of cake with this system. I use a dial indicator on
my blade against the miter slot and can tune this baby dead on. All I
do is turn the allen screws to gently bring it into alignment (as
opposed to beating it with a hammer and a block of wood). And once it
is aligned, it stays there (as opposed to jumping back out of alignment
when you cinch down the trunion bolts). I think I paid $50 for it but
I'd have to recheck to be sure. Worth every penny, IMO.
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Link Belt Advise
Wendy,
I saw such a big difference in my TS that I added link belts to my
jointer, lathe, & drill press. As I posted earlier, I got them from
Grainger's (cheapest I found). It's not just hype. The links help
anywhere a motor and pulley can be found out of alignment. The obvious
answer would be, "well, then align them". Sometimes easier said than
done on old equipment. Besides, for optimum use and less vibration,
they have to be aligned right on. The links "pivot" allowing smooth
transition of power w/o vibration.
Chuck
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:43 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: RE: Link Belt Advise
Don,
Don't know if this is qualifies as a benefit or just a good feature
of a link belt. When you buy the link belt, it is usually not
"connected". Since I bought several, you can size the belt to fit any
machine. Makes it handy when you need to replace a belt on the fly. You
always have the right size.
Chuck
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:13 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Donald,
My understanding is similar, but I believe another part of the issue is the
fact that solid v-belts tend to develop a memory for their oval shape at
rest. When the saw is running, every pass of the ends of the remembered
oval over the pulleys causes some vibration. Kind of like driving on bias
ply tires on a really cold day; until the tire warms up, it remembers the
flat spot that was sitting on the ground, and rides kind of rough. What
little woodworking I get to do, I doubt my table saw belt ever has a chance
to warm up enough to forget the oval, and probably coasts back to the exact
same oval the next time it is turned off. As a matter of fact, I think I
will put a mark on my belt and see if it does indeed stop in the exact same
place (or 180 degrees from that place) every time.
Zane Harris
Donald Weisman wrote:
> My understanding essentially is, that Link Belts because they do not
> have a "joint" where the ends are bonded and joined together, run much
> smoother ...
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:10 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Hi, Don:
One big advantage of using a link belt on a lathe in particular, is
that typically the driven pulley on a lathe is in between the
headstock support bearings. This means that to change out a normal
belt, the headstock spindle must be disassembled from the bearing
supports so that the belt can be slipped on from the end. With a link
belt, the links sort of "button" together, so it can be changed out
without disassembling anything.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Gardner [marchave at netins.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:49 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Link Belt Advise
Chuck, I see from your note (below) that we are both owners of 50's era
equipment. I bought my Craftsman TS 2nd hand at an "estate sale" along with a
50's era Craftsman joiner. I bought them about a month ago and haven't yet
upgraded all the components. I started with the link belt (but not the pulleys)
based on a friend's recommendation. However, I have some other questions I'd
like to ask.
First off, did you buy the 30" fence or the 52" fence. My saw is essentially
just the 10" tilting arbor saw - table top version, circa 1954. The previous
owner owner had built a wooden stand to which I have added some casters. There
are no left or right extensions. I think I can add the 30" fence without
worrying too much about the extra weight off to one side. However, the 52"
fence looks to me like it will need some kind of support out at the end.
Normally that comes from the table board and its support. I'm planning on
building/buying a table extension for the right hand side. I'm just wondering
how beefy that has to be.
So, which fence did you buy and what did you do to support it.
Also, when you raise and lower the saw blade, does that adjust the tension in
the belt, separate from adjusting the belt tension by adjusting the motor mount?
Is there anyway to overcome this?
From: Donald Weisman (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Linseed Oil Finish
Ron Devlin wrote:
>
> When using linseed oil as a finish, I have seen recomendations to
Besides, I hate the smell of turp too!
>
> Ron Devlin
Is Mineral Sprits offensive to you too? If not, try it...you'l... .
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ron Devlin (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [rpdevlin at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Linseed Oil Finish
When using linseed oil as a finish, I have seen recomendations to cut
it 1/2 to 1/4 with turpentine. Why? I don't know. Any reason to not
use it straight without cutting? Besides, I hate the smell of turp too!
Ron Devlin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Pianoman (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Linseed Oil Finish
I believe the cutting is to allow the oil to be thinner so that it soaks
deeper into the wood, providing better protection and finish. Mostly
protection. I have done this, and it seems to help. I've just finished a
non-toolchest for my, well, guess it's not gonna go to my nephew after all.
Anyway, I did the finish in Linseed Oil, and it looks great. Just be
prepared to put on lots of thin coats for the best looks!
David Dahl
Still needing to build that toolchest in Appleton WI
From: Graham McCulloch (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Log Slices
Bruce and all;
I and by the way, Harvey Freeman, live in Halifax, Nova Scotia.
Shubenacadie is (I believe) north of us. Halifax (Greater Halifax) has a
population of around 350,000. Small by US standards, but we like it that
way. We have all of the amenities required, Kent, eqivalent to Home
Depot, Booze stores (regulated) and even a couple of large Sears stores.
Halifax an all season port city, is now the port of choice for most
North American shipments from Europe, parts of Asia and Africa.
Contrary to the belief of most Americans (and I wish that they would
follow suit and look at a map), we do not ski all year round and do not
live in igloos. Even the natives that live 2,000 or 3,000 miles further
north enjoy the summer months.
We are not responsible for the "Cold Canadian Air" that your weather
forecasters so quickly blame on us. Most of that air originates in the
Arctic. It then goes down to Alaska and they send it to us. We are not
going to keep it, so we pass it on to you people. However, we do save it
until there are enough chicken livered Canadians in Florida and then we
turn on all the fans and aim them south. Just a reminder.
Oh, the water just beyond the Bay of Fundy is the Atlantic Ocean.
Graham
ShortCuts
http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
Bruce Gowens wrote:
>
> Just got Encarta, and with it was a 30-day trial version
> of something called the virtual globe (which doesn't have
> enough detail outside the US for my taste--"Paris, France"
> gives only a map of Europe), BUT it did find Shubenacadie at
> Lat. 45 degrees 7 minutes North and Long. 63 degrees 23
> minutes West. Slighly south from the Midas Basin of the Bay
> of Fundy, on a connecting body of water that was not
> identified. So now I know where you live, so don't every
> cross me again! :) This is a "globe" and not an atlas, so
> I wonder how large your town is.
>
> For parity, I'm at lat. 38 degrees 4 minutes North,
> Long. 122 degrees 14 minutes West. My town is about 3500
> population, but located near high population centers.
>
> Graham McCulloch wrote:
> >
> > Don;
> > You 'mericans don't know nuttin!
> > Actually a town called Shubenacadie, about 60 kilometers (45 miles in
> > 'merican) north of Halifax is exactly half way between the equator and
> > the north pole. And on top of that, our country is bigger than yours, so
> > there. Ha!
> >
> > Graham
> > ShortCuts
> > http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
> >
> > Donald Weisman wrote:
> > >
> > > Graham McCulloch wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey Don;
> > > > I've been up for hours.
> > >
> > > If I lived close the to North Pole I'd be up for hours too.
> > >
> > > > At this point, I am still sourcing, within Nova Scotia, for the logs,
> > > > but I do have some promising leads (they have to be over 250 yrs. old)
> > > > and am taking a trip to one of them tomorrow.
> > >
> > > If you don't like what you see, there's always CA(lifonia) Redwoods.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I also thinks that I have the answer to preserving them. Chris Martin,
> > > > the manager of our Lee Valley store suggests that the log slices (3-4
> > > > inches thick with bark intact) be soaked in PEG (Polyethyl Glycol) for
> > > > about 8 weeks and then be allowed to dry out for a few more.
> > > >
> > > > It seems that Peg (in simple terms) displaces the fluid (sap) in the
> > > > cells of the wood and therefor prevents shrinkage and cracking. The
wood
> > > > can then be worked and finished in a normal fashion. Peg is not
cheap, a
> > > > 10 lb. block is about $50. and is dissolved into a gallon of water. I
> > > > have not figured how much per log it will take, but I will have to
> > > > jerry-rig some kind of container.
> > >
> > > Graham, I thought of PEG when you first sent your E-mail. The reason I
> > > didn't suggest it is that somehow I'm under the impression that it is
> > > gummy or sticky. But I wasn't really sure so I didn't want to suggest
> > > it. Hopefully I'm wrong and it is not sticky and works for you. I still
> > > however persist in my thoughts about the immenent cracking due to drying
> > > stresses.
> > > >
> > > > It now looks like I may be doing about 20 of these. I'll keep you
> > > > posted.
> > >
> > > Please do.
> > >
> > > > Graham
> > > > ShortCuts
> > > > http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
> > > >
> > > > Donald Weisman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > G'moring:
> > > > > Is it too soon for me to be curious about the progress or
decision of
> > > > > the cross section piece for the local brewery?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Don Weisman
> > > > > Abacus Furniture Repair
> > >
> > > --
> > > Don Weisman
> > > Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bruce Gowens (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Log Slices
My goodness, a stoke of genius!!! Why didn't any of
the rest of us think of that?????
I am presuming that everyone else here is feeling as
foolish as I am.
Cheryl & Bill wrote:
>
> Graham...
>
> Why not just bag each log in a heavy plastic bag, pour some peg in with it,
> and force out the air?
>
> Bill Ridenour
> Toucan Furniture
From: Kurt A. Byfield [kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: looking for a wood related wav
Here's a few:
Hand saw (very good)
http://forsite.net/kimh/aug2/sawf.wav
Power saw (also very good)
http://forsite.net/kimh/aug2/saw.wav
Hand Saw (short, but not bad)
http://www.personal.u-net.com/~orlando/saw.wav
And of course, The Tool Man:
ftp://ftp.wavplace.com/pub/feb/hiarr.wav
Enjoy, Kurt
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
Only in America do we use the word "politics" to describe the
process so well: "Poli" in latin meaning "many" and "tics"
meaning "blood-sucking creatures"
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:46 AM
To: mcarmel at oshadata.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Looking for seachest plans
>I would like to obtain a set of plans for a traditional seachest. Can
>anyone provide a source? Thanks in advance.
Try looking in Roy Underhills books, I believe the one that I saw it
in was "The Woodwrights Apprentice", but its in one of his.
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:16 AM
To: mcarmel at oshadata.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Looking for seachest plans
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:17:31 -0500 Matthew Carmel <mcarmel at oshadata.com>
writes:
>I would like to obtain a set of plans for a traditional seachest. Can
>anyone provide a source? Thanks in advance.
-------------
Plans and article on making a seachest in _The Woodwrights's Apprentice_
by Roy Underhill, paperback in print from the U. of North Carolina Press.
I also have a set of plans from a very old copy of "Wooden Boat"
Magazine but not as detailed as the above set, other than instructions
for the fancy work on the handles. For the best information on that see,
_The Art of Knotting and Splicing_, Cyrus L. Day, published by the U.S.
Naval Institute, Annapolis; out of print, I think, but a good library
will have a copy.
Good luck. Sea chests are the most satisfactory project I work on.
While on the subject of seafaring stuff, anything by Bruce Bingham, N.A.
is just excellent, not only for the good ideas of making life and skill
afloat more rewarding but also for the excellent sketches. His, _The
Sailor's Sketchbook_ has numerous projects from a workbench, through
making a three-strand Turk's head to a simple little scarfing jig to use
with your hand plane. His description of using a "tick stick to take off
a pattern, as for example the inner shape of a hull to put in a bulkhead,
is the best I have seen.
Glen, landlocked in Minneapolis
From: Larry Mamlet [mamlet at dmv.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Low -priced (?) lathes
I am looking for an affordable lathe. Has anyone had experience with the
Delta
or Jet wood-lathes in the $500-$600 range? We will probably want to do more
faceplate turning -- including outboard -- than spindle-work.
Should we consider other machines in this $ range?
Information, suggestions and warnings all will be welcome.
Barbara & Larry Mamlet
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:17 PM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Low -priced (?) lathes
I got the Delta........ It's a well made entry level lathe..... Get a
decent set of tools.... not the taiwan ones........
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Proofread carefully to be sure you didn't any words out.....
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:05 PM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Low -priced (?) lathes
Hi B&L,
I had the Delta for about 4 years before moving up to a Nova lathe, and
found it to be a great first lathe. I was very versatile, wiht the swivel
motor for outboard turning, and I really liked that it was so portable. The
motor comes off easily, and I could take the lathe off the stand and get it
all in my car by myself. I agree with Brian also.... get good tools from
the beginning.
Wendy.
Southern Vermont
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 5:21 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Lumber Storage Rack
I'm going to build a lumber storage rack in my basement and tie the
vertical supports to my ceiling joists. I'll use the vertical supports
to attach the arms that will hold the lumber. Should I tie in every
joist (which would essentially be like stickering every 16 inches) or
is this overkill and only use every other joist?
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 5:49 AM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lumber Storage Rack
More than likely, every third joist would be adequate for all but the
heaviest of heavy loads.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 7:52 AM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lumber Storage Rack
Are you going to DRY wood there or just store it?
What is the minimum length of the material you'll put on it?
If you do every 3rd as Don suggests, anything less than 4' will be on
the floor.
Just a thought.
Jim
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 10:23 AM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: Lumber Storage Rack
Chuck : Assuming you will store sticks in the 8' range, and your joists are 16" o.c., this rack will accommodate 26 1/2" between uprights :
a.. take 14 lengths of 2x4 36" long
b.. clamp 3 2x's together
c.. starting at 11 1/2" from the end, bore the wide face 5 3/4" on center for 1/2" pipe, centering side/side
d.. the paddle bit depth should be to completely penetrate the top two, and mark the last one for the next volley
e.. repeat `till 10 have been through-bored
f.. for four, move the hole centerline some 5/8" nearer to one edge
g.. these holes will face inwards and will give full support to the ends
h.. cut a 3" deep bridle joint on the end, centered
i.. if at all possible, start with one of the the rack's access ends on the 3rd ceiling joist, some 4-5' from the wall. This way you can sort/retreive shorts from either end.
j.. snap one chalk line at 11 1/2", parallel to the wall having the length of the rack. The 10" clearance is for air space
k.. snap a 2nd chalk line at 40", parallel to the wall along the length of the rack
l.. attach the bored uprights to each ceiling joist in succession, with a 3/8" x 4 1/4" bolt set, aligning the face of the 2x4 to the wall side of the chalk line
m.. attach them to each ceiling joist in succession, with a 3/8" x 5" carriage bolt set, aligning the face of the 2x4 to the wall side of the chalk line
n.. the inside face/face dimension should be 26 3/4"
o.. nine 10' lengths of either 1/2" EMT tubing or water pipe, will yield thirty-six 30" pieces, you'll need 35
This will give you some flexibility in stacking/sorting the system. The pipes will be loose, and can be arranged to suite future needs. Like pegboard, only different. I did this in my out building and it's working fine.
This layout assumes orientation of the rack to be at right angles to the ceiling joists.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 3:45 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lumber Storage Rack
I'd suggest every second, or even every one. A lot of
bow can happen in 48 inches--longer than you can do a 3/4
(real) shelf for books. Also, there will be shorter lengths
of wood and more frequent hangers will allow them to be
supported on both ends.
I guess the real answers depend on the design--which was
not stated. My answer is based on the hanging racks I have,
"U" forms from the ceiling for wood to be slipped into.
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 1998 9:52 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Lumber Storage Rack
Chuck
I built the horizontal storage rack on p.185 of Landis' Workshop book
(seems very similar to your design, using overhead joists as the anchor
point).
I used every second joist - supports arms were 34" apart and this
spacing worked out fine for me in terms of handling various lengths of
stock, no sag in the stock, etc.
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: Richard Bienvenu [histzut at showme.missouri.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 12:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Fwd: Magnetic Switches, inherent dangers
>Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:01:01 -0600
>To: kayak at one.net
>From: Richard Bienvenu <histzut at showme.missouri.edu>
>Subject: Magnetic Switches, inherent dangers
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>I just visited the web page or Rick Christopherson and came across his
>lead article on magnetic switches. An interesting co-incidence, given
>Zane's question. This is one of the new AW staff who sent the list that
>reassuring message.
>
>http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/
>
>
>>Can anyone explain to me (or better yet show me a schematic) of how a
>>magnetic switch for a 220V device works? I put a 3HP 220V motor on my
>>table saw, and would really like to add a magnetic switch (right now I'm
>>just using a 220V toggle light switch; it works, but it is awkward to
>>get at while trying to handle a full sheet of 3/4).
>>
>>Zane Harris
>
>Richard Bienvenu
>Columbia, MO
>
>
>
From: Brent McLaughlin (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [bwm at sbpa.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: RE: mail-order lumber
Robb,
I recently got an order of birds eye and curly maple from these people. I
am very satisfied with the service and the lumber that I received. For the
project I am building I didn't require a large quantity of both types of
maple. So I requested they split up the 20bf bundles they offer 60/40 and
they said no problem. Upon receiving and inspecting the lumber I found they
didn't charge for the portions of the board that are unfit for use.
Haus of Hardwoods
http://206.96.80.3/hoh/index.htm
From: Daniel A. Segel (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: mail-order lumber
There are numerous hardwood dealers out there who will ship wood, and
several of them have web sites. I recently ordered (and received) a
shipment of white oak from Blue Ox Hardwoods in Buffalo, NY and was
completely satisfied with it. This was the second time I ordered from them.
Their web site is http://www.blueoxhardwoods.com/. Here are several other
URLs you can check out (I haven't checked these all lately, so some of them
may be offline:
http://www.northstarlumber.com/
http://www.curlymaple.com/wood.shtml
http://
www.walllumber.com/index.htm
http://www.badgerwood.com/pricelist.html
http:/
/www.ainop.com/northstar/
http://www.curtislumber.com/hardwood.html
http://w
ww.dycon.com/woodcraft/
http://www.walllumber.com/
http://www.blueoxhardwood
s.com/
http://www.bristolvalley.com/
http://www.erinet.com/hardwood/hardwood
.html
http://www.nwtimber.com/
http://www.plix.com/~com/hoh/
http://members.
aol.com/lljlumber/index.html
http://shell3.ba.best.com/~sirotic/westwind/woo
dpr.html
Daniel
At 11:38 AM 9/29/98 -0500, robb_m at flt.com wrote:
>
>
> I'm looking to send a friend in PA a wedding present of wood (he gets
> to play in the shop, she gets the furniture). I'm not looking for
> anything too exotic, just some white oak and curly maple.
>
> There was a discussion here a while ago about vendors that would ship
> wood, but at the time I wasn't interested. Does anyone have a name
> and number I can rely on to ship quality material sight unseen?
>
> Thanks,
> Robb
>
> (if this was discussed yesteray, I apologize--been traveling and
> unsubscribed)
>
>
>
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 3:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Make Your Tools Last
All the more reason for strongly considering a TEFC (totally enclosed
fan cooled) motor when purchasing or replacing woodworking machine
motors...if you have a choice.
Personally, I think it's a damn shame that Woodworking machines are sold
with open dripproof motors just to keep the price a measley few bucks
lower. It's not like they don't know where it will be used.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 11:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Make Your Tools Last
I was prompted to pass on a few quick but important tips by the discussions
on cleaning debris from tablesaw motors.
Working for Rockwell/Delta for many years repairing power tools gave me a
rich appreciation for keeping tools clean. I can not stress enough cleaning
the sawdust and other contaminants from all types of power tools. It will
add significantly to their life as well as reduce the amount of maintenance
required. Most power tools fail from either overloading, dirt accumulation
or stuck brushes.
Tools with brushes will fail less often if you remove the brushes then blow
out the housing with compressed air. Slide the brushes up and down in their
slots several times to clean the openings and be sure they slide freely
before securing.
Open motors on stationary equipment (especially single phase with start
winding contacts) should also be blown out periodically with compressed air.
They will run cooler and last longer. Heat from overload or dirt buildup
breaks down the insulation on the windings and leads to that nasty burning
smell.
A few quick minutes with the air hose can save lots of money and
frustration. As always, please unplug tools before working on them and wear
full eye protection when using compressed air.
Remember to lubricate those tools that need it.
As my supervisor used to tell us almost every day: "A clean tool is a happy
tool".
Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 7:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Make Your Tools Last
Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> Personally, I think it's a damn shame that Woodworking machines are sold
> with open dripproof motors just to keep the price a measley few bucks
> lower. It's not like they don't know where it will be used.
> --
In a similar vein, it's a damn shame that makers of gardening equipment
don't spend a few pennies more for brass and stainless steel when they
sell you a $100 machine for spreading lime and fertilizer. With a 1%
increase in the cost of materials, the gardening machines would last
forever. The same is true of woodworking machines. Unfortunately, the
bean counters overrule the technicians in most industries. That
includes health care in my little corner of the world, but that's
off-topic and suitable for private exchanges only. Regards,
Gerald
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 5:56 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Make Your Tools Last
>Personally, I think it's a damn shame that Woodworking machines are sold
>with open dripproof motors just to keep the price a measley few bucks
>lower. It's not like they don't know where it will be used.
>Don Weisman
Total agreement from me on this Don. In the last few months there
have been threads on rec.norm alluding to a manufacturing standard set
by some of the cheaper tool companies that have their products failing
after so many hours of usage. The thinking is "whadda ya want for
$29, a jig saw that lasts forever". I've no way of verifying this
tactic but considering the number of "I gotta have one of those"
weekend/maybe never woodworkers it does make sense.
Buy the best and cry once?
Keith Bohn
P.S. The December 1998 issue of Fine Woodworking noted there were
600,000 Unisaws made since 1938. At least a few people are fortunate
enough to own some quality tools.
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 2:08 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Make Your Tools Last
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:56:21 GMT, Duke of URLs wrote:
>
>have been threads on rec.norm alluding to a manufacturing standard set
>by some of the cheaper tool companies that have their products failing
>after so many hours of usage. The thinking is "whadda ya want for
>$29, a jig saw that lasts forever". I've no way of verifying this
>tactic but considering the number of "I gotta have one of those"
>weekend/maybe never woodworkers it does make sense.
I took a route seminar from Marc Adams. He said that he had consulted
with some router manufactures. They said that they $39 router had a 5
hr designed life time. But they never had problems with returns.
It seems that they people that got these would try them out and
between the noise, torque, and a bit catching and riping the router
out of their hands they would be scared. 6 months later they would
try it again and have the same thing happen.
So it would go in a garage sale with 10 minutes of run time. Then the
same thing would happen to the next buyer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Brian Graham [bgraham at inforamp.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 6:52 PM
To: Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Mantel Clock Plans
Does anybody know of a source for Mantel Clock plans. I see that Lee Valley
sells the movements but would like to check out a few designs for the base.
Thanks Brian
Toronto ON
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 7:52 PM
To: bgraham at inforamp.net; Woodworking at TheOak
Subject: Re: Mantel Clock Plans
Klockit would have plans for these.
Check this address for a catalog:
Company Klockit Clockmakers
Phone 800 556-2548; 414 248-1150
Fax 414 248-9899
PO Box 636
Lake Geneva WI 53147 USA
Url: http://www.klockit.com
I know there are others as well. I've done business with these folks,
they're a Wisconsin business, and I got good materials (weather center
parts). I'm not sure how long my order took, I was out of town when it would
arrive and had it shipped to my office.
Hope this helps!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:23 PM
To: Ron Devlin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
Ron Devlin wrote:
>
> It came with MDF top that the neighborhood cats pee peed on (talk
Question: Should I go back to MDF and seal
> it with something or what? I need a top that won't warp, no duhhh!
>
> Ron Devlin
Ron,
Any top of practical thickness will sag, bend, and warp unless properly
supported, and thats the key.
Your neighbor chose a good surface. Go back to MDF and it's not even
necessary to seal it! A paste wax application will help though for
sliding items on it. If you would like to give it more protection or
heavy use, apply a hard surface laminate. White is a good choice, as you
can write different measurements on it and wash it off, easy.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:00 AM
To: Ron Devlin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
I agree with Don in that MDF is a better choice for the RAS
table. I use untempered 1/4 inch Masonite for an overlay on
my RAS table. It is easier on the blade than tempered
Masonite or Melamine. It makes a good sacrificial that can
be replaced easily and cheaply when the saw cuts in it get
too ratty. I use countersunk plastic flat head screws to
hold it down. That way I do not have to worry about running
the blade through a metal screw.
10Q,
Moose
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 3:48 PM
To: Robert Methelis
Cc: Moose and Betty; abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
Bob:
While there may be some uses that particle board is better than MDF,
I am not aware of them. Particle board and MDF were both designed as a
low cost alternative to more expensive products. It is more a question
of "Is it good enough for the application?" MDF tends to be good enough
for more applications than particle board, it is also more expensive.
Ken Martin
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:02 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Robert Methelis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
The only application I can think of where I would use
particle board instead of MDF is sub-flooring.
Well, there is ........
sheathing.....
cheap countertop substrate....
cheap shelves.....
hidden spacer blocks....
small chunks are good for throwing at the neighbor's dog
when he poops on my front lawn.......
10Q,
Moose
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:55 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
There are different grades of Particle Board.
The cheapest ones have very large particles and not much binder. That
is what is used in the cheaper furniture. The ones which will start
falling apart if you breath on them from across the room.
There is an industrial grade particle board which has a much finer
grain. It is water resistant. I have some cuts from
my kitchen 20 years ago. It has had on a concrete floor, used as a
backing board for drilling, and used as a protection block with a
clamp or when hammering and it is still in good shape.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:08 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: MDF or Particle Board?
Bob, 32 years ago, when I was pinching pennies, I built the kitchen
cabinets for my new house from particle board. The doors are laminated
front, back and on all edges with Formica. They are still as flat and
true as the day I made them, so particle board was obviously an
acceptable and inexpensive choice. On the other hand, I made the
mistake of using particle board for the flooring in my basement shop.
Even with a vapor barrier, and being laid on a flat 2x3 grid, it is
deteriorating. I dread the task of moving everything in my shop to
replace the flooring, but I'll have to do that soon. Still, some might
consider 27 years of service acceptable.
I'm not sure that MDF was an option available to me when I built the
cabinets. I'm pretty sure that pressure treated plywood was not an
option when I laid my shop floor. Many more options are available now,
or at least I'm more aware of them. I think the key is not whether
particle board is superior to MDF, but whether it is an acceptable lower
cost material for the application. BTW, I don't think MDF would have
done any better in my shop floor application, but particle board wasn't
the right choice either. Regards,
Gerald
Robert Methelis wrote:
>
> Out of curiousity.... what kind of applications would better be served by
> particle board than MDF.
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 12:35 PM
To: The OAK
Subject: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
Hi Gang,
if I am reading this thread correctly the essential point is that
"Melamine" is a brand name for a coating applied to a manufactured board
to provide a wipe off surface and protection against wear. A cooked on
"paint job" which is anti-stick.
Would you, irrespective of the adhesion or penetration of any other
"finish", glue after finishing without cutting back to bare material?
With what glue?
In what circumstances?
With what expected weaknesses?
With what expected advantages?
Where is Bob Flexner when you need him?
Geoff.
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 2:36 PM
To: gdmorgan
Cc: The OAK
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
gdmorgan wrote:
>
> Hi Gang,
> if I am reading this thread correctly the essential point is that
> "Melamine" is a brand name for a coating applied to a manufactured board
> to provide a wipe off surface and protection against wear. A cooked on
> "paint job" which is anti-stick.
That is a pretty succinct description, although some melamine and melamine type
coatings are not "cooked" on so that they are actually fused into the substrate.
> Would you, irrespective of the adhesion or penetration of any other
> "finish", glue after finishing without cutting back to bare material?
I have, as pointed out in my previous posts and likely would in future if I saw
the need for doing so. I can't speak to the success or results with other
materials such as lacquer and similar coatings as I've never experimented with
the adhesion qualities of melamine glue or polyurethane adhesives on those types
of coatings.
> With what glue?
For substrate to melamine "RooGlue" or another melamine adhesive. Incidentally
RooGlue in spite of its name is manufactured in the United States (I think).
For melamine to melamine joinery . . . polyurethane adhesive. I've had similar
results with lightly "scuffing" one of the melamine surfaces with fine grit
abrasives before application of the adhesive and without scuffing.
> In what circumstances?
With the melamine glue in carcass and jig construction. With the polyurethane
adhesive just to see what I could see and the "fun factor" involved. It takes
very little to entertain me. (grin)
> With what expected weaknesses?
None. In both cases as stated in an earlier post the bond was stronger than the
material. That is, when the joint was stressed to failure, the substrate of one
of the members came away with the opposing member.
> With what expected advantages?
In the case of the melamine glue, a more than adequate bond which would require
clamping, but no additional mechanical fastening (although the addition of
mechanical fasteners couldn't hurt).
In the case of polyurethane adhesive, unless mechanical fasteners are not an
option, I really can't see an advantage. If mechanical fasteners are not an
option because of appearance or some other factor, then polyurethane adhesives
could be the way to go in joining melamine to melamine coated surfaces.
Of course clamping, preparation and clean-up time is a factor in the use of both
adhesives.
And finally, never take MY word for anything. Although I never intentionally
lead folks astray, my working conditions and methods may not be the same as for
others. In short, test the methods and materials yourself. AND, always wear
these, "safety glasses."
Chuck
> Where is Bob Flexner when you need him?
> Geoff.
> --
> Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
> Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:32 AM
To: gdmorgan
Cc: The OAK
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
I just had to jump in here and add my two cents ($Can.) worth.
>From my understanding, Melamine (a trade name) is just the upper
layer(s) of plastic laminate (Arborite etc.) a much thicker product.
But, why go through all of the problems of cutting to size and gluing
when in fact it can be painted (sprayed, frushed or rolled)on.
Well over a year ago I used a melamine (small 'm') paint made by
National that they call a "Stratified" finish that is "more durable than
Melamine". I used it on our kitchen counter top and painted over the
existing plastic laminate. The laminate had to be 'roughened' with 150
sandpaper. Three coats were applied by roller and the coats levelled off
beautifully.
I can tell you that National's boast is a fact. We have beat it, scraped
it, dragged pots and pans over it and even laid hot pots on it (not too
hot). It has taken a real beating. We are now going to do the cabinet
interiors with it.
Graham
gdmorgan wrote:
>
> Hi Gang,
> if I am reading this thread correctly the essential point is that
> "Melamine" is a brand name for a coating applied to a manufactured board
> to provide a wipe off surface and protection against wear. A cooked on
> "paint job" which is anti-stick.
> Would you, irrespective of the adhesion or penetration of any other
> "finish", glue after finishing without cutting back to bare material?
> With what glue?
> In what circumstances?
> With what expected weaknesses?
> With what expected advantages?
> Where is Bob Flexner when you need him?
> Geoff.
> --
> Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
> Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
--
Graham
ShortCuts - http://www.shortcuts.ns.caFrom: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:18 AM
To: graham at shortcuts.ns.ca
Cc: gdmorgan; The OAK
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
Graham,
The product I've been referencing is already a "complete" product. There is no
gluing of the "melamine" coating. The product comes with the "melamine"
thermo-fused to the substrate. While the melamine coating is tough, I'd hate to
try to glue the very thin sheet (if available) to a substrate. It would be akin
to using "Saran Wrap", a product I always have trouble getting out of the
container. Never have figured out why I always crumple it. SWMBO could wrap an
elephant in it with nary a crease! (grin)
Sounds like your "melamine paint" is tough stuff.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Graham McCulloch wrote:
>
> I just had to jump in here and add my two cents ($Can.) worth.
> >From my understanding, Melamine (a trade name) is just the upper
> layer(s) of plastic laminate (Arborite etc.) a much thicker product.
> But, why go through all of the problems of cutting to size and gluing
> when in fact it can be painted (sprayed, frushed or rolled)on.
> Well over a year ago I used a melamine (small 'm') paint made by
> National that they call a "Stratified" finish that is "more durable than
> Melamine". I used it on our kitchen counter top and painted over the
> existing plastic laminate. The laminate had to be 'roughened' with 150
> sandpaper. Three coats were applied by roller and the coats levelled off
> beautifully.
> I can tell you that National's boast is a fact. We have beat it, scraped
> it, dragged pots and pans over it and even laid hot pots on it (not too
> hot). It has taken a real beating. We are now going to do the cabinet
> interiors with it.
>
> Graham
>
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 1:02 PM
To: graham at shortcuts.ns.ca; gdmorgan
Cc: The OAK
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
I have to agree with Graham, when we moved into our present house
there was a strong possibility we would have to move again. So we
wanted to spruce [wood connection] the place up both for ourselves
but also for a possible resale but we wanted to keep it low cost. We
purchased unfinished MDF kitchen cabinet doors and drawer fronts
which I sprayed with Canadian Tires brand of Melamine paint. I also
gave the counter top 3 coats, that was almost 5 years ago and except
for the odd chip its perfect. Actually Theresa has got quite deft at
touching up the odd mishap, keeps the can under the sink. She has
just reminded me that we also had the same paint tinted and sprayed
the bath tub to match a new suite we purchased at 50% off when one of
the Beaver stores closed. Its held up real well if you are not
looking for a gloss finish. However I would not do it again as it was
a nightmare trying to spray the inside of the tub without hitting the
wet parts with either the cup or hose, the things you do to save a
buck.
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
----------
> From: Graham McCulloch <graham at shortcuts.ns.ca>
> To: gdmorgan <gdmorgan at vision.net.au>
> Cc: The OAK <woodworking at theoak.com>
> Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
> Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:32 AM
>
> I just had to jump in here and add my two cents ($Can.) worth.
> From my understanding, Melamine (a trade name) is just the upper
> layer(s) of plastic laminate (Arborite etc.) a much thicker
product.
> But, why go through all of the problems of cutting to size and
gluing
> when in fact it can be painted (sprayed, frushed or rolled)on.
> Well over a year ago I used a melamine (small 'm') paint made by
> National that they call a "Stratified" finish that is "more durable
than
> Melamine". I used it on our kitchen counter top and painted over
the
> existing plastic laminate. The laminate had to be 'roughened' with
150
> sandpaper. Three coats were applied by roller and the coats
levelled off
> beautifully.
> I can tell you that National's boast is a fact. We have beat it,
scraped
> it, dragged pots and pans over it and even laid hot pots on it (not
too
> hot). It has taken a real beating. We are now going to do the
cabinet
> interiors with it.
>
> Graham
>
> gdmorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gang,
> > if I am reading this thread correctly the essential point
is that
> > "Melamine" is a brand name for a coating applied to a
manufactured board
> > to provide a wipe off surface and protection against wear. A
cooked on
> > "paint job" which is anti-stick.
> > Would you, irrespective of the adhesion or penetration of
any other
> > "finish", glue after finishing without cutting back to bare
material?
> > With what glue?
> > In what circumstances?
> > With what expected weaknesses?
> > With what expected advantages?
> > Where is Bob Flexner when you need him?
> > Geoff.
> > --
> > Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
> > Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
>
> --
> Graham
>
> ShortCuts - http://www.shortcuts.ns.ca
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 6:24 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
Geoff wrote:
> Where is Bob Flexner when you need him?
Certainly not working with melamine.
Keith Bohn
From: Lori Henderson [lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:25 AM
To: graham at shortcuts.ns.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
Hi, Graham
Thank you! I had been wondering if the Melamine ... sheets and paint ...
could withstand countertop wear. You answered that nicely.
Do you know if the paint can be tinted? I saw a can of the stuff in a
local store once, but haven't seen it since to read labels.
Thanks,
Lori
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 10:31 AM
To: lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
Hi Lori et all;
The National product can be tinted and I would venture to guess that the
other brands can be as well.
A little caution here though, the stuff stinks, make sure that the area
is well ventilated.
Graham
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:16 PM
To: lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca; graham at shortcuts.ns.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
I thought I had sent this to all, but I guess I hit the wrong button
again.
>I have to agree with Graham, when we moved into our present house
there was a strong possibility we would have to move again. So we
wanted to spruce [wood connection] the place up both for ourselves
but also for a possible resale but we wanted to keep it low cost. We
purchased unfinished MDF kitchen cabinet doors and drawer fronts
which I sprayed with Canadian Tires brand of Melamine paint. I also
gave the counter top 3 coats, that was almost 5 years ago and except
for the odd chip its perfect. Actually Theresa has got quite deft at
touching up the odd mishap, keeps the can under the sink. She has
just reminded me that we also had the same paint tinted and sprayed
the bath tub to match a new suite we purchased at 50% off when one of
the Beaver stores closed. Its held up real well if you are not
looking for a gloss finish. However I would not do it again as it was
a nightmare trying to spray the inside of the tub without hitting the
wet parts with either the cup or hose, the things you do to save a
buck.
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.<
----------
> From: Lori Henderson <lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca>
> To: graham at shortcuts.ns.ca
> Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Re: Melamine coated boards and adhesives
> Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 11:24 AM
>
> Hi, Graham
>
> Thank you! I had been wondering if the Melamine ... sheets and
paint ...
> could withstand countertop wear. You answered that nicely.
>
> Do you know if the paint can be tinted? I saw a can of the stuff in
a
> local store once, but haven't seen it since to read labels.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lori
>
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:41 AM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: melanine (long) stratified paint
Hi Rosemary;
Okay, 1 at a time and in order.
As to availability in the US? I'm not sure if the National product is
but there are certainly competitive products that are...maybe try Home
Depot or Color Your World.
I believe it is only available in a semi-gloss.
I used a foam brush to do the cutting in and used a short nap roller for
the rest. DO NOT use a foam roller as it will bubble.
We used about 2/3rds of a US quart (about 950ml) to do an 'L' shaped
counter top that is 12' x 2'6" and 6' x 2'6" with a double sink on the
6' side.
The cost was about $12 Canadian.
There was a pretty vast colour chart, but they will match almost any
colour through their computer scanner.
The product does have a strong smell that goes away in about a 1/2 hour.
Keep your windows open and use a fan to exhaust the odour.
The state on the can to wait 16 hours before re-coating, we applied
three coats from the same container but I believe that they reccommend
two.
We waited for a day and a half before putting the normal counter stuff
back on it, just to make sure. I am under the impression that it will
continue to harden for the following couple of weeks.
One more thing, to completely change the appearance of the counter, I
removed the 4" glued on back-splash and applied a 4" x 3/8" strip of
Maple and caulked the joint. I also covered the leading edge of the
counter with rounded over Maple. The Maple was treatedwith polyurethane
semi-gloss.
Whew!
Have fun, it sure changed the look of our counter-top.
Graham
Rosiedoe at aol.com wrote:
>
> Graham,
>
> I hope this type paint is available in the U.S.A. Have a few questions for
> you. What sort of finish did you get, i.e., matte, semigloss? You say you
> applied it with a roller. What did you use to cut into the corners, etc.?
> Also, what sort of coverage did you get and please give an idea re cost.
>
> My daughter has the world's ugliest countertop in the bathroom, made of
> plastic laminate. There are not words to describe how ugly this is. I think
> you've presented the solution!!
>
> Three more questions: Is this tintable and what sort of color selection is
> available. What ventilation requirements go with application? What is the
> curing time before using the painted surface?
>
> Thankfully awaiting your response, Rosemary, Roswell, Georgia
--
Graham
ShortCuts - http://www.shortcuts.ns.caFrom: NCYO at aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:54 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Messners UV Sealant
Hello folks,
I need advice, a month or so ago I built Lawn furniture and a low deck from
pressure treated fir. I thought it would look good in a Red wood stain, so I
bought a Brand I was not familliar with.
Messners, this variety of the product is made for pressure treated stock.
The problem is that it SWMBO doesn't like the results.
Can I use a solid stain over this product?
Do I need to Paint over it with a Latex paint?
What can I do (short of sanding it all off)
Any help will be accepted greatfully
Corey
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 3:29 PM
To: NCYO at aol.com
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Messners UV Sealant
Let it weather for a year and then use a pressure washer. If you can't
live with it for a year, then bleach it. Frankly, since she obviously
waited until it was done to decide that she didn't like it, I would
develop a real hearing problem and let time take care of her problem.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 5:50 PM
To: LeeHarper at aol.com
Cc: bhamon at 110.net; abacus at pdq.net; gardening at theoak.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mice Problems
Yeppers,
Mice can get through the smallest of holes. The good news is that in 4 to 5 days,
after they die in the walls, you won't smell a thing cause their tiny little
bodies deteriorate rather quickly. Rats, on the other hand, being of greater
volume, take much longer and can run you out of house and home for a good two
weeks.
The best approach is what Lee described in "rodent-proofing" however, this is a
little difficult to do on doors (especially wooden sliders as are frequently seen
on sheds). If you're going to use traps, I'd suggest glue traps. These don't
have to be filled with bait while risking pinching off the tips of your fingers,
just a small dallop of peanut butter in the middle and the mice get stuck to
them. Mice, being incredibly curious little animals, will come to see why their
little playmate is screaming and also get stuck. You can catch sometimes three on
one trap. This makes it your most economical option. You just throw them away
when you're ready for a new trap.
See Ya
Sharon
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 7:57 AM
To: Bruce Hamon
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: Mice problems
Bruce : I was having a similar condition in my outbuilding, here are some solutions I tried to solve it..
a.. flashiest...bottle caps filled with Coke-Cola. They scarf it up, can't burp, and explode.
b.. cheapest... cut down on the cat's food ration. A hungry cat, makes a better mouser
c.. time tested...snap traps
a.. handle the trap as little as possible, so as not to leave your scent
b.. place the un-set but baited trap, and check it in a few days. If the treat is gone, replace it once more. Set the trap the 3rd time
c.. bait the trap with a common cotton ball. The buggers love nesting fodder.
d.. higher tech...rat bait I have been told by an exterminator that the little buggers have developed an immunity to the ole standby DeCon. I have had excellent results with a product called Havoc. It comes in pouches that you place or toss, unopened. Mickey and friends will get to the treats and readily consume it. It's a little harder to acquire and my grandiose hardware store special orders it. It is made by Loveland Industries P.O.Box 1289 Greenley CO. 80632-1289 (970) 356-8920
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 8:14 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
> incidently, how do _you_ set to 1/1000ths on a real
> jointer--do _you_ have a micro adjustment, and if so, where did you get it?
Making a 'micro-adjustable' thingie is a very simple thing.
For about $2 to $3 per 'thingie' you can make one too, basically
what you are making is a lead-screw assembly. The parts are:
1) A threaded rod, I use 3/8" dia 16 thread per inch [tpi]
[with 16 tpi, I get 1 turn = 1/16 of an inch]
(home depot plumbing department -> 6ft for $1.41)
2) A hard to compress spring, found a the local auto
parts store in the 'brake repair' section. for $1.00
3) A LOCK-NUT (with a nylon insert) ($0.25)
4) A knob for the end of the rod. (you can make one
out of a t-nut & a piece of pine scrap) ($0.25)
5) A (jam) nut to hold the knob on (0.03)
6) A T-NUT
7) 3 washers (0.03 * 3 = 0.09)
Depending on the threads-per-inch of the rod you use, you get
1 turn 1/16 of an inch (1/4 turn is 1/64). But if you can find
32 threads per inch, that's better. it's 1/32 of an inch per turn.
Starting from the knob the assembly is:
knob | t-nut | pine 2x4 | washer | spring | washer | FENCE | washer |
LOCKNUT.
The key here is the 2x4 is clamped to some surface, the spring
is under compression - pressing the 2x4 & fence apart. This
takes up the play and slop. My fence is 3 pieces of 1x3 popular
glued into a 3x3 block about 2.5 foot long.
To position the fence, I do the following:
1) eye-ball it as close as you can then clamp it.
2) make a test cut.
3) measure how far off you are.
4) turn the threaded rod screw to adjust.
Depending upon problem B below, I additionally clamp the fence
My system has some basic problems listed below.
You might want to look at the Lee Valley, Incra and Jointech patents
complete with pictures and explinations! You can print them out too.
It's interesting to see just what it is that makes them work so well.
See http://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html
Click on Patent Number Search,
enter: 5,779,407 for Lee Valleys patent
enter: 5,716,045 for Incra {Taylor Design Group}
enter: 5,553,644 for Jointech's
a) I do not have the quick-range of motion that tools like Incra and
Jointech have. I am limited by my $0.25 T-NUT.
In jointechs case, they have a long lead screw with a 'quick-release'
nut that lets you quickly slide the fence a long distance. This
is very simular to the quick-release lever found on some of the
better wood-working vise and is sometimes called a 'half-nut'.
in incra's case, they have a toothed rack instead of a 'half-nut'.
This could be cloned by using two threaded rods that mesh into
each other.
This quick-slide thing - coupled with a peel-and-stick tape measure
is the key to their range of adjustablity. Replicating that
gets expensive, and/or more complicated then a $0.25 t-nut.
b) in incra & jointech's case, their lead screw assembly is firmly
attached at the ends and the slop is taken care of by their quick
clamp, and other parts.
In my case, I use a $0.99 spring. My range of motion is limited by
the spring. When the spring is highly compressed, the fence is rigid
when loose - it wiggles. I sometimes insert spacers between the
spring
and the fence/2x4 and retighten it. {spacers are a short peice of
wood with a U-shaped channel that sits over the top of the threaded
rod. You could also use a stack of washers, with a notch cut out}
c) as the distance between the 2x4 & fence extends, the fence tends to
wiggle/rack some. In my case, I don't often extend the screws very
long or use a 'spacer' [as in b]. If I do, I make a few reference
marks with a try-square first, and re-line it up after words. In
addition, in these cases, I also use additional clamps to hold the
fence it self.
Worth noting is Lee Valleys's patent, sheet 2 of 6, figure 2 shows
a side view of how to use a machinests caliper at one end of the
fence, and pin the other end. Sheet 3 of 6 figures 3 and 3A show
an over-head view.
The advantages I have over these systems are:
a) My entire fence cost (two thingies) less then $10 plus wood.
Their systems cost: $200 to $500.
b) if I need to cut a dado slot - like you find in a bookshelf
I can easily move my micro-adjustable fence anywhere
c) I made a 'single-thingie' with knob and used it to make
some very precision cuts on my CMS.
One of these days - I'm going to finish an html page and put it some
where so people can see some pictures of what I'm talking about.
-Duane.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:04 PM
To: Duane Ellis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
Quotes from here and there, but since what you quoted
is my words from a message responding to Don, I feel I can
comment that what you describe is not enough to meet the
parameters of his claim (note that in a latter message he
was thinking about parallism, not depth setting, but...)
If you are counting turns from a set position, then
with 1/32 thread you are setting in 1/32nds per turn. Half
turns are about 1/64ths. Quarter turns are about 1/128ths.
In order to set to an accuracy of 1/1000ths you must be able
to distinguish between 1/2540 and 1/2541. If you are only
able to distinguish between 1/2540 and 1/2542 you are only
accurate to 1/500ths. In other words, using 1/4 turns (I
consider 1/8 turns to be non-accurate) your accuracy is
about 1/8th of what Don's message implied was needed.
True, you have a continious adjustment. That does not,
however, indicate the accuracy you can achieve. Your system
does not have a way of indicating (such as a gage) the
amount of movement, so you can't back forward and back to
that small amount with surity that you have moved only
1/1000th.
This whole mess started when Don asked how one could
set to 1/1000's and I responded that that accuracy was not
necessary. Your micro-adjustment system sounds quite
practical.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
Paul Burke wrote:
>
> Duane; I'm very interested. Read your e-mail, clicked in IBM URL plugged
> in the numbers you gave and a "no match" for all three. Would you help a
> dummy out here; I want to see the picture.
>
> Regards, Paul Burke
See http://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html
Click on Patent Number Search,
enter: 5,779,407 for Lee Valleys patent
enter: 5,716,045 for Incra {Taylor Design Group}
enter: 5,553,644 for Jointech's
The first screen you see is a "key word search" screen, right
there should be 3 graphic buttons, with a caption: "Alternate searches"
1st is a circle with the numbers 123, that is by patent number.
2nd is a circle intersecting another cirle, that's boolean search
3rd is a picture of a microscope.
You want the number 123 button, this should bring you to a new screen
where you type in the patent numbers (WITH OUT THE COMMAS!)
That should do it.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 6:23 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
Bruce Gowens wrote: [slighly reordered]
> This whole mess started when Don asked how one could
> set to 1/1000's and I responded that that accuracy was not
> necessary.
Oh I know, I did not want to imply a 0.001 resolution, it kinda
is beyond my needs as a wood worker. What I wanted was an incra
fence but without spending more then $10.00
The subject of a micro-adjustable you guys where going on about
caught my eye and I thought i'd share my little thingie.
> I feel I can comment that what you describe is not enough
> to meet the parameters of his claim
True, I should have made it more clear what I was not trying to
quote you. I wanted to start a new message thread that explained
how my little thingie works. I should have made that more clear.
In woodworking, I think beyond a 1/32 is hard for most of us
common folk to do. However, 1/64 on a fixed machine should
be doable - if you are careful.
But, 1/128 that's really almost too much. I question how truely
usefull 1/128 (about 0.008 inches) of an inch is. Let alone a 0.001
resolution. {Granted, a dial caliper or a micromiter is going to
read in 0.001 graduations but.. I work in fractions instead, and
refer to a fraction-decimal chart too often.}
I don't have all of don's orginal mail [some times that delete button
gets worn out rather quickly]. But, using shim stock to offset
a fence is something I've seen done before, and i've done it.
{I think Norm even did it once} It's useful.
I don't know what other people use for fence stock, but mine is wood
(popular). As I tighten down the bolts & screws shim stock of any size
tends to compress into my wood fence. I don't know the compressability
of
popular wood, nor do I want to know. But i do know that it's a factor
you
must keep in the back of your mind when working at those dimensions.
> True, you have a continious adjustment. That does not,
> however, indicate the accuracy you can achieve. Your system
> does not have a way of indicating (such as a gage) the
> amount of movement,
What I use the thingie for is that final tweak. My problem is I have
a delta 10" bench top type table saw ($130) with the older crappy screw
clamp type fence. {It's not a lever action clamp like the new ones, or
big
guys have} It really sucks. It also flexes too! I could never get a
close
accurate cut. And if I did come close, It was impossible to make a 1/32
adjustment. It's far simpler to twist a knob then shimmy my fence
over 1/32 of an inch.
The thingie has made that last 1/4 to 1/32 of an inch final adjustment
that I need to make possible. With out it, I just could not do it. I was
a the limits of my tools.
-Duane.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:04 PM
To: Ralph Bowden; Duane Ellis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
Gee, do you suppose it's anything like poplar? Is popular as green as
poplar? ;-)
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Bowden [mailto:ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 5:55 AM
To: Duane Ellis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Micro Adjustable Fences (long)
Gary, popular is a type of tree, like oak, walnut etc. Long ago use
was for fence post up by the north pole :-) Ha. RB
Duane Ellis wrote:
>
> Gary Cavener wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure which is the most popular wood.
> [snip]
> > This is all so confusing.
>
> Sorry gary, At Home Depot they sell 3 types of hard wood.
> Red Oak (about $4.75bf), [sometype of] Maple (about $4.50bf),
> and "Popular" (about $2.60bf).
>
> that is what I refer to as popular. I have no idea just how good
> it is - but I can tell it's stronger then a pine 2x4 and *MUCH*
> cheaper then Oak or Maple.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> -Duane.
From: Michael Reggio [mreggio at aardvark.ucs.ou.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:01 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Micrometer
Does anyone have instructions on how to properly use a micrometer? I got
one for Christmas and have been using it for turning, but I really don't
know how to take accurate measurements with it. Thanks in advance for your
help.
Michael
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:14 PM
To: Michael Reggio
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: Micrometer
Michael Reggio wrote:
> Does anyone have instructions on how to properly use a
> micrometer?
Using and reading are two different skills. The proper way to use
the tool is one handed. The accepted way is to hook your pinkie
finger through the frame. The thumb and index fingers can twirl
the spindle nut down quickly. If your mike isn't fitted with a
ratchet release, taking readings can be a tad trickier.You should
have some feeler gauge stock of known thickness on-hand to check
your technique. Obviously, over tightening the spindle will give
you false readings. If you only use the mike a few times a month
and don't have the ratchet release feature, you need to warm-up
with the shim stock before the session. I know this sounds
rudimentary, but you will not be able to trust your results if
your technique is to blame. Not to mention that the part won't
fit.
Normally a micrometer is used for extreme precision work. Metal
working is frequently completed using vernier or dial calipers,
exclusively. These have an accuracy resolution of 0.001 (one
thousandth). The same part machined from metal, would naturally
cost more than one of wood. The close tolerances cannot be held
to woodworking as to metal working. Inter fitting metal parts are
not the least bit forgiving. Wooden items will swell and shrink
with seasonal humidity changes.
Therefore, micrometers are not usually associated with
woodworking, and less often with turning. Simple friction
calipers and spring bow calipers are the accepted norm. These can
easily be set either to a known thickness block, or with a rule.
the level of setting precision is dependent of what the
application of the caliper'd part. If you are turning and gauging
a tenon that will need to fit a pre bored hole, the utmost
precision is needed. Not necessarily for the body elements of,
say a gavel's head. Don't make it harder than it needs to be, the
matching beads on opposite sides of center on the gavel head only
need to be within 1/32, before the eye can see the difference.
While the important thing is to have a good time at your craft,
save the close tolerance work for only when necessary.
> I got one for Christmas and have been using it for turning, but
> I really don't
> know how to take accurate measurements with it. Thanks in
> advance for your
> help.
The majority of proficient turners caliper their work under power.
The sharp, accurately machined edges comprising the cylindrical
ends of the anvil and spindle will get caught and gouge the work.
A steel rule and outside calipers are most often used at the
lathe. First set the calipers as in Fig.1. Then they are applied
to the work. Care should be taken to orient them perpendicular to
the axis of the work. When the work has been reduced to the
diameter set with the calipers, it will snugly slide across the
cylinder, without forcing the tool. Another option is to use
solids to set the caliper. Now for The Catch , what will you use
for a standard. There are two approaches, use what you already
have on-hand, or buy standards. If you opt to use what is found
in the shop, you must both measure it and measure it properly.
You cannot expect 3/4" plywood to be 3/4" anymore, I have
carefully caliper'd MDF at 3/4", but MDF is not capable of being a
standard, it will shrink/swell. The standards you choose should
be something inert. Without getting flack about molecular
activity, I choose common materials like, Plexiglas, Corian,
Formica, aluminum extrusions, the walls of aluminum extrusions,
assorted metal shapes, tempered Masonite, mica, deep broached
sockets. The list goes on. Notice that I did not include twist
drills, these can/cannot be used for standards. The stamped size
is only measured across the edges of the flutes, the non-working
shanks are slightly smaller for clearance. Nearer to the far end
of the spectrum is the turner's guage set offered by Bridge City
Tool Work$. It is a tower of stacked, individual disks to set
one's calipers to.
[Image]
A simple piece of rigid plastic, with an appropriately sized slot
through to an edge, will work also. Those Formica samples in home
centers are one source of fodder. Make an oversized slot to gauge
the rough stage size, so you can work away relaxed, and pucker-up
only as you approach the money size. Pick a bright, solid color
for the final size, use something obviously different for the
No-Go sizes. Link the series with light string or twine.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: John [jrbsr at bellatlantic.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 6:47 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Milk paint
I'm am finishing a "country kitchen" type jelly cabinet and would like
to use milk paint as a finish. I have located a local supplier and
purchased the powder mix, now I'm getting nervous about the application.
Does anyone have any experience with milk paint?
TIA
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Milk paint
At 09:47 PM 12/6/98 -0500, John wrote:
>I'm am finishing a "country kitchen" type jelly cabinet and would like
>to use milk paint as a finish. I have located a local supplier and
>purchased the powder mix, now I'm getting nervous about the application.
>Does anyone have any experience with milk paint?
Well, none first hand, however there is a rather informative article in AW,
issue #44, written by Michael Dresdner, that addresses the issue.
Joe
I'm not cheap, but I'm on special this week
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 4:24 PM
To: John
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Milk paint
I only know of one experience with milk paint. That
was experienced by Donna Spring, Council Person for the City
of Berkeley, CA. My opinion of Ms Spring is that she is the
usual type fool Bezerkley elects--big on ideology and damn
weak on practically or function. So milk paint was some
kind of politically correct thing to paint her house. I had
the giggles for all of the six months she couldn't live in
her home for the spoiled milk spell. I think she finally
used a highly-polluting nasty-oil-company
hazardous-to-her-political-health product to seal in the
milk paint so she could move back into her house.
John wrote:
>
> I'm am finishing a "country kitchen" type jelly cabinet and would like
> to use milk paint as a finish. I have located a local supplier and
> purchased the powder mix, now I'm getting nervous about the application.
> Does anyone have any experience with milk paint?
>
> TIA
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 8:35 AM
To: jrbsr at bellatlantic.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Milk paint
I've used milk paint a few times. Its actually really great stuff, just
don't put it on something that you might want to strip later, as its
a pain to get off. Never had any problems with smell, etc., as Bruce
alluded to. That was probably a case of not using it properly or not
using a formula right, or something along that line.
I used brushes that were designed for oil finishes (mainly because that
is what I had available) and it worked just fine. I think that Jeff
Jewitt's site has some info on this and also his book. I don't have his
web site handy, will try to look it up or you can do a web search.
What other questions do you have about it?
Gary
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:42 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; jrbsr at bellatlantic.net
Subject: RE: Milk paint
Hello noname,
I've used milk paint on several occasions. I haven't ordered any from the
big mail order outfits, just picked up the small containers at craft shops,
wal-mat, etc.
I have been pleased with it, but do recognize that it is not at all like
latex paints. This paint actually goes deep into the wood. You can not
strip it off.
The paint dries rough. There are things you can do to make it smooth
though. Several coats are required to make an opaque coating, but it does
dry fast.
I would highly recommend the book "Classic Finishing Techniques" by Sam
Allen. The last chapter talks about Milk Paint and is very informative.
(the rest of the book is REAL good too)
This years Christmas presents (that I started yesterday...) will be small
(14" X 19") pine wall hung cabinets with a glazed (old wavy glass) door.
The inside and outside will be painted with milk paint, then coated with
boiled linseed oil to give the paint a deeper color. The paint by itself is
kinda bland and pale, but I like the colors myself. My son and I painted
his Pinewood Derby car last year, the clear costed it with laquer, followed
by wax. Had people with any taste been judges, it would have won best paint
job (IM(maybe not so)HO).
Easy clean up (when still wet), but hard on brushes. Use the foam brushes
instead of your good brushes. I've only used it on pine. One thing the
above book mentions is to dampen the wood prior to painting for more even
absorbsion. If you've ever done this, you know that by wetting the wood,
the loose fibers will stand up, then the surface will be really rough. So,
wet once, let dry, sand, now you're ready to dampen for painting. I've used
steel wool and abrasive pads (scothbrite/Norton type) for smoothing, but
burlap and elbow grease would work too.
I haven't noticed a sour milk smell, but it is certainly possible with this
type of paint. One box I made a few years ago, I painted the inside and did
not finish coat it. Anytime I open the box, I get no smell whatsoever.
The paint holds up great. I would highly recommend it for your cabinet.
And lastly, one more thought. The above book gives 6 (count 'em SIX)
methods to apply milk paint to acheive different results. (I paid $14.95
(US) for the book from the local bookstore when I bought mine earlier this
year).
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
>From: jrbsr at bellatlantic.net
>To: woodworking at theoak.com
>Subject: Milk paint
>Date: December 6, 1998 9:12PM
>I'm am finishing a "country kitchen" type jelly cabinet and would like
>to use milk paint as a finish. I have located a local supplier and
>purchased the powder mix, now I'm getting nervous about the application.
>Does anyone have any experience with milk paint?
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 2:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MillRight
>Does anyone have a mail address, web site or phone number for the company
>Positive Position, Inc that marketed the Mill Right.
All indications lead me to believe that this company has been wiped
from the face of the planet. They had a Web page once but it has been
abandoned. I did come across this though.
Mill Right Plunge Router Table
1052 Cornelius Ave.
Schenectady, NY 12309
518-346-5705
Email: poulin at ultranet.com
If they are still in business please follow up with some info.
Keith Bohn
From: Wayne Jones [Wayne.Jones at internetmci.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 10:19 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: MillRight
I talked with Mark Poulin this morning. 860 673-7837
The story goes like this...
Mark took an early out package from a large corporation 4 or 5 years ago.
He and his brother decided to start a business and invented the MillRight.
They sunk a lot of capital into it but didn't make much money.
They are now trying to sell the company and have several prospects.
If they sell, they will contact all customers with that information to
let them know who to call for parts and support. Until then, they are
providing
parts and technical support as usual.
He spent an hour on the phone with me and was very helpful in answering
my questions. He is sending a couple of small parts to me for free.
-----Original Message-----
From: Duke of URLs [mailto:b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MillRight
>Does anyone have a mail address, web site or phone number for the company
>Positive Position, Inc that marketed the Mill Right.
All indications lead me to believe that this company has been wiped
from the face of the planet. They had a Web page once but it has been
abandoned. I did come across this though.
Mill Right Plunge Router Table
1052 Cornelius Ave.
Schenectady, NY 12309
518-346-5705
Email: poulin at ultranet.com
If they are still in business please follow up with some info.
Keith Bohn
From: Yves Messier [mestech at istar.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 7:26 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Mirrored top coffee tables
Has anyone ever removed a broken mirror from those mirror top coffee tables?
I have one to fix.
Yves
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 4:31 PM
To: mestech at istar.ca; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Mirrored top coffee tables
Yes Yves, I have had to replace glass tops on coffee tables.
However, none were mirrors. It seems to me that there would
be no large difference.
On the ones that I did it was a simple matter of carefully
removing the broken glass, taking the dimensions and the
largest piece to a reputable glass shop, and having a
replacement cut and edge finished.
In one case the glass had beveled edges. That stuff is
expensive. I imagine mirrors are a bit expensive, also.
Is there something unusual about the one you have?
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
-----Original Message-----
From: Yves Messier <mestech at istar.ca>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 08:48 AM
Subject: Mirrored top coffee tables
>Has anyone ever removed a broken mirror from those mirror
top coffee tables?
>I have one to fix.
>
>Yves
>
>
From: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 8:34 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: mission finish
I would be interested if anyone knows the best finish for mission furniture.
What type of stain (dye) what color? and what sealer/finish.
Thanks
Don Bentz in Fresno
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:58 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: mission finish
The original method was to use fumes of ammonia to color the oak. Now there
are stains available that simulate the color of fumed oak. I don't know how
closely they match, I've never used them.
There is a stain called Old Growth Solutions Fumed Oak available from the
Woodworker's Supply, phone# 1.800.645.9292.
Rick McQuay
--
>I would be interested if anyone knows the best finish for mission
furniture.
>What type of stain (dye) what color? and what sealer/finish.
>
>Thanks
>Don Bentz in Fresno
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:37 AM
To: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: mission finish
Don:
Mission furniture that is built out of quarter sawn white oak was
originally fumed. It is a simple process of placing the piece in a tent
with ammonia (industrial grade). The acids in the wood react with a
ammonia fumes and the wood takes on patina. I have done this a number
of times and the results are better than any wipe on stain. Fine
woodworking has article on their web page describing the process.
There are two problems with this process. The first is obtaining the
industrial ammonia. That can be obtained from a office supply house
that services blue print machines. The second is that the fumes are
very strong and you will need a paint respirator with ammonia filters.
The normal filters on a paint respirator are "organic" for paint. You
can get these at a industrial hygiene supplier or most paint stores can
get them for you. You will also need to build a tent to put the piece
in.
This thread usually get some folks howling and growling about about
the safety issue over using ammonia. Frankly, I if you use a little
common sense, it is no more unsafe than shooting lacquer. It produces a
great finish, and IMHO is well worth the effort.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA
DBentz4078 at aol.com wrote:
>
> I would be interested if anyone knows the best finish for mission furniture.
> What type of stain (dye) what color? and what sealer/finish.
>
> Thanks
> Don Bentz in Fresno
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:48 AM
To: DBentz4078 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: mission finish
Well Color me confused, but the little reading I have done on so called
"Mission" style suggests that the whole concept utilised whatever timber
grew locally and in relative abundance to keep costs reasonable. So for
this little [*] duck the best color is "au natural".
Geoff.
*color deleted in keeping with politically correct "best practice".
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:12 AM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: mission finish
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:09:46 -0600 "Kurt A. Byfield"
<kbyfield at terracom.net> writes:
>
>About how long do you fume the items? All the materials I've read
>simply say to do it until it looks the way you want it, which does
>make>sense, but won't help me plan things out.
>
>Can you give a rough estimate on how long a typical Stickley color
>takes? is it days, hours, etc?
-------------
I guess it's time for me to provide a little benefit of recent
experience.
I used three scrap pieces of oak, one finished and scraped white oak, one
just rough cut undried white oak, and one piece of sanded live oak I got
from my son in Houston.I used common household ammonia, in a dish, with a
cloth draped up and over the sides to give good evaporation. The whole
lot was put in a clean, clear trash bag and tie-sealed, placed outside in
the sun to get good heat for evaporation. At the end of three days the
white oak was quite dark, especially non-dried one, On the finished oak,
a piece of the cloth had rested and that was markedly darker, where the
liquid itself touched the wood. End grain was darker, but not as much
variation as unsealed wood is stained with oil stain.
The curious thing was the live oak piece. It developed an odd green
patina-looking color, more pronounced in the sapwood portion, but not
very dark. For you folks that live where this grows and can get planks
of it, it seems worthwhile to try some small projects with it...stools,
perhaps small figures, as it can look quite antiquey, particularly where
the piece uses the sapwood toward the outer edge of the project. I
assume this is because of the tannin distribution in the wood.
Absolutely no problem working with the household ammonia outside, with no
mask. Just pour the ammonia into the dish last before closing the tent,
and stay to the side...that is with the wind, if any, blowing across the
top of the tent from your left or right.
Have not gotten around to slicing test pieces or sanding the rough cut
piece to see how deeply the stain goes, but will report when done.
I suggest that you try a few pieces keeping track of days and
temperatures to see which ones give you the hue you want, Kurt. To
answer your question, I think it will require a few days, using household
ammonia, to get the dark hue...but what is the standard for "mission"
furniture? And why copy it if you like another hue better?
I recall seeing an article in FW, as I recall, that gave instructions for
building a fuming tent would take a chair-size piece
Glen, in Minneapolis
___________________________________________________________________
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From: Kurt A. Byfield [kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:10 AM
To: Glen L Keener; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: mission finish
Glen L Keener wrote:
>
> I suggest that you try a few pieces keeping track of days and
> temperatures to see which ones give you the hue you want, Kurt. To
> answer your question, I think it will require a few days, using household
> ammonia, to get the dark hue...but what is the standard for "mission"
> furniture? And why copy it if you like another hue better?
>
> I recall seeing an article in FW, as I recall, that gave instructions for
> building a fuming tent would take a chair-size piece
Thanks Glen, this is exactly what I was looking for.
The only down side to this is that it's too cold to do this outside
right now, so I have to wait a few months. I don't think it would go
over well if I tried this in the basement :-)
Maybe I can build an indoor fuming room. With exhaust..and windows..and
lights...and an airlock....
Kurt, off to the drawing board!
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
Only in America do we use the word "politics" to describe the
process so well: "Poli" in latin meaning "many" and "tics"
meaning "blood-sucking creatures"
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 1:09 PM
To: Glen L Keener
Cc: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: mission finish
Thanks for the useful information. The "official" word
is 28 per cent ammonia solution, and I guess many on this
list have been calling that "industrial." I never
understood why household ammonia might not be used, it just
might take longer. The "clue" that lead to this process was
rafters in horse barns, and _that_ has to be weaker than
household ammonia.
It also seems to me that washing the wood with ammonia
(perhaps a weaker mixture with water) might work as
well--and maybe on woods other than oak (don't they all have
_some_ tannen?). It seems to me like cooking or film
developing: time, temperature, strength of ingredients. My
take on all this is that I have no idea what Mission/"fumed"
oak looks like. But I think I'll do a few experiments of my
own.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 9:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Mold on Oak
I pulled a piece of (southern) red oak off my drying stack the other day
because it had severe crook and was about to fall off the stack anyway. I
cut the 1" x 4" x 12' board into 4 pieces, then jointed and planed it. The
board came from the outside edge of the tree, so there is some (maybe 1/2 to
1/3) sap wood in each board.
Unfortunately (for me) I was not able to stack and sticker this wood last
November ('97) immediately after it was cut. It was dead stacked for two
months, and finally got stacked in January ('98). When I did stack it, I
sprayed it with a fungicide, but the damage (mold, fungus, whatever) was
already well established.
So, what I have now is very interesting. In the sap wood only, there is a
very green fungus/?/mold that is in streaks, along with black streaks. The
wood itself is not punky (does not feel soft), so I'm thinking this is only
a cosmetic thing. Is it only cosmetic, or will the "deterioration"
continue now that the board is around 12% to 15% moisture content?
Interestingly, the heartwood appears perfect! There is a very distinct line
between the whiter (or what used to be white) sap wood and the heartwood.
Thanks, Todd Burch.
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:19 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mold on Oak
Welcome to spalted Oak. Cherry will also spalt in the sapwood
providing a striking effect with the contrast. The spalting will stop
when the wood is dry (it will also start again if the wood get moist).
I would tend to use such boards more for the effect of the spalting
contrasting with the hartwood than for structure. Picture frames,
plates, the edge of a small table... You don't see much spalted Oak
so prize it more than hate it.
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:25 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mold on Oak
Todd: All molds, fungus etc... will live in a select range of
conditions. The moisture levels, light, temp. conditions etc.. have to
be correct for that type of organism to grow. Once the moisture, temp.
etc... is below a level that can not support the organism it dies or
goes dormate. If the conditions return it will the break dormacy or the
spawn will grow. Hope this helps - Ken
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 11:14 AM
To: RLA at the.usp.org
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mold on Oak
I have a bunch of spalted white oak (and spalted pecan), but this red oak
sapwood is more like green yuk (Okay, who remembers Mr. Yuk stickers?).
The other stuff (which I proudly call spalted, and covet (shame on me)) is
mostly the black streaks.
This green is most ugly, and looks quite alive (because it is SO
green/vibrant). Perhaps I'm dealing with more than one fungus (ok, have to
say it; there's a fungus among us), spalting and ..?
Todd.
From: R.J. Spomer [rjspomer at email.msn.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Molding cutter for TS and or RAS
I'm looking for a molding cutter for a TS and RAS. I know delta makes one
but do any of you folks have another source with possibly carbide knives.
Sears is not a choice. I'm making several tables for a Embassy Suites Hotel
and the edge band that is call out is 2" tall and 1/2" thick with 4 equal
beads aprox 7/16dia with 1/8" between. I don't own a molder but do have a
shaper but cutting this on a shaper would require raising the bit quite
high.
I'm ready give it to me.
Thanks RJ
The weather out side feels like I'm back home in Montana, but not quite -40
yet.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 3:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: More On Pin Routers
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
very wasteful. How true that is."
-Dan Quayle
How true Dan, how true.
I don't know why I missed this earlier but there is another pin router
set up available from Woodworker's Supply (1-800-645-9292) on page 123
of the August 1998 catalog #135.
This particular one uses your drill press chuck to hold the pin and
the router is inverted (router table style) and clamps to the drill
press' post after the table is swung aside.
Normally I'd suggest you click on the URL below for a link to the
mentioned supplier. I won't be able to do this until Woodworker's
Supply joins us in the 1990s.
Keith Bohn
From: Kurt A. Byfield [kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:21 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: More sounds
Chainsaw
http://www.wavplace2.com/hallo/csaw.wav
Kurt
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
Only in America do we use the word "politics" to describe the
process so well: "Poli" in latin meaning "many" and "tics"
meaning "blood-sucking creatures"
From: g43 [g43 at tc3net.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 8:41 AM
To: The Oak
Subject: Mortiser
Last week I asked for some advice about the Makita sharpener and received many replies, thanks to all that responded. My next question has to do with the Delta Mortiser, Model 14-650K. I compared it to the Multico PM12 and found them to be comparable (on paper) except in price. I would appreciate anyone's knowledge about these two machines.
Thanks,
Roger
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 6:58 AM
To: The Oak
Subject: Re: Mortiser
I believe Wood magazine did a review within the last couple issues on
these machines (and chisel/bit sets). If nobody pipes in I'll check
when I get home if you need the exact issue.
Jim
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Mortiser
Author: "g43" <g43 at tc3net.com> at -Internet
Date: 10/23/98 8:40 AM
Last week I asked for some advice about the Makita sharpener and received many
replies, thanks to all that responded. My next question has to do with the Delta
Mortiser, Model 14-650K. I compared it to the Multico PM12 and found them to be
comparable (on paper) except in price. I would appreciate anyone's knowledge
about these two machines.
Thanks,
Roger From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:32 AM
To: g43; The Oak
Subject: Re: Mortiser
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:52 AM
To: 'g43'; The Oak
Subject: RE: Mortiser
Roger:
I can't speak to the Delta, however I have the Multico. It is a excellent machine and easy to set up. Once set up does a great job. Fine woodworking did a test a year or so ago and as I remember the Multico and the Delta came out on top with the Multico rated slightly better. I have looked at the Delta and would say the fit and finish on the Multico is a little better. Could account for the difference in price difference.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA where it feels like winter came today
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:54 AM
To: g43; The Oak
Subject: Re: Mortiser
From: g43 <g43 at tc3net.com>
>Last week I asked for some advice about the Makita sharpener and
received many replies, thanks to all that responded. >My next question has
to do with the Delta Mortiser, Model 14-650K.
Made in Taiwan.
>I compared it to the Multico PM12 and found them to be comparable (on
paper) except in price.
Made in England.
>I would appreciate anyone's knowledge about these two machines.
Guess which one is the better piece of equipment ?????
John
From: David Cohen [imageinc1 at mindspring.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 9:54 AM
To: Daniel A. Segel; g43; The Oak
Subject: Re: Mortiser
From: jim catterson [termite at rocketmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 11:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mortiser
have a lot of time w/ the older delta mortiser [the one that runs at a
higher speed] and a multico pm 20. i have found, contrary to my
preconceptions, no appreciable difference between the two when it
comes to the quality of the mortice itself in any type of hardwood. i
mostly build stickley or other arts and crafts period furniture which
all involve alot of mortice and tenon work and have cut hundreds of
mortices w/ both machines. although the delta may be made in taiwan,
that fact has nothing to do w/ the quality of the cut. it may matter
in tablesaws and jointers but the english tools simply do not cut a
better square hole. i will wager that the lateral runout in the
carriage of either machine is w/in .002 of the other. besides, you
can put whatever chisels you want in either. the only real
consideration is whether you can afford the moving work clamp system
of the pm's.....
cheers
jim catterson
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: CDWeinke at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 2:57 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Mortising Machine
I'm starting to make a number of "Mission" style pieces, and want to get a
dedicated mortising machine.
Does anybody have an opinion on the difference between a bench top drill press
with a mortising attachment versus an actual mortiser, other than a big
difference in cost? They both turn a drill bit and plunge up and down, right?
Charlie
From: Randy Brewer [master at firstnethou.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 3:29 PM
To: CDWeinke at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mortising Machine
There is no doubt in my mind that a dedicated mortiser is much easier to
setup. If you have the money
you can't go wrong with the Delta or similar models. These machines are not
large and can be tucked
under the workbench when not in use.
Randy Brewer
Pasadena, Texas
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 3:35 PM
To: CDWeinke at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mortising Machine
Charlie,
I don't think there is any question about the superiority of a dedicated
morticing machine. Faster to set up, more accurate and etc. But, and
especially since you "starting" to make a number, it depends whether you
feel justified in jumping in with both feet and getting something good,
or you prefer to dangle your toes in the water first before you jump.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 5:49 PM
To: CDWeinke at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Mortising Machine
Charlie:
I have both. The dedicated unit that I have is far superior to the
drill press. It cuts cleaner, is far easier to set up and use, in
addition to being more precise. There is a significant difference in
the performance. Part of it is in the design and mechanical advantage
of the dedicated machine. A dedicated machine is designed for a
specific job. A low cost drill press is a compromise.
Ken Martin
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 5:04 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: MSC Catalog
Well, I finally got around to ordering the free MSC catalog. I checked
off the CD ROM option, but a week later a UPS truck came and delivered
the 4,500 page printed edition instead. I'm impressed! Obviously,
their target market is industrial firms. Does anyone have experience to
share, good or bad, on dealing with MSC as an individual?
Gerald
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 6:54 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: MSC Catalog
I was just there today. That is one of their field offices (Buffalo, NY) to
see if they could help me locate the parts I need to make a vice atachment for
a Mortise set-up I'm making for my drill press. They are an excellent company
to do business with and stand behind the products they sell. Also they offer
same day shipping. Look in the back inside cover of the "BOOK", catalogue
just doesn't cut it for that thing, and they have a listing of their MSC
Branches.
Good Wwking,
Chuck
From: Thomas Bunetta [ears at ewol.com]
Sent: Friday, January 01, 1999 4:10 AM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: MSC Catalog
They're a little "pricey", but deliver the next day, and have a HUGE
inventory (as you realize by now).
If you want it NOW, and don't mind the price, they're better than Grainger.
Tom
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Friday, January 01, 1999 8:30 AM
To: 'Gerald Mayer'; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: RE: MSC Catalog
Gerald,
I've purchased more than a few items from MSC and I would recommend
it. One poster commented that they were pricey but I personally don't
find that to be the case. I do quite a bit of shopping around before I
purchase and I think they are really competitive. They send out sales
catalogs *all the time* (you'll get flooded with them) but they have
some good deals, IMO. Most of my purchases have been dial indicators,
dial calipers, micrometers, steel stock, etc. as they lean toward metal
working more than woodworking (but they do carry some woodworking
things). I guess I'm basing my "price" comment on metal working items
more than woodworking.
Chuck
WoodChuck WoodWorks
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Friday, January 01, 1999 1:49 PM
To: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: MSC Catalog
I, as an individual, have found MSC to be helpful and
responsive, and their turn-around time is quite good.
10Q,
Moose
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 6:44 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: My experience with Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander (long)
I thought you might be interested in my experience in purchasing, using, and
modifying a Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander.
After doing some research, I decided that this machine was probably a
reasonable trade-off in terms of capability and price for me. I am a
high-end hobbyist, my biggest undertaking is my current project of making
some 50 running-feet of cabinets for my own kitchen: maple ply, maple raised
panels, cherry everything-else (face frame, rails, stiles, ...). I was
exhausted just thinking about the amount of hand-sanding that was going to
be required. And as we all know, a big project is the excuse for buying THE
BIG TOOLS!
Ordering and shipping were just fine, with the tool arriving at my local
trucking depot pretty much as-scheduled. I don't have a loading dock or
fork-lift, so they couldn't deliver to the house. I took my trailer,
schlepped it home, and wriggled it through two 36 inch doorways into my
shop.
After some time using it, I decided one day that I was going to sand some
rails for cabinet doors, both faces and edges. When it came time to do the
edges of these 27-inch-long pieces, I arrayed them on-edge on my table saw
top in groups of five, and clamped them with a standard wooden clamp. I
then ran the five together on-edge through the sander, flipped them and ran
the other edge through. Having completed all of them, I found that the
rails were now about 1/32 inch narrower in the middle than at the ends:
shaped a bit like an hour-glass! Not tremendously pleasing, I might add!
So I retested to make sure I hadn't done something incredibly stupid in
passing the work through the machine: I jointed and thickness-planed a left
over 6x6, and put it through the sander. Same result.
On the phone to Woodmaster. Clearly this was a known problem to them, as
the first question they asked was the relative heights of the infeed and
outfeed rollers to the sanding bed. (This machine has a conveyor belt that
passes over these two rollers and across the sanding bed to carry the work
through the sander. The sanding drum is suspended above the sanding bed.)
After some investigation, it turns out that in fact the rollers are both
higher than the bed, so the work bumps up and down as it leaves and enters
the rollers, leading to the hour-glass sanding pattern.
Two very helpful guys, Barry and Darren, explained how I could remove the
sanding bed and shim it to the right height using parts that they would send
to me. They faxed me the directions.
If one had all the parts and miscellaneous machine screws on-hand, one could
do the tear-down, shimming, and re-assembly in a day. But when has that
ever happened? Three part-days later, I'm back in business.
The sanding bed as-manufactured is a 1/8 inch (approx) metal plate,
supported by 3/4 inch square solid metal bars that run under the plate
parallel to the axis of the sanding drum. The factory-offered solution was
to add 1/8 inch flat metal bars to the top of each of these 3/4 inch bars
to raise the bed above the level of the rollers.
Before starting this, I noticed that with a reasonable amount of pressure,
one can flex the bed by ten thousandths of an inch. I decided that while I
had the beast dis-assembled, I would strengthen it. Instead of using the
1/8 bars, I bought some 1x2x1/8 steel channel, and put it over the 3/4 inch
bars, with the channel legs facing down. This gave the same 1/8 inch "lift"
to the bed, but the legs on the channel greatly increased the stiffness of
the whole assembly.
I test-assembled the sanding bed and checked to see if it was all in one
plane. Well, more or less, but there was a 0.010 inch sag in the center of
the bed. You will remember some conversations on this List about shim
stock? Well it turns out that my closest supplier of shim stock was the
beer-can garbage pail behind the local bar. When cut up, these cans yield
excellent shim material at about 0.007 inch thickness, sort of exactly what
I needed!
Now, I think that one could sand an elephant on this machine without much
deflection due to sanding pressure! And the work only smells slightly of
stale beer.
When I re-tested using the 6x6, it's accurate to within a couple of
thousandths.
Barry promised to send me some sandpaper to compensate me for finishing the
manufacturing of their machine! They have been quite helpful through the
whole process.
If any others of you use this machine and want more details, e-mail me.
Bob Chapman
From: JMKather at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 8:55 PM
To: bob_chapman at viconet.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: My experience with Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander (long)
Thanks for relating your experience. You know, Woodmaster advertises their
alleged manufacturing and product excellence. I wonder why they would
purposely manufacture a defective machine?
Makes me think a bit harder about ordering one of their planer molder
machines. However, they do claim to allow you to use it for 30 days free -
send it back if not satisfied. Why didn't you elect to send it back and have
Woodmaster fix their own problem?
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 6:06 AM
To: Bob Chapman
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: My experience with Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander (long)
Bob Chapman wrote:
>
> I thought you might be interested in my experience in purchasing, using, and
> modifying a Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander.
>
> After doing some research, I decided that this machine was probably
My first planner was either the 12" RBI or Woodmaster, they looked so
much alike I couldn't tell one from the other. I often suspected they
were the same machine with different labels.
Your description of it's faults were the same problem with the planer.
The supporting steel for the bed was not adequate enough to resist the
downward pressure of the cutters and feed rollers and flexed as did
yours. I thought several times of doing something similar to what you
did. Had I, it would have made an excellent low cost efficient perfectly
good staionary planer.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:50 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: My experience with Woodmaster 26 inch drum sander (long)
At 11:54 PM 12/20/98 -0500, JMKather at aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>Makes me think a bit harder about ordering one of their planer molder
>machines. However, they do claim to allow you to use it for 30 days free -
>send it back if not satisfied. Why didn't you elect to send it back and have
>Woodmaster fix their own problem?
Because, he wanted the DWC so bad he could taste it! Why, that Bob guy's
been doing crazy stuff like that for years. Shucks, even when the folks
down to the Tool 'n Drool see him drive up they say, "Oh, heck. It's
glory-hound-Bob! Quick! Everyone act like nothing in the store is broke."
Joe
If I had some ham I'd have ham and eggs, if I had the eggs
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Joe Johns (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Nailing Cedar Siding: incredible advice, or not?
At 05:05 PM 9/30/98 -0500, Richard Bienvenu wrote:
>A friend is building (or, having built) a Victorian-style house (a tower, a
>porch, fishscale siding in parts). The contractor is about to nail up the
>1x6 beveled cedar siding. One of the finish carpenters (who has been
>complaining about the shoddy work of the framing carpenters) asked: "You're
>going to hide the nails, aren't you? They'll look like hell."
>
>(Nails in question are ring-shanked ss siding nails with rather small,
>cross-hatched heads.)
>
>"Well, how can I do that?"
>
>"Just nail the _top_ edge of each board. That way the nail heads will be
>hidden by the over-lapping upper clapboard and the paint will glue the
>bottom of the boards down."
This question isn't as cut-n-dried as your finish carpenter suggests.
Siding is supposed to be bottom nailed...well, the all-wood variety that
is. Some of the man-made stuff like Hardi-Plank (a concrete/fiber
composite), Masonite, etc. is meant to be top nailed - dependent upon the
state of the exteriors wall, i.e., subsheathed, uniform, etc. Widths of
these types of materials are, of course, are another concern. For
instance, Hardi-Panel. It's made of the same material as Hardi-Plank but
comes in 4' x 8' and 9' sections. This is technically siding but would you
only top nail?
Wood is no different but this is why the old-timers kept the widths or
exposure to a minimum, typically 6" or less.
The species being used also plays an important role but the biggest
consideration is how it's cut.
Clapboards can be made in any number of ways; rift sawn, beveled,
straight-rip (like a common 1x), etc. Rift sawn is your premium clapboard
because the way it is cut from the log allows the grain of each clapboard
to be quartersawn. How they do this is mount a log in a lathe-like
contraption and make a cut radially throughout the log's length then rotate
the log and make another slice. Ah, the mind boggles at the shear genius
of this method! This method also gives you a beveled product. The other
type of "beveled" siding is cut by shifting the placement of the material
and cutting device. The benefit of beveled siding allows you to start your
first course without a 'starter' course.
There's only one type of wooden siding (that I'm aware of) that doesn't
require bottom nailing and that is the T&G variety. Since siding has been
bottom nailed ever since we landed in this country and began building
houses, I can't see stopping the tradition now. Of course, the manner in
which the nail is set has an awful lot to do with it too.
Your friend's contractor is correct...wind is one major factor another is
bugs (do you ever ponder where houseflies go in the winter? Hint ...it
ain't the Bahamas).
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com on behalf of David Chekal [nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:47 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: Glen L Keener
Subject: Naval Time (was: Looking for seachest plans)
On the subject woodworking projects for saliors. I was wondering
if anyone knows of a source for a clock movement (the guts parts)
for building a clock the chimes in ship time (1 bell at midnight,
2 bells at 12:30am, etc I think)? I've seen a number of sources
for normal chiming clock movements (Woodcraft etal) but none
has shown Naval chiming movements.
My Father-in-law is an ex-navy capatin and as a ships wheel that
he wants to put a clock in but only if he can get it to chime in
ships time.
Thanks for any help
--
David Chekal
nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com
Lost in the corporate bureaucracy
From: Marc & Linda Tovar [mltovar at ntr.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:05 PM
To: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Naval Time (was: Looking for seachest plans)
Hi David
Try the following, there are numerous Horological Suppliers.
http://www.horology.com/ho-comer.html
Marc Tovar
Layton,UT
David Chekal wrote:
> On the subject woodworking projects for saliors. I was wondering
> if anyone knows of a source for a clock movement (the guts parts)
> for building a clock the chimes in ship time (1 bell at midnight,
> 2 bells at 12:30am, etc I think)? I've seen a number of sources
From: Gary C. Ruisinger [gruising at sound.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 1:25 AM
To: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Naval Time (was: Looking for seachest plans)
Hi David,
S. LaRose has what you are looking for. They have a web site at
www.slarose.com and their phone number is 910-621-1936. Part # 084083 at a
cost of $109.50 each. It is made by Hermle (132-071). That price does not
include the dial but they can furnish one at a small cost. Gary
From: Paul Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:22 AM
To: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Naval Time (was: Looking for seachest plans)
Hi Dave,
You might try looking for a Howard Miller Clock supplier or a website
for them. They make clocks that sound "eight bells and all is well".
Regards,
USN, Ret.
--
Paul W. Abelquist
78 Rosewood Road
Rocky Point, NY 11778
Tel.: 516. 821. 5574
Fax: 516. 821. 3392
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:19 PM
To: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: Glen L Keener
Subject: Re: Naval Time (was: Looking for seachest plans)
Ahoy David,
I have been searching for a clock movement which chimes the
8 bell watches. Particularly one i can afford to buy
without a mortgage on it. So far everything I have found is
far more expensive than I want.
Chelsea is the premier manufacturer of ships clocks in North
America. These clocks can be found on many web sites. They
have several models which chime the 8 bell watches.
Here are some additional sites that also list ships clocks
which chime the 8 bell watches.
http://www.compass-rose.com
http://www.islandtradingcompany.com
http://www.cargohold.com
http://www.shipsstore.com
http://www.progressive-marine.com
http://www.robertwhite.com
This web page from the British Horological Society shows
how the 8 bell watches are struck.
www.bhi.co.uk/hints/ships.htm
10Q,
Moose
From: Ralph Bowden, SSI Education [ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:52 AM
To: the Oak
Subject: Neat Board Foot Chart
http://www.liberon.com/BoardMeasure.pdf
From: M. J Allan [m. at attcanada.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 8:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Need guitar stand plans
Greetings all,
I'm looking for plans to build a stand for my son's guitar (for the instrument, not for the music). Have any of you come across anything?
Thanks in advance,
Mike Allan
Whitby, Ontario
m. at attcanada.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need guitar stand plans
>I'm looking for plans to build a stand for my son's guitar
>(for the instrument, not for the music). Have any of you
>come across anything?
I'd start with a cheap metal stand to establish the dimensions and
then try to do something like the ones shown at this link.
http://www.aldenlee.com/inststands.html
Keith Bohn
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Need Help Removing an Inlay (long)
Morning Folks,
I've been repairing an old cedar chest (blanket style) for some time now,
and after 2 1/2 years, I really need to finish it up...
When I got the chest, it was handed to me in multiple pieces. It had been
used as a trampoline by some kids and the top was broken to pieces. The
entire chest was made from solid aromatic cedar using dowels and hide glue
for the edge-to-edge joinery, and "double rabbets", brads and triangular
blocks for the corner joints. It had a solid bottom, set into a rabbet at
the bottom. At one point the bottom got wet, and simply swelled up and
pushed the sides apart. By the time I got it, if I stooped over to pick up
the lid-less chest by grabbing the top board on each side and lifting, I
could lift the chest several inches before the bottom came off the ground,
kind of like an accordian. In summary, it was in very bad shape.
But, the ladies' dad made it for her and this is all she has from him, so it
has a lot of sentimental value (or mental value as I sometimes call it) and
I agreed to fix it. She gave me leeway to redesign as needed for
durability. (So I have employed finger joints at each corner, a floating
cedar plywood bottom set into a groove all around and a breadboard top
instead of a the original flat panel top)
Anyway, except for the front panel, which I left intact, after completing
the dissassembly that original poor construction, time, humidity and kids
helped along, I broke every edge joint, removed every dowel, cut off every
rabbet and started over with the stack of boards that used to be a blanket
chest. When all the panels had been rebuilt, I finger jointed the ends and
glued the case back up (titebond).
(BTW, I learned some very interesting points about assembly techniques
during disassembly. 1) The maker put a concave edge on every edge joint.
However, it was excessive, I think, because every joint failed. Where the
glue was still holding was at the ends of the boards, never in the middle.
2) Based on the amount of glue that was left in the joints, very little,
the maker used too tight of a clamping pressure during glue up. And, it
must have been very high pressure, as each board had the concave edges. 3)
The dowels, for the most part, has 0 glue on them. They were full round
(had no flutes, reliefs or spiral to them, so when inserted, the glue was
actually removed! They all came out quite easily. 4) Solid wood expands
when gotten wet, a lot, as learned from the case bottom as it pushed away
the front and back panels away from the sides 5) The top had no support, ie
battens underneath, etc., making it prone to breakage or warping, which it
did very well.)
Now, back to the subject: Glue up.
Here (glue up) is where the trouble started. Remember the front panel? I
left it intact because it is covered with a thick inlay, and I didn't want
to mess with it. The front panel is about 39" wide and 14" tall. The inlay
is centered and is 8" tall and 28" wide. The inlay itself is about 1/8"
thick and is walnut and maple, the walnut being the majority of the inlay,
and three pieces of maple arranged inside of that. I suspect that the maple
is the same thickness as the walnut, and the walnut has three "through"
holes in it ( as opposed to the maple being an inlay into the walnut inlay).
When glueing the case back up, I heard a "POP". What happened was that two
of the boards of the front panel broke their joint. These two boards run
right underneath the inlay. Also, a small top corner of the inlay broke
loose, and it now sticking proud of the surface and it is quite loose. So,
the task I ignored and shunned away from now has to be done, and in the most
difficult of circumstances.
I have repaired the joint between the two boards. To do this, I layed the
case on its front face so I could easily get to the back of the boards who
were no longer glued. Then, I put a 1/4" straight bit in my router, mounted
my adjustable fence to my rounter, and then set the fence so that the center
of the 1/4" bit fell at the failed joint. I then routed the joint out,
going down about 3/8" of an inch, as wide across the case as I could because
the router baseplate caused me to stop short at each side. Then, after
removing all the dust/chips, I glued in a cedar spline. This worked quite
nicely.
So now, I do not know how to remove the inlay so I can clean out the debris
that is causing it to stand proud and then re-glue it. It is held in with
hide glue and a couple of brads, randomly placed. The glue at the edges of
the inlay is quite crystalized. Only a small section of the inlay is loose
- a section barely large enough to pry it up so that I can see underneath
it, and if pried much more, I fear the wood would split. There are also
3-4 small brads through the inlay, which are a result of a previous repair
action from an unthinking repair person.
As I have never worked with hide glue, I resort to my library. After
reading a few chapters on how to heat it, thin it, mix it, apply it, disolve
it, I cannot find any information on how to remove it, based on the
situation I have. I've read that hide glue is soluable in hot water,
crystalizes with denatured alcohol and can be reactivated with heat.
My first thought was to, very very slowly, put hot water around the inlay.
My theory is that the glue would (eventually) give and allow me to get
further and further underneath the inlay. I don't think this is practical
though, because once I get the very edge of the inlay free, I don't see how
I can (essentially) turn the corner to get water underneath it without
marring and ruining the edge of the surrounding solid wood.
My next thought was to use denatured alcohol to crystalize the glue, but
again the same problem, getting underneath the inlay which, for the majory
of the surface area (say, 95%), is still intact.
My third thought was to use a household iron (I do not have a veneer iron)
to heat the glue through the wood. This would either have the effect of
loosening the whole piece for removal, or remelting the glue so that the
inlay could be pressed down and reattached. In the latter case, I would be
crossing my fingers that the debris under the existing loose piece is merely
hide glue chunks and they would melt and even themselves out. But, the
1/8" thickness of the inlay deters me from trying this.
So, my long winded delimma. Help? Suggestions? Please!
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:06 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need Help Removing an Inlay (long)
Hi Todd,
I had a quite similar dilemma. My solution was to use two
part, long setting time, epoxy. I lifted the loose edge of
the inlay, with an Xacto #5 blade, just enough to insert a
fine gage hypodermic needle under it. It was a struggle
getting the epoxy into the syringe, and to push a few small
beads of glue through it. I made sure that there was not
enough epoxy under the inlay to squeeze out when I applied
pressure to it. I then placed a piece of wax paper over the
inlay and placed a six inch chunk of railroad main line rail
on it for an overnight rest. The inlay has not moved out of
place in fifteen years.
If anyone is wondering why I keep these syringes on hand, it
is not for my drug habit. My choice of drug comes in 12
ounce long neck brown bottles and is derived by fermenting
barley, hops, malt, and yeast.
10Q,
Moose
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:39 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need Help Removing an Inlay (long)
Well, figured I'd close this one out. (First post, last month this time,
long discourse on how I could safely (non-destructively) remove an inlay.
No real answers, but we did learn that Moose likes long necks. DUH!)
I finally posed this question to my woodworking club last month. And, of
all people, a luthier(sp?) (maker of stringed instruments (actually, he's
really a human being, just makes instruments once in a while)) gave me
instructions for how to remove the thick inlay without damaging anything.
So, for the record, here's (roughly) how he told me to do it and (actually)
how I did it.
He told me to wet a towel, but not one of the ones that hangs in the
bathroom that I'm not allowed to wipe my hands on. (go figure.. - what's
the point - why not just put a picture of a nice towel up - then I won't
forget and use it by mistake) Good thing I used an old towel, because it
was pretty much trashed when I was finished. Don't get it dripping wet, but
good and wet. I interpretted this as soak it under the kitchen faucet,
squeeze it to the point that I can make it through the house without it
dripping on anything, but if it drips going through the garage that's OK.
(Get the picture?)
Also, get a sheet of tin foil (can you even buy this anymore? I used
aluminum) about the size of the inlay or a little bigger. You can use a
smaller piece, but you gotta keep movin' it if you do.
And, get your garage iron (as in "iron and ironing board" iron), or sneak
the good one outside (like I did). Turn it on high, but turn the steamer
off, if so equipped.
Put the wet terry towel over the inlay (I folded mine, flat and smooth,
since it was bigger than needed), and foil on top of that (shiny side down
worked for me) and start ironing, like Clint Eastwood might say, "real slow
like." (Did I say remove the finish first? Do that)
After about 10-15 minutes, with steam flowing out from the bottom, water
popping, cracking noises, etc., check your progress. I had one piece just
about curl up and out on it's own. The towel gets REAL hot, so be fast
looking underneath. When a piece of inlay did start coming up, I would
concentrate on the section that was still holding. Also, I would lift the
sections that were loose, then work underneath them with a sharp (bevel
edge) putty knife. After about 45 minutes, the inlay was completely out.
When lifting it out, or maybe I should say when attempting to lift it out,
and it was still glued in areas, I did not realize that I was steam bending
the wood (inlay). I set the removed inlay pieces off to the side. When
finally done and all the residual hide glue was scraped out, I picked up a
piece of the inlay, which was now cool, and realized that I now had
far-from-flat inlay pieces. The moral to this is clamp or weight the pieces
of inlay down as you remove then, or you'll have to get the iron back out,
as I will have to do before they are reglued back in place.
Oh yes. One of the inlay pieces had been repaired before, with what looked
like yellow PVA glue. It was the first one to come up!!
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: moose at northrim.net
To: Todd Burch; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need Help Removing an Inlay (long)
Date: November 11, 1998 10:27PM
Hi Todd,
I had a quite similar dilemma. My solution was to use two
part, long setting time, epoxy. I lifted the loose edge of
the inlay, with an Xacto #5 blade, just enough to insert a
fine gage hypodermic needle under it. It was a struggle
getting the epoxy into the syringe, and to push a few small
beads of glue through it. I made sure that there was not
enough epoxy under the inlay to squeeze out when I applied
pressure to it. I then placed a piece of wax paper over the
inlay and placed a six inch chunk of railroad main line rail
on it for an overnight rest. The inlay has not moved out of
place in fifteen years.
If anyone is wondering why I keep these syringes on hand, it
is not for my drug habit. My choice of drug comes in 12
ounce long neck brown bottles and is derived by fermenting
barley, hops, malt, and yeast.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:59 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Need help removing burn in tabletop
I have a 45" round antique table top that was burned with a cigarette. The
burn area is an irregular oval, about 5/8" long, 3/8"wide. I've completely
removed the old finish on the entire top and need to know how best to remove
the blackened outline of the burn. Could I use a sanding disc on a Dremel?
Also, what should I use to fill the hole? I'll be staining the top to match
the heavy fluted pedestal base. This is solid wood, probably poplar, made
from three pieces of wood.
TIA. Rosie
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:39 PM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Rosiedoe at aol.com wrote:
>
> I have a 45" round antique table top that was burned with a cigarette. The
> burn area is an irregular oval, about 5/8" long, 3/8"wide. I've completely
> removed the old finish on the entire top and need to know how best to remove
> the blackened outline of the burn. Could I use a sanding disc on a Dremel?
> Also, what should I use to fill the hole? I'll be staining the top to match
> the heavy fluted pedestal base. This is solid wood, probably poplar, made
> from three pieces of wood.
>
> TIA. Rosie
Rosie,
You did well to recognize that sanding will create a hole. You'd be
amazed how many to do not realize that.
Actually you could use a chisel to create the hole since you will have
to fill it anyhow and it will be a whole lot faster and the edges wont
have the tendancy to taper in and out.
If it's a little used table, or an out of the way spot, spackling paste
would work. If it will receive some use, then you'll need something
harder and durable. There are some wood patching wood fillers (Elmers)
that are already Tan in color. Durhams is another brand. Durhams claims
it can be stained, but I've never know anyone that could and have it
look like anything. Most Hardware or Paint stores will have a variety of
patching wood fillers. All will work. You could even fill the depression
with an epoxy.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 11:42 PM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Howdy Rosie
Well, since you've already shot any antique value your best bet is to
probably sand the whole top down until you have removed the burn mark.
Any attention paid to removing stock just in the area of the burn mark is
going to leave a depression in the surface of the table so I'd be more
inclined to losing a bit of stock from the whole surface of the table rather
then having it come out with dip in it.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:04 AM
To: 'The Oak List'; Rosiedoe at aol.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
HI Again Rosie
As you may have noticed I'm passing this response on to the list as well as
sending it to you directly. I hope you don't mind, but it is a subject that
comes up once and awhile and is something I think bares repeating to the
group, and for the new woodworkers in the group.
I hope you didn't misunderstand, that wasn't meant as a knock on what you
have done. It's just a statement of fact. Today's antique market puts a huge
premium on patina. Even the dirt and grime of the ages adds value to an
antique.
Removing the old finish and hence, the old patina, can take away as much as
80% of the value of the piece as an antique. It probably removed more value
then just leaving the burn in did. On the odd occasion I've been asked to
redo some old furniture for family and friends, the first thing I do is make
sure they know that what I will be doing is refinishing, and not restoring.
I urge them, if they feel that there is any antique value in the piece, that
they have it appraised and restored or left alone rather then refinished, if
there is a substantial antique value in the piece or the potential for it.
Restoration is a much more specialized art then just refinishing. It
requires a minimalist approach using the correct finishes and techniques
appropriate for the era the antique was originally made.
The whole issue is really a matter (in most cases) of personal preference.
If you have an old piece of furniture that you wish to use in a functional
manner and antique value doesn't enter into you own assessment of the piece,
then, by all means refinish. But, it is best to make that an informed
opinion by having a suspected piece appraised before you do anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com <Rosiedoe at aol.com>
To: mjag at tiac.net <mjag at tiac.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
>Mike,
>
>Why do you say I've already shot the antique value?
>
>Rosie
>
Some of my thoughts on Antiques, hope it helps
Mike
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:28 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Rosiedoe at aol.com
Subject: RE: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Rosie, without knowing how deep the burn is, but assuming it would be a
typical surface-only burn, what about trying this method.
Wood swells when wet right? Wood REALLY swells when steamed. Put a WET rag
over the burn, then put a household iron on it on high, just the tip. That
should cause the steam to be forced into the wood, subsequently causing that
area to swell. Then, let it dry. When dry, that area should stand proud of
the surrounding area. Then, sand flush, and the burn mark should go bye
bye.
I've removed several scratches this way, and a few dents too.
Please let us know whichever method you use and what you learned and how it
worked.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:57 AM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Rosie.
OK the damage is done. Now you must try to recover the finish as near to
the original as you can.
It is very difficult to advise without seeing the condition of the table now
but I will try. If you have any further questions come back to me by
private E mail and I will be happy to guide you as best I can.
First the burn. By gluing a patch of medium/fine sand paper on the end of a
piece of 1/4inch dowel or pencil by gentle stroking most of the charred
section can be removed without effecting the good surrounding area.
A drop of oxalic acid will lighten the burn further. Once dry the hole can
be filled and levelled with some shellac stick or some sealing wax of a
close match to the colour of the wood. This is probably obtainable from
Home depot or the like.
The trick then is to refinish the top with as close a match to the original.
This could be shellac/French polish, cellulose, varnish. Only you can
determine this.
Hope this helps.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:27 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com; Rosiedoe at aol.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Howdy Todd
I kind of don't want to rain on your parade but........
The method will work fine for dings in the wood if the wood fibers are not
broken and only depressed. The moisture will swell the compressed fibers and
when they dry the will more or less be back to where they should be. It
works some what less well on dings with broken fibers, but well enough to
hide small accidents.
However, should you remove a quantify of wood and wet it, it MAY raise to
the level of the surrounding surface, maybe above it depending on how much
moisture is used. When the wood returns to it's normal moisture content
however, it will shrink back to what it was. If, in the meantime you have
done any sanding you will be in far worse shape then you were to start with.
There is no free lunch! Either the wood is there to work with or it isn't
-----Original Message-----
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com <tburch at cdbsoftware.com>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>; Rosiedoe at aol.com
<Rosiedoe at aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Rosie, without knowing how deep the burn is, but assuming it would be a
typical surface-only burn, what about trying this method.
Wood swells when wet right? Wood REALLY swells when steamed. Put a WET rag
over the burn, then put a household iron on it on high, just the tip. That
should cause the steam to be forced into the wood, subsequently causing that
area to swell. Then, let it dry. When dry, that area should stand proud of
the surrounding area. Then, sand flush, and the burn mark should go bye
bye.
I've removed several scratches this way, and a few dents too.
Please let us know whichever method you use and what you learned and how it
worked.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
A thought
From: Gardner [marchave at netins.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
A slight variation on this is that I put a piece of tin foil between the wet rag
and the iron. It was a tip given to me by an "ol' timer" and I never really
questioned it 'til now.
I wonder what the tin foil adds? Perhaps it prevents the water from evaporation
any place but the wood surface. I know about 6 months ago, I left the iron on
the spot for what I later figured must have been a half hour...... diaper change
on a 3 yr old, then a bath for her... what a mess. Anyway, when I came back the
wood was GOOD and swelled but there were no burn/singe marks.
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:26 AM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Rosiedoe at aol.com wrote:
> Okay, Big Al - I'll bite. What is a "Dutchman" patch??
Traditionally, a cosmetic "Dutchman" is a inlaid patch piece, aligned with the
grain, so as to visually blend in.
In your cigarette problem, the solution would be to use a piece of veneer. the
problem comes in making it "look like it done grow`d there". There is a tool to
do this.
Woodcraft Supply sold a tool called a veneer punch. It came in 2-3 sizes. It
is a sharp edged, hollow, punch with a soft irregular shape, like that of a
fried egg. The principal is that the irregular shape gets lost in the field.
The same punch is used on the damage site and on the veneer.
There is also a set of router accessories to do the same. It is a 1/8" spiral
bit, a router template collar, and an offsetting ring. Full instructions are
enclosed with it.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:35 PM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net
Cc: Rosiedoe at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need help removing burn in tabletop
Roger,
I too some years ago thought the Veneer Punch was the answer to some
veneer problems which I occassionally came up against. Sorry to inform
you that it is not! The Veneer Punch is designed to be used when the
"fault" veneer is not a part of the substrate. Then...the veneer can be
turned over on it's face and be "punched" from the backsite.
Then...another piece of "good" veneer is taken and working from the good
face side, another Punch is taken. When the fault veneer is laid down,
face up, the "Good Punched" piece can be inserted and nearly be
invisible. Otherwise, if worked only from the face, an open line will
show completlely around the odd shaped punched veneer.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:48 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Need ideas on what to do with blades
I have a few paper cutter blades, 25" long, 4" tall, 3/8" thick, heavy, and
sharp. It seems a shame to have them and not use them for something. The
only thing I've thought of so far is a miter trimmer. I think it would make
a dandy miter trimmer. But what else? What other great purpose could these
blades serve?
(BTW, they have been sharpened enough times that they are too short for
using in a paper cutter any longer. Rules out any thoughts in that
direction. <g>)
Rick McQuay
--
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need ideas on what to do with blades
In a commercial shop I once worked in we had a guillotine for end
cutting veneer bundles. Similar (same) set up as the paper cutter.
Always made my skin crawl to operate this "machine".
Other than that, maybe grind off the sharp edge and make a straight
edge? Seems a waste though.
Keith Bohn
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Need ideas on what to do with blades
Rick,
I'll bet you could use it to make a dandy machete. Just make a two piece
handle for one end out of your favorite wood and rivet it to the blade.
Sharpen appropriately and you are ready for your next journey into the
deepest jungles or your backyard.
I could use one on my backyard and have saved a discarded set of paper
cutter blades from work just for that purpose. They work great for
blackberry bushes that are overgrown. One of those projects further down on
the list.
Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 1998 10:52 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Need ideas on what to do with blades
You know I was looking through one of the FW Techniques books and found an
article on the Super Surfacer. If you haven't seen one, they use a blade
about 1/2 the size of the one I have to plane wood. The wood moves under the
blade, essentially as if a hand plane were stationary and the board moved
instead.
Rick McQuay
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 4:05 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Need ideas on what to do with blades
>You know I was looking through one of the FW Techniques books and found an
>article on the Super Surfacer. If you haven't seen one, they use a blade
>about 1/2 the size of the one I have to plane wood. The wood moves under the
>blade, essentially as if a hand plane were stationary and the board moved
>instead.
>Rick McQuay
That was what seemed like a very short lived machine being offered by
Hitachi. This was way back in the old days (10 - 15 years ago?) when
there were only a few good tool companies to choose from and Hitachi
had what looked like one of the best lines.
I read in another article where someone had this machine set up to cut
their own veneers. Was interesting that the waste in this instance
was the final product.
I seem to remember the machine being quite pricey.
Keith Bohn
From: Matt Mullins [strings1 at concentric.net]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 7:58 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: need part's number list delta
Hi, can any of you help me out here?
I need a replacement part for my 12 inch delta plainer
The rubber has come off in a spot on my front rooler, which pulls the bord
in and when I called to ask for help on getting the part, the guy told me
that, to be safe, he wanted to send me a part's list, however, my fax
capability is rusty, or rather, I am rusty on how to use it, so I'm sunk. I
can't find a part's list which came with the machine and am totally blind,
so can't just whip over to the place in a car, without shelling out to much
money to a taxy.
Here's the info I have, I have one other number, but doubt it is important.
It is a 12 inch delta plainer,
model number, 22-560
and, the problem, again, is that the rubber has come off in a spot on the
front roller, which is at right at the front, and which pulls the wood in
and helps to feed it under the blades and out to the back roller.
If delta has a web sight with this info listed, please let me know that as
well.
I am currently nomail, so please send responses directly to me.
Thank you!
Matt
From: Glenn Chapman [gchapman at mps.org]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 11:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: New air cleaner no raves.
I finally got my aircleaner up and running, with filters it was about $65.
Anyway, SWMBO comes down for the unvailing. I plug it in, I turn it on and
it hums gently and starts recycling air. She was not impressed, her eyes
said all that plywood and running around for a small coffin that humms.
Glenn
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:23 AM
To: Glenn Chapman
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: New air cleaner no raves.
Glenn-
Is this a air cleaner you built? If so where did you get your
plans ? Any pictures available ? I have been trying to come up with a suitable
design, I have a old furnace motor that I plan on using for the air source.
Thanks for any input.
Dave Tinley
Where I spent too much money at the woodworkers show. :>(
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: New air cleaner no raves.
At 09:22 AM 11/2/98 -0600, Dave Tinley wrote:
>Glenn-
> Is this a air cleaner you built? If so where did you get
your
>plans ? Any pictures available ? I have been trying to come up with a
suitable
>design, I have a old furnace motor that I plan on using for the air source.
For a picture of the one I built for my shop go to:
http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork/woodshop.html
I'll send you the article I wrote concerning the building of the above
system separately.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 12:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: New Article Added:Tablesaw
Recently, I have been seeing more and more questions about the operation
and safety aspects of table saws. Last year, I wrote an article on this
subject which was published in a woodworking magazine. Because I signed
away the copyrights to this text (standard procedure for freelance
writers), I was hesitant to republish it to my web site. However, I
located the original draft version which had much, much more information
than the final magazine copy, and most of the text was altered from the
printed copy.
Actually, to our benefit, this copy was written AFTER the published
copy, but was misplaced by the publisher, and so I do in fact still own
the reprint rights. I personally prefer this version to the actual
printed version anyway. (my graphics are more accurate too--they made a
mistake, and I was not consulted about it.)
By the way, because of my current occupation, I should probably point
out that this article has nothing to do with American Woodworker
Magazine, and they were not the publication that originally ran the
story. This was freelance work for another magazine.
The article is found at my web site at
http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/
Rick Christopherson
Associate Editor
American Woodworker Magazine
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 4:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: New dial inidicator, results
The mail today brought one of those cheap magnetic base & dial indicator
sets from Hartville Tools (about $35) and I used it to check the runout on
my 10" Delta Benchtop Drill Press, 14" Jet Bandsaw (top wheel only) and Jet
10" contractor's saw with a Forrest WWII blade. I now have a few questions
about whether or not I can believe these results. They seem pretty good to me.
For the DP, I didn't have one of those "know bits", so I just put in a
forstner bit and checked for runout at the top where it's just smooth
metal. The result was a maximum deviation of + .002". I didn't check the
spindle itself because I was too lazy to take the chuck off.
On the tablesaw I put the indicator up against the blade, just below the
teeth. Results were +/- .002" (i.e. .004" total). Maximum deviation was
right at the point where those slits are cut into the blade. I haven't
checked the arbor yet.
On the bandsaw I put the indicator against the top wheel on the tire and
measured the deviation as I spun it around. This one showed - .001" and +
.003".
Questions:
Am I phrasing this properly? For the DP I just happened to start the
measurement at the low spot, so the deviation was purely positive. On the
TS, is this considered .004" or .002" deviation? How about the bandsaw?
Is the fact that I didn't measure the spindle on the DP important? Can I
trust the bit I put in since the result was pretty good?
And lastly, can I trust the cheap Chinese dial indicator itself? What do
you get for more money?
Thanks,
Daniel
--
"There is someone who is living my life. And I know nothing about him."
Daniel A. Segel
daniels at netcom.com
From: Rascallion [twobits at brainiac.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 1998 8:09 PM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: New dial inidicator, results
Hi All,
I think that the dial indicator might be ok for what you are doing. I
would see if the tip of the indicator moves easily and smoothly. For
more money you might jewel points inside for the parts to move on. You
might also get to pay for a name without any difference in quality.
Having used indicators at work (tool and die) and home for woodworking,
I feel that a good cheap indicator is fine for home use. After all I'm
not trying to match parts to .001 like I am at work.
As far as the results you repoted, they are good. However, for the drill
press, you only measured the run out of the bit not the spindle itself.
I have found at work, that a small amount of dirt or dust can throw a
bit off .005-.010. This can also be caused by unevenly tightening the
chuck.
In regardes to the tablesaw,try another blade without slits and see what
the results are. Here again, any dirt where the washers press against
the blade can cause this amount of run out.
For the bandsaw, I wouldn't trust these results due to the fact that the
tire can wear uevenly. Try it again on a metal area of the wheel
provided it is smooth.
Over all IMO, I wouldn't worry about the run out you report. To correct
them would probably be more time and trouble than it is woth.
Frank
From: bill locke [blocke at tmisnet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 7:36 AM
To: Daniel A. Segel; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: New dial inidicator, results
Daniel,
Just a word from another tool and die maker... I agree that non-jeweled/cheap
indicators are adequate for home shop use. My guess is that they are accurate well
within +/- .001". When using any dial indicator, and most particularly an
inexpensive one, it is important that you place it so it measures at 90 degrees
and not be measuring in the extreme limits of its travel in either direction. If
it is not, it will tend to make the mechanism bind/stick and give you a false
reading. Also, keep in mind that band saws and drill presses are not precision
equipment and the results are the most important. This is more related to your
set-up and technique than the actual run-out measurements. TS's are a lot more
precision and a good place to use a dial indicator. Total indicator reading is
half of what the deviation is from theoretical true.
Bill in San Diego
"It's hard to make good chicken salad when you start with chicken crap!"
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: New Router Book by Ian Kirby
To all;
All the discussion about jointing on the router table prompts me to tell
you that Ian Kirby has come out with a very nice small book called "The
Accurate Router" available from Woodworker's Book Club (#80508) at
$11.95 US.
He has a design for a router table, sans base, which he clamps to the
workbench top. The argument is that in small shops who needs another
piece of furniture taking up valuable floor space (been my solution for
years) and the workbench is the most solid thing in most shops.(not my
solution in the past). It will be my solution as soon as I make a new
top using a piece of 3/4" thick SOLID Formica I bought before Christmas
for $50.(34" x 54") The top will not be as big as the size of the piece
but that deal came from a company who supply and install toilet
partitions. Formica make their product as thick as 3/4" for the panels
in these systems and this was a mistake they just wanted to get rid of.
Ian has a method of setting a split fence for doing jointing on the
router table that is so simple that it should prompt some of you to get
the book to see what other equally simple (read inexpensive) jigs he has
come up with.
His fence is done as two totally separate sections which are no more
than screwing two pieces of plywood together to make angle pieces about
12" long.
1. The infeed fence is clamped in place and adjusted for the depth of
cut desired.
2. The router is turned on and a piece about 3' long is run so half its
length is jointed and the router is turned off.
3. The piece of stock is clamped to the infeed fence with the jointed
section extending beyond the bit.
4. The outfeed fence is brought up to the face of the jointed section
and clamped in place.
5. Unclamp the stock and proceed with jointing.
I think that this is an excellent way to do this procedure without
getting into all the complications of a micro adjustable fence and save
a lot of frustration and money in the process.
By the back cover of the book I see that Ian has written 7 books. I
have one other called The Accurate Table Saw which is very heavy into
safety and saw guards. I mentioned that book here about 8 months ago.
Ken Martin and I are going to try and build guards with that book as a
guide. Mine will be a ceiling mounted version which I believe will do
everything required but not get in my way. It will have to be movable
over an area of about 3' x 3' in plan because in my small shop my saw is
moved some to get cleasrance for different operations. That will take
some designing.
I have no connection to Ian Kirby or Cambium Press but am impressed with
the two books I have.
Time to get to my day job.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 5:42 AM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: knisely at ix.netcom.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: New Router! and now I need bits...
Bruce:
Cannot agree that bits without bearings are worthless and must back
up Tom's statement that they are designed for another use. They can be
used in the router table and with a edge guide very successfully for
edge treatement. Additionally, they allow you to use them for beadwork,
edgework, and veins.
Ken Martin
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 2:44 PM
To: 'The Oak List'
Subject: New Table Saw
I am just about ready to order my Christmas present and think it will be a
new table saw for one thing.
I am leaning toward the Grizzly 3hp cabinet saw over the Jet or Delta to
save Santa's little helper about
$500 dollars or more. Is this something I will regret later?? The specs on
the Grizzly look OK.
Does any of you want to talk me out of it.
John
john.e.mark at intel.com
IT Client Engineering http://www-ce.intel.com/index.htm
To error is not an option.
It comes standard with this version of the software.
From: Jack Yesner [jiy at bellsouth.net]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:05 PM
To: Pianoman
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: New Tool
Pianoman wrote:
> Jet came out with a small dust collector, model JSL-610DC, designed for a
> small shop like mine. Rather portable, weighs about 50 lbs. Similar to their
> single stage collector, but with a 3/4 horse moter vs a full horse, and
> smaller. Uses the same 4" hose as do most. Nice thing for me, besides the
> size, was the price. Saved over $30 bucks.
What are the specs of this unit (CFM, etc.). I was seriously looking at the Jet
DC-650K which is one HP and moves 650 CFM. I find it in various catalogs for
about $215, and Jet is currently offering a $15 rebate. With a 2 car garage
workshop, I am afraid to go much smaller, even though I would only run one
machine at a time off the collector.
Jack
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:55 PM
To: jiy at bellsouth.net
Cc: Pianoman; woodworking
Subject: Re: New Tool
A 1 HP dust collector in my opinion is not worth the money it takes to
turn it on. Unless all you intend to use it for to to collect sawdust.
If thats the purpose, just make damn sure the 4" hose is right there
right close to where the sawdust is.
The 1 HP dust collectors are just another example of how industry has
come up with to increase sales. You know, like make it smaller and sell
it for less, but be sure to put it in a large box.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Nomadic WW
>Anybody else having interest or info on this subject: I'd love to hear from you.
Oooooo!!! Another tool box junkie (TBJ)?
I worked with a finisher who had a box that he attached to a two wheel
dolly. The front opened with two doors and it stood about 18" wide X
10" deep X 42" high. For his stuff this worked out pretty good but
then again he didn't require that much.
I've been contemplating a similar system made up of different boxes
that could be stacked and clasped together with draw bolts. Each box
would be geared to a specific duty like sawing, drilling, routing and
hand tools. The individual boxes could be disassembled to load into a
car. The two wheeler would save on my poor back. By breaking things
into different disciplines you'd only need to grab what was required
for a specific duty.
Funny thing is I saw the system of my dreams at the Atlanta show. I'm
sure it ain't cheap. Ask for their Systainers system. Looks like
Nasa went Normite.
http://www.fein.com/en/index.html
The Studley box has to be the ultimate "everything in one spot" box.
This Smithsonian Institute Web page has pictures. Click the "Back To
Main Page" button for additional boxes.
http://www.si.edu/nmah/ve/toolbox/piano.html
Of course you aren't a real TBJ without The Tool Box Book.
The Toolbox Book
by Jim Tolpin
$34.95
Hardcover (June 1996)
Taunton Pr; ISBN: 1561580929
Tolpin shows a couple of examples of portable boxes. Looks like the
theater trades have been working on this for a while. There's also a
all in one box in The Workshop Book by Scott Landis.
Here's a page that has some interesting small boxes.
http://www.folkart.com/~latitude/SHOP*IN*A*BOX/
Along the lines of music the Anvil, Calzone and Zero lines have been
used for years to transport equipment. They'd be easily adapted for
tools.
http://www.epicases.com/
http://www.anvilcase.com/
A good source for box hardware can be gotten from Reliable Hardware.
Lots of corner brackets, clasps and casters. Got some real cool heavy
duty handles too.
http://www.reliablehardware.com/
Keith Bohn
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 5:58 PM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Nomadic WW
Keith and all:
I looked at the piano maker's "toolbox". A thing of beauty! It always
amazes me to see the skill and "art" that some have put into their work. And
I don't mean just "old-timers", either. I've perused the Toolbox Book; some
of the work displayed in it's pages are incredible!
Someday, when I've built the perfect bench (for me) I'll get the perfect
toolchest, too. By then, I hope to have an idea of what I want/need. Seems
like the cabinet I made from old plywood to hold my planes is too small, the
chest I built is not quite right, etc. Thanks for the inspirational url to a
great example!
It would be nice to read about - and see, if possible - what some of this
list's members hath wrought in the way of toolboxes/chests.
David Dahl
Tooling around in Appleton WI
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 11:56 PM
To: Pianoman
Cc: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Nomadic WW
I'm trying to remember where I first heard about the
craftsman's toolbox. I think it was in grade school,
between 1948 and 1952. The point was that during medeival
times the quality of the tool box was a measure of the
craftsman's skill. He couldn't photograph past work, and
descriptions were questionable, but if he had a well-made
tool box then that gave an indication of the quality of his
work (you couldn't run out and buy a tool box in those
days).
The result, of course, was that apprentices spent more
time polishing their tool box than on using the tools it
held (if you don't believe this, consider resume
writers)--also note that the tools inside had to be more
pretty than practical. The tool boxes on the referenced
pages are truly wonderfull works of art, but I wonder what
else their makers made. I am sure the Smithsonian would not
display tool boxes of persons that did not have some other
claim to fame, but I kind of think a milk crate, plastic
tackle box, and long (having carried a lot of loads) arms
are second to a fine piece of furnature.
Don't flame me for not checking out the site--I did. But
then was then, and now is a different social circumstane.
Let us admire, but do different and better.
From: Glen L Keener [newcutashlar at juno.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 4:38 AM
To: bgowens at home.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Nomadic WW
The same was true of a seaman's chest. They were made of a durable wood,
chosen for beauty, dovetailed in the joints to show the seaman's ability
there, tapered from base to top to allow walking by while the ship was
rolling without banging sailors' legs, and very fancy handles showing the
owner's ability with rope and knots. Traditionally they had no locks, as
thieves would not be tolerated aboard a good ship, and if someone
insulted his shipmates by locking his chest, he would find it VERY
securely nailed and bolted shut when he came off watch.
I am concentrating on seaman's chests, now, trying to make good ones, of
maple and ash, for each grandchild. In addition to the dovetailed corner
joints, the planks are joined on the flat with butterfly keys, and the
ropework is old-fashioned manila fiber, good hemp rope being impossible
to find these days.
If anyone has a source of hemp rope in 5/8th or 3/4" diameter, please let
me know.
Glen, landlocked in Minnesota where they think that my Peapod spooned
oars are sure funny lookin' paddlesFrom: Jan Molenkamp [molenkamp at earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 8:40 AM
To: Glen L Keener; bgowens at home.com; The Oaks
Subject: Re: Nomadic WW
Bucking trends being one of CA most obvious traits you're sure
to find some here. For specific information the best I can do
is point you to Real Goods in Ukiah, in Northern California.
They have a whole line of hemp products like shirts, hats, bags,
which as I remember are all made in the US. They should be able
to lead you to the mfr.
Their URL is http://www.realgoods.com
Good luck
Jan
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 3:28 PM
To: t. ramsden
Cc: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Norm's MS extensions?
Yup....... Biesemeyer makes it..... I have the smaller one, 6 feet to the left
and 3.5 feet to the right...... I bought mine through tool crib of the north...
I think they're the only ones who sell them... Never seen them elsewhere...
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal desease......
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:06 AM
To: t. ramsden
Cc: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Norm's MS extensions?
Hi All;
I,m not sure who makes that particular one, but there are a number of
companies that do so.
I just got a press releases from DeWalt and they seem to have a pretty
nifty portable unit it's the Model DW730 Mitre Saw Workstation.
One other worth looking at is the Trim-Tramp, a great system.
Graham
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:59 AM
To: graham at shortcuts.ns.ca; t. ramsden
Cc: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: RE: Norm's MS extensions?
Graham and all,
Is the DeWalt unit the one that HD has for $279.95USD? It seems like a
bunch of money for what it is. I am considering building a slot in a long
bench for mine. If I need to hit the road with mine, I'll take a couple of
roller stands along. I'm not sure why a stand for a tool should cost as
much as a fairly decent stationary tool.
Gary Cavener
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:28 PM
To: Horstman, B. Dean
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Off Subject: Storage shed & mice
OK,
mouse plagues are not uncommon in wheat growing areas so one trick
farmers use is a 44 gallon drum half full of water with a wooden plank
leading out over the open top. Mice walk out and fall in and drown.
Technique adopted from that famous gentleman Henry Morgan, one time
governor of Jamaca.
Geoff.
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 2:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Off Subject: Storage shed & mice
Oops, bad directions. Mark your "X" on the lid. Plunge your knife at the
tip of one of the legs of the "X", with the sharp edge towards the center.
Then, insert knife, maybe rocking it too, until you reach the center.
Repeat 3 times.
Todd.
>I'd sink a knife into the top center of the lid, and make a cut towards the
>edge. I'd do this three more times to make an "X" hole. (Think of it as
>marking a plus sign + on the lid, then cutting from the center outwards
>along each leg.)
From: Warell at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:25 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Oil or Oilless Compressor
I know this has been discussed in the past. However, I have noticed a
substantial difference in price between oilless and oil lubricated
compressors. I do woodworking as a hobby and will be using the compressor for
finish nailing, painting and a few other tasks on a part-time basis. Based
upon my projected usage, would it make a difference as to which compressor I
purchase?
Thank you for your input.
Warren S.
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:39 PM
To: Warell at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Oil or Oilless Compressor
Warren,
Let me tell ya little story.I am in the process of doing all the
woodwork in a 7000 sf house.Kitchen,6 baths the whole shootin match.On
jobs like this you sometimes need to do a small amount of finishing on
site.I have 4 fine spray guns which all require a large compressor to
run.I also have 3 compressors all of which are to large or small for
what I wanted.I bought a special hvlp spray gun made by Binks that is
said to run on a small compressor.Only problem was my only portable
was to small since I only use it to shoot brads in molding.
When it comes to tools I always try to buy the best.I was going to
buy a small Emglo hand carry compressor.These are oil filled and that
is what I wanted.They are quieter and last longer.To get the cfm I
needed for the task at hand it would have cost me $600-$700 for a
Emglo compressor so I thought I would shop a little.Every compressor I
saw with the cfm I wanted was in this price range except 1.It was the
new Porter Cable CF2400 and was around $325.It has 8.3cfm at 40lb
which is comparable to the others in the $600 range.Only problem is it
is oiless.
I then found that it is rated to last 2800-3000 hours.For around nine
cents an hour I decided I don't care .Bought one and it is a very nice
hand carry compressor.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
P.S.
I didn't spend this much time on some tools I have costing $10,000
dollars.I think this list is making me cheap:-)
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Oil or Oilless Compressor
Warren,
Aside from anything else, you will find that the oilless compressor is much
noisier than the oil lube type. This will be especially important if the
compressor is located in the same room that you're working in.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:28 PM
To: Warell at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Oil or Oilless Compressor + minor gloat
I have owned an oiless Cambell Hausfield S? for about 12 years and it
was a rebuild when I bought it.
Now it has always sounded like it was about to throw a rod, this is
normal for an oiless they tell me. For about half its life it was
only used for air brushing, inflating pool toys and car tires or
tyres. In the last five years its been used for a few major jobs i.e.
blowing Melamine paint on a counter top, 30 kitchen cabinet doors n
draws, bath tub and a dozen interior doors and automotive paint on a
garage door. During these jobs it ran almost continuously as it only
has a 12 gal tank. Over the last year it has developed a dislike for
the extension cord so me thinks its drawing a few more amps than it
should. I am about to find out if its got much life left in it as
today [here's the gloat] I got a PC FN250A air nailer.
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Old Equipment
An old man is selling his old wwkg. equipment. It's fairly old. The table
saw I know was manufactured in January 1951. The other items; band saw, drill
press, 6" jointer, look to be about the same vintage. He wants 1200.00 for
the lot. What do you think?
-Steve
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:05 PM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Equipment
Steve,
It sounds like the old guy is trying to work you over. Give me his phone
number and address and I will scold him thoroughly for you 8^).
As with anything used, you need first to look at the condition and
cleanliness of the items carefully. Anything born 40 some odd years ago will
likely need repairs of some sort or another (including me). Bearings and
bushings will most likely be readily available through a bearing supply
house so you should pay special attention to castings and the like - these
will probably be harder to come by.
Not having seen the equipment and knowing MY capabilities, I would probably
be writing the check right now. Of course YMMV.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
PS - are you sure this is asking for advice and not a gloat 8^)?
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Equipment
> An old man is selling his old wwkg. equipment. It's fairly old. The table
>saw I know was manufactured in January 1951. The other items; band saw, drill
>press, 6" jointer, look to be about the same vintage. He wants 1200.00 for
>the lot. What do you think?
>-Steve
Who are the manufacturers? If it's Delta or equal I'd have cash in
hand and the truck rented just in case the guy changed his mind at the
last moment.
If you decide to pass on it and the guy is in the Milwaukee area
please do a body a favor and pass his name and number along?
Keith Bohn
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:47 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Equipment
>If the "lot" just includes the equipment you listed, figure $300 apiece, not
>a great deal. But, if it includes all his hand tools too, and the other
>do-dads you might find in a 45+year old shop, it would be a prety good deal,
>assuming the majority of the tools were at least of average quality in above
>average condition...
Steve e-mailed me that the equipment was Delta-Milwaukee. This is
pre-war cast iron stuff. 'Tween you and me I got to salivating and
$300 each average sounds like he may have stumbled upon something
good.
Sure wish he'd be more specific about what he found? Steve?
Keith Bohn
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:38 AM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Old Growth Pine
There was some talk about "old growth Pine" recently. Having just
completed an old growth piece, I thought I'd take a couple snaps for the
benifit of those who were not certain what Old Grown Pine actually
looked like.
1. This jpeg (jpg), is smaller in size than the door photo. Just there
in case anyone want to know what the overall whole piece looked like.
http://theoak.com/Don/wholepiece.jpeg
2. This jpeg (jpg) is large in download size. It was the only way I
could show the clarity of "old growth" to insure that it would not be
lost in resolution. Note the closeness of the dark (summerwood) and
light (springwood) annual rings which is typical of old growth.
http://theoak.com/Don/dooronly.jpeg
Some of the "white" showing is white paint residue, and some is gloss or
light reflection.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 6:48 PM
To: Woodworking, Post
Subject: Old growth wood and why
I learned something interesting this weekend from my big sister, who is a �
some kind of doctor in studies of botany, ecology, etc. We do not talk much,
since she lives about 6,000 miles away, but on the way home from a business
trip I stopped there and we talked all kinds of things and she happened to
research some nitrogen cycle in nature and what changes it causes.
I got quite interested, since I learned something I didn�t know and it
explains why we will hardly again see an equivalent to old growth wood.
Here is what happened according to this study. There is lots more nitrogen
in the air today than it used to be. Not the free nitrogen, but nitrogen
oxides that are mostly generated by exhaust fumes from vehicles and by
burning other fossil fuels. This nitrogen gets dissolved in water and falls
down on the ground in the form of frutilizer (sp?). The problem is, it is
too much of it and falls everywhere - anyplace it rains. The average yearly
value is 150 kg/ha (or 330 lbs/2.4711 acre, or 133 lbs/acre). This is
average and it is a lot. It used to be just couple of kilos before we got
all the conveniences of life. This explains, why trees grow much faster
after being so generously frutilized. By growing faster, they create wider
growth rings and softer wood.
Sorry if I bored someone, but seemed quite interesting to me, so wanted to
share.
Any idea how to make people give up cars so we get better lumber again? :-)
Regards,
Zdenek
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:45 AM
To: Mestenhauser, Zdenek
Cc: 'Gary L. Yarrow'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old growth wood and why
My turn to ramble. Nitrous oxides in the air tend to
combine with moisture to produce nitric acid, which is
definitely not good for plants. I wonder how much of that
nitrogen hitting the ground is in acid form?? Same thing,
incidently, with sulfur oxides turning into sulpheric
acid-which is why smog stings our eyes.
Parts of the US and Canada, particularly the
Adirondack, St. Lawrence and Quebec areas have been hit by
this acidification; not only in tree growth but in the
decline of fish in the waters. This has been blamed on the
"rust belt" industries on the US side of the Great Lakes.
As to the figures perhaps being higher in Europe, I
would think any difference would not collerate with
population as much as it would with miles driven or gas
consumed by cars (US-greater distances, longer commutes,
perhaps more cars per population) and the degree of "heavy"
industry.
As to Gary's reference to the stresses making tight
hard rings, I'm reminded of an article in Wood magazine of
some time ago where a family decided that to pass wealth
down to their great-grandchildern without taxes and
inflation diluting it, they would plant Walnut trees as a
crop to be harvested in about 100 years. Around each walnut
seedling was planted a bunch of faster-growing "training"
trees. They shaded the walnut, forceing it to grow up
instead of out in it's seach for sunlight. Thus tighter
wood and longer straight portions on the walnut trunks.
This is, apparently, a common technique.
From: Rich Callella [RAARTWORKS at email.msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:17 PM
To: Wood List
Subject: Old Jointer
Last weekend while in Las Vegas (of all places) I came across an old jointer
that my stepbrother-in-law was selling for $75.00. Its a 6 inch
Delta/Milwaukee. He plugged it in to show me that it did run. All the
parts are there even the original Delta duel voltage motor. I plan on
changing it to 220v. Its mounted on a very strong wooden Stand with a metal
dust chute built in.
So far all I've done is completely disassemble the whole thing. I use to do
the same thing with all my toys a long time ago. Anyway I plan to clean
everything up and maybe replace the cutter head bearings and of course put
on new blades. Of course this has an end mounted fence but does it look
strong.
I contacted Delta by e-mail yesterday and today I received a answer back
from Judy Ken. She informed me that she can send me a manual and parts
list. I also sent her the serial number and she said this jointer was made
in December 1947. And they still have a manual and parts list? Boy, this
thing is almost as old as I am. (I didn't come with a manual)
Anyway, after reading all the posts about fixing up older machines and how
they are probable better than most new ones, I just could not pass it up.
From: Marty Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:41 PM
To: Wood List; Rich Callella
Subject: Re: Old Jointer
Be advised, changing the bearing on a jointer cutterhead isn't for the
faint of heart. I believe they must be pressed off and on. If it were
me and the HAD to be replaced, I'd take the cutter head along with
the bearings (look in the yellow pages under BEARINGS for a
supplier, you'll probably save 50% over the Delta price) to an
experienced machinist.
I didn't replace them on my 8" Rockwell jointer. But they were in fine
condition.
Marty
From: Richard Funnell [rfunnell at pobox.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Old Roots air compressor
I have a very old, incredibly heavy industrial Roots air compressor in my
garage. The last time I tried, the wheels still turned though I question
the condition of the bearings. I don't have a tank or a single phase
motor, so it would cost me as much as a reasonably good compressor to get
it going, which is my question. Should I get this beast working, or sell
it and buy a good, oil-lubed unit.
Pros for Roots:
- Smooth operation (200 lbs of cast iron, rotary compressor hardware)
- Quiet
Cons:
- Unknown specs for this type of compressor. Can they reach high pressure?
- Much money for unknown results (though the challenge sounds like fun).
Is anyone familiar with this type of unit? Thoughts? Information?
Richard
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 9:08 AM
To: Richard Funnell
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Roots air compressor
Hi Richard, I could be wrong but I think that the roots type compressors are
generally used for high volume and low pressure applications. We had one when
I worked for Georgia-Pacific that was used to move sawdust and shavings, we
quit using it because the neighbors (1/4 mile away) were complaining about the
noise. Of course it was 200 hp ;^)
Bill
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:28 AM
To: Bill Neely; Richard Funnell
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Roots air compressor
Howdy Bill
Don't know of course so that's why I'm asking but do that mean that Richard
has a compressor that would work with a HVLP spray gun (non conversion
type)?
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Roots air compressor
Hi, Richard:
I have no idea what range of products Roots manufactures, but the
units where I work are all rotary lobe blowers, not compressors as
such. They are used in pneumatic conveying of granular material
through 8" diameter aluminum piping. They are positive displacement
blowers, so they will build pressure if there is no where for the air
to go, but they are not intended to run at high pressures and have
relief valves on them to prevent it.
Whether this has any bearing at all on the unit you have or not, I
couldn't say.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Roots air compressor
Mike G. wrote:
>
> Don't know of course so that's why I'm asking but do that mean that Richard
> has a compressor that would work with a HVLP spray gun (non conversion
> type)?
>
Don't know either, Mike. When I was a kid building hot cars 40 years
ago, a Roots supercharger was the way to go to get a lot of extra
power. That suggests boost pressures of 10-15 psi and high volume.
Sounds like a recipe for a good HVLP air source to me. Regards,
Gerald
From: Ron Winger [rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 7:09 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Toilet - HELP!
Arrrrggghhhhh!!! I *HATE* bathrooms...
there....I feel better.
Gerald, I assume the toilet is on concrete, as you mentioned it is in the
basement?
I ran into this situation at my grandmothers house about 25 years ago, but
there was a crawlspace to work in. I simply used one of those rubber
dohickeys with a pipe clamp at each end to go from the cast iron to the
more modern pvc....then set the closet flange on that.
I could see a hole cut in the concrete floor here, and the same type of
"fix"...I went through it in the house I live in now, only to repair a
busted pipe. SWMBO is still fretting about the mess THAT made <G>.
Actually, on the fix in my house, I hired a plumber to advise and actually
do the pipe work...the mess was bad enough that even I only wanted it once.
At 09:29 PM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I usually post solutions or comments, but this time I have a problem. I
>take care of my mother's house, which is 130 miles down a busy road, and
>one of her toilets has failed. Confident in my ability to do anything,
>I brought my standard repair parts. I discovered that 72 years ago,
>toilets were not as we know them now. I could not do a repair with the
>parts I brought with me.
>
>Here's the situation. The main bathroom got a new toilet 40 years ago,
>and my dad put the old one in the basement to provide a second bathroom
>in the old house. My dad is long since dead, and I was a teenager at
>the time he installed it and didn't pay attention to how he installed
>it. Now I have to deal with the problem.
>
>I need to install a new toilet. I can handle the water feed with a
>flexible universal pipe, but I don't know what to expect for the sewer
>connection once I lift the toilet. Does anyone have experience that can
>help me? I plan to buy a standard toilet flange before I go to the job
>site. I know that I will find a 4" cast iron sewer pipe when I remove
>the toilet, but how do I adapt that to a standard flange? Any responses
>will be appreciated.
>
>Gerald
>
Regards,
Ron Winger
e-mail: bearcat at wyoming.com
http://www.wyoming.com/~rwinger
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 9:09 PM
To: Ron Winger; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Old Toilet - HELP!
I had to do essentially the same thing in my last house. I borrowed a
"hammer drill" with a masonry bit and drilled a bunch of holes around the
flange and 4" iron pipe, then busted the concrete out with a sledge hammer.
I dug out the concrete chunks and the dirt around the pipe, then cut through
the 4" iron pipe with my Makita version of a Sawzall. That job was my
excuse to buy the saw. I was through that pipe in about 2 minutes. Then I
used one of the aforementioned rubber dohickeys, with stainless steel screw
clamps at each end, to attach the ABS (black, thick plastic) pieces
including a new flange. Once I got everything placed just so, I poured
concrete back into the hole. Solid as a man made rock. If you don't
already have one, this is a great excuse to get a recip saw.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Winger [mailto:rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 7:09 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old Toilet - HELP!
Arrrrggghhhhh!!! I *HATE* bathrooms...
there....I feel better.
Gerald, I assume the toilet is on concrete, as you mentioned it is in the
basement?
I ran into this situation at my grandmothers house about 25 years ago, but
there was a crawlspace to work in. I simply used one of those rubber
dohickeys with a pipe clamp at each end to go from the cast iron to the
more modern pvc....then set the closet flange on that.
I could see a hole cut in the concrete floor here, and the same type of
"fix"...I went through it in the house I live in now, only to repair a
busted pipe. SWMBO is still fretting about the mess THAT made <G>.
Actually, on the fix in my house, I hired a plumber to advise and actually
do the pipe work...the mess was bad enough that even I only wanted it once.
At 09:29 PM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I usually post solutions or comments, but this time I have a problem. I
>take care of my mother's house, which is 130 miles down a busy road, and
>one of her toilets has failed. Confident in my ability to do anything,
>I brought my standard repair parts. I discovered that 72 years ago,
>toilets were not as we know them now. I could not do a repair with the
>parts I brought with me.
>
>Here's the situation. The main bathroom got a new toilet 40 years ago,
>and my dad put the old one in the basement to provide a second bathroom
>in the old house. My dad is long since dead, and I was a teenager at
>the time he installed it and didn't pay attention to how he installed
>it. Now I have to deal with the problem.
>
>I need to install a new toilet. I can handle the water feed with a
>flexible universal pipe, but I don't know what to expect for the sewer
>connection once I lift the toilet. Does anyone have experience that can
>help me? I plan to buy a standard toilet flange before I go to the job
>site. I know that I will find a 4" cast iron sewer pipe when I remove
>the toilet, but how do I adapt that to a standard flange? Any responses
>will be appreciated.
>
>Gerald
>
Regards,
Ron Winger
e-mail: bearcat at wyoming.com
http://www.wyoming.com/~rwinger
From: Jeff Marshall [nickevan at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:46 PM
To: Elliott, Bob; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old tool help
There are several books on old tools and prices. The price guides should
not be taken too literally - value can vary tremendously based upon the
condition of the tool. Also note that price is not necessarily an indicator
of quality. Some high priced old tools are expensive because they are rare,
interesting, pretty, etc., but may not work worth a darn. A few books that
I have found useful include:
"Collecting Antique Tools" by Herbery P. Kean and Emil S. Pollak, published
by the Astragal Press, 1990.
"A Price Guide to Antique Tools", also by Kean and Pollak. This book serves
as the price guide companion to the above. My version was published in
1992, but I believe an update version was published in 1997 or 1998.
"Antique and Collectivel Stanley Tools" by John Walter.
Good luck with the sale, and don't forget to post your list.From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 1:35 AM
To: Elliott, Bob
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Old tool help
Bob,
There is an "old tools list". The archive of messages is at
http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/mhonarc/OLDTOOLS/ . They have a
tool sale on the first Monday of each month. Look for the messages
preceded by "FS". Please be aware that the prices you see should be
considered as retail prices, not flea market prices.
Good Luck,
Lawrie
>Does anyone knwo of a internet site where they have old tools and prices?
>Are there and books that exist on the subject? If anyone knows plese
>forward the info to me.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bob Elliott
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:31 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: One Man Shop
I often wonder how a one-person shop can survive. I am operating my business part-time until I retire and been quite busy and not making much money (But, getting quite a few tools). How does one make a living doing this? Would be interested in how other have become successful?
John
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 6:46 AM
To: John & Marie McInnis
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: One Man Shop
John,
If you are busy and not making any money there are only 2 things that I
would say are the problem.To much overhead or you are not charging
enough for your work.Since it sounds like you are working from your
house it's probably not the overhead.
I found out along time ago that working alot of hours for no money does
not work.Raise your prices .If you loose some of the work who cares.You
were doing it for nothing anyhow.
There are 100 shops in my area.Mostly amish.I do not try to compete
with them.Contrary to popular beleif they have large production
equipment and do what they do very effeiciently.I stick with high end
custom work because it is something that most of these other shop don't
do.You can't try and build what people can buy at the furniture store up
the street.You have to have a special market and product.
After 8 years it is still not easy to make a decent living but I am
learning and every year is getting better.If you loved it as a hobby you
may not love it as a job and if you don't you will probably not make it
for long.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com on behalf of David Chekal [nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:28 AM
To: Mike Bridges
Cc: John & Marie McInnis; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: One Man Shop
There is a short article in the current issue of Better Homes &
Gardens
Wood Magazine (one of guys had it lying around the office) on
this sort
of thing called "Will selling your work ruin a fun hobby". It's a
real
quick read and basically says first you need to figure out why
your selling
your work? A)To pay for the tools or buys more tools B) a bit of
extra
cash C) to make a living.
The article agrees with Mike's assessment that if you are
backlogged that
you might want to raise your prices and/or start working more on
larger
big ticket items that will bear an increased profit margin. The
blurb
at the end says the author, Jack Neff, has a book out called "How
to
make your woodworking pay for itself" I've never seen it, but it
can't
hurt to flip through it at the bookstore if they have it.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 9:19 AM
To: nz16hc at wtc.nec.gmeds.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: One Man Shop
Hi David. I have a day job, but also have "Burch Carpentry and Woodworking"
that I operate, when I have the time.
Being a business owner, then, I have at times felt "guilty / illegitimate"
that income from my business does not actually "support" me on a regular
basis. My mindset has been "Uh oh, the tax man is going to catch up with
me", not for fraud or the like, but for not actually making any REAL money.
But, after reading your note, a little light bulb went on in the shadows of
my little brain, and I realized that a business that is set up to "make a
little extra cash" is a perfectly legit business. "So what" the tax man is
not getting very much - he is still getting his due. Wow! I'll sleep
better tonight. I think I just added 10 years to my life, not worrying all
the time that I'm not making regular "big" money.
Todd Burch, singing a happy song in Houston, Texas, and where answers for
other peoples' problems are always so clear... why is that?
(Ok, so I'm not as quick as you guys...:-)
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 2:31 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: One Man Shop
An excellent book on the topic of turning a woodworking hobby into one's
primary source of income is Jim Tolpin's "Going Professional : A
Woodworker's Guide".
Our local library happened to have it, which is where I obtained the copy I
read a few months ago. One of his main points is to develop a costing and
pricing methodology which is accurate and provides for an adequate profit
margin.
John H.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:15 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: One Man Shop
Easier said than done, John. But something is better than nothing. :-)
There are lots of people in small business's who have been there for a
long time and still cannot figure it out.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 12:12 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: One other quick note.
Hopefully, this won't be considered a commercial announcement. I have no
connection with this company or Highland Hardware.
I also received a dovetail saw. It is made by Independence Tool Company.
The saw is a work of art and cuts like a dream. The best hand saw I have
ever used. Bought it on the recommendation of Frank Klausz at the
Atlanta show. You have to wait about 45 days until the guy at
Independence Tool makes one for you. Worth every penny.
Tom Knisely
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 10:38 AM
To: knisely at ix.netcom.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: One other quick note.
Tom;
What you have there, is one of the best backsaws that you will ever see.
Pat Leach and Pete Taran started that company, Independence Tools, which
since Leach has sold his part to Taran. Its an excellant saw,
definately not cheap, retails for around $125, but is worth it if you
or anyone else, does a lot of hand dovetailing. Pete also has a
"carcass" or tennon saw now, for around the same price (don't have one,
maybe some day.)Take a look at www.intool.com for a history. Pete used
to redo saws for people, he refiled, etc. a Freud dovetail saw for me
that now works wonders. Unfortunately for us, and fortunately for him,
he is now selling so many of his new saws, that he doesn't have time to
fix other saws for people. I have a couple of others that I wish I
could send to him, but......
Leach is one of the biggest net dealers in old tools, and the IT dovetai
saw is a copy of a saw from the 1830's. It will take a little while to
get used to it, but..... Its filed rip, not crosscut, but dovetailing
is a rip operation.
Congrats on the birthday (and presents!) Hope you get good use out of
the saw.
Gary
>Hopefully, this won't be considered a commercial announcement. I have no
>connection with this company or Highland Hardware.
>
>I also received a dovetail saw. It is made by Independence Tool Company.
>The saw is a work of art and cuts like a dream. The best hand saw I have
>ever used. Bought it on the recommendation of Frank Klausz at the
>Atlanta show. You have to wait about 45 days until the guy at
>Independence Tool makes one for you. Worth every penny.
>
>Tom Knisely
>
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: David Cohen [imageinc1 at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Opinion on which wood
Hi groupies,
Going to tackle building beds for my two boys. Going to design them with
equal height headboards and footboards as to possibly make them bunk beds
in the future ( stack them ). I am trying to decide on the wood to use...
I can get some nice ash (select) for a great price OR some #1 common hard
maple for about the same price. I know that the maple will have more waste
since it is #1. My greater concern is workability.... I have worked hard
maple before and it is not that easy on the tools or muscles. Then again,
ash it a strong wood with an open grain that will need to be filled. Any
opinions will be appreciated.
Sincerely,
David Cohen
Roswell, Ga.
imageinc1 at mindspring.com
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 3:16 PM
To: David Cohen
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Opinion on which wood
I don't understand why the ash grain would need to be filled.I build
alot of furniture and cabinetry from ash and very seldom fill the
grain.
About the only time I do is for table tops when the customer wants a
slick gloss finish.
This is fine for a table top but I would not prefer this look on a
bed.
Especially for the boys.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: spacebal [spaceballs at iname.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 6:14 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: osb filling
I have a client who wants me to put polyester finish on osd (oriented
strand board) it have a grey stain
on it then a gloss finish applied ( almost a metalic) my problem is how to
fill the voids in the board they can get as large as 1/8" or 1.5 mm and
just as deep . The board is quite blotchy but my concern it any filler I
have sags when it dries
any suggestions would help thanks in advance
Peter
From: Randy Brewer [master at firstnethou.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 7:27 AM
To: 935363 at ican.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: osb filling
How about using Bondo the magic filler.
It cures fast, does'nt sag and is easy to apply.
Randy Brewer
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 3:26 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; spaceballs at iname.com
Subject: RE: osb filling
Try Durham's Rock Hard water putty. I understand there's nothing better.
It can be tinted too.
>I have a client who wants me to put polyester
I think you meant polyurethane. Polyester would be from one of those
leisure suits.
From: Jon Lang [jml at snet.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 4:37 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Outdoor finish question
I have some outdoor furniture that is made of a wood reported to be "Phillipine Mahogany". When it was new, I opted to put a finish on it as the color and texture of the wood was too nice to let fade to gray. After some research, I finished them with two coats of General Finishes Outdoor Oil. This is a oil that claims to have great UV protection additives. After careful application, the furniture looked great for about 6 months but things are beginning to get spotty. Some questions:
1 - Has anyone else out there used this finish and had similar results?
2 - Should I reapply the same finish or is there something better suited to this purpose? (I live in the Northeast, the furniture spends the winter inside)
3 - If I choose to reapply, are there any steps I can take to prevent this from happening again? Do I have to do anything in light of the faded and blotchy appearance that the wood has now?
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 5:14 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Outdoor finish question
Jon,
These types of finishes (actually any outdoor finish) will need to be renewed by
cleaning and re-application of the product. The label should have directions to
guide you in the cleaning and re-application. If not, look for a toll free
number to call for technical help. Here's a URL with some information which
purports to give results on the testing of around twenty outdoor water
repellents:
http://www.lcwc.com/perform.htm
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Larry Mamlet [mamlet at dmv.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: re: padauk
About 30 years ago I built a chest, about 60" x 36" x 18" out of 6/4
padauk. The front and end panels are carved with copies of 14th century
French and English figures. As I carved, I used a home-made sealer of
highly thinned water-clear brushing lacquer with some olive oil. The wood
is kind of difficult to carve because the grain runs in several directions
at once., but it holds detail beautifully.
After all this time with occasional doses of clear teak oil when it looks
dry, the wood is rich dark red with highlights. It doesn't resemble any
other wood I've worked with or seen and the box joints (because of the 6/4
wood) are still dramatic. I can't even imagine what that much padauk would
cost today, but it sure is handsome. And really stable in arid California
and now in damp Maryland.
Larry Mamlet
>I am contemplating using African Padauk to make a double pedestal desk.
>Anyone every use this wood extensively to give me feedback on pros and cons.
>Any input welcomed.
>
>Thanks
>
>
From: Gardner [marchave at netins.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:23 PM
To: WOODWORKING at theoak.com
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
A&T, I am using the "most expensive" Wagner power roller. I don't remember the
number and I can't go look at it since my folks have it for a while.
If you are just painting a 10x10 room, then yes, it is a huge PITA for the time
savings you'll get. A conservative guess is that it takes about 30 minutes to
thoroughly clean the system out. However, the rooms in our remodeled farm house
are fairly large and it was esp. a godsend when we put the primer on. And if
you're painting ceilings, you won't want anything else. I started to paint the
ceiling with a brush and quickly gave it up and went to the roller. It took me
over 20 minutes to paint about 1/5th of a ceiling. Once I had the power roller
up and running, it only took me about another 30 minutes to do the rest of the
ceiling.
I've also found that if you plan your painting fairly carefully so as to
minimize cleanouts, you can save a lot of time (and paint) also. Basically, I
seal everything with plastic bags and saran wrap and put it in the fridge. The
coolness helps inhibit the paint from drying. When I'm ready to use it again, I
then mix up the paint can and detach the roller wand and run paint thru 'til its
all mixed up again.
If this doesn't sell you on a roller, then I'd spring for the $300-350
Campbell/Hausfeld system. That's about $100 to $150 more expensive than a
comparable Wagner painter. You need a system that expensive to spray the
heavier latex paints. A friend of mine who is an engineer and will pay extra if
its worth it looked at both systems and felt the C/H system was worth the extra
green. I would have gone with the same system but didn't want to have to worry
about overspray.
Let me know what you decide and how it works out for you. For me, the extra
$200 for sprayer wasn't worth it when the roller was plenty good enough.
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 6:55 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
At 10:23 PM 11/10/98 -0600, Gardner wrote:
The question of what does one think of the Wagner line of sprayers was
raised, so I'll tell ya.
My paint shop 'n finish supplier gave me the skinny of Wagner. He said
they are your basic HH line and will not provide the type of finished
result you'd expect so if you have no problem trading price for quality of
the end result, then this product is for you.
The professional end of the Wagner line is called SprayTech and their
models range in price from $600 to $2500. Obviously I'm not a professional
house painter so I settled on the model 650, which was about $650. It is
capable of spraying everything from lacquers to heavy paints by changing
out a simple tip in the spray gun...your basic smaller diameter orifice for
a thinner product type of thing.
Yes, it's $600 but what you get and the multitude of job functions it
serves is well worth the investment. Hell, you could rent it out to your
neighbors for when they put shiny on their homes. I've used mine to spray
paint only once (on account of I loathe painting), but what a job it did!
Absolutely flawless and, the part I truly liked, PAINLESS!
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Ron Devlin [rpdevlin at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:39 AM
To: Gardner; WOODWORKING at theoak.com
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
Has anybody used the Wagner power roller to paint the exterior of a
house? I was thinking about using a sprayer this time around. I think
anything would beat the old brush/roller method I've used in the past.
Ron Devlin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Gardner [marchave at netins.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 5:23 PM
To: WOODWORKING at theoak.com
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
Yes, that is what I bought my mine for, originally. My old house had masonite
siding w/ about 11" of exposure per piece of siding. I actually used the pad
attachment to my wagner roller and it was a pretty effective paint delivery
system. Basically, I would load the pad up with paint, slobber it onto the
siding, then go along with a paint brush to get the bottom of a piece of siding
and to make sure it was relatively evenly coated. Other than that, I found the
power roller to be of little value. However, I would rate it as better than
roller and "bucket" since you don't have to load the "bucket" very often.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Devlin <rpdevlin at yahoo.com>
To: Gardner <marchave at netins.net>; WOODWORKING at theoak.com
<WOODWORKING at theoak.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
Has anybody used the Wagner power roller to paint the exterior of a
house? I was thinking about using a sprayer this time around. I think
anything would beat the old brush/roller method I've used in the past.
Ron Devlin
From: Mein Name [JosefSeidl at t-online.de]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 11:56 AM
To: JMeyer3204 at aol.com
Cc: The oak mail list
Subject: Re: PAINT SPRAYERS
I bought one several years ago just for doing exactly that. I used it once -
painting the walls in my basement where there was a lot of water pipes that
made it hard to get there with paint brush and roller.
Howeve, I was not too happy with how it all worked: quite messy, and it used
a lot of paint and took a long time to clean up afterwards. Havent used it
since.
Probably it was just my ignorance and more practice would have helped me to
do a better job - But I've reverted back to my good old brush and rollers.
regards
Josef H. Seidl
Kn�llwald, Germany
JosefSeidl at t-online.de
-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: JMeyer3204 at aol.com <JMeyer3204 at aol.com>
An: WOODWORKING at THEOAK.COM <WOODWORKING at THEOAK.COM>
Datum: Montag, 9. November 1998 00:32
Betreff: PAINT SPRAYERS
>CAN ANYONE COMMENT ON THE WAGNER PAINT SPRAYERS. I WANT TO PAINT THE
INSIDE
>OF MY HOUSE INCLUDING THE CEILIINGS. I UNDERSTAND THEY HAVE AN ATTACHMENT
FOR
>THAT. IF WAGNER IS NOT GOOD WHAT IS?
>
> JIM
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Wayne MacDougall
Subject: Re: Painting Birck Plywood
I am not sure Wayne, but I think there is a law against
finishing Birch plywood without edge banding.
I Know for sure that there is a law against using any opaque
finish on Birch.
Where do you live.....? Do you have relatives in the old
country.......?
(insert silly grin here)
To answer your question, Yes, you can fill and sand the
edges and get a smooth surface for finishing.
Here is my recommendation.....if you are dead set against
edge banding.
Fill, sand, and prepare the edges for finishing.
Completely finish the piece with a water based clear
polyurethane semi-gloss product, including the plywood
edges.
Then paint the exposed edges with a black high gloss enamel.
It is a good appearance for pieces like desks.
Let the beauty of the wood show for the benefit of your
future descendents. With luck the piece may be handed down
for several generations, and they may never get another
chance to see what real wood looks like in the future.
10Q,
Moose
Wisdom ceases to be wisdom when it becomes too proud to
weep, too grave to laugh, and too selfful to seek other than
itself. - Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931) [Sand and Foam]
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne MacDougall <suer at cyberus.ca>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 01:52 AM
Subject: Painting Birck Plywood
>Hi all, thanx for the wonderful information.
>
>I am making a small desk for my daughter out of birch ply
that will be
>painted. The plan calls for all of the ply edges to be
banded. Can I fill
>any holes in the play and seal the end and then paint
instaed of banding.
>I know the banding would produce a nicer edge but if I sand
smooth before
>painting would there be a difference.
>
>Thanx, Waynem
>
>
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:52 AM
To: 'cofino at us.ibm.com'
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: RE: PALS system
On Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:33 PM, cofino at us.ibm.com
[SMTP:cofino at us.ibm.com] wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> Sounds good.
>
> What dealer carries the PALS system?
>
> Thanks, Tom
Tom,
I got it at Woodcraft for $20.97 (tax and shipping) back in Jan.
1997. Much cheaper than the $50 I remembered! (so much for memory). It
stands for Precision Alignment System, sells for $19.95. I'd give you
the item number but it depends on the saw. It's page 85 of their latest
catalog. 1-800-225-1153. Well worth it.
Chuck
From: Larry Mamlet [mamlet at dmv.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Parts for a venerable Columbian vise
I have a grand old vise marked "Columbian Vise Co. Cleveland, Ohio A-13-1."
The screw and all other parts are in excellent condition -- even though the
vise was apparently soaked during Noah's flood -- except the quick-release
piece. This is a steel piece with brass strips which engage the threads of
the
vise screw, and the brass is very worn. The vise tends to lose its grip.
Any ideas or information?
thanks.
Larry Mamlet
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 5:14 PM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Parts for a venerable Columbian vise
Larry Mamlet wrote:
>
> I have a grand old vise marked "Columbian Vise Co. Cleveland, Ohio A-13-1."
>
> The screw and all other parts are in excellent condition -- even though the
> vise was apparently soaked during Noah's flood -- except the quick-release
> piece. This is a steel piece with brass strips which engage the threads of
> the
> vise screw, and the brass is very worn. The vise tends to lose its grip.
>
> Any ideas or information?
>
> thanks.
>
> Larry Mamlet
The "Cooper Group" were/are the Company owners.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Larry Mamlet
Subject: Re: Parts for a venerable Columbian vise
Any reasonably good machine shop can replace the brass
inserts. Let your fingers do the walking through the yellow
pages. The price will be well below the cost of a new vice,
or a used one for that matter.
10Q,
Moose
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:27 PM
To: TheOak
Subject: Pet Door
This may be a little off subject, but I'm wondering if any of you have
made a pet door. I see a lot of them for sale, but would like to make
my own and if there are any of you with experience in making one I'd
like to hear about it before starting my own project.
Mack Neff
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 8:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: pictures of my work
Hiya folks-
Here are two pictures of what I'm working on. Hope you can handle JPEG
pictures.
This is my kitchen. Making cherry frames with birdseye-maple raised panel
doors and ends. So far, the carcases are all finished and installed,
complete with countertops (granite). Next the doors, drawers, end panels.
Due to space considerations, and needs of operating the kitchen, I couldn't
put the doors on before getting the cabinets installed.
Another few centuries and I'll have it completed.
Bob Chapman
From: Kip Yeager [kip at theoak.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pictures of my work
Don quoted from this list's guideline page which can be found at
http://theoak.com/mdomo.html. EVERYONE should take the time to **scour**
the page for information concerning this list!!!!! You can find
instructions on how to unsubscribe too!
***
After hovering around 500 members for ages, this list has suddenly hit the
570 member mark! I suggest we all be a bit patient. I welcome our new
members and PLEASE visit this list's information page at
http://theoak.com/mdomo.html???
Sending 61K of graphics to each member of this list meant that my server
was required to send out more than 37 megabytes of graphics to our list
members. The proper way to share your work with our list members would have
been to upload your graphic files to your own server/ISP and to include the
URL to your graphics in your post to the list. NEVER send a graphic
attachment to the list!!!
Thanks,
Kip
ps. Just to get ahead of myself... Visit http://theoak.com/roundup. This is
my attempt to update the old FTP Site and it includes all of the original
contributions. It is a site where all of our members can share their
accomplishments with the rest of us and I hope to recruit someone who can
help me maintain the site. I still have a lot of work to do but let me know
what you think!! I kind of like the "Woodworker's Roundup" idea!!
The Oak Factory Woodworker's Mailing List
http://theoak.com http://theoak.com/mdomo.html
Kip Yeager Groves, Texas USA 409-962-1514
From: William K. Marshall [chip2 at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:06 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: PL glue
Hey Folks,
I am currently experimenting with my router and trying to figure out how to
get straight cuts with my circular saw, so I built a cutting board and now I
am building a box. (Just a box, no frills.) On a lark I bought some of that
PL polyurethane wood glue from HD yesterday. I used Tidebond for the
cutting board and really liked it. No muss, no fuss. I used the PL on the
box and it bubbles. It lays on flat but, after an hour, it bubbles up from
the joints. It seems to hold tight enough, but I guess it should only be
used where there is no chance of anyone seeing it. I also screwed up this
antique clock I'm restoring with using the PL. (There, I've confessed) I
don't know. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly. I know that polyurethane
bubbles if you are not careful, but never to this extent. In the
meantime...it's me, the clock and the Dremel tool for the rest of the night.
Any of you have any similar experiences using this stuff?
Chip
William K. Marshall
chip2 at home.com
From: William K. Marshall [chip2 at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 1:37 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: re:PL Glue
Folks,
Read Gerald's attachment from his last about the PL Glue. It turns out to
be a case of operator error, apparently. Thanks for the responses!
Chip
William K. Marshall
chip2 at home.com
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 11:01 AM
To: William K. Marshall; Woodworking
Subject: Re: PL glue
Yes, and I use Poly almost all the time. I prefer it to
most glues available, and for almost every joint.
The squeeze-out trims off neatly with a sharp chisel or
knife, and it doesn't clog the sand paper like other glues.
Apply the Poly to only one side of the joint. If the wood
is very dry, slightly moisten the other side of the joint
with a quick swipe with a damp cloth.
10Q,
Moose
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action. -
Johann Wolfgang Goethe (1749-1832)
-----Original Message-----
From: William K. Marshall <chip2 at home.com>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 09:25 PM
Subject: PL glue
>Hey Folks,
>
> I am currently experimenting with my router and trying to
figure out how to
>get straight cuts with my circular saw, so I built a
cutting board and now I
>am building a box. (Just a box, no frills.) On a lark I
bought some of that
>PL polyurethane wood glue from HD yesterday. I used
Tidebond for the
>cutting board and really liked it. No muss, no fuss. I
used the PL on the
>box and it bubbles. It lays on flat but, after an hour, it
bubbles up from
>the joints. It seems to hold tight enough, but I guess it
should only be
>used where there is no chance of anyone seeing it. I also
screwed up this
>antique clock I'm restoring with using the PL. (There,
I've confessed) I
>don't know. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly. I know that
polyurethane
>bubbles if you are not careful, but never to this extent.
In the
>meantime...it's me, the clock and the Dremel tool for the
rest of the night.
>
>Any of you have any similar experiences using this stuff?
>
>Chip
>
>William K. Marshall
>chip2 at home.com
>
>
From: Paul Warner [pjwarner at erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:13 PM
To: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Planing chess board
Hi
I'm working on a chess board as a xmas gift and just finished gluing up
the strips to
form the top (each square now has glued edge). Will using the planer to
bring the top from 5/8 to 1/2 (taking very light passes) destroy the
board ? (chipout, etc).
Wishing I had a perforax sander...
Paul
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:47 PM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
Paul,
No doubt each squares grain is running in the same direction. But it
still would be at great risk to do so. It just depends upon whether you
are willing to take that risk or not. I know I wouldn't.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 8:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
In a message dated 12/10/98 10:08:25 AM, jamesmcm at mail2.nai.net writes:
<<if you have a lathe a cylinder of wood with sandpaper glued to it can be
used.
the shopsmith with its table is ideal for this>>
I would second this suggestion. I have done some very extensive sanding using
this set�up on a Shopsmith. I also used a wooden cylinder, but I believe there
are some inflatable cylinders available somewhere for this purpose. A dust
collector with a hose end in back of the work is absolutely essential, it
produces lots of fine dust. I did not use glued�on sandpaper, but a slot with
a wooden insert held by screws. If done properly the transition causes no
problems. Ideally a Velcro attachment would make sense.
Lee Harper
From: jamesmcm at mail2.nai.net
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 6:22 AM
To: Paul Warner; The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
if you have a lathe a cylinder of wood with sandpaper glued to it can be used.
the shopsmith with its table is ideal for this but any lathe with a table
clamped in place could work the table has to be parallel to cylinder and
adjustable, light passes, hand fed against rotation, don't let go, or it
will become a projectile. i inherited this setup with a shopsmith 20 years
ago and used it many times, for dimension sanding of small puzzle parts
(chinese puzzles)
james
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:18 AM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
To try to answer your question, a planer is an
excellent tool to get the top flat, provided that the
squares are not grain end (I don't see why they would
be....). I've used that technique with cutting boards.
I understand that chess boards can be difficult
because of expansion and contraction of the squares. (That
they can break apart with time and moisture changes.) That
the grain has to be in the right direction or something.
Did you take this into consideration, and if so, should all
the grain run the same way, alternate directions
square-to-square, alternate by strips, or what?.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 10:54 AM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
Paul,
I suggest that you power plane the chess board on the back
side. If you do get some chips kicked out it wont be a
total disaster. Then simply sand the top side for a good
finish.
It would be a good idea to glue sacrificial pieces to the
edges of the board to prevent chips that may go all the way
through, and to absorb any snipe you planer may be subject
to. The sacrificials can be cut away on the table saw, hand
planed off, or sanded off.
If the grain is not all in alignment, feed the piece into
the planer at a slight angle. This will also reduce the
chance of chipout.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
>Paul Warner wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I'm working on a chess board as a xmas gift and just
finished gluing up
>> the strips to
>> form the top (each square now has glued edge). Will
using the planer to
>> bring the top from 5/8 to 1/2 (taking very light passes)
destroy the
>> board ? (chipout, etc).
>>
>> Wishing I had a perforax sander...
>>
>> Paul
>
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:00 PM
To: pjwarner at erols.com; bgowens at home.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
Ok, I've been waiting for an answer on this one, so I'll ask more directly:
When making a chess board (I'll be making one this spring, I think) what is
the suggested way to orient the squares when gluing up?
Cross grain, that is, dark wood perpendicular to light wood, would give even
more contrast to the squares, but could give more difficulty, obviously,
when planing, but each glue joint would be long grain to short grain, thus
maybe less likely (than below) to split.
If the grain directions for the dark wood and light wood are parallel, 1/2
of the glue joints are long grain to long grain, but the other half is
short-to-short grain. Seems more likely to split on the short-to-short
joint.
So, which is it? Or, is the answer to use biscuits or splines and then it
is my choice?
As Bruce hinted at below, anybody ever make one "end grain" up? Seems like
glue up would be a long-to-long grain at every joint. Maybe not a bad
idea!! And, end grain of dark woods get darker with just about any given
finish too....
And, (I'm embarrased because I DO know how to play chess), what's the rule
of thumb to remember how to orient the board when setting up the chess
pieces?
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: bgowens at home.com
To: pjwarner at erols.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
Date: December 10, 1998 4:00PM
> I understand that chess boards can be difficult
because of expansion and contraction of the squares. (That
they can break apart with time and moisture changes.) That
the grain has to be in the right direction or something.
>Did you take this into consideration, and if so, should all
the grain run the same way, alternate directions
square-to-square, alternate by strips, or what?.
Paul Warner wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I'm working on a chess board as a xmas gift and just finished gluing up
> the strips to
> form the top (each square now has glued edge). Will using the planer to
> bring the top from 5/8 to 1/2 (taking very light passes) destroy the
> board ? (chipout, etc).
>
> Wishing I had a perforax sander...
>
> Paul
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 4:27 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: pjwarner at erols.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Planing chess board
Although you have not answered any of my questions, I'll
answer the easiest of yours. The square on the right corner
as each player looks at the set-up is supposed to be white
("white" is a chess convention for the lighter color). In
the bar where I play chess (just came from winning two and
losing one) the el-cheapo set was made wrong, so that the
crease in the board (where it folds) does not separate the
center between colors. Leads to all kinds of arguments.
The white-on-the-right is really a convention that has
little effect on play, unless you are such a master that you
don't look at the rest of the board when you move.
From: GAIL ABERNATHY [XHZM96B at prodigy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:01 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Plans for a roll top desk
I am looking for good plans for a roll top desk. I have seen new
roll top desks in stores that are made to accomidate computers but
still have the same old style roll top features. I want a full size
desk not a scaled down version and preferably plans that have more
instructions to them than just a blue print. Please e-mail me if you
know where I can find plans like this. Thank you. Mike.
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 10:50 AM
To: 'XHZM96B at prodigy.com'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Plans for a roll top desk
http://www.discount-books.com/officepl.htm
has quite a few plans available.
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:55 AM
To: GAIL ABERNATHY; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plans for a roll top desk
Norm did a roll top desk on the New Yankey Worshop last year.
They sell plans and a video of the project.
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:11 PM
To: GAIL ABERNATHY; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plans for a roll top desk
At 12:00 PM 1/6/99 -0500, GAIL ABERNATHY wrote:
>I am looking for good plans for a roll top desk. I have seen new
>roll top desks in stores that are made to accomidate computers but
>still have the same old style roll top features. I want a full size
>desk not a scaled down version and preferably plans that have more
>instructions to them than just a blue print. Please e-mail me if you
>know where I can find plans like this. Thank you. Mike.
Norm's next project on our NJ PBS is a roll top desk. It is so difficult
it will take two half hour shows! Must be real tough ;-)
This group of shows are reruns. Suggest you check out the New Yankee web
site - http://www.wgbh.org/wgbh/tv/nyw/. Plans are available. NOt free
though!
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:39 PM
To: XHZM96B at prodigy.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plans for a roll top desk
Mike writes...
"I am looking for good plans for a roll top desk..... and preferably plans
that have more
instructions to them than just a blue print. "
This should really open up a can of worms but here it goes. Norm is building
a roll top desk over the next two episodes, at least that is the schedule here
in Rochester, NY. I know that some of the "lifers" who do this for a living
and not for fun really criticize the New Yankee Workshop but their plans are
generally good and provide information regarding sourcing hardware, etc. I've
made a router table from their plans with quite a lot of customization but
their plans were the basis of my design. If you can't catch the show you can
always contact the New Yankee Workshop or check out your local PBS web site.
Good Wwking,
Chuck.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:15 PM
To: GAIL ABERNATHY
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plans for a roll top desk
> At 12:00 PM 1/6/99 -0500, GAIL ABERNATHY wrote:
> >I am looking for good plans for a roll top desk. I have seen new
> >roll top desks in stores that are made to accomidate computers but
> >still have the same old style roll top features. I want a full size
> >desk not a scaled down version and preferably plans that have more
> >instructions to them than just a blue print. Please e-mail me if you
> >know where I can find plans like this. Thank you. Mike.
Mike,
These, http://swivel-chair-parts.com/RolltopDesk/ are not the plans you
asked for, just 3 photos of the most beautiful quartered White Oak
Rolltop Desk I've come across.
Too bad plans for items of this quality are not readily available. Note
the unusual overall shape in the "Side" photo.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 5:30 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: plans for birdhouse
Gary, You can try out these sites - they may have just what you're after.
http://www.npsc.nbs.gov/resource/tools/ndblinds/ndblinds.htm
http://www.sears.com/craftsman/shoptalk/wldbrd/index.htm
http://www.sears.com/craftsman/shoptalk/brdplns.htm
http://www.state.mo.us/conservation/nathis/woodwork/
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Cavener <gcavener at teleport.com>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 3:51 PM
Subject: plans for birdhouse
>Keith and all others,
>
>SWMBO suggests I build a couple of birdhouses as Christmas gifts to our
>parents, who have everything they really need already. Her folks live in
>Roseburg, OR, which is fairly typical Western Oregon country - moderate
>temperatures and moderate precipitation. My folks farm a few miles south
of
>Klamath Falls, OR, which is high, semi-arid plateau. Most precip is in
>winter, and is snow. Different kinds of birds.
>
>I'm not looking for cute as much as I'm wanting to build houses that birds
>will live happily and well in. Where do I look for the style, shape, size
>of hole, type of perch, etc.?
>
>TIA
>
>Gary Cavener
>
>"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
>have, nor do they deserve, either one."
>-- Thomas Jefferson
>
>
From: Stacy W. Boncheff [bonch at ipa.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 6:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Plans for Butcher Block Table
I am looking for some plans for a butcher block table to build for my
mother-in-law for Christmas. She wants something about 3-4 foot in length.
I would like to have something with drawers and door storage if possible.
Please let me know if you have such a plan or have seen anything similar.
Thank you,
Stacy
From: Lori Henderson [lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:22 AM
To: Stacy W. Boncheff
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Butcher Block Table
Hi, Stacey
"Build Your Harvest Kitchen", Rodale Press, 1980, ISBN 0-87857-316-X has
plans for a 3' table. Their model has a shelf under, but it could be
modified. The book also has plans for a variety of cabinets ... a base
cabinet with drawers and doors could have a butcher block top.
Regards,
Lori
From: Mein Name [JosefSeidl at t-online.de]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:24 PM
To: The oak mail list
Subject: Plans/Ideas for wooden toys
Christmas is coming - several nieces/nephews waiting for gifts - and some time to spend in the shop ... Do you know of any Internet sources for ideas/plans on wooden toys - ideally for free, because mail-ordering across the big pond (from North America to Europe is not something I think I want to get into ..
Any sugegstions??
Regards
Josef H. Seidl
Kn�llwald, Germany
JosefSeidl at t-online.de
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 3:49 PM
To: The oak mail list; Mein Name
Subject: Re: Plans/Ideas for wooden toys
Here you go Josef, its nothing special but it is free!
http://www.stevproj.com/WrapOn.html
Seasons greetings from Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Canada.
----------
From: Mein Name <JosefSeidl at t-online.de>
To: The oak mail list <woodworking at theoak.com>
Subject: Plans/Ideas for wooden toys
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 3:23 PM
Christmas is coming - several nieces/nephews waiting for gifts - and
some time to spend in the shop ... Do you know of any Internet
sources for ideas/plans on wooden toys - ideally for free, because
mail-ordering across the big pond (from North America to Europe is
not something I think I want to get into ..
Any sugegstions??
Regards
Josef H. Seidl
Kn�llwald, Germany
JosefSeidl at t-online.de
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 4:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: plastic better than wax
Next time you are at the supermarket, specifiy
"plastic" to that common question. Those bags work quite
well to separate the iron of the pipe or bar clamps from the
tannin in the wood. No more black stains.
And they are easier to handle than waxed paper, and
cheaper.
From: Sharon Bannister (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Play Structor Plans
Good Morning Grant,
You might try checking out this site along with the links that it send you
too. Some plans here. There are speveral places that you can order
catalogs from here. That's where I'd start.
http://www.world-playground.com/
You could also go to the local Ace Hardware or comparable place that sells
them and flip through their sales book to get ideas.
Have fun,
Sharon
G.K.Engelstad wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am looking for playground play structor plans. If anyone has seen
> some please post or e-mail me direct. Our local comminitty playground
> has just undergone a Safety Inspection and failed. So, out with the old
> and in with the new. However the cost of factory made structors are
> unbelievable and with the great team of volunteers we have building one
> from treated lumber etc. has to be cheaper. The only ingreedient missing
> is the plans.........a point in any direction would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance........
> --
> G.K.(Grant)Engelstad
> Engelstad Enterprises
> Custom Woodworking
> E-mail - harley at sk.sympatico.ca
> Web Site - http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/harley
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 8:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Plywood types
I just read Rick Christopherson's article on plywood types on his
website (http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/), and had a question.
I've seen Uncle Norm use a plywood that I believe he referred to as
MDO. But I don't think it matches up with Rick's description of MDO.
Norm's stuff was basically regular ply surfaced on both sides with what
appears to be kraft paper. What is the correct name for this type of
plywood, or does the MDO moniker apply to this also?
Zane Harris
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 9:02 PM
To: kayak at one.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Plywood types
Zane,
Around these parts, most sign painters use what they call MDO, or medium
density overlay, to paint signs on. It has a stable and very flat surface.
It isn't kraft paper, but something like MDF. I'm not saying it's MDF,
because it seems to me like it is a little harder. Here, the internal plies
are Douglas Fir. Anyway, it is called MDO in the Portland, OR area. Didja
ever notice that wood products tend to be called by a zillion different
names, depending on where you are?
Gary Cavener
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 5:11 AM
To: kayak at one.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plywood types
MDO is as you stated.A veneer plywood core covered with a kraft paper.
Some call is sign board because of it's main use.It is also more
expensive than oak veneer plywood in this area.
Mike Bridges
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 6:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Plywood types
>I just read Rick Christopherson's article on plywood types on his
>website (http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/), and had a question.
>I've seen Uncle Norm use a plywood that I believe he referred to as
>MDO. But I don't think it matches up with Rick's description of MDO.
>Norm's stuff was basically regular ply surfaced on both sides with what
>appears to be kraft paper. What is the correct name for this type of
>plywood, or does the MDO moniker apply to this also?
>Zane Harris
There is a glossary of terms on the APA site that may come in handy.
http://www.lumber.com/panel/APAPlywoodGlossary.html
There's also a brief write up at this link.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wood_international_agency/mdosignb.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Joe Ruthenberg [jruthenberg at dytn.veridian.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 12:23 PM
To: Woodworking at The Oak
Subject: Pneumatic tool question
Hey all, I've got a small question. I just converted all of my air lines
from the old style to nylon coil lines. My question is this: I seem to
recall a product called "dynabraid" or something that was a short length of
reinforced line that hung off your nailer (or whatever), giving you about a
12" or so length of space in between your tool and those annoying coil lines
that always seem to get in your way.
Anyone heard of this? Anyone know where I can get one?
Cheers,
Joe Ruthenberg
NDE Developmental Engineer
Veridian Engineering
Vox: (937)476-2845
Fax:(937)476-2888
e-mail: jruthenberg at dytn.veridian.com
http://www.veridian.com
From: bill locke [blocke at tmisnet.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:01 PM
To: Joe Ruthenberg; oak
Subject: Re: Pneumatic tool question
Joe,
I believe they are called "whip" hoses and come in various lengths, but are generally about 3' long and a ball swivel connection at one end. I certainly agree with how annoying coiled hoses are to use unless they are exactly above where they are used. I think I got my extensions at Harbor Freight, but it was several years ago.
Bill in San Diego
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:33 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Pocket screw joints
When I was much, much younger, I experienced several failures of dovetailed
drawers on furniture. Since then (since really getting into woodworking) I
have isolated the cause of the failures I have seen. It would seem that some
enterprising soul had decided that these drawers must be made quite poorly
since, at various times, the drawer bottoms would move around and
occaisionally rattle. My, my we should "fix that"........the rest is
history. DAMHIKT.
I honestly can't see some of these "new fangled" joinery techniques lasting
long enough for something to be "heirloom".
Jim W.
In the heart of the butt joint/brad nailer capitol of the western world.
mechanic at agt.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:01 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
Have you ever read a magazine's tool test or product review and
wondered. "why didn't they compare xxx feature? How could they miss
something which I find so important?" Here's your chance to have some
input into what is looked at, and how. I have about 20 different
biscuit joiners sitting in my office to examine and compare. What I am
wondering, is what do other woodworkers look for as being important
features? As an engineer, I may be looking at this tool in a different
light than others, and so I wanted to try to get a whole picture view on
the subject.
I am wondering if some of the things I am looking at are unimportant to
the average woodworker, or if I may be overlooking something else. I am
writing this from home, so I don't have my listing of criteria in front
of me, and am just "winging it" to the best of my poor memory. These
items are not in order of importance or any thing else, just off the
cuff:
* Arbor run out (leading to an oversized slot...bad for alignment)
* Carbide thickness (also leading to an improper slot size)
* Dust collection
* Vacuum attachments
* Fence adjustment (angles, parallelism, ease of changeout if needed)
* Ergonomics...Does it feel good? Some brands have both D-handle and
in-line.
* Trigger placement. One popular brand has a poor trigger lock, etc.
* Climbing or walking. Do the skids or pins keep the joiner in place as
the cutter enters?
* Price
* Construction quality (fit and finish)
* Fence depth setting repeatability (another alignment issue)
* Ease of changing cutter depth for # 0,10,20 biscuits.
* Ease of replacing cutter blade for "detail" sized biscuits or
sharpening.(some joiners will permit the small cutter size needed for
these ultra small biscuits)
* Carrying case. Some are huge and bulky, one is too small for the
joiner itself, some would break on impact, etc.
* Noise levels from the motor.
* Motor power.
* General maintenance and adjustment.
Again, I am just listing these off the top of my head while I type. I
would like to know if any of these are things you really don't care
about, or if there are more items which I missed. I will have a full
panel of testers looking at these items, and should get some last minute
ideas from them too, but I want to enter into this with a strong
game-plan.
Furthermore, if you are in the Twin Cities and would like to spend the
day playing around with a bunch of biscuit joiners, I need to assemble a
panel of woodworkers to examine the non-scientific parts of this test
(i.e. feel, use, etc.) I am looking for the "greenhorn" through expert
user. The measurable-type tests such as arbor runout would not be
completed by this panel, but this would include the day-to-day type
observations.
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:38 AM
To: Rick Christopherson; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
I've used only one biscuit cutter (DeWALT) at a friend's shop.
I haven't bought one yet. I was warned that I had to be really
careful and hold the part that sets on the piece to be
jointed really tight with one hand and make sure the motor
had no vertical strain on it when the plunge is made.
The reason given was that you could get a cut that was not
parallel. I did notice that while holding the to the
stationary
part that there was a little vertical rotation of the motor
section.
I am new to biscuit cutting and have not read any
documentation
on the use of the DeWALT or any other cutter. If the above
procedure is documented for all cutters, then fine, otherwise,
I think it would be nice to know how critical the holding of
the cutter is when making the plunge with the other cutters.
geo
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
Noise good
Ease of parallel cuts important
Changing angles unimportant
Dust collection self contained good
Switch hard on easy off good
Markings where the cut will be good
Ease of biscuit size change unimportant
Different blades unimportant
Height adjustment unimportant
Fence stability important
Weight and balance important
Color unimportant
In-line important
Case OK
What follows is long and opinionated. Read at your own risk.
Typically I want to put a biscuit in the middle of the stock thickness.
Wouldn't it be nice if I had a jointer that permitted me to squeeze a trigger
that clamped the jointer on the stock centering the blade and plunging the
cutter all in one stroke.
I don't know why but I see the biscuit cutter as one of the most dangerous tools
in my shop. The fact is that it is probably one of the safest but the noise,
aggressive look of the blade, and the fact that it hides like a snapping turtle
might have something to do with my feeling.
Noise is a good thing as the tool is used for short bursts for a limited amount
of time. The noise reminds me that it is on and to turn it off.
The ability to hold the jointer parallel to the workpiece is important. The
clamp thing would go a long way to making this happen.
Changing the angle of the fence is almost useless. 95% of the cuts I have made
are straight on. 2% 45 2% without a fence 1% some angle.
Dust collection is a blessing. I like not having to hook a vacuum to the
jointer. If 90% of the chips and dust were not collected in an easily emptied
bag I would consider a different jointer. If I had to hook up a vacuum to the
jointer to effectively collect chips and dust I would use it a lot less.
The switch should be harder to turn on than to turn off. This could be more
force required. I would much rather the jointer turn off by accident than to
turn on by accident. The switch to turn off the jointer should be in a place
that can easily be found by a finger or thumb while operating the jointer. This
is very important and an attempt to make the switch easy for both righty and
leftys to use that was more difficult than a right only switch would be a reason
to look for a different jointer.
Clear marking of the center of the cut. If there was not a marking I would put
one on the jointer (scratch, paint, tape).
Marking of the edges of the cut. Again if not on the jointer I would make them
at least for #20s.
Almost all of my cut are for #20 biscuits. It is easy for me to change sizes on
my jointer but I find little use for it. Changing biscuit size (depth of cut)
would not be a deciding factor in a jointer purchase for me.
If I wanted to use the tiny biscuits I would much rather dedicate a jointer to
that use than to switch out blades.
How long it takes to adjust the fence is of little importance. I set the fence
and make 20 to 100 cuts. If fact 70% of the cuts I have made are in 4/4 stock.
Maybe a 4/4 stock detent for the fence would be nice. I wouldn't select one
jointer over another because of it. It is more important that the fence stays
where it is set than for the fence be easy to reset. The markings for depth on
the fence are of little use as the final adjustment is done with a test cut.
Weight and balance. The jointer should be balance in the hand. It should also
lay flat when not in use so when you set it down you know it will stay put. It
should be light enough to use but heavy enough to aid in control.
My Jointer has a D handle but I always grip it by the barrel. The D handle is
used exclusively for transporting the tool. If it didn't have the D handle I
wouldn'r miss it.
The tool should be robust enough not to need a case. The only items I should
need to bring with my jointer are biscuits and glue. I also need clamps but a
case that held clamps, glue, biscuits and the jointer would get in the way. A
case that held a pint of glue, 100 biscuits and the jointer might get some use.
Square flat cases are much better than the rounded molded plastic ones because
you can set them securely on side, end or bottom, you can also stack things on
the square flat cases.
Please remember that testing for usability is much more useful than the
measurement tests you will be doing. The measurement test have more to do with
a particular copy of a jointer than with a model. If you took measurements on
20 jointers of the same model then the measurements would hold some weight. How
you turn on and off the jointer, how well it collects chips, how easy it is to
position on the mark you have made on the board would be evident in any copy of
a model.
Thanks
Richard
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:47 AM
To: Rick Christopherson; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
Howdy Rick
I've had only a few opportunities to try out biscuit joiners and was
impressed enough with them to have them high on my requirement list but my
experiences haven't been extensive enough to answer a question that arises
from my use of any number of doweling jigs though your first bullet may be
the one that answers that.
Let's suppose, for the sake of my question, I was making up a, or several,
large glued up panel and wanted to use biscuits. What biscuits joiner or
joiners will consistently and easily (a minimum of fussing) give me a panel
where the surface is actually flat with no boards raised above the other or
at least minimally.
The above, of course, supposes properly milled wood and reasonable care
taken in setting up the clamps and such.
It is, I admit, probably a non question to users of biscuit joiners and
maybe they all are capable of it, but, after years of reading such promises
for various doweling jigs and not getting the results it is a question I
would like to see answered.
From: Joe Ruthenberg [jruthenberg at dytn.veridian.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:26 AM
To: RLA
Cc: Woodworking at The Oak
Subject: RE: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
-----Original Message-----
From: RLA [mailto:RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Poll: Biscuit Joiners
> Long rant deleted....
I use my biscuit joiner constantly. For the record, I have a Freud JS100.
I would like to add my two cents to the biscuit joiner discussion here. My
biggest complaint with my Freud is the lack of a secure grip on the
workpiece. I have a constant problem with the tool wanting to walk when I
plunge it into a workpiece. Highly annoying.
If my dream world, my fence would also be easier to remove. I make a lot of
cuts for shelves in cabinets, and have to remove my fence to make these
cuts. Although they're for only about 10% of the cuts I make, I can still
wish for it.
My only other issue for biscuit joiners in general concerns the dust
collection. I can make about 15 or 20 cuts (with #20s) before my bag fills
up. I realize I should probably rig some kind of permanent dust collector
fixture, but I find it gets in the way more than it helps. Any ideas? Maybe
a system like the Fein RO Sander?
I also agree with Richard on the subject of fences: for me, anything other
than 0 degrees is useless. I can make 45s, but don't ever see myself doing
so. This is definitely an outgrowth of my not using stave construction. All
I really care about is how parallel the fence is to the blade.
As an aside, how important is accuracy in a plate joiner? I find not very,
and like the fact that the joints are a little "sloppy", so that I can make
adjustments for fit. YMMV.
Cheers,
Joe Ruthenberg
220 Project Manager
Veridian Engineering
VOX: (937)476-2845
FAX: (937)476-2888
http://www.veridian.com
The RDT&E leader
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 5:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Polyester Resin
Hi folks,
I may be wrong, but I recall applying fiberglass to an old wooden boat
about 25 years ago and choosing polyester resin over epoxy because it
was about 1/2 the price and had comparable performance. It worked very
well. Could be that is what the customer in the OSB thread was talking
about.
Gerald
From: Michael D Retter [mretter at ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 2:26 AM
To: mltovar at ntr.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Polyurethane
Marc
I am, of course, dealing with Australian stuff here, but am sure that the
same is the case in the North America.
Polyurethane is available in the 'corner handyman' store usually as a
single can - that means that it is ready to apply, whether it be brush,
roller, spray etc.
The same stuff, polyurethane, is also used, mostly in the 'trade' I
suspect, in the 2-pack form. This means that there is the can of the
Polyurethane and a second smaller can of the hardener.
The main difference I understand is that the single pack is known as
pre-catalysed polyurethane.
The two pack stuff has a limited pot life after mixing, dependant upon
temperature mostly I expect. It is messier to use in that there is the
measuring/mixing containers, and the applicators to wash up after,
requiring considerable use of the solvent. It is also known to be more
carcinogenic.
The plus side of the two pack is that it is much tougher and harder.
I use it with a roller because it is quick, and I can get very high build
up. I will not spray the stuff as I do not wish to give my family, other
creatures etc, the benefits it passes.
My finishing coat is the somewhat less hazardous pre-catalysed poly (single
pack), and I am having good results.
As usual, a rather long-winded answer.
Mike
mretter at ozemail.com.au
Try <http://www.artmarquetry.com/gallery/mretter/mr.html>
From: bill locke [blocke at tmisnet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:55 AM
To: oak
Subject: polyurethane finish
Hi All,
While reading a recent thread on finishing it was mentioned that many
furniture manufacturers spray a mixture of lacquer and stain. This
obscures the lack of grain matching and solves much of the end grain
problems. I am wondering if I can mix water based stains and water
based polyurethane and spray if successfully with HVLP. What I really
have in mind is spraying it on pine products. I have had lousy success
with pine staining including gel stains and the use of a pre-stain
conditioner. It is still blotchy. Anything that I make from pine or
fir plywood I now regard as a "paint it" product. I like the idea of
water based because of the low fire hazard and the mist being heavier,
doesn't travel as far. This would also eliminate the need for a proper
spray booth. Has anyone tried this or wish to comment on it's
feasibility?
TIA
Bill in San Diego
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 12:45 PM
To: blocke at tmisnet.com
Cc: oak
Subject: Re: polyurethane finish
Bill,
I read that thread too, and it contained mis-information. I personally
felt the writer was basing his thoughts on assumption or repeated
someone elses wrong statement and/or had twisted it somewhat. Not being
one to contradict on this list...I simply let it pass. Now that you've
picked up on it, I feel bound to say something on this matter.
Only the lowest priced Furniture mfrs will mix stains with topcoatings.
There is exception to that, but it is with "trouble" woods. (mfrs. have
special end/fill coating materials depending upon the look they want to
achieve, the specie, the color and if it is "engineered" (eg MDF) wood
or not.) Most mfrs of wood furniture will "build" a finish. These build
finishes could take as few as 4-5 steps to double that quantity.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:59 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
Don, you inspire responses. I laid back because I felt sure that Chuck
Ring would provide an authoritative response. Since he didn't, let me
respond based on my limited experience.
I use polyurethane glue for outdoor projects and indoor ones that will
be exposed to moisture, like cutting boards. My experience base is only
15 months old, but I've seen no failures. The squeeze out foams as you
noted, but polyurethane is not a gap filling glue. The joint must be
just as tight as if you were using yellow glue. You apparently saw
foaming in the joint. Let me speculate.
The person who did the repair didn't make a clean, tight fitting joint
before glueing. That allowed the adhesive to expand and foam inside the
joint, and the foam isn't very strong. Chuck has done extensive
testing, and a joint made with polyurethane glue is stronger than the
wood itself. Nothing I have experienced contradicts that statement.
Regards, and waiting for Chuck Ring's response.
Gerald
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:44 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
Hi, Don:
Actually, I didn't respond because I thought Mike covered it pretty
well, and I kept expecting to see a definitive answer from Chuck. <g>
I haven't used a lot of poly glue, but the times I have it has worked
well for me. It does foam out, but the foam is much easier to remove
than PVA or aliphatic resin glue that has been allowed to fully cure.
(I know, you're not supposed to let it fully cure before you remove
it.) The poly glue squeeze out is very much like that foam insulation
you buy in cans and squirt into the gaps around windows and doors. I
always said that stuff would make great glue after trying to clean it
off my shoe the first time I used it. <g>
Bob Hamilton
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 8:39 PM
To: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
-----Original Message-----
From: bobham <bobham at xcelco.on.ca>
The poly glue squeeze out is very much like that foam insulation
>you buy in cans and squirt into the gaps around windows and doors. I
>always said that stuff would make great glue after trying to clean it
>off my shoe the first time I used it. <g>
I can assure you it has very good adhesion. I sprayed that stuff around
each of the window frames when I built my house (1987) to close any gaps
that might not be filled with regular fiberglass. A couple of years ago, I
decided that one of those big windows would make a nice doorway into a new
sun room addition. The only way I could separate the window from the
surrounding 2X6 was with a sawzall.
Mack
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 8:09 PM
To: Gerald Mayer
Cc: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
I'll admit Gerald, I've always heard that it WAS a gap filling glue. Is
Bob Hamilton and now Mack Neff are saying it is gap filling? Or just
that it can be used *like* a gap filler? but not talking about joinery,
just filling gaps where strength is not needed or expected.
As I just wrote Bob Hamilton, what about it's elasticity when cured?
Anyone know?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:10 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
Hi, Don:
The poly glue will fill a gap, meaning that there will be foam
material in a space that didn't have anything there before, but it
will not add much to structural strength in a badly fitting joint.
The glue line in a properly fitted joint does not foam, and I have
never noticed any elasticity between pieces joined with it. I have
wondered whether an unclamped joint, like a rubbed joint using normal
glue, would push itself apart and foam. In other words, is it only
the clamp pressure that prevents it from foaming? How badly does it
want to foam? How much pressure does the foam exert trying to push
the joint apart as it cures? I know that the foam insulation or
caulking products can and do exert enough pressure around a window or
door frame to distort the frame and even break the window if the joint
is overfilled and the excess not allowed to escape. Is there any
danger of this type of thing happening with poly glue?
Where is Chuck, anyway? <g>
Bob Hamilton
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Polyurethane Glue (adhesive)
Don and others,
About 9 months ago I began using Gorilla brand poly glue so I can't speak
for the other brands but I imagine the characteristics are the same. What
you read here are my findings - YMMV
1. One of it's better attributes is that it's totally waterproof once it's
cured - I find it odd where a glue that cures with moisture will be
waterproof - so it makes a good choice for exterior applications.
2. Depending upon the MC of the wood, one side can be brushed with water
and the glue applied on the dry side. If you wish to speed up the process
of the curing, you can apply water anyway. I usually do this on whatever
project I'm working with.
3. It's gap filling properties are amazing because it can expand 3 to 4
times as it cures, that is to say in a situation where the glue is allowed
to expand. However, in clamps, the glue will not expand that much between
the joints because it can't but outside the joint it will.
4. Strength. I can't say where it lies with regard to resorcinol and the
epoxies, but it's the strongest I've ever dealt with in wood glues. The
thing is, it's not solely a wood glue either.
5. Curing time. Unclamp in 30 minutes to use in non-pressure situations -
best left in clamps 24 hours. Clean up isn't all that different from PVA's.
6. Staining. Poly glue leaves a brown stain on your hands as you work
with it, not a problem, just looks ugly.
7. Spreadability. Poly goes further because you just put a thin line down
then when you bring the two pieces together, you move it around to help
spread it evenly . This is where a coating of water on one piece assists
you and the glue.
8. Working time is about the same as PVA's, however there is a shelf life
of around 6 months. They claim that if you squeeze the bottle to remove
the air then replace the cap, it'll last longer. I don't bother.
9. Price is twice as much as PVA types but it goes 3 times further.
10. Glue line is less visible than PVA's and once a finish is applied,
it's damn near not there.
11. You asked about flexibility. In it's foam state - unclamped expansion
- it is airy and flexible but hardly so once it's cured in clamps.
That's about it. I bet I haven't touched PVA twice since I started using
poly because I like it so much. Yes, I was skeptical, like you are, but do
like I did. Get yourself a bottle and practice on a couple of various
joints (water/no water, 30 min clamp/overnight clamp, etc) and see for
yourself. Then try it on a couple of projects and you'll be hooked.
Joe
Curiosity killed the cat...alright, for a while there I was a suspect
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Hugh Wood [woodsman at ameritech.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 11:33 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Portable bandmills
At 11:09 AM -0500 11/17/98, RANDY BODIN wrote:
>Portable bandmills which one is the best on the market?
I've looked at a lot of them and for the "higher end" models personally I
like the the ones made by Timber Harvester an Baker the best.
http://www.timberharvester.com/
http://www.baker-online.com/
>Also i`m thinking of starting my own bandmill lumberyard, any
>suggestions or comments welcomed, my location is central minnesota is
>this a wise choice?
>And how could i find out if there are any bandmills already in my area,
>and how much do they charge for milling a log.
Someone already mentioned calling Woodmizer and ask if they know of any
operators in your area, also have you checked the yellow pages, "free" type
papers and if you find any operators in your area just pretend you want
them cut up some logs for you and ask them how much they charge.
If you haven't subscribed already, a magazine you would probably find
usefull is the Independent Sawmill & Woodlot Mangement. It's geared toward
the small sawmill operator.
http://www.forestindustry.com/independentsawmill/
Hugh
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 9:31 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Porter Cable Paint Remover.
To All;
I saw a Porter Cable paint remover second hand in a bargain center
today. For those who have never seen one it is essentially a rotary
sander with guide feet on it so it does not go too deep. It is intended
for removing paint from shingles or bevel siding and nothing more. I
really wonder what it does to nail heads but that is not the reason for
the post. I wonder if it has a use in woodworking similar to a router
used to flatten the end of Graham's tree disc or someones bench top.
I am going to check out it's orig. price tomorrow vs its sale price of
$60 but I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on what it could be
used for. I really need another tool. <G>.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:56 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Porter Cable Paint Remover.
I have it and it works well for paint removal and to level wood floors
patch work. Price is 60 bucks Canadian - it's a very good buy.
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 8:58 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Porter Cable Paint Remover.
Harvey;
If this is the system that I am thinking of, essentially a diskgrinder
with attachments, heavy duty sander motor, etc., then I have one and
I hate the thing. New, they are about $165-170 US. Very heavy for
doing paint removal all day (DAMHIKT). The grinding plate gets gummed
up very fast, and if you have lead paint, its really a pain as it
spits the lead everywhere. Had mine for 3-4 years, have used it very
little, can't really see a lot of other use when there are other devices
to use that get a much better result.If you have the need for a very
heavy duty sander, you can get attachments that will work well for doing
that, but unless you are doing timber frame construction, don't see the
use for it.
To be honest, $60.00 makes more sense than the 100 more that I paid,
BUT, if I did it over again, I wouldn't pay the 60 either!
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Steve W [vistin at earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 3:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Pre stain sealer.
Steve Wrote;
I need info on stain sealers to seal the early grain and for soft woods
like pine n such.
Steve
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 4:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Pre stain sealer.
Do yourself a favor and buy: "Understanding Wood Finishing : How to Select
and Apply the Right Finish" by Bob Flexner.
Just to make it easy, here is the amazon.com listing:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875967345/o/qid=910569700/sr=2-1/002
-6979576-8891047
$19 delivered to your door, and packed with information on every aspect of
wood finishing.
John
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 6:01 AM
To: vistin at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Pre stain sealer.
Howdy Steve
a 1 LB cut of shellac or your ultimate finish cut 50% and as long as it
doesn't share the same thinner/solvent base as the stain, should do the job
nicely in most cases.From: jacklin & jerome [jhr at islandnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 11:10 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Prevent rust/shop heating
I have just finished building an expansion to my shop. It is basically
stud walls with osb plywood and siding for the walls. There is no
insulation or inside paneling. There is no ceiling, only the roof which at
the highest point is about 9 feet.The shop is 16' x 30'. My question is
what is the best way to prevent rust on my stationary tools such as
jointer, table saw and planer. Right now I either wipe on some paste wax
or spray WD 40 after I haved used them. Any other suggestions? I do plan
on heating the shop eventually. Which brings me to another question- Any
suggestions on the best way to heat a shop? I know that with no insulation
it will not be that efficient, but anything that will keep off the dampness
will help.
Thanks!
Jerome Rozitis
From: Paul Warner [pjwarner at erols.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 5:00 AM
To: jacklin & jerome
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Prevent rust/shop heating
You may want to look at a product from Boeshield called T-9; developed by
Boeing
to provent rust on aircraft parts.
jacklin & jerome wrote:
> I have just finished building an expansion to my shop. It is basically
> stud walls with osb plywood and siding for the walls. There is no
> insulation or inside paneling. There is no ceiling, only the roof which at
> the highest point is about 9 feet.The shop is 16' x 30'. My question is
> what is the best way to prevent rust on my stationary tools such as
> jointer, table saw and planer. Right now I either wipe on some paste wax
> or spray WD 40 after I haved used them. Any other suggestions? I do plan
> on heating the shop eventually. Which brings me to another question- Any
> suggestions on the best way to heat a shop? I know that with no insulation
> it will not be that efficient, but anything that will keep off the dampness
> will help.
> Thanks!
> Jerome Rozitis
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [steveb at spruce.sentrol.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:38 AM
To: Wood
Subject: RE: Prevent rust/shop heating
A simple 60W light bulb left on continuously is usually enough to raise
the temperature in the room such that it holds more water than the
outside air. Thus, you won't get condensation on your tools and
therefore no rust. You have to watch that bulb, though. I let mine
burn out and within 2 days I had rust. Refer to earlier posts on how to
make your bulbs last longer, or email me privately.
One other thing I found when I was moving: Don't sit a cardboard box on
your tablesaw. It was there for only a day and I had rust forming, and
this tablesaw always has a good coat of wax on it.
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:55 PM
To: byronclink at juno.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing
Bryon:
I can't tell you how to price work for you family. My family gets
my labor for nothing. Guess they figure I am a slave. All I charge
them is materials. If this were a paying customer I would estimate 7
hours labor plus materials. Since the work must be done over a two day
period ( need to let the stain dry overnight) you may want to add travel
time, if the finish work is being done on location. What you describe
is not a big job, but large enough that you will not have a lot of time
waiting to apply the next coat of lacquer.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Byron w Clinkingbeard [byronclink at juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:06 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: pricing
List-
I need some input from many of you. I'm about finished with the new
cabinets for the inlaws, but I don't have any idea how to price the
finishing of them. I've got 52 raised panel doors, in addition to a
bunch of raised panels on the ends, oven sides, and along the back of a
penninsula. After trial and error, the only finish she really liked was
hand rubbed stain, then wiped down with thinner on a rag, followed by 3
or more coats of lacquer. That's a sizeable job!!! I know that if she
had hired somebody else, chances are they would have sprayed the stain,
then sprayed three coats of lacquer. But......the difference in the look
of the finish is incredible. How would you go about pricing a finishing
job like this? I've got a pretty good handle on how to charge for the
building of the cabinets, but how do you charge for finishing? Thank God
the insides are clear lacquer, and didn't have to be stained! Any input
would be appreciated!
Byron Clinkingbeard
ByronClink at juno.com
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: Martin A. Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:25 PM
To: Byron w Clinkingbeard
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing
I'm not sure of your situation, but I don't charge my family or in-laws,
however they pay for material and I usually get a tool or something I
need, i.e., saw blade, router bit etc. Not only do you use material, there
is wear and tear on your equipment/bits etc. So I help them out with the
finished product, and I get a bit or blade to add to the collection...
They always seem happy with that....
Marty
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:32 AM
To: Byron w Clinkingbeard
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing
I've always figured my labor as a time function. In
other words, you have a value set on your time--the amount
you want to take home before taxes per hour. Your time also
includes the time cost of your shop and tools. Time cost of
your shop is the rent or equivalent per hour presuming there
are only eight hours in a day. Cost of tools is expected
life in 8hr days divided into the cost of the tools, _plus_
the expected maintence costs (and include your time in
that).
You figure how long the job will take and then multiply
by your time cost. If this is a hard bid that you are going
to have to live with (instead of an hourly rate) add 10% (or
15, or 20) as a contingency (in case the job takes
longer--the contingency should be added to materials cost as
well unless you are absolutely certain you won't use more
than you had figured). If you are a company, add some
percentage as expected profit.
If the job is one you have never done before, you will
have to make a test to find out how long it might take. Do
a small amount with a clock running, get a rate per whatever
(panel, square inches, etc.). Expand to the full job.
Don't forget your materials cost, of course.
Remember that any discount is going to come out of your
labor (or profit, for a company) since the other costs
(including shop and tool time) are really fixed expenses.
When you have it all figured out, expect that perhaps the
spray doesn't look so bad after all. If the in-laws expect
a really really low rate, you might point out that you could
use the time on some other job to get the rate you need to
support their daughter (and grandkids?).
Byron w Clinkingbeard wrote:
>
> List-
> I need some input from many of you. I'm about finished with the new
> cabinets for the inlaws, but I don't have any idea how to price the
> finishing of them. I've got 52 raised panel doors, in addition to a
> bunch of raised panels on the ends, oven sides, and along the back of a
> penninsula. After trial and error, the only finish she really liked was
> hand rubbed stain, then wiped down with thinner on a rag, followed by 3
> or more coats of lacquer. That's a sizeable job!!! I know that if she
> had hired somebody else, chances are they would have sprayed the stain,
> then sprayed three coats of lacquer. But......the difference in the look
> of the finish is incredible. How would you go about pricing a finishing
> job like this? I've got a pretty good handle on how to charge for the
> building of the cabinets, but how do you charge for finishing? Thank God
> the insides are clear lacquer, and didn't have to be stained! Any input
> would be appreciated!
> Byron Clinkingbeard
> ByronClink at juno.com
> http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:42 PM
To: byronclink at juno.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing, part 2
Byron:
As I mentioned in a earlier note you have less than a day work in the
finishing to commercial standards. You asked what a how to price the
job. Labor varies from area to area, so I can't tell you what to charge
for a labor rate. Most commercial finishers charge, the retail cost of
materials, plus the shop rate for labor. A commercial finisher gets a
discount on materials from any where from 20 to 40% based on their
volume. What your discount is, I simply do not know, but if you are
buying less than 500 gallons of material a year, I suspect it is little,
if any. So if you do not make a profit on the materials as other
finishers do, should you mark up you price? If you want to be fair to
your family, then not.
My sensing is that you are looking for some justification to charge
a market price. If so, what you have is 7 hours labor, plus the retail
price of the materials.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Marty Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:35 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Byron w Clinkingbeard
Subject: Re: pricing, part 2
Ok then Byron, figure out how many hours you have in the project
times what you'd normally charge. $10hr, $20hr? That's up to you.
OR see how much it would have cost them to go with a "box" cabinet
installed, i.e. what a Cabinet shop or Home Center would charge for
a high end cabinet and see if that number suits you, perhaps plus a
little more for all the "hand work". That way they won't feel the price
is too far out of line.
I guess the bottom line is, you know your in-laws, you know what
they may be capable of paying, you know their personalities AND
you know how much time and material you have in your project.
In my case, my father-in-law helps me tremendously on remodel
projects, and I know they are not capable of paying full tilt. So as I
mentioned before its material plus blades or bits. But he
reciprocates by helping me with labor. My advice, look to see how
much they would have paid if they had someone else do it local to
you. That way you know your price isn't too far out of line and they
maybe less inclined to argue the point and no feelings hurt.
Marty
> List-
> Several have written to tell me that they wouldn't charge their inlaws.
> The fact is, they have told me to charge what I would charge anybody off
> the street. She wanted a new kitchen, and she wanted me to do it. I've
> spent the last 4 months building cabinets with the care and craftsmanship
> that nobody gives (except fellow "oakers") anymore. So, the fact that I'm
> doing it for the inlaws is a moot point. What is it worth? I know I
> could figure an hourly wage, but maybe I work slow, so that might not be a
> fair price. I'd welcome any ideas. Do you charge by the foot? How do
> you establish a price? TIA!!! Byron Clinkingbeard ByronClink at juno.com
> http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing, part 2
When in doubt, an hourly rate plus materials is usually fair to all.
The truth of the matter is, cost or rates should always be discussed
before a job is started, not afterward. You can now be certain that
either your feelings or your in-laws will be hurt no matter how much or
how little that charge is.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 8:17 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: pricing, part 2
Byron,
I explained to all my "outlaws" many, many years ago that if I didn't earn a
living at what I was doing, it was generally pretty darned close to being
free (pull the roof offa coolie and throw another shrimp on the barbee).
However, if it involved my breadwinning talents then there were no deals to
be had.
It has worked very well for almost 25 years.
Jim W.
From: Bill Mutschler [sawdust_books at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 8:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: project repository and comments
All,
Lots has been posted over the last couple of days about member projects
and the related jpg incidents. In a post a while back, I had offered to
provide time (and web space) to collect members projects for all to
view. Since that post, Kip has made us aware of his "roundup" page at
http://theoak.com/roundup which addresses this very issue. I have
exchanged some emails with Kip and Ken Martin on how to proceed with
this idea and how I could help. I am sure this group can figure out a
good way to share all of our projects and learnings with the rest of the
group.
Now for a favor...My website is celebrating its 6 week anniversary. I
have spent a fair amount of time in the evenings trying to make this as
good a site as possible. Much to SWMBO's displeasure. My goal is simply
to provide a place on the web to find the woodworking information you
may be looking for. I would greatly appreciate any/all feedback from
the list on my site (positive and negative) to help me make it better.
To avoid jamming up the list, feel free to respond directly to me at
Bill.M at worldnet.att.net.
Thanks in advance for your time and comments,
Bill Mutschler
http://members.xoom.com/sawdustbooks/
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:29 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: PVC for air lines
Todd,
The main reason is safety. As plastic ages it becomes brittle. If you
should have a failure a plastic line will shatter sending shappnel around
the shop. Steel or copper will only leak.
Al
Big al on the irc
From: Devins [mdev at planet.eon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Pyrex Hot Food Tray
Greetings and Help Please:
I want to make a serving tray to hold an oblong Pyrex dish for hot foods.
I was thinking of lining the inside with 1/4 inch cork for heat insulation
cemented to 1/4 inch plywood [bottom].
I understand that heat on contact cement will deteriorate the bond.
Suggestions please?
Thanks in advance.
Allan Devins :-)}}
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Near Santa in location and time.
----------------------
Devins Fax (403) 481 2141 mdev at planet.eon.net
From: Rascallion [twobits at brainiac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:09 PM
To: Devins
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Pyrex Hot Food Tray
I have made two hot mats out of wine corks glued in place with Elmer's
carpenter's wood glue. Both of them have with stood the test of time(
about 3 yrs.) and haven't broken down yet.
True the corks are thicker than 1/4 but they seem to handle heat very
well. Could you increase the thickness any? Hope this helps
you.Rascallion
From: bbmry [bbmry at velocity.net]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 4:12 PM
To: The Oak
Subject: Queen Anne Help
Greetings...
Please help...like always in my life I am in a jam...
I need to make a table with Queen Anne style legs...yet I do not have
the expertise nor the time or the desire to learn...more importantly I
am cheap...so buying them is out....
I have to believe that I should be able to construct a router jig of
sorts to replicate the style or at least get close enough....
any help would be appreciated..
Thanx
Rob
From: Jerry Johnston [jerryj at ccnet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 5:14 PM
To: bbmry; The Oak
Subject: RE: Queen Anne Help
Rob,
The rough blanks are easily cut with a bandsaw, but be
prepared to do a lot of sanding to smooth out the blank. A
drum sander will help a lot.
Jerry Johnston
San Ramon, CA
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 6:55 AM
To: Aaron Cooper; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Question on finishes
Howdy Aaron
Of course it is beyond me why any right thinking normal person would use
poly on anything. But that is another story and since you are not on the
list as of yet you have no way of knowing that that is just a personal quirk
of mine and shouldn't dissuade you from using anything that gives you a warm
fuzzy feeling.
Now, having got that out, DO NOT put any finish of any kind on the table
till you know what you are dealing with and definatly not until you have at
least stripped the table of that "It may have a thin wax layer" I would
suggest a good rub down with naphtha.
If you have white rings there is a good possibility that you have a lacquer
finish on the table top. The rings can be removed via some commercial ring
removers (sorry, can't name any because the method I use is what follows) or
coat the ring with an oily substance. I usually use petroleum jelly but have
been told that even peanut butter works, and let it sit for a couple of
days. What you have is moisture that has worked it's way into the finish and
causing the cloudiness. The oils of the petroleum jelly will displace the
water and clear the cloud.
Next step is to identify what finish you have on the table top. In an
unobtrusive spot put a couple of drops of alcohol and near by a couple of
drops of lacquer thinner. if, after a short period of time, the alcohol has
softened the finish under it the finish is shellac, if the lacquer thinner
well then the finish is.........
If neither does anything the finish is most likely varnish or poly. My
money, for several reasons, is on lacquer.
Having identified the finish (more or less) I would, were I you, sand down
and clean up the top then recoat with what ever is on the table already or
strip it completely and use a finish of choice. I would never recommend
overcoating one type of surface finish with another (except in using a
sealer coat) to me it is asking for trouble. Since wood is constantly moving
and different finishes have different degrees of flexibility and mixing the
two is courting disaster in my opinion.
If you just go with your original plan at least make sure you clean the
surface thoroughly and scuff sand between coats to give the next coat some
tooth to bite into.
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Cooper <acoop03 at emory.edu>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 9:17 AM
Subject: Question on finishes
>I got this 3/4 inch table top from Surplus that needs some work to the
>finish.
>
>It has a light water ring from a plant pot, I was going to lightly sand
>it or #000 steel wool to remove the marks. It may have a thin wax layer
>(((what would be best to remove it?)))
>
>I plan on putting on a 3 coats of jell polyurethane for a nice finish.
>
>Any suggestion would be great, Please reply by e-mail I am not on the
>List right now.
>
>Thanks Aaron
>
A thought
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 8:50 AM
To: Aaron Cooper; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Question on finishes
Aaron Cooper Wrote:
>It may have a thin wax layer
>(((what would be best to remove it?)))
>
Mineral Spirits or Naptha.
If you take it to bare wood, I suggest a little linseed oil first. It'll
bring out the highlights of the wood and help prevent the plastic look of
poly.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who is getting ready for winter... Brrrr
From: Michael R. Shortreed [mshort at Chem.LSA.UMich.Edu]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:38 AM
To: Mike G.
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Question on finishes
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Mike G. wrote:
> Howdy Aaron
>
> Of course it is beyond me why any right thinking normal person would use
> poly on anything. But that is another story and since you are not on the
What about wooden footstools???? I have one finished and two others
nearing completion (one cherry, one redoak, and one soft maple). Can you
recommend a finish that will take the beating that pU will? Believe me, I
am all ears. I have an article out of AW by Kirby describing a finish for
Cherry that I am planning on using for an endtable which is under
construction but I am not sure it could survive the abuse a footstool
takes. I can't be positive of all the ingredients off hand but it has
just some beeswax / turps and maybe some tung or linseed oil. Let me know
what you think.
-michael
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:08 AM
To: Michael R. Shortreed
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Question on finishes
Michael R. Shortreed wrote:
> What about wooden footstools???? I have one finished and two others
Can you
> recommend a finish that will take the beating that pU will? Believe
Let me know
> what you think.
> -michael
>
> Dr. Michael R. Shortreed Iowa State University
> Phone: (515) 294-1127 Rm. 7 Office & Laboratory
> Fax: (515) 294-3623 Ames, IA 50011
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mshort/homepage.htm
--
There are a few finish's that will take the beating of Polyurethane. But
then you start to run into application problems, shelf lifes, and safety
issues, drying, environment and purchsing problems. The finish's might
be a little more durable, but hardly enough to make a difference in
durability and far from enough to get involved in unless you were in a
production situation.
When done properly, a Polyurethane finish can be quite nice. And there
surely is no question as to it's durability. Polyurethane appearance,
which at one time had a poor reputation has improved over the years. It
does not have to look like poured on plastic unless you want it to.
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 5:43 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Michael R. Shortreed
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Question on finishes
Don summed it up as well as I could but I'll add a little bit.
I'm not denying that poly is a superior in it's durability. However, and as
I pointed out, this is a personal dislike and should not dissuade anyone
from using whatever they want.
It has been my experience that the marginal durability over, say, a good
varnish, is enough to make it extremely difficult to rub out, and, with the
touchiness of it in application that it shares with varnish, some degree of
rubbing out is almost always necessary for a flawless finish.
In addition, as you will surely see with your footstools, it is not
indestructible. It's very toughness will drive you to tears when it comes
time to redo that finish.
All in all, and to restate Don's observation, in most applications, the
extra degree of durability you get is usually not worth the worth what it
takes to get a fine finish.
From: Chad Marsh [chad at wa.net]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 8:34 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Questions about using my Leigh Jig
John, I would always clamp a thin (1/8-1/4") piece of stock to one or
both sides of my workpiece to prevent tearout on hardwoods. I used A
Racal Power Visor, so dust was not a problem.
Chad Marsh
PM-66 on IRC
Tacoma, WA
"John T. Horner" wrote:
>
> I've assembled my Leigh Jig D4 Kit (anything which comes in that many pieces
> should be labeled a kit) and I'm having fun learning to use it.
>
> Two questions:
>
> First, does anyone have direct experience comparing the Leigh bits to other
> bits (like Jessada) in use? Would a higher quality bit make a real
> difference in reducing tearout? The Leigh bits which came with the machine
> appear to be of good quality based on my visual inspection.
>
> Second, what are your strategies for dealing with the copious amounts of
> sawdust? I'm using Porter Cable 690 router, would the edge type dust
> collection accessory work in this situation? Has anyone tried the Dewalt
> 621 with it's built in dust collection while doing jig routing?
>
> All in all I'm very happy so far with the jig. I'm very glad to have the
> adjustable pin and tail width rather than the cookie cutter look of most
> dovetail jigs. I'm also happy to be able to do both through and half blind
> dovetails. I like to use false front drawers in many applications as they
> allow me to do final drawer front to case alignment as the very final step.
> For kitchen cabinet style construction with inset drawers this is a real
> advantage. With a false front I would just as soon use a full through
> dovetail instead of a half-blind. I think the through dovetail is stronger.
>
> Cheers, John
From: Lignumvai at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 9:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Quilting Frames
Anybody have a good site for quilting frame plans? Looks like the old "square
frame" is no longer acceptable - and the wife wants me to build her a "state
of the art" model.
Thanks for any suggestions.
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 12:57 PM
To: Lignumvai at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Quilting Frames
Hi ?
Only a couple of these refer to plans but there might be some
useful leads or ideas.
http://www.moritzdesigns.com/quilting/frame.html
http://vondas.gen.com/
http://www.graceframe.com/
http://www.iplaza.com/quilting/hbqx2000.html
http://www.hinterberg.com/qx2000.htm
Good luck....Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Ron Miner [rwminer at a1usa.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:21 PM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Raised Panel
Ken Martin wrote:
> Ron:
> You obviously had a reason for the difference in panel size. Is it a
> reason that you can articulate or was it a intuitive feeling. By the
> way, nice work on the desks!
> Ken Martin
Ken
Thanks for the complement.
The 2 end panels were made so the stile and the mullins would cover the back of the
pedestal with the least amount of mullin showing under the desk. Not that it really
mattered that much its just the way I liked it. The 2 middle panels were made wider to
accommodate the extra wide leg room. I think these panels are only 1-1/2" wider
and are hardly noticeable
--
Ron Miner
R&D Woodworks
Check out some of my work at my new Home Page at:
http://home.a1usa.net/~rwminer
Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, when you do criticize
him, you'll be a mile away and have his shoes. -- Unknown
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:41 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Raised Panel
>I plan on building a double pedestal desk. Dimensions approximately 72" wide,
>30" deep, and 30 "high. The front (the face opposite the drawer side) will be
>one flat surface that is approximately 66 "wide and 29" high with raised
>panels within the frame. Is there a golden rule or guide that says to make
>each panel a certain size in order to achieve a pleasant look?
There is a lot written on Golden Mean. You can find some online
references at the following URLs.
http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/KW/goldengeom.html
http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/KW/golden.html
>Should there be an odd or even number of panels?
It really depends. A quick scale drawing of both would answer your
question. I personally like the look of two narrow panels flanking a
wider single panel. On the other hand there's a nice symmetry with
four equal size panels.
>Or perhaps I should have the center panels inset a bit where the opening
>between the pedestal would be.
Personally I like this idea for a couple of reasons. Number one it
would allow you to break all the components down which not only makes
building easier but makes future moving easier. Your two drawer
cabinets can have a vertical groove on the knee hole side to accept
the modesty panel and the top can hold the thing together with a few
screws through the rails in the drawer cabinets. For what it's worth
a 30" wide knee hole (between drawer cabinets) is recommended. I
would think anything greater, say 32" or 34" would be fine but I would
avoid going smaller.
The other reason I like this is it breaks up the space and doesn't
look as boring as a bigger panel. Again a quick sketch would answer
the question.
>Any thoughts, rules, or guide lines I can follow. I have not been able to find
>plans for a desk of this type in this size so I have to rely on my own (and
>hopefully yours) thoughts on this one.
I'm going to shot gun a bunch of plan links here. I suspect you won't
find an exact match but you will find something close that can be
modified. The August Home site has a desk that would make a good
basis for a design. Also look at the roll top designs. These can
easily be modified by deleting the roll top. Essentially they are
what you want with the tambour plunked onto the top.
http://1-offwooddesigns.tierranet.com/
http://ttlc.net/accents/
http://www.augusthome.com/Plans/pphome.htm
http://www.bfrank.com/
http://www.scrollsaw.com/benjones/
http://www.scrollsaw.com/directory.htm
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/projects/sleighbed/page1.htm
http://www.sky.net/~lorenh/
http://www.teleport.com/~hippo1/images/mission/mission.shtml
http://www.cdprojects.com/index2.html
http://themetro.com/wood/
http://www.escape.ca/~denisroy/
http://www.deltawoodworking.com/delta/table/project/index.html
http://ro.com/~dsandlin/destin/
http://www.dremel.com/Dremel.html
http://golden.adams.net/~fplans/
http://www.gcwoodworks.com/
http://www.hobbyplan.com/
http://www1.minn.net/~mozart/
http://www.escape.ca/~denisroy/bunkbed.htm
http://www.minwax.com/projects/index.htm
http://theoak.com/gary/
http://wco.com/~lmi/
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/2HHIFMP.html
http://profhdwr.com/plans.htm
http://www.skiltools.com/html/PLANS.HTML
http://www.square1wp.com/
http://www.stanleyworks.com/ButBar.map?335,21
http://www.plygemmanufacturing.com/instructions/planking/wainscot.html
http://www.homefittings.com/
http://www.wolfenet.com/~aboutime/links.htm
http://135.145.192.232/woodplans/
http://www.rlcom.com/workbench/wood.htm
http://www.woodchuck-pub.com/
http://woodshop.net/
http://www.charm.net/~jriley/compfurn.html
http://www.vii.com/~rpacker/page25.html
http://www.woodworking.com/plans.html
http://www.gcwoodworks.com/linksto.htm
http://www.wood-worker.com/woodwork.htm
Keith Bohn
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:13 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
2 unrelated questions:
I'm looking into buying a rail/stile and raised panel router bit set and
had a question. Some companies offer a raised panel bit with back cutter.
This makes sense to me. My question is with the bits that don't have back
cutters. If you don't back cut the panel wouldn't you have to use thinner
stock than the rail and stile? Otherwise, the panel would protrude from the
frame. Is this correct or am I really confused? Wouldn't be the first time.
I'm also looking at buying a 24" Leigh dovetail jig. When looking at the
catalog I noticed that there are all sorts of add-ons, accessories, etc. Do
I need to buy a whole bunch of other things just to use the jig or can I
use what comes in the basic package? Any thoughts or recommendations on
this or other large jigs are appreciated.
Working my way through the fog...
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:55 AM
To: AG Kesmetis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
AG,
I have made raised panel doors both ways over the years.With a
backcutter and without.With a router and shaper.You are correct that if
you do not use a back cutter that you use thinner panels.Usually 5/8
thick for a 3/4 thick door but there are a few other things to consider.
With a back cutter you will need more power.I presently use one with
3/4" panels and raise them on a 7.5 hp shaper.I do them in one pass
which as a hobbiest will not be a concern to you but it still takes alot
of power.If I were using a router I would stick with the single cutter.
Another concern is added weight to the door.These doors with a 3/4"
panel will be heavy and will require good solid hardware.I will not use
the Amerock snap close hinges(kind of an industry standard for kitchens)
with them.If the doors are very big they will be very heavy.
Hop this helps.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Jeff Hodgson [jeff.hodgson at mail.multiverse.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:32 AM
To: 'Woodworking list'
Subject: RE: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
The amount of protrusion is set by the height of the panel cutter -- if you've got 3/4 thick stock, and you cut 1/4" sticking on the stiles & rails, then setting the panel cutter 1/4" high will leave the panel field flush with the frame. If you set the cutter 3/8 high, the panel will be proud by 1/8". The back cutter simply assures that the panel will fit the groove, saving a step where you'd have to rabbit the back of the panel to fit. Many folks do plane the panel to 1/2" instead -- this can save a bunch of weight for an entire frame & panel case piece.
Don't know about the Leigh, though I think the basic set will get you started with a 1/2" dovetail bit. I'm an Incra fan.
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:24 AM
To: 'Woodworking list'
Subject: Re: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
From: AG Kesmetis[SMTP:aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
>I'm also looking at buying a 24" Leigh dovetail jig. When looking at the
>catalog I noticed that there are all sorts of add-ons, accessories, etc. Do
>I need to buy a whole bunch of other things just to use the jig or can I
>use what comes in the basic package? Any thoughts or recommendations on
>this or other large jigs are appreciated.
The Leigh Jig as supplied is ready to go for a wide variety of dovetails.
Most of the accessories are for other joints like box joints and the funky
Isoloc joint.
It comes with two basic bits, but you might quickly find that you want a few
better and/or different bits.
John
From: Wayne Jones [Wayne.Jones at internetmci.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:32 AM
To: Jeff Hodgson; 'Woodworking list'
Subject: RE: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
Jeff, I own an incra that I have only used for some small boxes. I want to
use it to dovetail the drawers for kitchen cabinets. I am a little
intimidated about running 22" boards vertically through the router. Have
you done this? Is the small right angle jig that comes with the incra
substantial enough to handle larger pieces of wood.
Seems like with the Leigh, you are moving the router over clamped down wood
and thus perhaps the user has a little more control.
From: Wayne Jones [Wayne.Jones at internetmci.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:32 AM
To: Jeff Hodgson; 'Woodworking list'
Subject: RE: Raised Panels/Dovetail Jigs
Jeff, I own an incra that I have only used for some small boxes. I want to
use it to dovetail the drawers for kitchen cabinets. I am a little
intimidated about running 22" boards vertically through the router. Have
you done this? Is the small right angle jig that comes with the incra
substantial enough to handle larger pieces of wood.
Seems like with the Leigh, you are moving the router over clamped down wood
and thus perhaps the user has a little more control.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:01 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Ran out of tung oil, now what?
When we last left our hero, he had just given the can of finish a vigorous
shake only to hear a very sad sound indeed. "Not to worry", he cried as he
mounted his trusty steed, dashing through the snow in a one horse......oops
wrong story!
Nope, no "real" tung oil here...........nope, no "real" tung oil there. With
at least two more applications left here are my options - finish off with
something else, but what? Found some imported, gold plated Danish oil (must
be imported, gold plated.......the tag on the side of the can brought a
lump to my throat). OR wait two weeks until I go to Edmonton..........and
after that much time can I just pick up where I left off with the
finishing?? The third option is to use this piece for kindling but it's one
of those late, tough-to-do-anything-when-it's-this-cold kinda Xmas presents.
Any and all suggestions welcome.....well, 'cept for the one telling me to
put it where UV can't bother it 8^).
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 8:54 PM
To: Jim & Deb Warman; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Ran out of tung oil, now what?
Jim, a sad situation indeed.
I say, go with the Danish oil.
I have used them both and see little, if any, difference in
them.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that they are so
similar in content that one would be hard pressed to tell
the difference without the labels.
To simplify things in my shop I have been using Watco's line
of finishing oils for several years and am quite pleased
with the results.
10Q,
Moose
Wisdom ceases to be wisdom when it becomes too proud to
weep, too grave to laugh, and too selfful to seek other than
itself. - Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931) [Sand and Foam]
From: tlovelace at austin360.com
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 7:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RAS & Laser Lights
For those with an RAS, chop saws, etc. take a look at the $79.00
laser marker.(like Norm's?)
http://www.bladepoint.com/
Regards
Tom of Austin
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: air filter - not dust collector
Hi all - 1st I'm new to this list.
I'm working in my basement trying to build *NOT* a dust collector
but a *DUST* filter. (You know, one of those rectangular boxes
you mount in the ceiling with filters in it).
My basement work area has no working windows
near by so I choke, gag, and spit dust. With my very thick beard,
wearing a dust mask is not cutting it, I don't get a good seal.
Buddy of mine just got a new furnace - I stole the blower
out of the old one. Thus I have acquired for the price of $ZERO$ - a 3
speed oil furnace blower. From what I can figure it will have
1000/1500/2000 CFM air flow, my work area is only 16x10 - so I'll
be bolting all hand tools to the bench so they don't get sucked in.
I'm having problems finding filters to use so I can build the box
the right size to fit the filters.
Where would one buy a replacement filter for some of the standard
filters
like I describe? I've looked in the GRAINGER catalog, it seems I need a
BAG filter that is about 24" wide, 18" tall and about 22" deep to handle
the airflow, costs is I think about $35 to $40 for the 'secondary'
filter.
The primary filter - I'll use cheap fiber-glass ones.
Problem is Grainger only has 24" wide filters. They don't have anything
smaller. They are *ALL* 24" wide, by some height. 24" WIDE will *NOT*
fit in my plans [i.e.: between two the 2x4s in a load baring partion
wall]
Where do you guys who have these things buy new filters?
Anybody got any suggestions?
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:28 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com; SSUG-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: RE: Delta table-saw / motor will not tur
In a message dated 10/28/98 12:48:34 PM, tburch at cdbsoftware.com writes:
<< blew the
compressed air into the motor housing. Dust went everywhere. He turned the
saw on, and it worked perfect. As I was writing out the $60 check for the
service call, he explained that dust gets between the contacts inside the
housing causing them to make poor contact.>>
Same thing happens with a Shopsmith. The easy remedy, suggested by a SS
serviceman is to put it in the drill press position and hit the bottom several
whacks with a wooden mallet. The dust falls out and it runs again. Happens
less when the dust collector is attached to the accessory being used.
Lee Harper
From: Byron w Clinkingbeard [byronclink at juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 5:29 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: pricing, part 2
List-
Several have written to tell me that they wouldn't charge their inlaws.
The fact is, they have told me to charge what I would charge anybody off
the street. She wanted a new kitchen, and she wanted me to do it. I've
spent the last 4 months building cabinets with the care and craftsmanship
that nobody gives (except fellow "oakers") anymore. So, the fact that
I'm doing it for the inlaws is a moot point. What is it worth? I know I
could figure an hourly wage, but maybe I work slow, so that might not be
a fair price. I'd welcome any ideas. Do you charge by the foot? How
do you establish a price? TIA!!!
Byron Clinkingbeard
ByronClink at juno.com
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
From: RAKENEL at aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 6:51 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Scrollsaw
Hi to all.
A month or two ago I wrote about my Ryobi VS165 Scroll saw breaking blade
holders, I have broken about a dozen. recived two yesterday both broke in two
hours.
Back on the phone with Ryobi !They wont admit to poor metal or design, but
are giving a full refund. Im sending a copy of recipt and they will send
proper paper work. Fair enough !
Saw sells for appx 150$ Any imput on replacement in 150--200 price range?
Can't afford more at this time
TIA Budd
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 10:21 AM
To: gchapman at mps.org; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: air filter - not dust collector
My hood in my lab is a HEPA also, buts its a bit different (had to
pay over $300 awhile to replace that one!)
Anyway, I have a HEPA on my furnace at home also (wife=alergies), you
can replacement filters for it (without the case, etc.) for about
$17 at places like "Home Depot". Remember that a HEPA will slow down
the air some, but will filter very well.
Gary
>A friend whose a biochem professor uses HEPA filters in her hoods and
>resommends them as over kill for a woodshop application. $50 at the farm
>store.
>
>Glenn
>
>
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Antidust Respireators.
The Airmate 3 was discontinued this past summer. Something to do with
OSHA and dust/mist filters. The power visor is still available from a
variety of sources.
Someone mentioned that an Airmate 3 constructed from replacement parts
was available. The replaceable filters are not being made. A HEPA
filter that fits the Airmate 3 (not made for the Airmate 3) is
available for half again as much as the original filter.
When I asked 3M what products I could use instead of the Airmate 3 I
was provided a list of products that were far more costly and
confining.
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Danny E. Cook
Subject: Re[2]: Chauta sample
Hi Danny
I suspect it is oxidized instead of UV because the sample I saw,
which was very dark, was not exposed or likely to be exposed to
sunlight. It could be that the display of samples was at one time
located so that it could be exposed to sunlight but it looked like the
display of samples was attached, to the wall it was on, many many
years ago. It could be the wood was so dark from just layers of dust.
BTW I got the spelling the lumber yard had provided for the wood
Chaniuta. If anyone has any information about this wood I would
appreciate it. I know at one time I had come across a web site where
the "Woods Of The World" was accessible but as with many things on the
web just try and find it again.
I looked into UV inhibitors one time a while back. My research
(which satisfied me but wasn't exhaustive and therefore may be faulty)
indicated that transparent finishes and UV inhibitor is an oxymoron.
About the most a transparent finish could hope for was about 13%. To
achieve more than 13% would cause a reduction in the transparency of
the finish. The best transparent UV inhibitors would be like a set of
blinds. This is to say that when the wood was viewed at some angles
the wood appeared very natural and you couldn't detect a finish. Yet
as you rotated the piece your view would become obscured. One of the
things I like most about turned wood is that the grain of the wood can
be viewed from many angles as the piece is round. This provides a
depth to the wood as your view of the wood changes from side grain to
top grain to end grain.
As for keeping the bowl out of sunlight, that is an excellent idea
I may even take it a step further and keep it out of halogen light as
well.
Thanks
Richard
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 5:31 PM
To: RLA; Wendy Wilson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chauta sample
Marine Spar Varnish probably has the most UV inhibitors
available in a commercially packaged finishing product.
10Q,
Moose
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:45 AM
To: pm at infra.com.au; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
>Would someone please humour a part time amateur and outline the easiest =
>way to cut dovetails by hand? I'm almost entirely self taught so I =
>always wind up wondering if there isn't an easier/better way of doing =
>things.
>I have been cutting pins with a tenon and hand fret, transferring =
>markings to tail piece (both sides) then repeating the exercise. With a =
>little care and practice this seems to produce near perfect joints in no =
>time.=20
>
>Is this The Way?
>
It sounds like it works for you, thus its The Way! I prefer this method
also, partly because its quieter than chopping out the waste, i.e.,
using a coping saw or a fret saw to cut out the waste. And marking the
pins (or tails) from the mating sides, is the best way to do it also,
whether you are cutting through, mitered, half-blind, blind, etc. That
way, any variation in the angles, etc. are matched by the other side.
One thing I really enjoy about hand cutting, is that when I quite for
the day/night, I can hear yet with no router noises still ringing in my
brain!
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:34 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Hand cut Dovetails? Oh! One of my favorite subjects. Lets remember
that Frank Klausz has been doing this for 40 years or more, so its
looks extremely easy, and really it is, it just takes practice. If you
ever get to a wood show that he is at, take his seminars and watch him
work, it is amazing.
I hand cut all mine, but its not as fast as his, and I do a lot of
marking up, where Frank just gets to it. But you are right! With a
little practice and patience, its not hard to get adequite dovetails,
and with more practice .........................
BUT not to get frustrated, start with a good saw and very sharp chisels,
the saw doesn't have to be a $150 saw, but sharp, tuned, etc. And
chisels must be sharp also. Look at a few books to see how different
people do it. Klausz uses the so-called "Danish" system, i.e., pins
then tails, and chops the waste out. But, there is a so-called British
system, which I use, that does tails, then pins and use a coping saw to
cut a lot of the waste out, then pare. Both systems work, its up to the
individual which he likes better. Some friends insist that the only saw
for dovetailing is a "Japanese saw," each his own.
But don't expect to get the dovetails out as fast and perfect as
Klausz does the first time, or the second, it takes awhile to get the
hang of it.
The last wood show I was at (its been a couple of years) both Klausz and
Ian Kirby were there. Klausz cuts them faster, but Kirby's were much
more elegant and pretty. Klausz=Danish, Kirby=English. Klausz even
admitted that if you really want pretty dovetails, to use Kirby's style,
if you wanted to get them done fast, use his. Sorta depends on what
you are after.
As Don said in a post, a few of us have been mentioning this for quite
a while, but........................
>This morning I watched a video put out by Time-Life with Franz doing his
>hand made dovetail thing. I'm gonna try it. It's almost as fast as using a
>jig. He claims it's faster. The cool thing about his method is that it
>doesn't make any difference if all the dovetails are exactly the same. You
>just have to match the pins and tails. He shows through dovetails. I would
>assume that he does half blind in much the same way. I'll have to think
>about that. Anyway, my impression was that anyone could do a decent job
>with hand cut dovetails if you lay things out right to start.
>
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 9:30 AM
To: Gary L. Yarrow; pm at infra.com.au; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
I'm no expert on dovetailing, but I, too, like to go by hand. After reading
these posts I'll try something different - cutting out as much waste as I
can with a saw. Chiseling seems to work best to clean up my cuts.
One question: How can I tell a good fret/coping saw from a bad one?
Thanks!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at sdsumus.sdstate.edu]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 1:00 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Dovetail Jig ( Store Bought )
Just a little addition to Don's comments below. Also check the
coping saw frame that it does not flex excessively. Some of the
really cheap ones, flex a lot and thus don't lead very well, thus
you get a "choppier" cut than one that doesn't flex as much. Believe
it or not, the last time I bought a decent one was at Sears, but I don't
think I saw them there last time that I looked. Sandvik (sp?) makes a
pretty good one also. As Don said, be sure its a standard size so that
you can easily get new blades for them. The blades wear out fairly
quickly when you are cutting a lot of hard woods (like maple or such.)
Gary
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 8:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Flat Panel Stile & Rail Construction
Hi Keith
I have used oversized 3/4 slides to achieve 110% drawer exposure.
Please note that the support is a bit flimsy. I would suspect that
if a slide is rated at 100 lbs on a 3/4" slide the manufacture would
expect 25 lbs to help counter balance the 75 lbs hanging out. That
would mean that the effective rating would be half the stated rating
when used as a full drawer exposure slide.
Also please note that if you wish to remove drawers from the box.
The extra slide will stick out the back. I also suspect that a lack
of support for the ends of the slide contributes to the flimsy nature.
If you make the drawer the full depth of the 3/4 slide and put a
back in the drawer such that when you pull the drawer out it appears
as though the entire drawer is exposed you would have 1/4 drawer
hidden compartments. The extra structure would stiffen up the slides
and the extra weight would help counter balance the drawer. If would
make the whole thing a lot heavier though.
These particular attributes were of little concern to me as the
drawer is less than 20 lbs fully loaded and is never removed.
Because you have so many slides to use and the heirloom nature of
the projects you may want to consider making your own full extension
slides. I know shop built slides tend to stick as wood expands and
contracts.
Thanks
Richard
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Flat Panel Stile & Rail Construction
Author: b2d at execpc.com (Duke of URLs) at internet-mail
Date: 12/11/98 9:59 AM
Don comments:
>Maybe this will help. If there is enough height, build a "kicker". That
>will prevent "droop". Also, if there is enought depth instead of height,
>if the drawers are designed to have the drawer sides extend past the
>drawer back an inch or two, this will also prevent the drawer from
>drooping as it will still be captured.
I'm starting to come around to this idea Don. I originally thought I
didn't want the "wasted" space. Upon reflection it's a pretty foolish
concern. I mean, what are we talking about, an extra square foot?
Besides, this suggestion has led to another thought I go into below.
>> The cheapest I've found is the #3829s at around $10 to $11 a set which
>> translates to around $100 total for all the drawers.
>No Keith, not a #3829. Check out #2632 instead. Although I think there
>was even another one that required slightly less height. Hey, I didn't
>say anything about cost :-).
As it turns out the #2632 is a buck more than the #3829. We shouldn't
squabble over a buck and the #2632 is the right height. I mean a buck
each translates into an overall added cost of $12. Hoo boy, stop the
presses while I crowbar open the wallet.
Can we side bar here? If you look at 3/4 extension slides you'll note
that they run anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of full extension.
Here's what I'm thinking. I want the trays to be around 12" to 14"
deep. If I use 16" or 18" 3/4 extension drawer slide my trays will be
fully accessible in the extended position. It's a bit like the
extended drawer side scenario you mentioned above and we are talking a
considerable savings. Someone wanna check my logic? Did I miss
something?
>Gerstner photo is close, but not close enough! And the name is not right
>either. But that's okay, I'm not suggesting one is better than the
>other.
I'm curious about the boxes you are referring to. I'd really like to
beat this to death and see all the options prior to starting. :-)
Keith Bohn
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 10:39 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: hand plane help NEEDED
I know everyone is advocating hand planes and your question is about
hand planes. I have also seen great advise on the hand planes. Just
for an informed view from the "more power" side:
A 4x24 belt sander with a sanding frame.
I have not seen sanding frames for the PC belt sanders. The Bosch
4x24 VS will accept their sanding frame. A bit pricy at ~350 for the
whole thing. There are several smaller (and less costly) belt sanders
that you can get which will also take a sanding frame. The sanding
frame is the key to belt sanding large panels flat. No gouges, no
waves, no-brainer, no feel for the wood. It is really a detached
approach instead of the feel, smell and sound of a sharp plane
shearing through wood.
In that same detached way you could take your panel to a cabinet shop.
Pay them to flatten your panel with a wide belt sander.
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 11:15 AM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Heating The Shop
Do you have any problem with condensation, as the propane heatere
produces a fair amount of moisture as part of the combustion?
Gary
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 8:51 AM
To: dldahl at att.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Joiner [vs hand plane] Question - How are old planes better?
>OK, my turn!
OK, my turn again. I agree with you in theory, that all planes need to
be tuned, sharpened, etc. and set up. Yes, definately power tools also,
so its in the same boat.
AND, even though I much more appreciate the old hand tools than the
newer ones, you can take a English made Stanely with plastic handles and
make them work well. And yes, its the same with many old tools. A 100
year old plane will not work right unless it was well taken care of, and
was/or will be tuned by you. Some old planes that I have, well they are
junk! And some of these are Stanely Bailey's.
I like the older ones better, feel better, and that connection thing
comes into play.
Theres a fellow on the old tools group who bought Records lowest cost
#4 plane and spent some time fixing it up (just like I do with any older
plane) and he swears that it works just as well as any old plane (the
plane in question cost him about $34.) He put a lot of work into it,
and since I have seen it and used it, it does work well. But, he put
a heck of a lot of time into it, more than I would have.
So what am I trying to say? Heck, I don't know. There definately is an
"old tool mystic" that has its good points and bad. Good: the connectio
real wood handles (although its easy to replace the plastic ones with
some that you make yourself, that fits you), heavy castings, better
fitting frogs, etc. And Bad: well, just like with power tools that is
definately an "old tools elitism" that has developed...... I probably
fall into this last category sometimes. One thing about the old hand
tools also, is that they made a lot more different kinds of hand tools
than "they" do today. Thus for some things, if you want to do something
by hand, you must do it with old hand tools.
One of the reasons that I really got into old tools, is that I have had
some for 35 years or so. My grandfather and father were both cabinet
makers, and since I can remember I was in the shop. Dad told me the
other day that I was in the shop as young as 3 and 4 ("helping" I'm
sure -)), and since I am now 43, well you get the idea. I've always
been around them. Even in college, I used to make some extra money by
making bookselves, speaker cabinets, etc. --with hand tools. (My dorm
RA didn't appreciate all the plane produced debris in the laundry room
at times, but....) BUT, even though I strongly preach the hand tool
route, I use power tools also. Its just a matter of degrees.
One thing about the old tools also, is that they are generally cheaper
than comparitive new hand tools. You just have to keep your eyes open.
Well, a lot fluff and not much content, but since we were talking!
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:38 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Lathe: roughing out bowls
Hi James
You can take your jig two steps farther.
1. Get a pin chuck for your lathe. Make the mount on you jig just
slightly smaller than your pin chuck.
2. Hinge your jig so you can cut round and beveled at the same time.
Thanks
Richard
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:11 AM
To: bgowens at home.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Old growth wood and why
If I may put on my Plant Physiologist hat for a minute here (yes, my
doctorate was in Plant Physiology and Biochemistry!)
The nitrogen cycle, of course, will have an effect, but its not the
only influence. The wider growth rings, I believe, would not just be
a nitrogen effect, but also consider that 1) increased CO2 in the
atmosphere (in the early 1900's and late 1800's the concentration was
around 250-260 ppm, now, in some places, its at 320 ppm), 2) The major
influence on wider growth rings is probably sunlight. More direct
sunlight on the plants. Even with these, however, the plant/tree/
whatever, has to have water. With less trees around it (i.e.,
competition) a tree has more access to water, sunlight and yes, nitrogen
Just because you increase one nutritional factor, does not mean that
you eliminate the "stress" from other factors. Plus, as stated by
Bruce (?), plants cannot all use nitrogen oxides,it must be in a useable
form, this is nitrates or can be nitrites, depending upon the plants.
Ammonia can be used by some plants, but it usually has to go throught
a bacteria or nitrification process first.
And, yes, this definately would affect more than just trees. This would
affect lakes in many bad ways, causing the big increase in algae blooms,
and eventually suffocation of the lake by the decaying matter.
Getting down to basics. I have a hard time believing that the increase
in nitrogen is the cause of loss of old growth. Old growth grew
slowly mainly because of competition with other trees. They existed
together for hundreds of years trying to out compete for resources.
These resources included water, light, phosphorus, calcium etc., etc.,
and also nitrogen. But incresing one does not mean that it eliminates
the other scarce resources. BUT if you cut down a whole forest, plant
trees again (or let reseeding do it from a few left), and there is not
as many trees, then less competition, and thus less constraints, and
thus faster growing trees, which, of course, has wider growth rings.
AND, let us not forget, that many forests today are planted with
"genetically superior" varieties, or even "better" species that once
originally grew in an area.
Less tress can be done in at least two ways. First, just naturally less
trees, or in modern forestry, "pre-commercial thinning". That is
foresters artificially eliminate competition by cutting down some trees
and leaving others. If you left a modern forest for a couple of hundred
years, you would probably again have "old growth wood".
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 8:33 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: Re[2]: Russian Olive......FALSE ALARM
Moose,
Not to worry. At six inches in diameter, you can do lots with a
lathe. No lathe you say? That's OK, get a pick up truck load, haul
it over to Corvallis, OR and you can use mine. Let me know cause we
are trying to sell our house for a move and SWMBO likes me to keep
that garage clean.
Regards,
Terry Gerros
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 12:03 PM
To: castelli at gip.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Sargent Plane
>Gary,
>There are no other markings other than what I described. The color of the
>japaning is deep-deep blue to black, kind of hard to tell. The lenght of the
>remaining blade is over 2" and all parts "look original".
>And as long as it keeps shaving the cherry wood like butter, it will remain my
>friend.
Since the color is a blue, and does not have the "VBM" on it ("Very Best
Made"), it is probably a newer plane. By newer, I would wildly guess
that is was made in the late 50's or 60's. The value, only guessing,
would still be in the $40-50 range. But if you like it, it was your
father's and it works well, then its priceless! Keep it in good shape,
and when the time comes, pass it on. Its been said before, but they
just don't make them like that anymore! (Don't you just hate that
saying?) Use it in good health!
Gary
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:53 PM
To: Ken Martin; Moose and Betty
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Table Saw Fences (now Sears quality)
I believe this verges on a tool gloat. Pretty darn close anyway.
:-)
Terry Gerros
_______________________ Reply Separator _______________________
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences (now Sears quality)
Author: Ken Martin <knm at widomaker.com> at Internet_Gateway
Date: 10/28/98 8:03 PM
All:
A month or so ago I posted a note concerning Sears and their contract
with me over some of the items that I had had some negative experience
with. As a result of those conversations they sent me a drill press on
the condition that I would evaluate it and provide them feedback.
Actually, the manufacture of the drill press told me to go to any Sears
store and buy one and send them the bill for reimbursement. I did and
faxed them the receipt and their check was to me within three days. I
will post a evaluation on the drill press the first part of next week.
Also, I have had numerous conversations with their router
manufacture. As a result of those convsations I sent them a couple of
Sears industrial grade plunge routers back for failure analysis. They
have finished with one and indicated that knew they had a design problem
and had already implemented a design change. This change appears in the
Sears model and the one under their name. The other router their
engineers and quality assurance people are still looking at. Their
representative called me yesterday and told me he was sending two new
routers, since they want to keep the ones I sent them. Since they were
no good to me, I quickly agreed. Once they are finished with their
failure analysis they will tell me what they found and what they are
going to do about it. I will post that to the list as well.
As many times as Sears and their manufactures have contacted me over
the last two months, I do get the sensing that they are sincerely trying
to address quality and design problems.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA
Moose and Betty wrote:
>
> I had the opportunity to take a close look at the new
> Craftsman Exact-I-Rip fence in my local Sears store while
> SWMBO was shopping somewhere else in the Mall. I was quite
> impressed with the fence. The jerk, oops excuse me, the
> clerk was quite pushy about showing me the additional
> accessories that they have for this fence.......real genuine
> plastic junk. I was not impressed with the saw that the
> fence was mounted on.
>
> Like Joe said, maybe they have seen the light.
>
> 10Q,
>
> Moose
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Johns <woodwork at ronan.net>
> To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 08:07 AM
> Subject: Table Saw Fences
>
> >For those folks who're tossing decision of which TS fence
> to purchase, I
> >suggest thumbing through the current issue of FW. The
> article essentially
> >says to buy a Biesemeyer (no surprise there), however it
> does cover some of
> >the other brands and I can see where it would be very
> informative to folks
> >not familiar with any of them. One maker's review that
> surprised me was
> >Crapsman's Extact-I-Rip - there may be hope for them yet.
> >
> >So, rush down to your local Barnes & Noble, sit in one of
> their comfy
> >chairs and read all about it!
> >
> >
> >Joe
> >Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
> >
> >URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
> >Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
> >Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
> >
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 2:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Table Saw Fences (now Sears quality)
Ken Martin wrote:
> As many times as Sears and their manufactures have contacted me over
>the last two months, I do get the sensing that they are sincerely trying
>to address quality and design problems.
Add to this scenario the fact that they've dumped Emerson who has now
turned around and aligned themselves with Home Depot and are offering
a lifetime warranty on the Ridgid line and you can pretty much bet
that Sears is feeling a warm breath on the back of their neck.
Talk about you run on sentences...
Anyway I'm left wondering what the future will bring. Will Sears'
recent decision to drop Emerson be the "New Coke" fiasco of the 90s?
Keith Bohn
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:01 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: TS safety question
Todd,
I use something called the Spoggle. I got it at Woodcraft. It's like a
pair of safety glasses without the arms. Instead it has an elastic
band like a pair of goggles would. Then there's a foam "gasket" molded
to the shape of the glasses frame. This conforms to your face as well
to seal out the dust. Kind of like a pair of miniature ski goggles (I
think - I don't ski so I might be wrong). I find them very comfortable
so that means they stay on my face more often. The only problem I've
had is when working outside when it's real hot & humid they'll fog up
after a while, so I have to take them off when not cutting.
Jim
Antioch IL
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:34 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: TS safety question
Hi Lee
I have used "Armorall" on a face shield. It works for a few days.
The bigger problems with a face shield are fogging and your head get
warm while wearing them. The forced air ones solve these problems but
they cost a lot.
Thanks
Richard
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:44 AM
To: bgowens at home.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re[2]: Which Furniture Polish?
>I'm popping in here off-thread only because paste-wax
>was mentioned.
>
I make my own "paste wax" for putting over oil finishes. Perhaps this
will work for others, since someone asked about how to do it. What I
do is to shred beeswax and put it in a can, cover with mineral spirits
(turpentine if you want, but the smell is a lot stronger). In another
can I put in carnuba wax with the mineral spirits again. Let them sit f
for awhile until the mineral spirits dissolved that waxes. Then I mix
in the carnuba with the beeswax until it feels right--yeah, I know, but
thats about how exact I get. Usually about 25% of the carnuba or less.
I might have to add a bit more mineral spirits to get them to mix up
very well, but then let it sit for a couple more days. Let some of the
spirits evaporate out and use. It takes a little experimentation, but
it works nice, I like the smell of the beeswax/carnuba combination, and
it looks nice on pieces. I also use it on tools, such as wooden planes,
and other things that need a little rust protection. I need a little
more of that lately, as plumbers, as I write, are tearing up my basement
floor to replace 70 year old waste pipes---sounds like fun, huh! Can't
even get to the shop right now, but they will be done (?) by this
weekend (I -and Anne- hope!)
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 2:06 PM
To: Gary L. Yarrow; bgowens at home.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Which Furniture Polish?
Good post Gary, just wanted to add a little tad for those that may not be
aware of some of the waxes attributes.
The Carnuba wax is the harder of the two waxes and the one offering the more
long term protection but, by itself it would be a beast to work with and
buff to a gloss, not impossible but more work then I'd care to do. Mixing it
with the softer bees wax gives the carnuba more workability.
From: Jim & Carol Smithson [smithsonmi at voyager.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 2:59 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Reciporcating saws - what brands?
I am in the market for a reciprocating saw. As with most tools, some brands
are better known for one tool over another. What brand(s) is considered the
best for these saws? Milwaukee? Bosch? Porter-Cable?
Thanks!
Jim
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 9:49 AM
To: CDWeinke at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Reference to Futon Plans
On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:32:57 EST, CDWeinke at aol.com wrote:
>Sometime ago somebody gave a reference to a previous American Woodworker issue
>that had plans for a Futon. In my fervor to clean up all the 'good stuff' my
>daughter had saved to my lonely 500MB drive, I also deleted the files I had
>saved....Does anyone still have it?
>
>Charlie
Sorry that it took this long to get back to you, but I had to through
my mag's. I suspect that what you remembered was posted by me. AFAIK
Americna Woodworker has not published a futon plan. I could not find
one in their index. Here are the ones that I know about.
Woodworker Magazine (1-513-531-2222) Sept/Oct 94 issue. This the one
that I like the best.
Home Woodwork, Jan 96 (this uses the Rockler mechanical system)
Wood Magazine, #86 (Feb, 96) - This one has the the back extended and
shows as a leg under the futon.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 8:29 AM
To: Gary Cavener; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: remove stains from antique quarter-sawn white oak
I got home from my visit to bro & sis, and she's pretty happy. I used 00
steel wool sparingly to remove the finish, then used a q-tip to apply bleach
to the stain. Then I used a cotton rag to get as much bleach residue off
the wood as I could. (I don't know if that was necessary), and used a q-tip
to apply ammonia to the bleached area to match it up with the rest of the
piece. I let that set for a few hours and then rubbed Watco natural into
all of the top. Is it perfect? Nope. It just looks like a very nice 100
yr old antique.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Gary
-snip
Subject: remove stains from antique quarter-sawn white oak
Don and other antique minded folks:
I'm on a short visit with my bro and sis-in-law between Sacramento and
Reno. They have a wonderful old (~100 yrs) quarter sawn white oak
buffet with a inch and a half by 3/8ths burn, not very deep and a couple
of 3-4" rings that I'd like to remove while I'm here. This is too nice
a piece for me to screw up, so any ideas on working them out?
I tried some medium steel wool and it seems to lighten up the whole
area. Gotta stop that!
TIA
Gary Cavener
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 3:40 PM
To: pbonner at enterprise.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Renewing grout
Paul asks "Question. How do you either get the old grout out so that you can
re-grout
the tiles, or clean up the old grouting so that it stays white.???
Paul,
I'm not much of a woodworker, just a wannabe, but have lots of experience with
your problem. I recommend using T.S.P. - trisodium phosphate - which is a
granular cleaner, incredibly effective, which you should be able to find at a
paint or hardware store. The package will list the various concentrations.
Wear gloves, apply with a stiff scrub brush, then rinse thoroughly. The next
product to look for is a grout sealer. This is applied with a slender brush
along the grout lines, following the manufacturers instructions. Simple, huh?
Let us know how well this works for you. Rosie, Roswell,
Georgia, USA
From: tlovelace at austin360.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 4:08 AM
To: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Cc: pbonner at enterprise.net; woodworking at theoak.com; Rosiedoe at aol.com
Subject: Re: Renewing grout
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 6:09 PM
To: cring at concentric.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Report on outdoor finishes
The product/finish that earned top rating is called SIKKENS, (Sikkens), not
Silkens. Just a clarification. I just wish some ethicist out there could
explain why Home Depot, as an example, will tout Thompson's Water Seal so
highly. They sell it by the tractor trailer load. It was ranked 25th, make
that "worst", to Sikkens rank of 1st. And that, my friends, chaps my butt!
Thanks to whoever posted this url from the independent testing lab.
<< http://www.lcwc.com/perform.htm >>
Rosie
From: Sengstake at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:43 PM
To: jhebert at sol.racsa.co.cr; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Report on outdoor finishes
I've used the marine version of Cetol on my boat for over 5 years and have had
wonderful results. If you follow the instructions closely -- get down to bare
wood and use three heavy coats without sanding between coats -- a single
maintenance coat every year or two holds up well. I've had no problems with
mold or the green growth that that is so common here in the Northwest. It's
great stuff and well worth the price.
Bud
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 1998 9:52 AM
To: Sengstake at aol.com
Cc: jhebert at sol.racsa.co.cr; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Report on outdoor finishes
Bud and all;
I have not had time to read all the thread on Sikkens yet but I can say
that your suggestions below to "read and follow the directions carefully
and EXACTLY" are very important no matter what the product is. And don't
assume that every product, no matter how similar you may consider it to
be to the one you used successfully last year can be applied in the same
way.
From: Holmes, Mitch LT DINFOS/JO [HolmesM at dinfos.osd.mil]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 8:31 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Report on outdoor finishes
The answer to your Home Depot question is name recognition. Thompson's
advertises on TV, whereas Sikkens doesn't (at least I don't remember seeing
any ads). Plus Thompson's has probably cut some sort of deal with Home
Depot for exclusivity.
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Rosiedoe at aol.com [mailto:Rosiedoe at aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 9:09 PM
To: cring at concentric.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Report on outdoor finishes
The product/finish that earned top rating is called SIKKENS, (Sikkens), not
Silkens. Just a clarification. I just wish some ethicist out there could
explain why Home Depot, as an example, will tout Thompson's Water Seal so
highly. They sell it by the tractor trailer load. It was ranked 25th, make
that "worst", to Sikkens rank of 1st. And that, my friends, chaps my butt!
Thanks to whoever posted this url from the independent testing lab.
<< http://www.lcwc.com/perform.htm >>
Rosie
From: Duke of URLs (by way of Stephen Bigelow <b2d at execpc.com>) [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Resolved Jigsaw to Realize Sabersaw solutions.
>>I'm debating over getting the new Festo or a Unisaw. After all
>>there's only so much money in one's tool budget.
>I know what you mean. I've been agonizing over a choice between one of
>their electric drills and a Delta 14" floor standing drill press. I
>shouldn't agonize over such trivial amounts. What's another $350?
Gary and I are of course joking but I for one would love a chance at
having and owning a few Festos. Very nice system.
Keith Bohn
From: xanthe lancaster (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [xanthe at concentric.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Resolved Jigsaw to Realize Sabersaw solutions.
So, You got problems? Top surface chip-out? Radius sway out? Straight
line
cuts with a saber saw?...And/or Jigsaw (misnomer). Duh.
Do any of u all have a bandsaw with those little brass bars that keep
the band registered? Do ya, do ya do ya..huh? Well, I found a saber saw,
or jigsaw (misnomer) that has a self centering register that only allows
minimal sway out. Screw Bosch and belt sander rectification. Go Festo.
You want quality of cut, thats the bottom line. Upside down or right on
top of it, you will be overly surprised. I am a saber-saw friek. At the
end of the day, what do you want? A bad investment, or a good cut?
:-)
Xanthe
From: Duke of URLs (by way of Stephen Bigelow <b2d at execpc.com>) [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Resolved Jigsaw to Realize Sabersaw solutions.
>Go Festo. You want quality of cut, thats the bottom line. Upside down or
right on
>top of it, you will be overly surprised. I am a saber-saw friek. At the
>end of the day, what do you want? A bad investment, or a good cut?
>Xanthe
I'm debating over getting the new Festo or a Unisaw. After all
there's only so much money in one's tool budget.
Keith Bohn
P.S. Don't try and back the hook out It'll tear too much flesh.
From: Duke of URLs (by way of Stephen Bigelow <b2d at execpc.com>) [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Resolved Jigsaw to Realize Sabersaw solutions.
Wayne Jones wrote:
>No question Festo is expensive. I bought the plunge saw and vacuum at the
>IWF for a little over $1,000. It is wonderful equipment. After I use it
>for a while, I will try and give everyone some pros and cons.
Ladies and Gentlemen I believe we've just been drive by gloated. Now
according to the "Tom Corey Rules of Gloat" (rec.woodworking edition)
the gloater (Wayne) owes the gloat catcher (me) a portion of the
booty. I'd be happy if he'd offer the chance to co-evaluate this line
of tools. I promise to be fair but really think I'd just end up
wetting myself. Sigh....
Keith Bohn
From: Dick Jarski [jarski at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 7:06 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Restoration and finishing site
Found what I thought would interest anyone regarding restoration and
finishing of antique furniture....quite a bit of informative articles.
http://www.antiquerestorers.com/Articles/furn_articles.htm
Dick Jarski
From: Brian Molinari [*molinari*@tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 4:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Retraction ( was Devilbiss WARNING !!! )
Well, Devilbiss air power came through..... Shortly after I sent my fax to
Devilbiss and posted a copy here, I was contacted by a very nice, caring lady
from Devilbiss. She heard about my problem and wanted to know what model
compressor it was. She also stated she couldn't promise anything. Well this lady
really came through for me. Today I came home and found all the parts to fix my
compressor in my front door, no charge. I just got done writing her a letter
(e-mail) of thanks and figured I should post this retraction. I obviously got
someone having a bad day when I called Devilbiss. I should have thought about
that before I sent the fax but then again, my compressor broke so I was having a
prozac moment myself........ (which isn't uncommon) So, my faith has been
restored with Devilbiss and I figured you all deserved to know.........
Brian........
molinari at tiac.net
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal desease......
From: Steven McCoy [steven.mccoy at spruce.sentrol.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 1:47 PM
To: Kevin McDonald
Cc: Steve Bigelow
Subject: RGR Project Plan
Kevin,
I know you wanted to work on this with me, so I went through the last
schedule that I received and altered it by changing dates and probably
resource responsibility. Items 73 through 85 is new. I know this needs
adjustment, but this is just my first crack at it.
-Steven
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 4:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Ridgid Osc. Sander /was B.O.S.S.
I've been eye balling this sander too. Charlie Self, the woodworking
writer, got a good look at one when he was at the Hardware Show and
gave it a preliminary thumbs up pending actual usage, i.e., it looks
like it would work as advertised. I'm thinking the up side is the
availability of the 4" X 24" belts in a wide range of grits. If you
go to the Web page you'll find a short list of features. It notes
that the belt and platen can be removed to use spindle sleeves in the
following sizes, 1/2", 3/4", 1",1-1/2". I haven't seen a price yet.
One question I have is with the tracking. This is the single bane of
low cost sanders. Will Home Depot take it back if it's a P.O.S.? I
would think they would.
http://www.ridgidvac.com/MainMain.phtml?link=products&himage=headerProducts.gif
For what it's worth Grizzly makes a similar sander listing for around
$180. They note that the spindle function is non-oscillating. I'm
not sure if this is the case with the Ridgid.
http://www.grizzlyimports.com/
Now would some Good Samaritan pleeeeeze go out and buy these and
report back to Andy and me so we know what to do next?
Keith Bohn
From: Ken Mugrage [ken at netadventure.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 11:03 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Right wood to use
I'm planning to make a silverware box for my wife, but I'm not sure what
kind of wood to use.
Normally, I suppose I would use something like Cherry for a project like
this, but in this case, my wife will almost certainly want to paint the box.
So, what's a wood that will last many years, without spending a fortune
(since you won't see the wood anyway)?
Thanks,
Ken
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Mugrage Director of Operations
KenTera's Internet AdVenture Co. http://www.netadventure.net/
(760) 730-7456 ken at netadventure.net
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 11:30 AM
To: Ken Mugrage; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Right wood to use
Pine though you will want a clear pine with no knots or sap pockets and will
want to seal it with a 1lb cut of shellac. Though any fine grained wood
either hard or soft should do you.
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 12:36 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Right wood to use
Personally I would use Tulip Poplar for this application. It is much
stronger than pine, particularly with regard to denting resistance. Tulip
Poplar is low cost (for a hardwood), plentiful, and a pleasure to work with.
Some people don't like it's tendency towards a greenish colored heart wood,
but this is of no consequence if you are painting it.
By the way, by controlled exposure to sunshine that green can be turned a
lovely medium brown. I like the look myself, but this is a matter of
personal taste.
John H.
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 1:09 PM
To: ken at netadventure.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Right wood to use
Hey Ken-- If the customer (SWMBO) wants to PAINT (ugh) the box , the material
that comes to my mind is Poplar. It's heavy ,somewhat hard, usually free of
knots, and relatively inexpensive. I pay $1.90 a bdft here in Indiana and and
have no difficulty with supplies. The green cast to the sap wood makes the
material unsuitable for staining. So painting is the finish of choice. Good
luck.
Bob A Indiana
mrasp at aol.com
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 2:04 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Right wood to use
Ken:
John has given you some good advice, however if popular in not easy
to get in your area you many also consider maple. Given this is a
silverware box it will take a fair of abuse just in handling. As John
pointed out, it is well worth using a hard wood for dent resistance.
Also I have shot both popular and maple with pigmented lacquer and it
really give it a nice finish.
Ken Martin
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 3:26 PM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Right wood to use
Agreed completely. Maple would make a fine, and in fact a higher quality
choice for the intended project given it's even greater impact strength than
poplar. Around here maple is more expensive than poplar, but upon
reflection the quantity of wood used to build a silverware box makes the
cost per bdft a relatively small consideration.
John
From: Mike Hatlak [mikehatlak at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Rite of Passage
Hello again All,
After reading an enticing article on the history of woodworking
and apprenticeships thereof, I decided that perhaps it was time to
experience the so called baptism of fire and perform the same rite that
so many other fledgling woodworkers were constrained to do. I shall
build my tool till, and submit it for examination by the powers that be.
That be's you folks. You shall decide my fate in the future of my chosen
art form. If you PASS me then I shall continue on, safe in the
acceptance of my peers. If you should FAIL me, I will withdraw from
woodworking, take up typewriter maintenance, and ship all my tools off
the Steve Garbini. So there it is, our collective challenge. Of course,
any and all suggestions will be welcome and anxiously received.
I have decided to build the chest out of Zebrawood and Walnut
with some Hard Maple accents. I have purchased the Zebrawood, boy that
stung, and am allowing it to acclimatize before beginning. I am going to
assemble all the tools which are to be housed within the chest and
arrange them so I can tell exactly how many drawers, how large each is,
and how deep each need be. I shall flock line the drawers and all tools
will be cookie cutter style stored. I am hoping someone out there has
some insight into finishing Zebrawood. As I proceed, I will post photo's
upon a web site which I will provide for you at a later date so you can
follow along with the progress. Please sound off as the spirit moves
you. Love to hear any and all thoughts. By the way, if this is deemed a
waste of bandwidth. please let me know and I will desist doing this
publicly.
thanks to all,
best wishes,
mike hatlak
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 7:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Rite of Passage
Mike builds a tool box...
At the risk of this backfiring and you seeing what's at the other end
of this URL and hurling yourself face forward into a Rubbermaid
plastic tool tote I submit the following in hopes that it inspires
you.
http://www.si.edu/nmah/ve/toolbox/piano.html
For something a little more down to earth that we mere mortals can
build see these pages.
http://www.si.edu/nmah/ve/toolbox/index.html#map
http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/toolchest/toolchest.htm
http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/projects/toolchest/tchestie.htm
One thought if I may. Use the alternate woods sparingly with the
"less is more" school of thought in mind.
If you don't yet have the Tool Box book by Jim Tolpin, get it. Pages
upon pages of inspiration.
Good luck,
Keith Bohn
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 8:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Rite of Passage
(Forgot to send to list yesterday)
----------
From: Todd Burch
To: mikehatlak at sprintmail.com
Subject: RE: Rite of Passage
Date: November 5, 1998 7:20PM
Mike,
----------
>After reading an enticing article on the history of woodworking
>and apprenticeships thereof, I decided that perhaps it was time to
>experience the so called baptism of fire and perform the same rite that
>so many other fledgling woodworkers were constrained to do.
You're gonna come sweep my shop?
>I shall build my tool till,
Oh...
>and submit it for examination by the powers that be. That be's you folks.
You shall >decide my fate in the future of my chosen art form. If you PASS
me then I shall >continue on, safe in the acceptance of my peers. If you
should FAIL me, I will >withdraw from woodworking, take up typewriter
maintenance,
Consider writing too... We know you can write.
>and ship all my tools off to Steve Garbini.
Does Steve's vote count then?
>So there it is, our collective challenge. Of >course, any and all
suggestions will be >welcome and anxiously received.
Shall we grade you on the finished product, or will you tell us your plans
and then we grade you on how well you stuck to and executed those plans?
Kinda like turning a leg. Easy to make one, tough to make 4 alike. What
determines pass/fail?
>I have decided to build the chest out of Zebrawood and Walnut
>with some Hard Maple accents. I have purchased the Zebrawood, boy that
>stung, and am allowing it to acclimatize before beginning. I am going to
>assemble all the tools which are to be housed within the chest and
>arrange them so I can tell exactly how many drawers, how large each is,
>and how deep each need be.
Why do you keep all your tools disassembled? Seriously though, is this
chest gonna be a "looker" or a "user"? Since it sounds like you will be
using drawers primarily, I take it this will not be a "blanket chest" style
tool box, but more of a "chest of drawers" style tool chest. Will you be
going for the cover of "The Toolbox Book, Part 2"?
>I shall flock line the drawers
Does this stuff actually hold up over time?
>and all tools will be cookie cutter style stored.
Another term for "french fit"?
>I am hoping someone out there has some insight into finishing Zebrawood.
Mike, Mike, Mike. Well, if you are in a test here, no wait, the "Rite of
Passage" test, I take off 1 point for asking for help here...
>As I proceed, I will post photo's upon a web site which I will provide for
you at a later >date so you can follow along with the progress. Please sound
off as the spirit moves
>you. Love to hear any and all thoughts.
Great! I'd like to see more of this.
>By the way, if this is deemed a waste of bandwidth. please let me know and
I will >desist doing this publicly.
Hey, you sound like the kind of guy that can laugh at himself. Thick
skinned. Knows how to take a joke. Able to take public critisism sitting
down. Not afraid to slap somebody upside the head when they really need it.
The kind of guy that tests the water before he jumps in. .... by the way,
you are a guy aren't you?
Todd (a guy) Burch, Houston, Texas. Feeling kinda weird, forgot my
Metabolife this morning.
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:14 AM
To: mikehatlak at sprintmail.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Rite of Passage
Mike;
If you are going to this much trouble, instead of flocking, why not use
the real stuff, i.e., felt lining. You can get felt that is
"unprocessed", i.e., still has some lanolin in it, which should work
very well. Plus, if you ever need to change it, rip out the old stuff
and put in new.I've always had problems with flocking, but thats me,
thus YMMV!
OTOH, I think this is a great idea. Mine is coming along, but has a
ways to go (if I can ever get past the plumbers and into my shop!).
Zebrawood is a pain to work, but its sure pretty! Before starting I
would look at the ones made a century or more ago, and see how they
arranged everything. The Smithsonian web site (American History?) had
a bunch of chests and tils up, good inspiration.
I'd love to see the progress as you go along.
Gary
>and how deep each need be. I shall flock line the drawers and all tools
>will be cookie cutter style stored. I am hoping someone out there has
>some insight into finishing Zebrawood. As I proceed, I will post photo's
>upon a web site which I will provide for you at a later date so you can
>follow along with the progress. Please sound off as the spirit moves
>you. Love to hear any and all thoughts. By the way, if this is deemed a
>waste of bandwidth. please let me know and I will desist doing this
>publicly.
>
>thanks to all,
>best wishes,
>mike hatlak
>
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Rite of Passage
Mike,
Some replies between your lines. Sorry for the style, but I actually
have to "go to work" today, to some distant extraneous source. For what
the woods look like, please wait till I have time to put these into
words.
> > Mike,
> >
> > You're a clown.
...That was a compliment relating to the fact you toyed with calling
this subject "off-subject". But you knew that.
would probably include companion work in the best ten
> > shops of this distinguished list, within a four thousand mile
> > quadrant... :0)
>
> If only we could, eh?
...I'm working on that, or should I say "I'm DREAMING of that". No
this is not an imminent threat to some, no need to beef up the shop
locks just yet. The very few I might call upon such favor would be
nurtured month in advance with kegs of Guiness, French Chocolates,
Calissons d'Aix and Petits Fours, and 100 bdft of the non-endangered
wood of their choice. Upon my graduating Cum Laude from their
establishment, I would remit a custom engraved Nacre toted
Bubinga/Lignum Vitae Lie-Nielsen # 62. ...Somebody recognizes himself
here?
> Alas, I am one to work with very little hard copy. It is a fault I admit, but
> true none the less. I am working on the dimensions now.
Me too. No paper but plenty of computer when it's too "steppy" for my
brain to pack around the shop. I have about a 3 year's computer backlog
of stuff to build one day or experiment with. Usually great looking
ideas propped up on the move, getting drunk over Java because I'm away
from home. Only problem is my taste has changed, rendering most of the
backlog obsolete. Moral is to build stuff instead of backlogs. Duhhh.
> Have never seen any of these, except Padouk, what do they look like?
Yew has abyssal amber to it. Well finished it is very deep and has
white gold reflections to it. I thought of Yew because there is some
nearby, I heard without being told where. Padouk is very rich, it's a
beautiful Orange when unfinished and its working properties remind me of
a cross between Teak and Mahogany, from what I can tell with the only
time I worked on it. I love it's grain, reminds me of a lady I once
knew. Lacewood is very, well, lacey. The grain is as even as Oryx
leather and kind of looks like elongated rice paper, only the rice would
be much closer and unidirectional. Mild tones, prominent sheen. I like
Zebrawood but am fonder of Giraffewood.
>
> I admit to selecting woods according to local availability. The base box will
> be Zebrawood which I love the look of. The rest is open.
...Same here, and I try not to buy. I'd maker an exception for my chest
though when I get to it. I won't overload and make it some gargantuan
wood sampler but will invest in wood since it'll be the only one. My
chest will be mostly a show piece as it'd be of no use in the shop. But
it's what I'd take on the road where some prestige or long distances are
involved. Also can use it to cheat on airlines load limit. If the
"package" has wheels (Paris subway tunnels are miles long), strong
leather backpack straps and fits in the plane, I can probably put 100
lbs in it if I need to. My idea of a chest is "yacht" style, has a
central row of flat pulls (no protruding knobs) and no front drawers but
plateaux (plattens?) that slide out on the sides, butterfly style so to
speak, around dowels/hardwood hinges (Lignum Vitae? ...just kidding).
> I was thinking about oils. How do you feel about that? Wax? Absolutely!
...Yep.
> Absolutely, Garret Wade solid corners, for this chest. Also Brass hinges,
> drawer pulls, and handles.
...Not seen those but I imagine the look.
> Yes, French Fit, in wood.
...hum, well, huh, I really have no clue to what "French Fit" might
be. To me it's persona causticity. Seriously, if French Fit is like
French Kiss, then it's totally British.
> > There, Blah Blah, I'd make sure the "vital space" of each tool
> > is respected and harmonious. Blah Blah.
>
> Excelent idea, and thank you, I will take your advice. I do respect my tools,
> greatly.
...You wekum. I plan on shaving my head first and then spending 1/2 the
required number of weeks on space definition and arrangement.
>
> You are right, of course, but something seems appropriate about the toddler
> thing.....
....Double humor is double reward.
Anyway, I can see a 1/8 recess for each tool with Ash (spring) loaded
EVA foam blocks compressing from the top as my butterfly drawers go in.
My japanese saws, by the way, would be vertical in the back. Chisels
and turning tools on top, then Planes, then
measuring/calibrating/dividing/gaging instruments, then what I forget,
then hammers and heavies. Weight distribution is very important but I'd
have to take shortcuts there for aesthetics.
>
> I am going to build a roll around base so the chest can follow me through the
> shop.
...Recessed (hidden) mini non turning casters which only roll as you
lift just right?
I will publish
> photographs of the drawers and the tools within as this develops. OK?
...Oh yeah! ....Ok, ok ok ok Ok! (Insert Joe Pesci's nose accent here)
<Snip here and somewhere above>
Frederik
From: Stephen Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 9:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Rite of Passage
This may be a little too late, but I was just digging through my stack of
Woodsmith mags and came across Vol. 15 No. 85 (Feb. 1993). Low and behold,
on the front cover was a seven drawer cabinetmaker's tool chest.
Realizing that this may not be exactly what was asked for, it still may
have some good ideas in it. If you are lucky, your local library may have
a copy of this issue. If not, I can scan it in and post it temporarily on
my web site, if so requested.
Please note that if I do scan it in, it won't be the highest quality,
because this is a photocopy of that issue. (Wanted the back issue - didn't
want it bad enough to pay the asking price).
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 5:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Rite of Passage UPDATE
Mike,
Sounds like a great idea Mike. Interesting update.
If this is going to be the first time the Tooth Fairy hears of
Lie-Nielsen, make sure she arrests her gaze on the Low-Angle Jack, # 62.
Some blubber on yours & mine mushrooming chests.
When I design anything myself, meaning an original that wasn't inspired
by someone else's idea or a picture, I like to visualize the project.
Once I'm set on my design, I'll just make believe it's been buyilt long
ago and I'm now admiring it as well as using it. So, I'll "look" at it
everytime I pass by the intended spot in the house. You'd be surprised
to see how many make-believe "mistakes" pop up, new functionality and
design changes arise.
I use a simple draw program to get my main look, proportions and
symmetries, stock and joint choices, and material sheets ready. I keep
it fairly simple so it doesn't take as much time as building will be.
That assumes imagination to "visualize" it well on the computer but
doesn't overburden with details which would kill spontaneity once at the
bench. Coreldraw years ago, now it's simply Word, which draw program is
extremely fast and well suited to my needs. Just lines, shapes and
textures. For my chest, I intend to play endlessly with my lines on the
Puter, showing/hidden joints, color choices (wood species), facades
thicknesses and organizations, blah blah blah.
In deciding for placement and projection of your doors/drawers ...have
you considered the computer?
Frederik
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 8:34 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Robertson Screw Patent
To All;
Thanks to someone on the list who posted the site of the Milton
Historical Society - home of the original Robertson Screw I now have a
copy of P.L. Inventor of the Robertson Screw. The book was launched on
October 25, 1998.
The text of the patent, which was granted on Feb. 2, 1909 is included
but tool historian, Jim Packham of Toronto wrote a ten page article on
P.L. in the sept. 1997 issue of Yesterday's Tools and the book contains
some observations from that article.
Mr. Packham describes the head configuration in easy to understand terms
as follows:
"The recess is shaped with square cross-sections having three distinct
stages. The deepest is an inverted pyramid with the sides about 45
degrees from the vertical; the second and largest stage has very
slightly sloping sides (about 2 degrees) and the third stage again has
sides sloping about 45 degrees - effectively a chamfer at the edge of
the recess."
The patent says the taper is formed by "sides that flat and equal in
area and inwardly slightly converge" but does not put an angle on them.
As we have seen in recent pieces in Wood magazine and from McFeelys this
angle is from 0.5 degrees to 1.5 degrees and Packham says it is 2
degrees.
I sent off a letter to Robertson Whitehouse the present name of the
company (but soon to become Robertson Inc.) and included all the posts
on theoak at that time for their comments.
I would like to know where to get a copy of the Packham article. I
expect someone on the list gets Yesterdays Tools. If so could they
contact me.
Another development that came out of our discussion was my discovery
that for a few years there was a company in the USA who made square
recess ball drive screwdrivers. They seem to have quit the line, likely
because there was not enough interest in the concept.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 4:41 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Robertson Screw Patent
Hi Harvey
was this actually a square ball driver or the Bondhus Tool Co of
Monticello, MN ball allen key?
I wonder if Bonhus still make them, they are great for when you
can't get right in line with the screw.
Andy dissapointed with his dust collector in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 5:41 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Robertson Screw Patent
Hi, Harvey:
A friend of mine has a set of those ball tip Robertson screwdrivers,
but I have no idea where he got them. I have used them at his house,
and you can get a solid grip on the screw even with the screwdriver
tipped 15 - 20 degrees off the axis of the screw.
Good Luck!
Bob Hamilton
Forest, Ontario
>Another development that came out of our discussion was my discovery
>that for a few years there was a company in the USA who made square
>recess ball drive screwdrivers. They seem to have quit the line, >likely because there was not enough interest in the concept.
From: Wajih Ireifej [wireifej at baystone.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Robland combination machine (X31)
To all:
I am thinking about buying the robland combination machine. I am
interested in any feedback (positive or negative) from people who have used
this machine.
Regards
wajih
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Rockwell / Delta Homecraft Table Saw
Warning: Shameless Auction Gloat:
I'm starting to feel a bit like the dog who chased cars and then found
himself with the dilemma of what to do when he finally caught one.
On Monday I went to a preview for an auction to be held on Tuesday.
It was the contents of two estates. Based on the inventory it was
pretty apparent that these two men had been long time putzers. In the
"big tool" category there was a bench top "no-name" drill press and a
Rockwell/Delta Homecraft 8" tablesaw sans the 4" jointer. You may
know this machine. It was originally introduced in the 20s and
consisted of the saw and jointer sharing a common stand and motor.
The motor had a double pulley with one belt up to each machine. I'm
guessing the saw was built post-war and pre-60s.
Anyway, I previewed the auction. There were boxes of tools in varying
degrees of decay along with some stuff in like new condition. I blew
it off but changed my mind on Tuesday when I returned to put in proxy
bids on some stuff. I couldn't attend the auction because of an
AutoCAD class that night, by the way. In particular I wanted one of
two close quarter drills that were listed. One was an older Makita
that was unused still in the box. The other was a slightly used B&D
Professional. I bid $25 for each. In passing I also put in a bid on
a B&D Professional laminate trimmer. It actually looked as if it had
been used. I put $25 on it also. I went a little sweet over the
Homecraft saw and put in a bid of $75 for it. When I left I had
pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I really low balled the
hand tools and thought "maybe" I'd get the saw.
Wednesday I got the call that I was the proud owner of a laminate
trimmer and a table saw. Goodie! Laminate trimmers run in the $100
range for new and I'm damned happy to get one for $25. The saw on the
other hand takes a little justifying. The motor is a Craftsman
King-Seely era 1 hp with the cast housing. This isn't one of those
contrived hp ratings Sears is using now days. I'm figuring it's worth
$25 plus or minus. Also supplied with the saw was the Delta Auto-Set
Miter Gage with the double screw hold down. If I can believe an old
Delta price list this should be worth around $50 used. Probably
closer to $25 in the real world? So based on that I can spin this to
look like I got the saw for $25. I forgot about the base. Nice
little 50s era welded heavy steel angle iron thing. Worth? Not bad
but let's face facts and admit that the saw will require something to
get it usable as in it's a itty-bitty thing and really isn't even in
league with the contractor's saw. It's really a bench top saw on
steroids. It will make a good "extra" saw or could see use as a
dedicated dado machine after I stumble across the $300 Unisaw at a
later auction. In the mean time I'm considering a ho-made Rousseau
type stand for the saw to expand it's use. It's a tilt table so this
set up would make it useless for bevels. I'm going to mull this over
and in the mean time concentrate on getting it cleaned up.
Old tools and auctions. Better than heroin. sigh...
Keith Bohn
From: Jonathan A. Learned [jonathan.learned at the-spa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 11:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: routa crafta
I have been the sometimes reluctant owner of the Sears router crafter for
several years. I have not really used it that much, save for making knobs
and a couple of roped spindles. In my humble opinion, anyone would be
better served spending their money on a lathe. The infernal contraption is
rather complicated to learn to use and I have never been happy with the
quality of the finish cut.
Still, I don't have room for a lathe in my shop and on the rare occasion I
have to use this tool it comes down from the shelf and mounts easily on my
bench. An hour or two and a couple of practice pieces later and i'm ready
to go.
Also beware that the user will often be changing bits and readjusting
thereafter. A lot more time consuming than grabbing the next parting tool
or gouge! Of course any of the bits used on the crafter cannot be of the
variety with bearings, and I have not always been succesfull finding those
that I need. Perhaps I have not been looking in the right places.
In it's favor though, the router crafter can do some interesting things.
Reeding, fluting, roping, crosshatching, tapering, and just about
everything a lathe can do except bowls I suppose.
Hope that helps you Tom.
Jon Learned
L-N rules!
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 1:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
Hi, Jonathan:
Most of the things the Router Crafter is intended to do cannot be
done on a lathe without some very elaborate jigging, in effect turning
the lathe into a Router Crafter. Spirals, barley twists,
crosshatching, fluting and reeding all require that the spindle is
either held motionless while the cutter moves, or moves a relatively
small amount (1 or 2 revolutions) as the cutter moves the full length
of the area to be worked. None of this is standard lathe work. A
lathe can only make things like beads and coves (or variations
thereof) around the circumference of the spindle, not along its
length. Your message kind of left the impression (with me,anyway)
that you thought turning spirals, twists, etc. was a fairly basic
lathe operation. Believe me, it is not.
Just wanted to clarify that.
Bob Hamilton
From: Jonathan A. Learned [jonathan.learned at the-spa.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:11 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: routa crafta
please allow me to clarify. It was never my intention to imply that
reeding, spiraling, etc. were easy operations on a standard lathe. What I
was trying to convey was that the router crafter can also perform
traditional turned work as well as some of the other fancier things. In
fact, the router crafter is probably the way to go if you want to do any
spiraling, reeding, fluting work-As long as the piece isn't too big. I
would'nt try any of that on a pencil-post bed stile!
I remember an article I beleive was in AW 'bout a year ago. There is a
fellow in Kentucky who uses one of these contraptions to make some really
impressive walking sticks. He had put extension rails on and pretty much
doubled the working area. He had some sort of work support rigged up too.
Now I've gotta go find that issue, that work support sure would come in
handy next time I run a batch of small knobs!
Jon Learned
long live Thomas L-N
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
>I sure wish I knew what a "Router Crafter" was.
Watch what you wish for, you may get it.
http://shop.sears.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/;execmacro/dispProdsSCS.d2w/report?prrfnbr=10338&prmenbr=6970
Keith Bohn
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 11:26 AM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
Bruce and all;
If you want precision spiralling, check out the Robert Sorbey page at
http://www.robert-sorby.uk.com and see what real spiralling looks like.
We recently tested their innovative spiraling tool and it works like a
charm. The tool, like a regular turning chisel or gouge, has a slot for
a geared cutting wheel (four of them included) that will give variations
in the spiral. A flat surface (adjustable) for the tool rest is scaled
in degrees to give you variations on the tightness of the spiral.
Graham
From: Ron Winger [rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 9:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
Bruce,
A Routa Crafta is in fact a Sears Craftsman Very Rube Goldberg device that
resembles what you describe in your first post. All for only $199 (or
there abouts). I have one my dad left....he played with it, I tried, to
please him. I reckon for a once in a while thing, it would do the
trick...but practice, quite a bit on cheap stuff, FIRST!
Regard,
Ron Winger aka/Bearcat
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 7:09 AM
To: Bruce Gowens; Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
I have had a Router Crafter for the past 15 years and it is a good tool,
but, as many have said, time consuming. It does a good job on spirals. It
has to be set up properly, but, once it is, it works well.
John
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 5:45 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: routa crafta
>Excellent advice, but I couldn't make out much from the
>picture at the refered site. So... What _is_ a "Router
>Crafter"?
Bruce, I'm not sure where you're physically located but I can only
recommend that you muster up the intestinal fortitude and enter a
Sears store to view one close up.
Keith Bohn
P.S. While you're there have them show you the mechanics tool box
with the remote control lock. This has to be a suggestion from Bob Vila.
P.P.S. In case someone thinks I'm making this up to rip on Sears, I'm
not. My hand to Gad it actually exists.
P.P.P.S. Oh, one other thing, while there look over the Gen-U-Wine
oak veneer and MDF machinist's tool chest. You will find this
somewhat cathartic as you cast you gaze upon the box joints and
exposed MDF core. Your stomach will churn but take heart because
you'll also rationalize that under no circumstance will you ever place
yourself in the position of turning out something as pitiful as this.
It truly is the black velvet Elvis painting of fine woodworking.
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 6:46 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Router Bearings
Hi all,
After 3-1/2 years of fairly heavy table use, the bearings in my Freud
FT2000E router finally let go. I'm regarding this as normal maintenance
because of the use I've given it, but I thought some of you might be
interested in my experiences. The job isn't quite done yet, but I
should get to test it tomorrow.
The tiny assembly drawing in the Freud manual makes my old eyes hurt and
is difficult to interpret, with all the offset views. However, I tend
to be fearless when taking apart machines, so I plunged right in (pun
intended). Actually, removing the plunge mechanism is the first step,
and it is not that straightforward. It would appear that unscrewing the
big adjustment knob would release the whole plunge assembly. However,
although it doesn't look it, the top of the adjusting knob pops off, and
there is a screw at the bottom that must be taken out to release the
plunge assembly.
Next comes collet removal (easy) and removal of the spring loaded shaft
lock. The three screws are multi function, quite tight, and two of them
serve as pivots for the shaft lock return springs. Then the base can be
pried from the body, which will pull the rear bearing out of the housing
at the upper end of the body. The brushes will snap inwards as the base
and armature are pulled out. Holding the brushes in position when
reassembling will be a challenge.
I was able to remove the front bearing by supporting the back of the
base on wooden blocks, and hammering on a large drift punch inserted in
the end of the shaft. The rear bearing resisted all efforts to remove
it in a similar manner and with a cheap bearing puller. Now I was able
to examine the bearings, which are SKF and made in France. SKF is a
time honored name, and I've been aware of them and using their products
since I've been aware of bearings. Score one for Freud - they didn't
use cheap, no-name bearings to save a couple of bucks.
Thanks to this list, I didn't go looking for a Freud service center to
buy bearings. As has been suggested many times, I looked in the yellow
pages for a local bearing shop, and to my surprise found one about 10
miles away. Bearings and armature in hand, I went there this morning
with serious doubts about finding French bearings for an Italian router
in a local shop. To my delight, they had SKF bearings with the
identical model numbers in stock. They even took a new high quality
bearing puller off the display rack and removed the stubborn back
bearing for me. The total cost for both bearings was $18, and I suspect
that I would have waited a week and paid twice as much ordering them
from Freud.
I started reassembly today, but couldn't finish it. At the back end of
the shaft is a plastic encased sensor for the variable speed control
that has to be removed to replace the rear bearing. It is glued in
place, and the bond must be broken to remove it. I replaced the
bearings successfully, and then reglued the sensor. I cleaned the
surfaces and decided to use polyurethane glue to join the plastic to the
metal. Recalling that polyurethane needs moisture to cure, I wiped the
end of the shaft with a damp rag before glueing. At the end of the
afternoon, I noted a little bubbly squeeze out, which is characteristic
of a polyurethane glue setting properly.
I'd do it again, and probably will in a few years when the new bearings
wear out. However, this is not a job for the faint of heart. My shop
time invested will be about 5 hours, and that will probably drop to 3
the second time around. A pro shop could probably do it in 2, but I
suspect that replacing the bearings would be at least half the cost of
the router. If anyone made it this far, I'd like to hear from others
who have put heavy use on big table mounted routers. Was my bearing
failure premature, or is this normal wear and tear as I suspect?
Encouraged by my current experience, my next project will be
resurrecting my 40 year old PC 150 router, which also has bad bearings.
After doing a big plunge router, that little fixed base one should be a
piece of cake. Regards,
Gerald
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:36 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Bearings
Gerald,
As you stated the router had good quality bearings so who knows.I
have had a Porter Cable 3 1/2 hp vs plunge router in a table for
abround 8 years now and have head no problems with it yet.I say around
8 years but am not really sure.I bought it shortly after they came out
with them.
Maybe I was lucky and you were not.Or maybe your router was made on a
Friday.Alot of the people on this list seem to think we're nuts for
putting a plunge router in a table anyhow.I disagree.
Mike Bridges
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 5:02 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Bearings
Hi all,
To finish the story I started yesterday, the big Freud router is once
again in place under the table and running perfectly. Here's a few
additional details for those of you who own the same router.
The tiny assembly drawing is not only difficult to read and confusing.
It is actually wrong in a couple of places regarding the attachment of
the adjusting knob. It seems that a formerly used spring has been
replaced with an "O" ring and a compression nut. I damaged that nut
during disassembly, but fortunately had the right metric tap to restore
the threads.
Getting the brushes past the speed sensor, rear bearing and up on the
armature was less of a hassle than I expected, but still not easy.
Machines that permit removal of the brushes prior to disassembly are a
lot easier to service. I also inadvertantly removed the depth lock
knob, which isn't necessary for the bearing replacement job I did.
Getting the return spring back in place was a real hassle during
reassembly.
My biggest concern when I turned it on was whether the speed control
would work properly after reattaching the shaft end sensor. It works
flawlessly.
I won't bore the group with more details, but if anyone is contemplating
a similar job, I can probably save you half the time by guiding you
through the process. Regards,
Gerald
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 5:51 PM
To: The OAK
Subject: Router Bit Selection and Use
Hi gang,
following up on the B-B-Q debate I decided to spend a little time
looking for info from manufacturers. Not too successfull so far but a
couple of sites nhave yielded this
http://www.jesada.com/australia/instructions/speilman_instructions.html
which I think addresses the original question in part.
Food for thought,
Geoff
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: gdmorgan (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Router Table
Hi All,
just a note to let you know I have added a page on my home made
router table to my site. Not full plans unfortunately as I have not
obtained permission to use them.
Geoff.
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: Geoff Potter [gpotte at ibm.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:22 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Router table bit depth
I have what appears to be a rather simple question but I need to ask any
way. I recently installed a new Freud 2000 router in my just finished
router table. My mount plate is approx 1/2" thick and plate from router
was 3/16". Do I pull bit out of collet to make up difference or is this
a no-no? That 5/16" makes a big difference in setup. TIA,
Geoff Potter
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 4:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router table bit depth
The practice of using a router in a table environment dictates that one
removes the router's base plate and attaches the router directly to the
insert.
Joe
If I had some ham I'd have ham and eggs, if I had the eggs
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 5:53 PM
To: gpotte at ibm.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router table bit depth
Geoff;
It is my understanding that Freud Recommends that 3/4" of the bit shaft
be chucked in the collett. This is what I do and have never had a
problem.
Graham
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 9:29 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Router table bit depth
Geoff, some people misunderstood you and believe that you have both the
thickness of your insert and the thickness of the original base to
contend with. As I understand it, you removed the base, and the
difference in thickness between the insert and the base is 5/16". Help
is available.
I also use a Freud FT2000 under a table. The length of the collet is
1", which provides a very secure hold. However, it doesn't get any more
secure if you extend the shaft of the bit below the bottom of the
collet. I just checked my 1/2" shaft bits, and the clear length is
1-5/16". There's the 5/16" you wanted. To use it consistently, buy
some small "O" rings that you have to stretch to get on the shaft. Set
them 1" up from the bottom, and they will stop the bit when it reaches
the proper depth. Even if you don't use them as depth stops, the "O"
rings are a good idea because they keep the radiused part of the shaft
from entering the collet, which can cause insecure clamping.
Graham said that Freud considers 3/4" engagement acceptable. I'm too
tired to dig out the manual now, but if that is true, you just gained
another 1/4". You made a good choice. I'm not alone in my opinion that
the best router for use under the table is the Freud FT2000. Access to
the power switch is very convenient, and the depth (height) adjustment
is easy and precise. Regards,
Gerald
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:28 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: Gerald Mayer; Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: Router table bit depth
Gary and all;
I own the PC five speed #75182. With the motor dropped down as far as
it will go the collet will project about 3/8" through the 1/4" thick
base plate. This means you can bolt the router base to the underside of
a piece of 3/4" MDF or plywood with no recessing or anything.
I know this because I did it over the weekend for a friend who has the
same router and a sagging 1/4" plexiglass router plate. The 5/16" tapped
holes for the bolts go right through the base so you can use 1 1/2"
bolts and have a really solid job.
I have no idea if the PC plunge router brother of mine can be done in
the same way.
I am planning on doing a new router table and it will be made with a
recess in the 3/4" material to accept a 1/4" router base plate so I have
the guide bushing hole. Below the guide bushing hole the table will be
drilled out to 3 1/2". The base will be bolted on below the table top.
I will make several different inserts to replace the router base plate
to allow different size holes in the table but they will all be bolted
solid when in use.
My top will be 3/4" solid Formica - no sag there.
I have no idea if the PC is the only one that the collet will project
that far through the base plate but it is obviously a good feature IMHO.
Harvey
From: Jake [jakej at bellsouth.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 2:37 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; John Covert
Subject: Re: router table plan
Forgot to include the URL.
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/7_10johnsrtab1.html
Happy Holidays,
Jake
-----Original Message-----
From: John Covert <covert at buffnet.net>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 10:32 AM
Subject: router table plan
>Some time ago there was a message sent to the group the contained a link
>with plans for building a router table. The table was enclosed and
>contained some drawers (I think). I have lost the link and am wondering if
>anyone happened to save it and could sent it to me.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
>
From: John Covert [covert at buffnet.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 1998 4:00 PM
To: Jake
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: router table plan
Hi Jake,
The table by Joe Johns was the one I was thinking about....
Thanks alot.
John
At 04:36 PM 11/28/1998 -0600, you wrote:
>Forgot to include the URL.
>http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/7_10johnsrtab1.html
>
>Happy Holidays,
>Jake
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 5:44 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: router table plan
>Some time ago there was a message sent to the group the contained a link
>with plans for building a router table. The table was enclosed and
>contained some drawers (I think). I have lost the link and am wondering if
>anyone happened to save it and could sent it to me.
I'm sure this was replied to but I was going through my bookmarks
doing some house cleaning and well I was bored...
You'll find a number of pages don't have plans per se but a lot of
good ideas that could be incorporated into a nice table.
http://web.wa.net/~chad/rtable1.jpg
http://web.wa.net/~chad/rtable2.jpg
http://web.wa.net/~chad/rtable3.jpg
http://web.wa.net/~chad/rtable4.jpg
http://www.planrite.com/WC/GArchive98/7_10johnsrtab1.html
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9702HIWSP.html
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9701HITOM.html
http://homearts.com/pm/shoptalk/02toolb8.htm
http://www.csolve.net/~jessem/
http://woodmagazine.com/compstor/plans/files/routertop.html
http://www.inland.net/~jsolie/rt.html
http://www.am-wood.com/march98/router.html
http://www.ssug.org/members/RichKleinhenz/index.htm
http://members.aol.com/calfisher/table.jpg
http://www.wood-worker.com/plans/router/index.htm
Keith Bohn
From: Bill Mutschler [sawdust_books at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 6:44 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: router table plan
John,
I am just going through posts from the last week. Your question has
probably been answered already but just in case it has not...there are
a couple of router table plans on my site at
http://members.xoom.com/sawdustbooks/html/plans.html
They are listed on the project plan page under "projects for the shop".
The best of the bunch is the plan by Joe Johns.
Enjoy,
Bill Mutschler
From: MCG [mcg at pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 8:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Router Table, take 2
Thanks for the feedback on building a router table top. I may yet build
my own, but I also did a little shopping around. Sears is selling a new
Craftsman router table. The bench-top is $110, and the freestanding
unit is $170. This includes the fence, plus push shoe and other
accessories. Anyone own this thing? Looking for feedback. I went to
Sears to look at it, and it felt fairly solid. It also has extensions
on both sides, so it isn't as small as say a Porter Cable table, or for
that matter an older Sears model. If you have the new 98-99 catalog,
it's on 127. Model #s are 25484 and 25483 (benchtop).
If any of you happen to be in a Sears store in the near future, could
you look at this thing for me? I don't want to sink all that $$$ into a
lemon.
NOTE: Let me reply in advance to all the Craftsman haters. Some of us
simply cannot afford all that gold-plated stuff on the market (Incra,
Delta Unisaws, Freud blades, etc), and every so often Sears sells a good
product for the money. So please spare us all, and keep it to
yourselves. I am only looking for a buy/no buy recommendation, not an
earful of your indignation. Thanks
From: Richard Funnell [rfunnell at pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:29 PM
To: MCG; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
I am far from an expert on these machines, but I wasn't impressed by the
Craftsman table. It seemed lightly built and used a non-standard mitre
slot (a nit, perhaps, but not a good sign). I ended up buying the Rebel
table. Very solid at a slightly higher price (normal list is $200).
I really don't like the two fence pieces, so I added a bunch of hardware
and wood to make the fence adjustable but always straight, with built-in
rails for Board Buddies. It now weighs almost as much as the table, but
early indications are I'm really going to like it. It's 30" long (the
table is 24"), adjustable and extremely solid.
The router (Dewalt 625; not a lightweight) is mounted to an aluminum insert
that is screwed to the table. It stays dead true that way, and I've found
I can change the bits without taking it out. I'm now building a cabinet to
raise the table to working altitude, giving me 3 storage drawers in the
process.
If I was you, I'd buy another table, even if I had to kneel down to use it
for a while. That said, I've used a smaller Craftsman table for many
years. Whatever works within the budget.
Richard
From: Rob Bye [specter at escape.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:27 PM
To: MCG; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
>Sears is selling a new Craftsman router table. The bench-top is $110, and
the freestanding unit is $170. This includes the fence, plus push shoe and
other accessories.
I'm somewhat familiar with this router table. I plan to purchase the
freestanding unit, myself. It seems much superior to similar looking units
made of plastic and sold by Vermont American. The freestanding unit seems
identical to the bench-top unit, except for a 24" support base and a $100
(CDN) price difference : (
Rob Bye
specter at escape.ca
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 3:49 AM
To: mcg at pacbell.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
MCG:
Have a friend that has started woodworking. His wife bought him a Sears
table (could have been one of many brands). He very diplomatically
returened it and we built one for about $50 that was far superior. Many
catalog outfits sell the insert that is required to mout the router.
Router tables are not hard to build and you can end up with a product
that is far superior to most that are on the market. In my opinion, this
is one item that I would not consider buying (any brand) and would build
myself.
Bottom line is recommendation is "no to buying anytable" and "yes to
building your own." You will stay in your budget and have a far better
product. If you decide you want to build and would like some other
information get back with me off line.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 5:44 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
I recommend making a table out of two pieces of 3/4" fiberboard... laminate
it, and mount it to the right of your table saw as an extension table. You
can use the table saw fence, or clamp on an aux. fence to surround the bit.
One of my mounting plates is the black phenolic store bought kind (with the
two insert rings) and another I have is home made with just a piece of 3/8"
acralic (bought locally at a glass supply shop). Total cost of the table
made with the acralic is probably $20.00, plus a couple hours of my labor.
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 8:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; MCG
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
First, sorry for the delay, I did go at lunch yesterday and they did
have one on display. But I am at work, and pointy-haired bosses were
swarming (you guys at pacbell don't have a monopoly on those).
Second, my opinions/observations only worth what you paid, YMMV, etc.
Third, I agree with most of the other posts that state you could
probably make a better table, or cheaper, or both. But you may not
have or want to spend that time right now. At my house SWMBO doesn't
understand why I have to fix or build 3 new widjets before I can even
start what she wanted in the first place. Sometimes I just want to
"plug and play" so to speak. You might want to use this for a while so
you can figure out just what the ultimate router table is to you. Your
call here goes:
They were $119.99 and $149.99 on sale at this store.
You'll probably need the $10.99 adapter for non-Craftsman routers if
you have another brand.
The miter slot is only 1/4" deep. So you can't use after-market fixtures and the
plastic-headed thing they give you is junk. Note however there was a discussion
on this list where most stated they never use the miter slot.
They give you 3 insert rings to step down the bit opening. But the smallest is
still big so you may want to make zero clearance inserts for yourself. If the
rings are metal (they weren't on the display) you might want to make machineable
ones anyway.
The fence was fairly decent. I was surprised. Not the best by a long stretch but
it operated fairly well and had a sliding doo-hicky to hold narrow vertical
stock. Oh, and a dust port.
The main body was fairly solid aluminum but the wings and legs are sheet metal.
The wings were not leveled with the table on the demo but the holes were slotted
to allow adjustment. Never liked sheet metal. Makes a noisy tool even louder.
If it were me I wouldn't spend the extra $ for the stand. I don't have the
floorspace. You could clamp it to your bench and then stow it out of the way. Or
use a Workmate. Or use the $ for some saw horses you could use for other things.
If you've got the space - nevermind. Oh yea, they also give you a remote switch
with the extra stand.
Overall I guess if I was in a hurry to get some things done it was OK. Sears
seems to have lots of good ideas and tries to throw in lots of features but in
trying to make it cheap the stuff ends up cheezy. I'd sooner they throw out the
wings and lower the price about $40 - then I'd feel better about it. I'm not
saying the wings are worth $40, that's just my value/price point.
Jim
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Router Table, take 2
Author: MCG <mcg at pacbell.net> at -Internet
Date: 10/13/98 8:18 PM
Thanks for the feedback on building a router table top. I may yet build
my own, but I also did a little shopping around. Sears is selling a new
Craftsman router table. The bench-top is $110, and the freestanding
unit is $170. This includes the fence, plus push shoe and other
accessories. Anyone own this thing? Looking for feedback. I went to
Sears to look at it, and it felt fairly solid. It also has extensions
on both sides, so it isn't as small as say a Porter Cable table, or for
that matter an older Sears model. If you have the new 98-99 catalog,
it's on 127. Model #s are 25484 and 25483 (benchtop).
If any of you happen to be in a Sears store in the near future, could
you look at this thing for me? I don't want to sink all that $$$ into a
lemon.
NOTE: Let me reply in advance to all the Craftsman haters. Some of us
simply cannot afford all that gold-plated stuff on the market (Incra,
Delta Unisaws, Freud blades, etc), and every so often Sears sells a good
product for the money. So please spare us all, and keep it to
yourselves. I am only looking for a buy/no buy recommendation, not an
earful of your indignation. Thanks
From: Paul Bookout [pbookout at mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:06 PM
To: JimN at oneac.com; woodworking at theoak.com; MCG
Subject: Re: Router Table, take 2
I have this table and it is OK. Not great...just OK. My biggest complaint
is that when I use my Bosch router, using the adapter plate, I lose about
3/8 inch of bit height. In other words, sometimes you need more depth of
cut than the setup will give you. You can raise the bit in the collet but
that can be dangerous. The way the top is made (aluminum casting with
reinforcement underneath) you cannot just drill new holes to mount a
non-sears router. Just my thoughts.
Paul Bookout
Half-Lap Woodworking
Wild and Wonderful West Virginia
From: Hersh, Harry [Harry.Hersh at fmr.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 12:56 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Router TV show
[Flame on]
I caught this show once, and was sufficiently intruiged that I sent for
their book on routine. What a mistake! I've never seen such a misleading,
uninformative book. And in thinking back to the show I had seen there was a
common theme: They really aren't interested in showing how to use a router;
rather, their one and only purpose is it sell you their books, router table
and accessories. Both the show and the book are the type that tell you just
enough to be intruiged, but leave out enough so there is no way you can
duplicate what they have built. In particular, it seems like many of the
photos in their book are intentionally ambiguous so it is impossible to
figure out how they built the more interesting jigs. People will be far
ahead picking up the books by Nick Engler or Patrick Spielman.
\Harry Hersh
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; moose at northrim.net
Subject: RE: Russian Olive
Moose,
$1.00 (us) seems a little high, unless you're buying the wood too. I've
paid anywhere from 27.5 to 50 cents a board foot using portable band mill
services. Or, are you figuring kiln drying costs/transport costs in there
too?
Got a place to stack and dry it? How many board feet do you estimate there
will be?
If this was an orchard, be careful if pesticides were used. These can make
you and the sawyer sick, or worse...
Don't cut random lengths, just for the sake of it. Fixed lengths are MUCH
easier to manage when stacking, drying and storing.
Don't know nuthin' 'bout the wood though. Send me some so I can gain yet
another experience.
Todd Burch.
----------
Moose wrote:
I have recently come in contact with a gentleman rancher who
is going have a large grove of very old Russian Olive trees
cut down. He intends to sell it for fire wood. I have
recently met another gentleman who owns and operates a Wood
Mizer. Are you getting the picture here?
Of course, I know absolutely nothing about the wood of the
Russian Olive tree. The preliminary discussions lead me to
think that I can get this wood, freshly cut into random
lengths and widths, for about a dollar per board foot.
What is this wood like in appearance?
How well does it work?
What are its long term properties like?
What applications is it good for?
What stains and finishes work well on it?
Can it be air dried, or does it need to be kiln dried?
I may also get some cut for the fireplace.
What does it burn like?
Will it choke up my old Franklin stove and chimney with soot
or creosote?
Does it stink like overheated olive oil in an iron skillet?
10Q,
Moose
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 6:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Russian Olive......FALSE ALARM
Today I met with the sawyer who planned to cut the Russian
Olive into lumber for us. Together, we drove up to the
ranch where the grove that is destined to be cut is located.
Our directions were impeccable and we found the trees right
where we expected them to be.
There was not a trunk larger than six inches in diameter.
Every tree trunk we looked at was twisted so bad it would
never be good for anything but firewood. Forget trying to
split it.
I should never have trusted that fancy-dude-yuppie-rancher,
or anyone else that drinks Drambuie and Galliano spritzers,
to know what a tree is supposed to look like. I hate to
admit it, but after all these years I am still a sucker for
Howdy Doody and Cowboy Bob.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 4:43 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Russian Olive......FALSE ALARM
Hi Moose
Those twisted 6" trunks would make for nice turning stock. The
twist will add a great deal of figure to the wood. Olive itself is
highly figured. One of the great things about turning it (or cutting
it) is the smell of ripe olives.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 12:39 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Russian Olive......FALSE ALARM
I asked the same question about the smell of Russian Oak
when it burns. I did not get any definitive answers so I
took some deadfalls home and put them in the Franklin stove
in the shop last night.
The stuff burns very nicely. The fire is hotter than most
soft woods and there is little ash left behind. But, as I
suspected early on, it stinks like overheated olive oil in
an iron skillet, left on the range with the burner on, and
forgotten by mistake. My next door neighbor came over and
asked what was I cooking.
If you have a closed system like some of the newer stoves,
that vents all the fumes up the flue and draws outside air,
it might be OK. I will not burn any more of it.
I think I will offer it to the Ubiquitous Brother-in-Law
when he comes up for Thanksgiving Dinner.
10Q,
Moose
"Persistent people begin their success where others end in
failures." -- Edward Eggleston
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 1:16 PM
To: Wood
Subject: Sanding Box/Station
I might be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted as I have
already built the box but here goes. Where should I make the hole for
the 4" pipe from the DC system? Should it go in via the base/floor of
the box or the back? if it is in the back should it be at the top or
the bottom. My box is 16" high would I have done better to make the
box only 8" high, would that give me more suction?
Thanks Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Tony Moore [bt at stbedes.melb.catholic.edu.au]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sanding Box/Station
Andy,
When you talk of a sanding box I'm guessing that you mean a type of table
arrangement to suck up the dust while you are working with some kind of
electric sander.
If this is true then I've made a drawing of a hybrid one that works off a
shopvac. I took ideas from an assortment of sources. My drawing,(sketch) is
the last one on the page at:
http://www.wwwoodcarver.com/WWWEzine/Vol2Issue1/DustCollection/DustCollectio
n.html
(sorry, this is ##ONE## very long URL it must be contiuous even if it
appears on two lines)
Various professionally made ones are at:
http://www.filterone.thomasregister.com/olc/filterone/
These ones have inbuilt motors and series of filters but there are possibly
some ideas as to the type of components you need.
I also borrowed ideas from:
http://triton.net.au/workc2000/dustextract.htm
I have also seen some very expensive locally made ones!!!
My unique idea was to put a perforated back wall, just like the table
surface so that the dust is not only drawn downwards but sucked back away
from the worker as well. It would require a split-up of the suction pipe so
that it went to the table as well as the back wall.
Since you have a 4 inch duct, you obviously have a large collector.
Regarding the positioning of the pipe, the Triton idea has a type of
reinforced bag which is pulled tight with the connecting hose at the
base/floor level.
My guess is that the effect of the sucked out air is more even across the
surface of the table (where your job is) with a deeper bag than with a
shallow one. If it was placed close to the top I think it would be an eneven
suction across the table (box) surface.
May I suggest also that the table surface (top of your box) can be
"adjusted" to suit the job in progress by using sheets of paper to cover the
areas near the extremities of the table, thus providing stronger suction
closer in near the job.
Having written all that, I hope that I understood what you question was all
about, if the ideas are useful, then well and good otherwise please use the
"delete" key.
Kind regards,
Tony Moore
(in Melbourne, Australia)
At 04:16 PM 08/11/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>I might be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted as I have
>already built the box but here goes. Where should I make the hole for
>the 4" pipe from the DC system? Should it go in via the base/floor of
>the box or the back? if it is in the back should it be at the top or
>the bottom. My box is 16" high would I have done better to make the
>box only 8" high, would that give me more suction?
>Thanks Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
>
>
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:07 AM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Sanding Box/Station
Andy Ball sends:
>I might be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted as I have
>already built the box but here goes. Where should I make the hole for
>the 4" pipe from the DC system? Should it go in via the base/floor of
>the box or the back? if it is in the back should it be at the top or
>the bottom. My box is 16" high would I have done better to make the
>box only 8" high, would that give me more suction?
>Thanks Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
Commercial equipment has it at the bottom of the back about
in the middle of the machine. That's where I would put it on a
shopmade box.
--jmowreader
"There's no such thing as only one rabbit."
--Hogan's Heroes
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 3:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sanding Box/Station
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 you wrote:
>I might be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted as I have
>already built the box but here goes. Where should I make the hole for
>the 4" pipe from the DC system? Should it go in via the base/floor of
>the box or the back? if it is in the back should it be at the top or
>the bottom. My box is 16" high would I have done better to make the
>box only 8" high, would that give me more suction?
>Thanks Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
I don't think taking ten days to respond to this is so bad, especially
when I just happened upon this Web page this morning. Anyway it's a
short article on ho-made down draft tables.
http://www.4lakes.com/bhww/tips.htm
And this is a link to a company that makes tables for more ideas.
http://www.duststorm.com/
Which of course began me musing on the subject. There's a lot of
interest in the JDS squirrel cage type free standing (hanging) air
filters and I'm wondering why not build a multi-purpose assembly,
sanding bench with the filtering system built in. The only down side
is the constant movement of air at the floor level but in a well
ventilated and dust collected shop this might not be so bad. One
could even build the free air collector as a loose unit and slide it
into the sanding table when needed. This would allow you to locate
the free air collector where ever it would work best when not using
the table. Should I be working on a patent for this, he says rather
presumptuously?
Oh, and to answer your original question, I don't think it matters
really. Air goes in and air goes out. What you may find is that
based on final placement you'll get an accumulation of saw dust on the
interior of the box kinda like an eddy in a river. As long as it
stays in the box and not in your lungs you're good to go.
As for the size of the box I think your suction will solely depend on
the holes in the top of the box. For optimum suction your accumulated
area of openings should come as close as possible to matching your
outlet.
Keith Bohn
From: Tony Moore [bt at stbedes.melb.catholic.edu.au]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 7:27 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer
Dear Ray,
All you wanted to know about shellac/ shellac & alcohol/ shellac &
methylated spirits etc at :
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/polish.html
Shellac you mix yourself from the flakes. A great tradition for cabinet
polishers( very cheap & available through your local paint/hardware store)
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/flakes.html
Hope this will answer all your questions
Tony Moore
From: Chuck Steger [chuck.steger at erols.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 7:45 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Sanding Sealer?
I'm refinishing a desk and took it all down to bare wood. I found
some oak and some poplar as part of the construction. I want to stain
it and make sure the stain looks even throughout the piece. Do I apply
sanding sealer to ensure an even stain or is there another product to
apply?
Thanks.
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 8:53 PM
To: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer?
First, a disclaimer: Some people will surely disagree with what I am about
to say.
I've refinished several older pieces of manufactured furniture.
I have had very good results with the Miniwax Polyurethane varnish which
incorporates stain/tint in the finish. It is called Polyshades and is sold
widely. Most wooden factory furniture is finished with a one step spray on
lacquer process where the colorant in the lacquer rather than being first
stained and then protected. The advantage of colorant being in the final
finish is that it tends to obscure differences between pieces and types of
wood like in your situation.
Poly makes a very nice finish if it is applied correctly in multiple thin
coats.
A craftsperson making furniture is likely to put considerable thought into
stock selection and matching. Once such an effort has been made it is best
to stain the item in order to really bring out the grain patterns, and then
use a clear top coat for protection.
Factories generally don't do this. They throw stock together pretty much at
random, then hide the wood behind a tinted finish.
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 9:53 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer?
Normally stain goes on before the sealer.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Marc & Linda Tovar [mltovar at ntr.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 3:44 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer?
Hi All
I'm glad this subject was brought up. Staining is normally done before
applying the Sealer. My question is, "How do you handle the ends where
Stain penetrates easily and gives a much darker appearance". When I
look at good furniture the stain is even throughout.
Thanks much
Marc Tovar
Layton, UT....where it snowed already and I haven't even picked the
grapes for the annual squeezings!!!!!
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 6:38 AM
To: mltovar at ntr.net
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; 'Woodworking'
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer?
Use a stain blocker. Give the ends a light coat of Shellac. Give the
ends a light light coat of Yellow or White glue. Wipe stain off quicker.
Thin the stain for the ends.
Actually, if you sand the edges better, the stain absorbtion will be
minimally darker or un-noticable. It's even possible to get them
lighter!
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 7:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sanding Sealer?
Stain penetrates end grain more easily that normal grain, and generally the
amount of stain used and the amount of time it is on the wood all
contribute to greater darkness of colour. So when putting stain on to get
an even colour on both end and normal grain, the amount applied to end
grain must be less - much less. So if you apply stain with a loaded rag or
brush, do not apply it to the end grain - there just dab it on with some
cotton wool or similar after drying thw wool a little on a scrap piece.
Experimentation makes perfect.
Ray
rest snipped
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Sandpaper Aging.
To All;
I just was told that resin coated abrasive paper looses its flexibility
as it ages and thus looses the abrasive before the abrasive looses it's
sharpness. I have never seen this in print. Any commenta?
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:19 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sandpaper Aging.
Harvey,
There are so many variables (or loopholes if you prefer) in what you
were told, it's difficult to give an overall response that is
meaningful. But generally speaking: Resin coatings *over* the mineral
used, are a "size coat" to keep the mineral sharp. The anchoring layer
of Resin (used as an adhesive and sometimes used in combination with
glue) might be the resin coating referred to. It actually is two
seperate applications of resins.
I would think that the particular mfr, the backing material, it's
intended use, the type mineral used, how it was used, and possibly the
type of resin used, all would contribute to what you were told.
If you are referring to heavy weights, such as what is commonly used on
wide belt sanders, 6 x 48 belt sanders and even portable belt sanders, I
personally have not had that experience. But then, since they are all
machine used, flexibility in not an issue.
I also would think that the question could be best answered by
contacting 3M or Norton.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Thaddeus Badowski [tbadowsk at en.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 6:51 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: 'woodworking'
Subject: RE: Sandpaper Aging.
I had a horrible experience with old, inherited
sandpaper when I started turning- I made a maple
and cherry box, and worked thru the grits- 100,
150, 220; I then found an old piece of wet/dry
400. The black kind. Well, little black pieces
of grit and glue dust emmigrated from the paper,
into the pores of the light wood (maybe it was
poplar...) It was a bear to get out... had to
take a whole bunch off the diameter.
From: Robert Castelli [castelli at gip.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 11:28 AM
To: woodworking
Subject: Sargent Plane
I have a 9 1/2 " bench plane with the following markings:
"Sargent" is labeled on the Levercap. The blade is lableled "Sargent, 409".
Under the tote is a raised number "1" and directly in front of the tote in
raised letters is "MADE IN USA".
Any idea as to the age and possible value. I have tuned and sharpened, and
it's a pleasure to use.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bob
From: Pianoman [dldahl at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 11:58 AM
To: Robert Castelli; woodworking
Subject: Re: Sargent Plane
Can't say anything to the age, etc, but I've got a Sargent #5-type. It's my
best of this size, a well-made plane! You've got a good tool!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 1:40 PM
To: castelli at gip.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sargent Plane
What you have there, is a really good plane. The Sargent 409 is the sam
as the Stanley #4 smoothing plane. You would need a lot more info to
date it, and still then, Sargent's are hard to "type". Does it say
"VBM" on it anywhere? That would help. Colors? I don't have it, but
there is a book out on typing Sargent planes.
I really like them. They are not really common, and Sargent made some
very good ones, and some that were complete junk (just like Stanley and
others.)
Value? Depends on condition. I would estimate anywhere from $20-50
depending on condition, all original parts, length of blade remaining,
etc.The book above also has values in it, but I don't have a copy.
I don't get too worried about value if I like a plane, it works, I
enjoy it.
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Robert Castelli [castelli at gip.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 5:06 AM
To: Gary L. Yarrow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sargent Plane
Gary,
There are no other markings other than what I described. The color of the
japaning is deep-deep blue to black, kind of hard to tell. The lenght of the
remaining blade is over 2" and all parts "look original".
And as long as it keeps shaving the cherry wood like butter, it will remain my
friend.
Bob
Gary L. Yarrow wrote:
From: Richard Bienvenu [BienvenuR at missouri.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 5:58 AM
To: woodworking list
Subject: Sawzal & Metal: What Am I Missing?
I have a Sawzal(l?), the real McCoy, Heavy Duty, and I cannot for the life
of me get it to cut metal. I've checked carefully to see that I am using
the right blade (from Milwaukee itself), but usually the cutting is very
slow and the blade dulls within a couple of minutes. I usually give up and
use a hacksaw.
Is there a secret here? Are there better blades? Something I need to do
differently? (I'll admit that I find using the saw, even for the roughest
cutout work, not the simplest nor the most pleasant thing in the world, if
only because of the vibration and noise, something that all those
misleading TV shows and how-to videos manage to hide from the
viewer/listener.
Richard Bienvenu
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:48 PM
To: Richard Bienvenu
Cc: woodworking list
Subject: Re: Sawzal & Metal: What Am I Missing?
Richard Bienvenu wrote:
>
> I have a Sawzal(l?), the real McCoy, Heavy Duty, and I cannot for the life
> of me get it to cut metal. I've checked carefully to see that I am using
> the right blade (from Milwaukee itself), but usually the cutting is very
> slow and the blade dulls within a couple of minutes. I usually give up and
> use a hacksaw.
>
> Is there a secret here? Are there better blades? Something I need to do
> differently? (I'll admit that I find using the saw, even for the roughest
> cutout work, not the simplest nor the most pleasant thing in the world, if
> only because of the vibration and noise, something that all those
> misleading TV shows and how-to videos manage to hide from the
> viewer/listener.
>
> Richard Bienvenu
I use it to cut metal many times a week. I use bimetal blades usually
made by Lenox. They list what thickness each blade is suggested for. I
have no problem cutting anything from the thinnest sheet metal to channel
iron. even stainless. I think you may want to change blade manufacturer
and use the appropriate blade for the job.
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:28 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Sawzal & Metal: What Am I Missing?
I'll go along with Bill Y. At the fire dept. we use a Makita and at work we
have both Makita and Black & Decker. We use Lennox blades in both places and
get very good service out of them.
At work we cut up tailpipes.....with the FD we cut up the whole darned
car!!!
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:09 PM
To: Richard Bienvenu
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: Sawzal & Metal: What Am I Missing?
> I have a Sawzal(l?), the real McCoy, Heavy Duty, and I cannot for the life
> of me get it to cut metal. I've checked carefully to see that I am using
> the right blade (from Milwaukee itself), but usually the cutting is very
> slow and the blade dulls within a couple of minutes. I usually give up and
> use a hacksaw.
> Is there a secret here?
* For best performance there should always be at least 3-4 teeth in contact
with the metal being cut.
* The judicious use of lubricant will greatly extend the life of the blade,
and result in a better cut edge.
* Reduce the tool's speed
* Reduce the feed rate.
* Let the tool do the work.
> Are there better blades?
There is a blade out there for any cut able material. I even have some with
carbide on the standard wood saw teeth. I've got one from Remmington that has
carbide particles on the cutting edge. Works great on cast iron drain/waste
pipe.
> Something I need to do differently? (I'll admit that I find using the saw,
> even for the roughest cutout work, not the simplest nor the most pleasant
> thing in the world, if
> only because of the vibration and noise, something that all those misleading
> TV shows and how-to videos manage to hide from the viewer/listener.
* Keep the guide foot in firm contact with the material.
* Don't force the tool. Just the weight of the saw will provide the best
action.
* Use the recommended blade for the material
* Use a sharp blade. There are contractor 10 packs available at reduced
rates.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:49 AM
To: Bill Yarborough; Richard Bienvenu
Cc: woodworking list
Subject: Re: Sawzal & Metal: What Am I Missing?
I use the Milwaulkee brand of bimetal blades for all my
cutting with the Sawzall recip saw. However, I select the
blade type to match the material to be cut. I think I can
cut anything with it. I recently used an 10 inch metal
cutting blade to chop up a chain link fence........posts,
rails, and all......about 200 cuts I guess. The last cut
went as smooth as the first.......like a piece of cake.
I can not imagine the problem that Richard is experiencing,
or a probable cause, if he is using the right blades. There
doesn't seem to be a whole lot of technique required to chop
stuff up with a good recip saw like the Milwaulkee.
10Q,
Moose
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 9:58 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Sawzall Abuse!
Jim,
We carry a SawzAll on our Fire Department rescue unit. It's a great asset
when we need to get a windshield or roof out of the way in a hurry.
We also use one at work for doing exhaust systems. It's ideal for cutting
the old system out (or parts there-of) and much safer than using a torch for
the same thing.
Fitted with the correct blade, it can be almost a Godsend.
BTW, there is no way on Gods green earth to abuse a Yugo. The Yugo is a POS
that deserves whatever it gets.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Mowreader <qxd at foto.infi.net>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 1:19 PM
Subject: Sawzall Abuse!
>Today I saw the results of abuse of a Sawzall. The malefactor used
>the poor unloved tool to turn a Yugo into a convertible.
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 1:32 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: ScarySharpening(tm) a Gouge
Gunterman's ScarySharp� sandpaper sharpening technique is
truly fine--on flat things like paring chisels and plane blades. But
what if you need to sharpen a gouge?
Faced with a new 3/4" HSS gouge, I sat at my table making a
scooping motion along the paper with the gouge, trying to get
an even stroke...after two hours of this, I was about ready to hang
it up and try turning with the crappy factory edge. A few seconds
later, sensibility returned...
I went down to the offcuts box and found a piece of 4/4 poplar.
With the gouge and a sandpaper-wrapped dowel, I made a groove
in the poplar. Using the weight of the gouge to force the ScarySharp�
sandpaper into the groove, a few moments' stroking produced the
characteristic chromelike sheen of a ScarySharped� cutter evenly
across the gouge's bevel.
I predict that I'll need to cut a separate groove for each gouge in
my set, but it's a large board so that's okay.
--jmowreader
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 1:22 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: ScarySharpening(tm) a Gouge
Yup, that's the way to go. You could use 3M spray glue to stabilize
the paper or reduce the risk of gouging in it, especially with shallow
carving gouges. Rubbing compound in the soft wood itself makes for a
nice shaped strop (sp?).
On the other hand, you are the first wood turner I hear saying that
he wants such a sharp edge on his lathe tools : the usual procedure is
a 80 grit grinding stone and little else, not even deburring for most
people I know. A very sharp edge is also really thin, heats up in a
microsecond on the fast turning wood and becomes dull quicker than a
thicker one. HSS won't even be enough to avoid the problem then.
But you may know something I don's : so tell me.
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 3:00 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: ScarySharpening(tm) a Gouge
I find that turning gouges work fine right from the grinder.I don't
like to put to fine of an edge on mine because they don't last long at
the lathe.The only turning tool I hone are the skews which need to be
as sharp as possible.
I have done carving gouges like you described and it works well.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 4:13 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: ScarySharpening(tm) a Gouge
I like razor-sharp edges sometimes and regular-sharp edges sometimes.
And when I just want a regular sharp edge I'll go with a medium-grit
grindstone on a grinder.
But this month I'm turning southern yellow pine, and I like a very sharp
edge on a gouge for that. Personal preference; I've tried both and
like the supersharp ones better.
What I'm turning I'm calling "hurricane bowls." Nothing real special
about them, except that they're from a 40-foot Longleaf Pine that
fell down in the back yard during Hurricane Bonnie earlier this year.
I'll cut the log into 3-foot sections, round it out at 100RPM on a lathe
fitted with a router speed control, then cut it into seven-inch sections
with a parting tool and faceplate turn the individual hunks. The two
logs are currently six inches in diameter. And by the time the logs
are completely round, the gouge will be just a little less sharp, which
will make it just perfect for taking the pieces up to about 400RPM
and doing the insides.
--jmowreader
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <JimN at oneac.com> [JimN at oneac.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: School Project help
There is an aluminized product called "Reflectix" (I think). It looks
like bubble wrap but the two outer layers are a thin aluminum/mylar
sheet. It was first developed for use between the joists in attics.
The aluminum layers reflect the radiant mechanism of heat transfer
very well and the bubbles provide the air gap with very low conduction
between "plates". I first saw it at an Ace Hdw. but it is at many home
centers.
Large overhanging roof will shade the sides of the "building".
Make it very tall (high ceiling). This allows a greater temperature
gradient inside (since the thermometer will be on the floor).
These are two tricks I learned from watching a show about southern
plantations and how they kept them cool w/o A.C..
Ventilation?
Jim
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: School Project help
Author: "Rick and Liz Walker" <rickliz at eos.net> at -Internet
Date: 9/29/98 6:01 AM
Hello All
My son has a science project to do and I am trying to give him as much
advice and am supervising in the shop of course........He has to build a
house, any shape, any design, one room. Must be bigger than a shoe box but
not so big or heavy that he cant easily transport it to school in his lap on
the bus. The project is about insulation and heat values. It must contain 2
insulators or conductors. They are going to insert a thermometer in the
house (box) in the classroom and check the temp.. Then they will move it
into the sun for 20 minutes and check the temp again. The student with the
biggest difference in the inside temp and the in the sun temp wins the
project and thus gets the highest grade.
I have thought about having him build it out of 1x material and putting
Styrofoam insulation inside. I have thought about a glass roof or a tin roof
(I have some very thin sheet aluminum).. I thought about lining the walls
inside with aluminum foil. Also thought about covering the floor (where the
thermometer will lay) with foil or black felt...Would a thinner (lower
ceiling) building (box) heat up a lot faster and hotter?
I wanted to get everyone's thoughts and ideas of what would make the biggest
difference in the temp. Thanks in advance...
Rick
"He who laughs last thinks slowest!"
Stone Cold Stunners
Rick & Lizzy Walker from Ohio
Rick's Fantasy Football League
http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/
From: by way of Stephen Bigelow <tburch at cdbsoftware.com> [tburch at cdbsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: RE: School Project help
The replies I have seen on this may have missed the point. From how I read
it, you want to design a "cooker", not a "cooler".
Therefore, I would use a glass roof, angled to catch the sun flat (not
pitched to reflect light). I would make it a shed style roof too. I would
paint the inside and outside flat black and use heat conducting/heat holding
material (like copper, not aluminum) on the bottom inside, and possibly
sides too. Under that, you would use foam core; easy to cut, light, rigid,
cheap. Make the outer box out of anything you have, 3/4" ply might be
better that 1/4", but weight might become a concern. Use single service
glass (cheapo stuff), not insulating glass. Seal all corners with silicone
(no drafts). Place whatever "door" you make near the bottom, and just big
enough to place the thermometer into. You might even make a rubber door
inside the external door, kind of like vertical blinds that you could push
the thermometer through, keeping the heat loss to a minimum. I would think
you could reach 120 degrees easy with this after 20 minutes in the sun. (My
cars gets that hot, and it is designed to keep heat out!)
To get "real" fancy, and your son could tell the teacher it is a satelite
dish, construct a parabolic reflector (aluminum foil, shiney side up)
around the outside of the roof to reflect even more light/heat into the
glass roof. You know, those things you put around your face at the beach to
catch more sun.
Hey, since we're brainstorming here, what about siliconing a magnifying
glass to the inside of the glass roof, (call it a skylight - it's a stretch)
making the height such that the light is directly focused on a rock glued in
place. That will REALLY hold the heat. Careful positioning would be
important here.
Todd in Houston, setting record highs, even without the parabolic reflector.
From: Rick and Liz Walker (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [rickliz at eos.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: School Project help
Hello All
My son has a science project to do and I am trying to give him as much
advice and am supervising in the shop of course........He has to build a
house, any shape, any design, one room. Must be bigger than a shoe box but
not so big or heavy that he cant easily transport it to school in his lap on
the bus. The project is about insulation and heat values. It must contain 2
insulators or conductors. They are going to insert a thermometer in the
house (box) in the classroom and check the temp.. Then they will move it
into the sun for 20 minutes and check the temp again. The student with the
biggest difference in the inside temp and the in the sun temp wins the
project and thus gets the highest grade.
I have thought about having him build it out of 1x material and putting
Styrofoam insulation inside. I have thought about a glass roof or a tin roof
(I have some very thin sheet aluminum).. I thought about lining the walls
inside with aluminum foil. Also thought about covering the floor (where the
thermometer will lay) with foil or black felt...Would a thinner (lower
ceiling) building (box) heat up a lot faster and hotter?
I wanted to get everyone's thoughts and ideas of what would make the biggest
difference in the temp. Thanks in advance...
Rick
"He who laughs last thinks slowest!"
Stone Cold Stunners
Rick & Lizzy Walker from Ohio
Rick's Fantasy Football League
http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/
From: Anthony Gundrum (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [agundrum at voicenet.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: School Project help
Craft stores, like Frank's, Michael's and A.C. Moore usually have a
selection of
building material that can be used for building minature projects like yours.
1x may be a little too much.
I would go with the styrofoam to insulate the walls and ceiling(s). Leave
an air
space between the outside walls and syrofoam should add to the insulting
abilities.
Sheet aluminum is good for the roof, but being a school project I would not
use
it because of the sharp edges. Either roll the edges or use aluminum foil.
The
later could be glued to the roof. For the roof, the material's reflective
quality contributes more to its insulating ability than its thickness.
Painting
it and the outside walls white would also work.
For the floor, a rug remnant should do. Also modeling the floor after a real
one should help. By this I mean putting it on joists. This would add air
space
between what it sits on and the floor itself. Less conductivity.
Hope this helps!
Anthony
Again
Rick and Liz Walker wrote:
> Hello All
> My son has a science project to do and I am trying to give him as much
> advice and am supervising in the shop of course........He has to build a
> house, any shape, any design, one room. Must be bigger than a shoe box but
> not so big or heavy that he cant easily transport it to school in his lap on
> the bus. The project is about insulation and heat values. It must contain 2
> insulators or conductors. They are going to insert a thermometer in the
> house (box) in the classroom and check the temp.. Then they will move it
> into the sun for 20 minutes and check the temp again. The student with the
> biggest difference in the inside temp and the in the sun temp wins the
> project and thus gets the highest grade.
> I have thought about having him build it out of 1x material and putting
> Styrofoam insulation inside. I have thought about a glass roof or a tin roof
> (I have some very thin sheet aluminum).. I thought about lining the walls
> inside with aluminum foil. Also thought about covering the floor (where the
> thermometer will lay) with foil or black felt...Would a thinner (lower
> ceiling) building (box) heat up a lot faster and hotter?
> I wanted to get everyone's thoughts and ideas of what would make the biggest
> difference in the temp. Thanks in advance...
> Rick
> "He who laughs last thinks slowest!"
> Stone Cold Stunners
> Rick & Lizzy Walker from Ohio
> Rick's Fantasy Football League
> http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/
From: gdmorgan (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: School Project help
Roick and Lizzie,
Don't laugh but currugated cardboard and white high gloss paint to
reflect, black flat paint to absorb and you should have satisfied all
criteria.
Geoff
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: Steven Frank [stevendo at pipeline.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 12:49 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: SCMS
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hello all,
I am a longtime reader, first time writer. I am currently in the
market for a SCMS. I managed to convince my wife, that this is a
must if she ever wants to see crown moulding in our house. As always,
she has placed me on a budget. This is a good thing, not bad, I have
a tendency to overspend on most things. Current limit is $500. Now
the problem, what to buy.
I have looked at the following
Hitachi 8 1/2" $448
Bosch 10" $499
Hitachi !0" $550
I like the 8 1/2" Hitachi, but I am concerned about size. I do
mostly home projects and build furniture for the house. I have no
plans to build anything with 4 x 4 stock. Any input would be
appreciated. TIA
P.S. Please don't let my wife know that one can do crown moulding
with a CMS.
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Steven Frank
stevendo at pipeline.com
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 4:24 PM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: SCMS
A couple days ago I had to go to (Builders Square) a Home Depot or Lowes
type, to buy a Dead Blow hammer to replace one we wore out. You'd think
this is no big deal, right? Well, I've been looking off and on for a
particular one for almost 6 months. But while I was there I looked at a
couple of SCMS's because of the recent thread of CMS Vs. SCMS. Setting
aside Gerald Mayers infamous :-) virtual perfect Radial Arm Saw, and I
think Mike Bridges has one too, both older but better machines.
I can't see in todays market in this type of saw how a RAS can even come
close to it (SCMS). Now I have a older RAS too, its a 12" DeWalt from
the '60's and in excellent condition, but nothing special about it
except the brake never did work right. The SCMS also happened to be a
DeWalt, and was about $650, and Makitas (14"?) which they didn't have is
about $8-900. I grabbed the front of the saw and yanked and shook it
hard sideways in both directions trying to pivot it on it's column. It
didn't move 1 iota! It couldn't move! there is no joint there as there
is in a RAS. I did it so hard, I was bending or flexing the metal
sawtable in my efforts. I think that's great! My biggest beef with RAS
is how sensitive they are to side shock movement. When I'm feeding too
quickly and jam the blade into the wood stalling the motor, my settings
have gone out the window! It doesn't appear that could happen with that
SCMS. I didn't investigate anything else as I was too busy hitting the
Security cops with the dead blow hammer while they were dragging me out
the door.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:41 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Re: SCMS
Hope you paid for that dead blow hammer before they dragged you out.
First, let me confess ignorance. I've never used a SCMS, and I gather
that you haven't either. I do have a good CMS, and the blade rock from
side to side is greater than that on my RAS. I've just confessed that I
can rack the blade on my RAS with side pressure, but I use that to
advantage. Pulled without side pressure, the cut is straight and true.
With side pressure, I can deflect the blade path by a few thousandths of
an inch. I normally make cuts with no side pressure, and apply pressure
on the backstroke to avoid burn marks. It works for me.
My poor little RAS with an 11 amp motor did have a stalling problem
years ago. Like the recent bandsaw thread, the answer is in the blade.
Switching to a Freud thin kerf blade was like souping up the motor power
by 50%. I crosscut 2" thick oak and hard maple, as well as 2x pressure
treated stock, like it was butter. I did decades of ripping with it
too, before I bought a TS. Now it is a crosscut and a superior miter
machine. Ripping is done on the TS with a Freud ripping blade. From
experience and ignorance of the high price blades, Freud is my favorite
of those I have tried.
Sounds like you're ready to buy a SCMS. If you do, please report your
experiences. I'll continue to defend my RAS. In the spirit of general
advice, I wouldn't buy a new RAS. If anybody wants one, check the
classifieds for a Craftsman of early to mid 70's vintage. After
checking out the new ones, I certainly wouldn't trade my old one for the
best of the current offerings. Regards,
Gerald
From: Jeff Cormier [sam at maas.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 6:31 AM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Re: SCMS
I agree with Don about the Dewalt SCMS. I saw a contractor last spring
drop his Dewalt about four feet to a concrete driveway. Then set it up
and make a crosscut on a 2x10, check it for square (perfect), and get on
to work. Other than a few scrapes, some of which I suspect were not
new, it looked none the worse. If I ever decide to get rid of my RAS,
which I use heavily and enjoy, the SCMS will be my first consideration.
It takes up less room, holds up to abuse (I'm not that hard on tools),
and may cost less overall.
Jeff Cormier
Iowa, LA
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 6:40 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; TheOaklistserv
Subject: Re: SCMS
Howdy Don
In case you missed my original post or I wasn't too clear let me touch on a
point or two I made.
There was no claim to having exceptional saws, what was stated was that with
REASONABLE care in set up and use (I.E. not feeding too quickly and
jamming the blade into the wood!!! Now would you do that with your table saw
or router???) What was stated is that the RAS provides greater versatility
then the CMS or SCMS and will continue to do so until, at the very least,
one is made that can take a dado blade and be set to cut a dado to a
specific depth......
I fail to see where the argument that you pulled on the saw until the table
bent and flexed or jammed the blade into the wood is at all relevant unless
this the way you habitually treat your tools and mill your wood.
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
To: TheOaklistserv <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 8:44 PM
Subject: SCMS
>A couple days ago I had to go to (Builders Square) a Home Depot or Lowes
>type, to buy a Dead Blow hammer to replace one we wore out. You'd think
>this is no big deal, right? Well, I've been looking off and on for a
>particular one for almost 6 months. But while I was there I looked at a
>couple of SCMS's because of the recent thread of CMS Vs. SCMS. Setting
>aside Gerald Mayers infamous :-) virtual perfect Radial Arm Saw, and I
>think Mike Bridges has one too, both older but better machines.
>
>I can't see in todays market in this type of saw how a RAS can even come
>close to it (SCMS). Now I have a older RAS too, its a 12" DeWalt from
>the '60's and in excellent condition, but nothing special about it
>except the brake never did work right. The SCMS also happened to be a
>DeWalt, and was about $650, and Makitas (14"?) which they didn't have is
>about $8-900. I grabbed the front of the saw and yanked and shook it
>hard sideways in both directions trying to pivot it on it's column. It
>didn't move 1 iota! It couldn't move! there is no joint there as there
>is in a RAS. I did it so hard, I was bending or flexing the metal
>sawtable in my efforts. I think that's great! My biggest beef with RAS
>is how sensitive they are to side shock movement. When I'm feeding too
>quickly and jam the blade into the wood stalling the motor, my settings
>have gone out the window! It doesn't appear that could happen with that
>SCMS. I didn't investigate anything else as I was too busy hitting the
>Security cops with the dead blow hammer while they were dragging me out
>the door.
>--
>Don Weisman
>Abacus Furniture Repair
>
>
A thought
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 10:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: SCMS
Don, Mike, Mike, Chuck and anybody else who cares to listen,
Had to throw my 2 cents in the ring. I have both a radial arm and a Delta
miter saw (not compound). I agree with the premise the slop can be mostly
eliminated or overcome on the RAS.
In the case of the miter saw I chose mine out of all that were on the market
at that time for exhibiting the least amount of deflection at the blade.
Most of the saws I tested had a very noticeable amount of slop. Some had
very little and the Delta had almost none. The reason I suspect the Delta
performed so well is the thing is all cast iron and has a massive pivot
joint. The SCMS saws at that time had the most slop of any I looked at.
Again some better some worst. What blew me away was the amount of play at
the blade when the arm was in the fully extended position.
Don, I'm glad to hear someone else is out there manhandling equipment to
see if it can be precise.
Also it's good to hear the manufacturers are actually improving their
products these days. I plan to give a closer look when time allows.
Dean Horstman - Seattle
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 11:52 AM
To: Horstman, B. Dean; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: SCMS
Howdy Dean
Thanks for the input. Out of curiosity, how long have you had the CMS. The
reason I ask is that the way you phrase your post it sounds like it's been
awhile and that you did your research into it. It strikes me that that would
put you in a good position, next time your near a dealer, of assessing the
current stock of such saws on the market and giving us your opinion of the
changes made since you bought yours.
It would probably be a more valuable opinion then that we see in the mag's.
And yes, despite a previous post Don's work out of the saw he was looking at
is also a valuable insight for those looking to purchase a MS, CMS, or
SCMS so let me add my thanks to him here since, in that context, I'm afraid
I did omit it in the other post.
-----Original Message-----
From: Horstman, B. Dean <DHorstman at HEWM.com>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: SCMS
>Don, Mike, Mike, Chuck and anybody else who cares to listen,
>
>Had to throw my 2 cents in the ring. I have both a radial arm and a Delta
>miter saw (not compound). I agree with the premise the slop can be mostly
>eliminated or overcome on the RAS.
>
>In the case of the miter saw I chose mine out of all that were on the
market
>at that time for exhibiting the least amount of deflection at the blade.
>Most of the saws I tested had a very noticeable amount of slop. Some had
>very little and the Delta had almost none. The reason I suspect the Delta
>performed so well is the thing is all cast iron and has a massive pivot
>joint. The SCMS saws at that time had the most slop of any I looked at.
>Again some better some worst. What blew me away was the amount of play at
>the blade when the arm was in the fully extended position.
>
>Don, I'm glad to hear someone else is out there manhandling equipment to
>see if it can be precise.
>
>Also it's good to hear the manufacturers are actually improving their
>products these days. I plan to give a closer look when time allows.
>
>Dean Horstman - Seattle
>
>
A thought
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:26 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: SCMS
Mike,
My Delta is a miter only with no compound features and is about the same age
as my daughter (8yrs old). Thinking back I believe the compound sliders
were just coming out but were not very prevalent. Only looked at a couple.
Be glad to give my impressions of the new gaggle of contenders when I get
the opportunity. Not that my opinion is professional by any means but I've
been known for some time as a picky son-of-a-gun. Some even call me
thrifty.
I used to be in a hi-fi club for high end audio. One of my favorite
magazines had all of the normal "price so high it makes your nose bleed"
kind of equipment but they also had a feature called the "Audio Cheapskate".
It was written by a gentleman who's philosophy in audio was to get the best
listening enjoyment for the least amount of money. I still wish one of the
"wood" magazines would pick up on this theme and give us thrifty people good
alternatives to the "cost-no-object" kind of woodworking. It's fun to drool
over the expensive pieces but I need something that will get the job done at
a reasonable price. Sometimes it is shop-made or sometimes it is a clone
like the Precision 50 fence. Don't have one of Harvey's fences but it
sounds like a lot of fence for the money.
Sorry for droning on but wanted to let you in on some of my idiosyncrasies.
Dean Horstman
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike G. [mailto:mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 11:52 AM
To: Horstman, B. Dean; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: SCMS
Howdy Dean
Thanks for the input. Out of curiosity, how long have you had the CMS. The
reason I ask is that the way you phrase your post it sounds like it's been
awhile and that you did your research into it. It strikes me that that would
put you in a good position, next time your near a dealer, of assessing the
current stock of such saws on the market and giving us your opinion of the
changes made since you bought yours.
It would probably be a more valuable opinion then that we see in the mag's.
And yes, despite a previous post Don's work out of the saw he was looking at
is also a valuable insight for those looking to purchase a MS, CMS, or
SCMS so let me add my thanks to him here since, in that context, I'm afraid
I did omit it in the other post.
-----Original Message-----
From: Horstman, B. Dean <DHorstman at HEWM.com>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: SCMS
>Don, Mike, Mike, Chuck and anybody else who cares to listen,
>
>Had to throw my 2 cents in the ring. I have both a radial arm and a Delta
>miter saw (not compound). I agree with the premise the slop can be mostly
>eliminated or overcome on the RAS.
>
>In the case of the miter saw I chose mine out of all that were on the
market
>at that time for exhibiting the least amount of deflection at the blade.
>Most of the saws I tested had a very noticeable amount of slop. Some had
>very little and the Delta had almost none. The reason I suspect the Delta
>performed so well is the thing is all cast iron and has a massive pivot
>joint. The SCMS saws at that time had the most slop of any I looked at.
>Again some better some worst. What blew me away was the amount of play at
>the blade when the arm was in the fully extended position.
>
>Don, I'm glad to hear someone else is out there manhandling equipment to
>see if it can be precise.
>
>Also it's good to hear the manufacturers are actually improving their
>products these days. I plan to give a closer look when time allows.
>
>Dean Horstman - Seattle
>
>
A thought
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:18 PM
To: Horstman, B. Dean
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: SCMS
Horstman, B. Dean wrote:
>
> Don, Mike, Mike, Chuck and anybody else who cares to listen,
>
> Had to throw my 2 cents in the ring. I have both a radial arm and a Delta
> miter saw (not compound). I agree with the premise the slop can be mostly
> eliminated or overcome on the RAS.
Hi Dean.
Mostly is the keyword. Where I am coming from is that it should be 100%.
What kind of reliability is there if one board is crosscut at 91� and
the next is 89�?
>
> In the case of the miter saw I chose mine out of all that were on the market
> at that time for exhibiting the least amount of deflection at the blade.
> Most of the saws I tested had a very noticeable amount of slop. Some had
> very little and the Delta had almost none. The reason I suspect the Delta
> performed so well is the thing is all cast iron and has a massive pivot
> joint. The SCMS saws at that time had the most slop of any I looked at.
> Again some better some worst. What blew me away was the amount of play at
> the blade when the arm was in the fully extended position.
>
> Don, I'm glad to hear someone else is out there manhandling equipment to
> see if it can be precise.
>
> Also it's good to hear the manufacturers are actually improving their
> products these days. I plan to give a closer look when time allows.
>
> Dean Horstman - Seattle
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Paul W. Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 10:20 AM
To: The Oak Woodworking List
Cc: SSUG-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Scraper Mats
Hi All,
Recently, there was talk about trapping the sawdust before it left God's
little acre and was deposited elsewhere, much to the wrath of SWMBO. In
my company, we use a product from Consolidated Plastics Co. in Ohio
called "Heavy duty Shoe-Scraper Mats". We were plagued with metal
shavings being tracked all over the front office carpets. Of course, we
used the 36" x 72" size and it works very effectively. Its attributes
are as follows:
* The powerful "fingers" virtually scrape out all debris and
moisture as you walk across the mat.
* Beveled edges add to no-trip safety.
* The mat holds pounds of dirt between cleanings and is easy to
shake or hose clean. (Vacuum?)
* Actually contains 2,500 rubber scrapers per square foot.
* Constructed of high quality, durable rubber for long wear.
* The overall mat thickness is 5/8".
Part No. 116070MW Size 24" x 32" Price $34.80
Tel 1-800-362-1000 (no website)
--
Paul W. Abelquist
Vice President
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
EMS Development Corporation
95 Horseblock Road
P.O. Box 640
Yaphank, NY 11980-0640
Tel.: 516 345 6200
Fax: 516 345 6216
From: Roger Hubner (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Screen and Window Hardware
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 9:51 AM
To: RAKENEL at aol.com; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Scroll Saw
I had a Dremel which I bought at Lowes for $149. It has been a workhorse.
I gave it to my son after I bought the dream machine (DeWalt).
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Canning & dehydrating tomatoes and peppers
like mad!
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 3:20 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: Andy & Theresa Ball; Mike G.; Rosiedoe at aol.com; ken at netadventure.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: sealing MDF
Last month I delivered a series of MDF cases. Sheet count was seven 49x97's.
For color, the client liked the look of paste wax on raw MDF. I closely
matched the color with a sanding sealer.
Do not use glue size, the powder is mixed with tap water. Also avoid a latex
based sealer, it will raise the grain. I had good results with Pittsburgh
Paint's Speedhide Interior Wood Sealer Clear 6-10. It is quick drying when
sprayed with an HVLP. I have the Campbell Hausfeld entry level unit, and got
the best finish using the smaller needle/cone set. The standard combo was too
coarse. Dry to the touch time is 10-12 minutes, depending on weather.
The raw MDF was sanded on the end grain only, with 220 & 320; the sealer coat
was lightly sanded with 320. As per the label's suggestion, the second coat
was the finish. By tightly bagging the cup gun with a plastic store bag, I
successfully stored it overnight in the beer box, thus saving a clean-up.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 4:19 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Sears Tools (long)
Recently, we had a thread on Sears tools. As most of you know, I have
not been a proponent of Sears tools, in fact just the opposite. One of
my posts was very critical of their products. Zane Harris, one of our
more proactive list members forwarded my note on to Sears in a effort to
inform Sears what is being said of their products. Apparently that note
ended up on a senior tool buyers desk in their home office. Yesterday
two of Sears tool buyers called me. That call resultied in three hours
of phone conversations. Those conversations focused on my experiences
with their products, what could be done to improve Craftsman tool
performance and Sears general overall customer service and Sears goals
and obectives in their tool division.
Since a critical note on Sears products to this list generated these
calls and in fairness to Sears I would like to provide some of the
points of that conversation that is relevant to the list.
-Sears is focusing on two segments of the market place. The first, is
the very casual user of tools such as the occasional handy person. That
is the person whose use of tool is limited to that occasionl tasks that
are infrequent. An example is the person that uses a drill to hang some
window coverings and then trys to remember what he did with the drill a
year later when he need to drive another screw or drill a hole. . That
market is the very low end where cost is primary consideration with
reliability and performance being secondary. Sears feels that they have
adaquate products at competitive prices for that market. I agree. The
other segment, is the dedicated hobist, advanced amateur or/or semi
professional woodworker. Their goal is to produce a product line under
their brand name that will compete both in price and quality with Porter
Cable, Delta, and DeWalt. This is the market that our discussions
focused on. It needs to be highlighted that they are not focusing on
the full time professional as their marketing system (mall sales as they
described) can not adaquately service the full time professinal. The
problem areas are store locations and store hours with companion
merchandise. Many professonals visit their suppliers at 7:00 in the
morning and are also buy other building materials at the same time.
Sears does not carry lumber nor do they seem to want to get into this
market. Sears simply is not postured to compete in this market. In
shot they are looking for the weekend warrior who needs and wants
professional quality tools, but is willing to buy them on a trip to Sears
with the significant other or on Saturday afternoon. The Sears
representitives expressed concern that they are not fully reaching that
market and are working on new approcahs to meet their objectives. My
sencing was that this is a concern at the highest levels within Sears.
-Concerns were expressed that they do not have trained knowledgeable
sales representatives in their tool departments. They recognize that
unless the customer can be told why they should buy a quality tool and
why the tool provides quality and performance, sales decisions will be
made on price alone. They indicated that they are addressing these
issues. They understand that customers will be satisfied with a more
expensive quantity built tool, but will not buy that tool unless someone
can explain why it is a better tool and how the features will relate to
the performance desired by the customer. The obvious problem is, if
they increase the price of a product and it can't felt toughed or
smelled, the customer will be unaware of the additional quality, hence
will be unwilling to pay for it. Makes sence, few of us would be
willing to pay for something that we do not know exists.
-They recently have changed manufactures on a number of products in their
tool line. While not clearly stated, I was lead to believe that these
changes were being driven by the desire to produce better products and at
the same time be more competitive in the market place. Realize that
both objective are hard to meet and I wonder if they will be met. They
are implementing quality assurance programs and performance
specifications that are based on results of there own testing laboratory
results. Apparently their specifications and quality assurance testing
procedures are influanced on both destructive and non destructive
testing in their own testing lab. In a spirit of cooperatin I offered to
send them a non operational router that I had bought from them a couple
of years ago, so that they could do a failure analysis. They fully
agreed that the performance that I had experienced from their industrial
grade router is unacceptable and must be corrected. I asked them if
they would inform me of the results of their failure analisis. They
indicated that they would.
-Sears asked me if I would accept some of their new products and evaluate
them. There were no conditions attached except that I would agree to
provide them with feedback. That feedack , good or bad will be provided
the manuafature and their testing lab, with the hopeful result of product
improvement if needed. Frankly, I was not too enthusiastic about putting
any more Craftsman tools in my shop, be they free or not, substandard
products at any price do not help me achieve my woodworking goals. They
simply take up space, wich I can ill afford. I did finally agree to
evaluate a new model stand alone drill press. The buyer indicated that
they felt that this one is as leap ahead in precision and quality over
there old line. Additionaly, this model has better features for the
woodworker. What they are, except a fence, I do not know at this time.
Apparently, this product is new to Sears and it is not yet in the Sears
warehouse, hence will be shipped directly form the manufactaure. They
indicated that it would be at my door within a week to ten days. I asked
Kip if it would be appropriate to provide a copy of my evaluation to
the list. Kip has given his blessing so once I receive that machine, I
will evaluate it and let the list know where it falls good, bad or in
the middle. Please understand that I am not a testing agency, but I do
own a dial gage, and am a fairly proficient woodworker. It will be
checked vary closely and will be used in normal woodworking operations
including mortising, and sanding.
CONCLUSION: I was pleasantly surprised at Sears desire to talk to a,
obviously unsatisified former customer. More importantly, I believe
that they listened carefully and acutally took notes. It is apparent
that the folks that I talked to have a sincere desire to improve their
product line, customer service, and their companies reputation. This
driven by the desire to improve their market share which has eroded. If
they can achieve that goal within the current business realities and the
large corporate system remains to be seen.
What is clear is that customers are starting to talk with their
pocket books and Sears is starting to listen. Will thise efforts be
successful and will we, the consumer, end up with better products? I
don't know, but it would be nice it we did!
Ken Martin
Newport News, Virginia
USA
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From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 4:56 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
Thanks for the great post Ken.
I hope that Sears follows through on their stated mission to once again make
the Craftsman brand a place where the customer can find high quality at a
competitive price. Setting Porter Cable, DeWalt, and Bosch as the
benchmarks seems reasonable.
Besides the things you mentioned, Sears needs to make their branding clear
and consistent. In the 70s when I first started shopping at Sears (with my
mother no less) Sears had a line of tools clearly targeted at the
cost-sensitive, occasional user. These were called "Companion" tools.
Tools for the discriminating weekend warrior were sold as "Craftsman".
Tools which were targeted at the professional and/or high-end weekend
warrior were "Craftsman Industrial". In the catalog these would often be
labeled "Good", "Better", and "Best". I think that branding strategy still
makes sense today.
Somewhere along the line Sears pushed the "Craftsman" brand onto everything
and used the "Craftsman Industrial" label indiscriminately. In your
discussions with Sears I would encourage you to make these points to them.
Although I'm currently critical of much of the Craftsman line, I have high
hopes for it's returning to respectability. The closest three places from
my house to buy tools are Orchard Supply, Sears Hardware and a Sears Mall
store. These days I either travel farther or buy mail order because I've
been so disappointed by the deterioration in quality of Craftsman tools over
the past 25 years. Maybe they will get their act together!
John H.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 5:22 PM
To: knm1 at juno.com
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
knm1 at juno.com wrote:
>
> Recently, we had a thread on Sears tools. As most of you know, I
Ken,
What if anything did they have to say about their parts and service
work?
As it stands now around here, and you are lucky enough to find a repair
center, all they fix is lawnmowers. (At least I hope they fix 'em) Some
or all other items are sent out to what I assume is a central location
repair center somewheres. No-one in their right mind would buy a tool
that wouldn't be repaired. Well, maybe not no-one...
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 6:08 PM
To: knm1 at juno.com
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
Hi Ken
Thanks for the long report on your conversation with a Sears senior tool
buyer.
Did he or she give any indication of being aware of the general
disparagement of most Sears tools on the internet woodworking forums?
Just curious. Are they reading these forums?
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 6:03 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
Very interesting post.
One thing puzzles me ! Isn't it relatively easy, for a company like SEARS,
to go to a store, buy a Porter-Cable router, take it apart and study it in
detail ? They could make comparisons...They could see what is right and
what is wrong...
I believe SEARS knows EXACTLY what they are after. They know how much ($)
they want to spend to build a tool. They don't want to make a top quality
tool, they just hope they can put some of the right features in there so
that amateur woodworkers get "hypnotized" (widening their market share).
SEARS could built a top quality machine if they were willing to invest
substancially. My impression is ... they are not.
Michel Garceau
----------
> De : knm1 at juno.com
> A : Woodworking at theoak.com
> Objet : Sears Tools (long)
> Date�: 19 septembre, 1998 19:18
>
> Yesterday
> two of Sears tool buyers called me.
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 7:44 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
In a message dated 9/19/98 8:53:05 PM, abacus at pdq.net writes:
<<all they fix is lawnmowers. (At least I hope they fix 'em)>>
That's another interesting story. I took my lawn mower to Sears Repair shop
last week and the door was locked. I wen next door to the parts counter and
asked what the situation was. They said the lawn mower repair group was out to
lunch (g) and probably would be back in a couple hours. Another gentleman (a
customer) said where can he apply for a job. However, the parts counter person
said he could take my request to have the lawn mower repaired, but I might
want to consider these things:
1) there was a $30 charge to look at it (could be applied to the repair bill)
2) labor costs were $60/hour
3) If I knew what parts were needed he would add up the estimated cost of
repairs (minimum)
4) they had 10% off on new and 20% off on last year's new lawn mowers
Well, we added up the cost of repairs (1 hour ) plus a new propulsion
transmission and control cable and came up with over $160 minimum and it might
not fix it. I could fix it myself with the parts for $120, if those two parts
would do it. I ended up buying a last year's model for $239. I figured the
lawn mower had served well for 5 years and still mowed but the transmission
cut in and out.
Should I be confident that I have a good reliable lawn mower and an
organization to back it up? NO. However, I only ever had one other lawn mower
besides Sears and it was a disaster named Snapper. What is the choice? Sears
mowers have always been a good value, let's hope they still are. Their
woodworking tools are a similar story, but the decline came earlier.
Lee Harper
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 7:59 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Michel Garceau
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
By the way, the Sears folks implicitly agreed that Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
are in a strategic position to serve the professional due to long hours (our
local HD is open from 7AM to Midnight) and a broad selection. The
contractor trade must dwarf the weekend warrior trade for volume of tools
purchased.
I guess Emerson Electric may end up being happy it switched sales channels
from Sears to HD.
JOhn
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 9:14 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Sears Tools (long)
I think that I must be missing something in this thread. It's been a while
since I've looked in a Seerz catalogue, but I can't recall seeing any prices
(on sale or otherwise) that would make me want to take the trip to the
store. I can see prices like that at Home Despot, Revy or WallyWorld - heck,
even our local merchants can give those prices or cheaper (2 1/2 hours from
the nearest city).
I don't know how our prices compare with those in the land where a buck is a
buck, but to me the quality issue takes a backseat when there's nothing to
make you want to go look in the first place!!
Just my loonies worth.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Thomas R. Knisely [knisely at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 10:36 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Seat/Step Stool
Need some Christmas present help.
My wife and I have a fairly new granddaughter. One year old. For
Christmas I would like to make a step stool/chair I saw about two years
ago. The step stool had a step that folded up over the back to make a
small seat.
I have look numerous places but have not had any success in locating
plans. Any help would be appreciated.
Tom Knisely
San Clemente, CA
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:02 PM
To: knisely at ix.netcom.com; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Seat/Step Stool
Tom I failed in my mission and was unable to find plans for a step
stool/chair, but look what I stumbled on, look at the price on these
babies
http://www.neaguild.com/macrodel/argy.html
Am I missing something here, like this is the price per doz or should
we all just move our equipment to Maine and make step stools.
Paul this makes your 50 quid for fence post candlesticks look like a
steal. Thats IT! Thats where the rest of Hampton Court went, to foot
stools.
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:35 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Seat/Step Stool
I considered the same for my daughter, two years old, but reconsidered
because she never sits for more than 2 seconds <g>. It would make a great
gift idea. I saw several variations including one with storage under the
seat (my daughter would've loved that). The simplest version was a simple
step on two arms that mounted near the front of the seat and simply swung up
and over to form the backrest. I never got as far as planning one, so I
don't have any plans. One tip, I made my daughter's step stool 11" tall and
it is not too tall for her. In fact, it could be an inch taller.
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:20 AM
To: ' Andy & Theresa Ball'; knisely at ix.netcom.com; Woodworking
Subject: RE: Seat/Step Stool
Tom,
You can find plans for a very nice one at:
http://www.gcwoodworks.com/12.htm
John Mark
From: Mark, John E [john.e.mark at intel.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 10:32 AM
To: 'ymessier at istar.ca'; Mark, John E
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Seat/Step Stool
Yves,
That is absolutely correct. Good catch!! I didn't read the original post,
just the reply from Andy Ball and didn't realize it was for a toddler. I
just saw the "Chair/Step Stool" portion of it. I suppose it could be scaled
down to about 2/3 size and work well for a child??
John
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 9:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Seat/Step Stool
We've got one of these and I'm not happy with it. It has pinched my
daughter once or twice. I would suggest you take a look at the
following URL for a gift that will really rack up some Grand Pa
brownie points.
http://www.bestbymail.com/hollowwoodworks/default.htm
Slide down to the Name Stool portion. Basically it's a piece of 2X
material with the name cut out and a 1/2" plywood backer to hold the
letters when they are re-inserted. Use acrylic paint or leave them
natural.
The only down side is you'll need to make one for each new grandchild
like we'd have to twist your arm for that right?
As an aside, my dad has made small (18" high, 18" deep, 24" wide)
blanket boxes for each of the grand kids. I had the job of routing
their names on the front using a Roman stencil. We tried to make them
so they would have them for the rest of their lives so we didn't make
them too "kid looking". It's a slippery slope when it comes to
personalized gifts.
Keith Bohn
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:31 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Serving Trays (long)
Hi all,
Many folks like to receive Christmas gifts from my woodworking shop. In
the past, these have included cutting boards, jewelry boxes, oak and
walnut clocks, and bookends of various woods. This year, a feature in
Woodsmith magazine caught my wife's eye. The February 1998 issue
focuses on lap joints, and has a serving tray project with the main
surface being an open grid of 1" x 1/4" strips made with lap joints.
I was busy with other things, so I didn't really look at it until a
couple of weeks ago. The plan is to make six or more. I'm really into
the project now, and it is fascinating. What a great learning
experience! I've exercised most of the tools in my shop, and gained a
new appreciation of precision woodworking. If you think thousandths of
an inch don't count, try this project.
The tray itself is built from 1/4" and 1/2" stock. Unless you have a
supplier for finished wood in those thicknesses, preparing the stock
will give you good practice in the art of resawing and planing. Now the
fun begins in building the grid. I used a 1" straight bit in my router
table to cut the slots, and I made a jig that fits on the router table
to index the slots at exactly 1" spacing. There are two critical
adjustments here. The depth of the slot is critical to get the
assembled grid to lay flush on both sides. My first try required
significant sanding after assembly. The second hard spot is the spacing
between slots. Few will notice that the middle slot is too narrow on my
prototype, but any small error in the setting is magnified when you
finish the piece.
The ends are curved to make room for a handle slot. Since I am planning
to make several of these, I chose not to hand craft each end. My choice
was between template routing with a hand held router, and pattern
routing with a table mounted router. I chose the pattern, mainly
because of the difficulty in providing clearance under the bit with the
hand held router. In template routing, the template is made smaller
than the finished piece by the difference in radius between the bit and
the template, usually 1/16". In pattern routing, the pattern is made to
the exact size of the finished piece. A ball bearing the same diameter
as the bit rides the edge of the pattern.
The finished grid is captured in a frame with mitered joints, and the
frame is captured in the sides of the tray, which also have mitered
joints. For a simple but attractive end product, this project requires
some serious woodworking. If you have the tools, try it. I am really
enjoying the project. Regards,
Gerald
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:14 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle - update.
Well naturally the easiest solutions were right under my nose all the time
(seems to be habit forming 8^). Many thanks to all that responded.
The sliding T-bevel and protractor is going to be the first one through the
wringer. House of Tools up here in the GWN has a precision 6" protractor for
45 beans CA (ouch!!), but I think I might try the protractor from
www.sky.net/~lorenh and sandwich that between a couple of pieces of
plexiglass.
Instead of attaching a straight-edge directly to the arbor, I think I will
cobble up something to attach to the blade with magnets. Since this is only
an 8.25" saw, cranking the blade to the top still doesn't give much blade to
measure against.
The plywood templates also sounds good, but I always seem to need a small
piece just that size and I turn the darned things into lumber 8^).
The Beall thingie sounds about as accurate as you're ever gonna get but I
would doubt that my shed floor is very level let alone the top of my saw. As
well, by the time we got this puppy up here in the GWN it'd prolly be over
$200CA and now a real saw is starting to look doable.
Of course the most important part of the angle accuracy equation is me and
that will be determined soon. (It's no fun doing this kind of stuff in a
sub-freezing workshop, but if I don't get my daily whiff of sawdust I can
make a caffeine snit look mild).
Again, many thanks to all that took the time to respond.....the ideas
expressed have helped to advance my woodworking knowledge immensely.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 1:07 AM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Setting TS blade angle.
Looking for recommendations for a jig/method/magic wand for setting blade
angle on table saw. The markings on my indicator have precious little to do
with the real world.
Since most of my work thus far has been "fiddley little s**t", this is one
angle that I really need to improve my accuracy on. Making it especially
difficult is the 8.25" blade that this saw accepts.........yes, I'd love a
new saw but that just ain't in the cards for a while. Anyway, the small
diameter gives a lot less blade for checking against, making things that
much tougher.
The alternative would be router bits in 30 deg., 22.5 deg. and so on, but I
have yet to find a supplier for these. HELP!!!!
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:37 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
I would consider using your miter gauge to cut some blocks at various
angles that you'll consistently use. Cut them so that they're long enough
to get a different angle on each end.
Now, when it comes time to set an angle you simply raise the blade to it's
highest capacity, begin tilting it whilst holding your block with the
appropriate angle on the table and next to the blade. Stop tilting when
you can see that the blade is against the block. At that point I believe I
would register that angle on your present indicator and use that for future
reference but the blocks are just as easy.
Joe
I'm not cheap, but I'm on special this week
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:04 AM
To: Joe Johns; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
Joe:
Contact Jesada Tools #800-870-7702 they should be able to help out on the
chamfering bits, they have 15, 22.5, 30 and 45 degrees.
Ken
Kenneth C. Kansco
Horticultural Associates of Rochester, Inc.
716-374-8935 Fax 716-374-9398
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
>Looking for recommendations for a jig/method/magic wand for setting blade
>angle on table saw. The markings on my indicator have precious little to do
>with the real world.
You should check a drafting supply store for an adjustable triangles.
The bigger the better. You want as much space between the graduations
as possible. While you are there go ahead and get a full set of fixed
triangles.
An alternative is the Beall Inclinometer. This little jewel ($129!!!)
is prominently featured on the cover of the latest Wm. Alden catalog.
It works using a string and plumb bob hanging from a point with the
angles laid out on an arc below. For the life of me I can't see this
being viable unless you have your saw permanently fixed somewhere and
even then you'd have to be dead level and flat. Maybe one out of a
hundred woodworkers can claim this. Surprisingly it's not shown on
the Beall Web page and there's no link at Wm. Alden either. Call for
a catalog?
http://www.bealltool.com/
http://www.williamalden.com/
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 9:54 PM
To: Jim & Deb Warman
Cc: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
Jim & Deb Warman wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for a jig/method/magic wand for setting blade
> angle on table saw.
Since there is so little blade exposure to register off of, try this
* remove the saw blade and replace it with a flat, steel plate 4"Wx12"Lx1/4"T
* at the drill press, bore an arbor hole, centered s/s and 1/2" more than the
flange washer's diameter up.
* buy an adjustable draftsman's triangle, from a stationary store
There are TS angle setting tools, but the prices start at $100.00. AngleWright
is one that comes to mind. There is a new offering someone is making a fixture
that magnetically attaches to the exposed TS blade and incorporates a plumb bob
traversing an engine divided angle quadrant. I misplaced or loaned the catalog,
but it too was >$150.00.
> The alternative would be router bits in 30 deg., 22.5 deg. but I have yet to
> find a supplier for these.
Angle 11.5� 15� 22.5� 30� 45� 45�
(B)
Sided
Object 16 12 8 6 4 4
Major 1 1
Dia 7/8 1 1 1/41 1/2 5/8 7/16
Shank 1/2 1/2 1/2 1/2 1/2 1/2
Price N.A. 14.00 15.0016.00 N.A. 15.00
I did not see the 11.5� available individually. The exact 45� one as in the set
is not available singly either, the B offering I found was on another catalog
page.
The seller, The Woodworker's Choice, is offering a kit, consisting of the first
five bits I've listed, in a wooden box, for 65.00.
http://www.1-800-twc-4tools.com Land line is 1-800-twc-4tools
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:25 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
Jim & Deb Warman wrote:
>
> Looking for recommendations for a jig/method/magic wand for setting blade
> angle on table saw. The markings on my indicator have precious little to do
> with the real world.
>
Very simple - very accurate - shop made jig for this.
Remember Trig Class back in school? (NO! I suffer from
Can't Remember Shit Syndrome) Got a big framing square?
Got a ruler with 1/4" or better markings on it?
What you want is something like a machinist's SINE block.
Say you want 30 DEGREE. Tilt your saw to what you *THINK* is 30 DEGREE.
Take your *LARGE* framing square (remember: LARGER is BETTER)
Put the SHORT side against the saw blade, long side towards the table.
Assuming your framing square is 24" on the long side. Measure from
the top of your table, to the END of the 24" square. IF the end
of the square is exactly 12" up, you have the saw at 30 DEGREES.
(You need to be within +/- 3/8 inch to be +/- 1 degree)
Important note here: The *RIGHT* ANGLE square pointy part of your
framing square should be touching your saw blade *AT EXACTLY* the same
place your saw blade crosses the plane of the table saw surface. In
effect
at the same place a the blade would be coming out of a zero clearance
insert.
Hint: I don't have a fancy zero clearance plate. So I use a 1x4, with a
45 DEGREE
angle at the end like I was going to make a mitered box (not picture
frame).
I Slide the 1x4 against the saw blade and use the top of the 1x4 as a
convenient
measuring point [table top replacement] This keeps the point of the
square
from falling inside the big hole the saw comes out of.
Now - How does this work? For all you trig flunkies - a 30 DEGREE angle
is simplest
to explain. An equilateral triangle has 3 sides - all the same length.
The 3 angles
are also the same. (They happen to be 60 degrees). The angle at each
corner
is 60 DEGREES, think of it as the letter "A".
1) If you draw a straight line straight down from the tippy top of the
"A"
to to the bottom line, it will divide the angle at the top exactly in
half
right? [shake your head: yes] Half of 60 is 30 right?
2) This line will also divide the bottom of the triangle in half right?
[answer: yes] Well, let's look at this half triangle. If the *LONG*
side
is 24" long (the size of our framing square) the bottom is 24 inches
across. Dividing that in half, gives 12" on each side.
3) What we have now is a 30-60-90 triangle. (This is the shape of the
pointy
type of drafting triangle). There are 3 sides, the long HYPOTENUSE
the middle length, and the short side. Pretend you put the pointy end
touching your saw blade, the middle length side is against the table.
and the shortest side is far from your saw blade. This is the shape
your framing square, 12" rule and table saw top makes right?
4) Knowing that your framing square is 24" long, we know the HYPOTENUSE
is 24" long, thus - if the short side is 12" long, [ie: the 24" mark
on the framing square is 12" above the saw table top] we have a
30-60-90
triangle.
Your framing square is a easy method of translating [or rotating] the
angle from saw tabletop - to the angle of the blade.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:
1) Ok - 30/60/90 I can do, but I need a 19 DEGREE angle, how can I do
that?
Easy - Use the WINDOWS calculator program (or any trusty calculator)
and type the following:
LENGTH ANGLE HEIGHT
24 <TIMES> 19 <SIN> <EQUALS> - gives: 7.813 INCHES.
Really? Is this for real? Try the 30-60-90 example above,
LENGTH ANGLE HEIGHT
24 <TIMES> 30 <SIN> <EQUALS> - gives: 12 INCHES.
2) Just how accurate do I need to be with this thing? My damn ruler is
not
that great... [aka: I can't measure very good].
Question: How close do I have to be within +/- 1 DEGREE?
Simple: The math works like this:
Using a 6" fancy-dancy expensive engineer setup square:
6 <TIMES> 29 <SINE> <EQUALS> 2.908 (not so easy!)
6 <TIMES> 30 <SINE> <EQUALS> 3 (exact)
6 <TIMES> 31 <SINE> <EQUALS> 3.090
Using a 12" square:
LENGTH ANGLE HEIGHT
12 <TIMES> 29 <SINE> <EQUALS> 5.817 (easier)
12 <TIMES> 30 <SINE> <EQUALS> 6
12 <TIMES> 31 <SINE> <EQUALS> 6.180
Using a big cheap 24" aluminum framing square:
LENGTH ANGLE HEIGHT
24 <TIMES> 29 <SINE> <EQUALS> 11.635 (about 3/8 of an inch off)
24 <TIMES> 30 <SINE> <EQUALS> 12.000 (exact)
24 <TIMES> 31 <SINE> <EQUALS> 12.360 (about 3/8 of an inch
off)
Ok - now I know there are *MORE* then a few guys out there who don't
have
a calculator, can't remember trig - let alone the can't remember shit
problem.
So using a 24" framing square here are a few dimensions you can use:
Angle -1 PERFECT +1 (fractional, tolearnce)
5.0 1.674 2.092 2.509 2 1/16 [+/- 1/4"]
10.0 3.754 4.168 4.579 4 3/16
15.0 5.806 6.212 6.615 6 3/16
20.0 7.814 8.208 8.601 8 3/16
22.5 8.796 9.184 9.570 9 3/16
30.0 11.635 12.000 12.361 12 [+/- 3/8"]
37.5 14.276 14.610 14.940 14 10/16
40.0 15.104 15.427 15.745 15 7/16
45.0 16.672 16.971 17.264 17 [+/- 3/4"]
The first column is the desired angle.
The next 3 columns is the exactly decimal height for a 24" square.
Both the perfect - and +/-1 degree off are given.
The (fractional) column rounded to the nearest 1/16 inch.
--- warning --- If you try this in a spread sheet, you should *FIRST*
do this test, find the SINE of 30, it *MUST* be 0.5. If you get
-0.988 instead, your spread sheet [or caculator] is working in
RADIANS - (press they "D-R-G" [degree, radian, gradients] button
repeat the process until SINE of 30 is 0.5). Under Microsoft
Excel/Ex-Smell,
you use this formula instead: =sin( RADIANS( 30 ) ), as Ex-Smell prefers
to work in radians instead.
--Duane.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:37 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Setting TS blade angle.
Ken Martin wrote: [about my table saw angle stuff]
>
> Duane:
> Great note! Thanks for taking the effort.
> Ken Martin
>
BTW - You can use the same basic trick when setting that lousy stupid
always wrong cheap miter gauge for that exact miter cut.
Also - If you have a large panel you need to angle cut, you can use the
same
trick with a couple 2x2's and a cheap hinge. Norm-The-Man-Of-Many-Tools
uses some thing like that, I think Vermont American makes the tool he
uses.
You place 1 2x2 against the fence, the panel against the other
2x2 and push away.
-Duane.
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 4:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Shapers
All:
Am planning to buy a shaper. While price is a consideration, I am
willing to pay for a quality product. I have used a shaper on a few
occasions, but do not have much experience with them. Would like to get
some feed back from those of you that have some experience. Like to
know what is important and what is not. Specifically, what is a
adequate power? Is a 3 HP adequate or do I need to look for more
power? What about maximum speed? What type of fence system? How
important is a reversible motor? What about table size?
The main purpose of this machine will be to produce raised panel
doors in addition to moldings.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Ken MartinFrom: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 6:19 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Shapers
Ken-
I have used the Delta 3 horse 2-speed shaper in my shop for ten years, but
perhaps only actually use it several times a year. The usual task is
making raised panels or windows. If I were to buy again, I would get a
sliding table version, I think, and for doors you want to make sure that you
get a big table to support the longer pieces involved. This shaper has
worked fine for me, no complaints about the tool.
Bob
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 6:50 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Ken Martin
Subject: Re: Shapers
Ken,
I bought a Jet and am happy with it.
I based this decision on personal inspection and a pretty in-depth
magazine evaluation that told me some things I'd never have thought
of. I still have a copy at home but can't remember the rag or issue.
If you want a copy I'd be glad to send it. Or if you or anybody else
wants me to elaborate on my decision process I'll type some more.
Jim
Antioch, IL
From: Lokesh Dookie [lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 11:29 AM
To: Ron Devlin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away?
Hi Ron,
I did the same thing a few years ago. My used RAS came with nine blades
in various stages of "somewhat sharp" to "woodburner." Three were
carbide and the rest were vintage HSS blades. I asked one of the local
rent-all places where they have their tools sharpened and got prices
from them.
So address in hand, I gathered my (10" and 7-1/4") blades, router bits
and a handsaws to them. The shop boss took a look at the blades and told
me which ones are worth sharpening and which ones are good for wall
clocks. For carbide blades it was something like $12 (2-40-tooth) and
$18 (above 40-tooth) per blade plus tooth replacement if needed. The HSS
blades weren't worth his time so we talked for a few minutes and he
explained how to do it with a file! Simple, no fuss, and I even learned
something.
So, if a sharpening service is nearby, I'd go straight to the pro's.
Tell them what you're doing and they'll also give you a few pointers for
when you decide to buy new blades. My Forest WW-1 is VERY nice, still
very sharp, and very recommended. (Can you hear that big blade debate
thread gathering momentum in the background?) I also have a Freud
24-tooth rip blade too for those times I'm, as Clint Eastwood would say,
"feeling lucky."
So, have the sharpening service look at it first, they'll tell you if
it's worth sharpening or not. That's my 2-cents worth.
G'day eh,
Lokesh
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 12:36 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away?
>I recently purchased a slightly used RAS (that's another story. It
>came w/ a very dull Marathon 10" combo 36 tooth carbide blade. Is it
>worth getting it sharpened or toss it? I've never heard of this brand.
http://www.pedersenbros.com/carbide.htm gives a little info.
These are high end consumer/lower end contractor items. Probably not worth
the cost to sharpen, IMO.
John
From: Ron Devlin [rpdevlin at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 12:45 PM
To: John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget. SWMBO is on the war
path. "Some bargin, now what do you have to buy???" She says. :-(
"It's got to have a blde to work!" I say.
And then my favorite line: "Can't you use the one you've got?" NO I
CAN'T!!!
HD has a nice Freud at $45, but I'm considering others.
Ron Devlin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Lokesh Dookie [lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 3:21 PM
To: Ron Devlin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Hi Ron,
Regarding the RAS and blades, go for the "saftey" blade. A RAS tends to
self-feed as you pull the blade into the stock. The "nub" on the other
end of the tooth design helps to limit the amount of bite per tooth. I'm
sorry I didn't get it when I purchased my Freud TK (thin kerf) blade
from HD.
Up here, the TK blade was in the sixty-dollar range (Canadian!) so it is
likely the same one you are thinking of. Go the more expensive specialty
blades when SWMBO calms down and when you get used to the saw. My SWMBO
was quite happy after the shiny new kitchen pantry done. The 4-month
(and counting) set of booksheves is another matter.
Regards,
Lokesh
----------
Ron Devlin wrote:
>
> Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
> decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
> cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget. SWMBO is on the war
> path. "Some bargin, now what do you have to buy???" She says. :-(
> "It's got to have a blde to work!" I say.
> And then my favorite line: "Can't you use the one you've got?" NO I
> CAN'T!!!
>
> HD has a nice Freud at $45, but I'm considering others.
>
> Ron Devlin
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
--
|------------------ Total Care For Your Networks -----------------|
| |
| Some say yes | Lokesh Dookie |
| Other say no | Technical Support |
| As for me ... | GN Nettest - Broadband Division |
| I'm inclined to agree | 55 Renfrew Drive |
| ... author unknown ... | Markham Ontario, Canada L3R-8H3 |
| |
| http://www.gnnettest.com lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com |
| |
|----- (v):800-465-9400 (v)905-479-8090 (f):905-475-6524 -----|
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:50 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Lokesh Dookie wrote:
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Regarding the RAS and blades, go for the "saftey" blade. A RAS tends to
> self-feed as you pull the blade into the stock. The "nub" on the other
> end of the tooth design helps to limit the amount of bite per tooth. I'm
> sorry I didn't get it when I purchased my Freud TK (thin kerf) blade
> from HD.
> Regards,
> Lokesh
One problem in purchasing negative hook RAS blades is that those
available are all fine tooth! Another problem is that most negative hook
blades available are not for over 10" saws.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 5:00 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Devlin <rpdevlin at yahoo.com>
>Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
>decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
>cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget. SWMBO is on the war
>path. "Some bargin, now what do you have to buy???" She says. :-(
>"It's got to have a blde to work!" I say.
>And then my favorite line: "Can't you use the one you've got?" NO I
>CAN'T!!!
>
>HD has a nice Freud at $45, but I'm considering others.
>
Slow down a moment there pardner.
You want to make sure to get a blade designed for the RAS, not a table saw
blade. In general this means one with a small, zero, or better yet negative
hook angle. Table saw blades generally have a fairly aggressive positive
hook angle.
These days you are more likely to find the blade you need being sold as
ideal for the SCMS, since it has similar dynamics to the RAS.
In a Freud blade something like the LU91-10 or the Teflon coated LU91-10R
should do the trick. 10", 60 tooth ATB, -5 deg. hook. McFeely's has them
for $59.95 (800)443-7937.
Jesada and Forrest have nice blades of this type, but they are even more
expensive.
Decisions, decisions!
John
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 8:25 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Devlin <rpdevlin at yahoo.com>
>
> >Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
> >decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
> >cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget.
> Slow down a moment there pardner.
>
> You want to make sure to get a blade designed for the RAS, not a table saw
> blade. In general this means one with a small, zero, or better yet negative
> hook angle. Table saw blades generally have a fairly aggressive positive
> hook angle.
John is right on with the above.
>
> These days you are more likely to find the blade you need being sold as
> ideal for the SCMS, since it has similar dynamics to the RAS.
John,
I believe if you re-read the information on various blades you will see
that that SCMS blades and chopsaw blades are not recommended for RAS.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 8:48 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
>John,
>I believe if you re-read the information on various blades you will see
>that that SCMS blades and chopsaw blades are not recommended for RAS.
I've come across this in multiple publications. One which I can reference
quickly is the McFeeley's catalog, page 55 in the Freud blade section where
they recommend the LU91 for SCMS and RAS.
John
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:40 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; John T. Horner
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
I'm sure I must be over simplifying, but if I go to a reputable tool dealer
and explain to a knowledgable salesperson what I want. I can find the blade
I need. Most of the better blades describe their function on their
packaging. What I see when I look is: Rip blades, crosscut blades, combo
blades, and CMS blades. It seems that most mfgrs think a RAS is a crosscut
saw and recommend that type of blade. Without the benefit of rocket
science, I try to figure out what I'll use the blade for, and then pick a
blade that is recommended for that use. I realize that this may brand me as
a newbie, but all I know to rely on is folks on this newsgroup, friends with
experience, and those damned salespeople. By the way, it's easy to spot a
phony salesperson. Ask questions and pay attention to the answers. If you
don't pick up any slant, don't worry. You need to learn the lesson you'll
get from buying something that doesn't work for you. This ain't terminal.
You'll notice the difference between OK and correct. Normally your
customers won't. Make the same mistakes too many times and it catches up
with you. If you love your customers, they'll know it. Would you like to
join my church?
Gary Cavener
From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
To: John T. Horner
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Devlin <rpdevlin at yahoo.com>
>
> >Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
> >decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
> >cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget.
> Slow down a moment there pardner.
>
> You want to make sure to get a blade designed for the RAS, not a table saw
> blade. In general this means one with a small, zero, or better yet
negative
> hook angle. Table saw blades generally have a fairly aggressive positive
> hook angle.
John is right on with the above.
>
> These days you are more likely to find the blade you need being sold as
> ideal for the SCMS, since it has similar dynamics to the RAS.
John,
I believe if you re-read the information on various blades you will see
that that SCMS blades and chopsaw blades are not recommended for RAS.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 3:52 PM
To: lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com
Cc: Ron Devlin; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Wrong 2 cents, perhaps, but I am extremely happy with
my Oldham "Woodworking Wizard" on my RAS. Super smooth
cuts. About $40.00.
Lokesh Dookie wrote:
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Regarding the RAS and blades, go for the "saftey" blade. A RAS tends to
> self-feed as you pull the blade into the stock. The "nub" on the other
> end of the tooth design helps to limit the amount of bite per tooth. I'm
> sorry I didn't get it when I purchased my Freud TK (thin kerf) blade
> from HD.
>
> Up here, the TK blade was in the sixty-dollar range (Canadian!) so it is
> likely the same one you are thinking of. Go the more expensive specialty
> blades when SWMBO calms down and when you get used to the saw. My SWMBO
> was quite happy after the shiny new kitchen pantry done. The 4-month
> (and counting) set of booksheves is another matter.
>
> Regards,
> Lokesh
> ----------
>
> Ron Devlin wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
> > decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
> > cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget. SWMBO is on the war
> > path. "Some bargin, now what do you have to buy???" She says. :-(
> > "It's got to have a blde to work!" I say.
> > And then my favorite line: "Can't you use the one you've got?" NO I
> > CAN'T!!!
> >
> > HD has a nice Freud at $45, but I'm considering others.
> >
> > Ron Devlin
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> --
> |------------------ Total Care For Your Networks -----------------|
> | |
> | Some say yes | Lokesh Dookie |
> | Other say no | Technical Support |
> | As for me ... | GN Nettest - Broadband Division |
> | I'm inclined to agree | 55 Renfrew Drive |
> | ... author unknown ... | Markham Ontario, Canada L3R-8H3 |
> | |
> | http://www.gnnettest.com lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com |
> | |
> |----- (v):800-465-9400 (v)905-479-8090 (f):905-475-6524 -----|
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:09 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Most of the time with a RAS you will be
cross-cutting. But you can rip on a RAS, so that is also a
blade consideration.
Gary Cavener wrote:
>
> I'm sure I must be over simplifying, but if I go to a reputable tool dealer
> and explain to a knowledgable salesperson what I want. I can find the blade
> I need. Most of the better blades describe their function on their
> packaging. What I see when I look is: Rip blades, crosscut blades, combo
> blades, and CMS blades. It seems that most mfgrs think a RAS is a crosscut
> saw and recommend that type of blade. Without the benefit of rocket
> science, I try to figure out what I'll use the blade for, and then pick a
> blade that is recommended for that use. I realize that this may brand me as
> a newbie, but all I know to rely on is folks on this newsgroup, friends with
> experience, and those damned salespeople. By the way, it's easy to spot a
> phony salesperson. Ask questions and pay attention to the answers. If you
> don't pick up any slant, don't worry. You need to learn the lesson you'll
> get from buying something that doesn't work for you. This ain't terminal.
> You'll notice the difference between OK and correct. Normally your
> customers won't. Make the same mistakes too many times and it catches up
> with you. If you love your customers, they'll know it. Would you like to
> join my church?
>
> Gary Cavener
>
> From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
> To: John T. Horner
> Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
>
> John T. Horner wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Devlin <rpdevlin at yahoo.com>
> >
> > >Ok, I'll toss it. Better to spend my $$$ on a new blade. Now I have to
> > >decide on what to replace it with; a nice combo to start (rip & cross
> > >cut blades later). I've got a $50-$65 budget.
>
> > Slow down a moment there pardner.
> >
> > You want to make sure to get a blade designed for the RAS, not a table saw
> > blade. In general this means one with a small, zero, or better yet
> negative
> > hook angle. Table saw blades generally have a fairly aggressive positive
> > hook angle.
>
> John is right on with the above.
>
> >
> > These days you are more likely to find the blade you need being sold as
> > ideal for the SCMS, since it has similar dynamics to the RAS.
>
> John,
> I believe if you re-read the information on various blades you will see
> that that SCMS blades and chopsaw blades are not recommended for RAS.
> --
> Don Weisman
> Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:01 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
John T. Horner wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
> >John,
> >I believe if you re-read the information on various blades you will see
> >that that SCMS blades and chopsaw blades are not recommended for RAS.
>
> I've come across this in multiple publications. One which I can reference
> quickly is the McFeeley's catalog, page 55 in the Freud blade section where
> they recommend the LU91 for SCMS and RAS.
>
> John
John,
Seeing is believing, and that's what it says allright. And it's the
right hook too!
Thanks for the correction.
(Too bad it's not offered in larger than 10" and with fewer teeth.)
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:18 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
At 21:39 22/10/98 -0700, Gary Cavener wrote:
>I'm sure I must be over simplifying, but if I go to a reputable tool dealer
>and explain to a knowledgable salesperson what I want. I can find the blade
>I need. Most of the better blades describe their function on their
>packaging. What I see when I look is: Rip blades, crosscut blades, combo
>blades, and CMS blades. It seems that most mfgrs think a RAS is a crosscut
>saw and recommend that type of blade. Without the benefit of rocket
>science, I try to figure out what I'll use the blade for, and then pick a
>blade that is recommended for that use.
Actually I have discovered that to do this is the very worst thing to do. I
have a DeWalt Ras with a useless blade that came with it. I got Mr
Sawdust's book on how to do everything with a RAS and I highly recommend
you get the book too before you buy any blades at all. (It is called 'How
to Master the Radial Saw' by Wally Kunkel and it can be obtained from the
website at www.maracorp.com - I have no affiliation with Wally's family,
just a happy customer). Wally unfortunately died last year, but the legacy
of his book is a boon to radial saw owners.
About blades, I learned from Wally to consider some things. First get a
triple chip blade as opposed to alternate tooth blades. Also get a negative
hook/rake blade, about minus five degrees. Most importantly consider
getting a blade *smaller* than the size the RAS takes. Mine takes a 10" so
I got an 8". This has tremendous benefits and only one small disadvantage,
you can cut over two inches but not quite three thick - believe me this is
very minor, just tune up the saw as per Wally and turn the wood over, thats
the way you would cut 4" anyhow.
Now for the advantages: You have nearly 50 percent more power with the
smaller blade, it turns faster (do the geometry) and you can cut around two
inches wider - much more important. Also the blade I have which is designed
for aluminium and plastic laminates - a De Walt 8" 80 tooth negative rake
triple chip blade cuts wood like a plane, does not climb the wood eager to
get at you and is superb in its finsh. It is almost silent. Cuts just as
quick and ten times better than the old blade. (both TCT). The other
advantage is that the 8" blade is cheaper. The finish is so good that you
can actually set up the saw as a jointer (read the book).
I have cut oak pine, mahogany and others on this saw and it is ten million
times better with the smaller, faster and more powerful blade geometry. I
can never see that I would ever need another blade - ever. For anything.
My ten cents worth (or 10 pence in Scottish money)
Ray
Loch Ness - Scotland.
From: Jim Lunden [jlunden at sma-promail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 6:51 AM
To: 'Ray Berry'
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Ray:
Please explain how the same motor generates more power and speed with a
smaller blade.
Jim Lunden
Avon, CT
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Berry [mailto:entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 8:18 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
[snippage]
Now for the advantages: You have nearly 50 percent more power with the
smaller blade, it turns faster (do the geometry) and you can cut around
two
inches wider - much more important. Also the blade I have which is
designed
for aluminium and plastic laminates - a De Walt 8" 80 tooth negative
rake
triple chip blade cuts wood like a plane, does not climb the wood eager
to
get at you and is superb in its finsh. It is almost silent. Cuts just as
quick and ten times better than the old blade. (both TCT). The other
advantage is that the 8" blade is cheaper. The finish is so good that
you
can actually set up the saw as a jointer (read the book).
I have cut oak pine, mahogany and others on this saw and it is ten
million
times better with the smaller, faster and more powerful blade geometry.
I
can never see that I would ever need another blade - ever. For anything.
My ten cents worth (or 10 pence in Scottish money)
Ray
Loch Ness - Scotland.
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:52 AM
To: Ray Berry
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; John T. Horner; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
Ray,
We must live in different worlds. It sounds like you figured out what was
best for you. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where there are
some excellent tool dealers that really know their stuff. As you have so
aptly demonstrated, the blade needs to suit the individual woodworking even
more than the tool - ie: how are you going to use it? Mr. Sawdust seems to
think we should use the RAS for everything. For *most* everything, I use my
TS and CMS. I still hang on to my RAS because my CMS is not an SCMS. (You
gotta love all these acronyms) I go months at a time without firing it up,
and it's not because I'm not producing sawdust.
I just finished doing my geometry. I disagree on a couple of points and
agree on others. I say the speed of the blade where the teeth meet the wood
will be slower with a smaller blade. The saw will normally cut slower. The
saw will seem to have more power with a small blade because it is not doing
as much work (cutting slower), and for lack of the correct word, the motor
is not being leveraged as much. The saw will cut *less* width with a
smaller blade. If you still have a 10" blade, compare cuts. The
motor/blade unit has a certain amount of travel. The distance sawn has to
be greater with a larger blade, unless you introduce some other limitation.
The only benefits I see for using a smaller blade are to compensate for a
lack of power, and to get a more vertical start and end to the cut.
Your new blade is faster than your old blade for one reason: it's a better
blade.
At 21:39 22/10/98 -0700, Gary Cavener wrote:
>I'm sure I must be over simplifying, but if I go to a reputable tool dealer
>and explain to a knowledgable salesperson what I want, I can find the blade
>I need. Most of the better blades describe their function on their
>packaging. What I see when I look is: Rip blades, crosscut blades, combo
>blades, and CMS blades. It seems that most mfgrs think a RAS is a crosscut
>saw and recommend that type of blade. Without the benefit of rocket
>science, I try to figure out what I'll use the blade for, and then pick a
>blade that is recommended for that use.
Actually I have discovered that to do this is the very worst thing to do. I
have a DeWalt Ras with a useless blade that came with it. I got Mr
Sawdust's book on how to do everything with a RAS and I highly recommend
you get the book too before you buy any blades at all. (It is called 'How
to Master the Radial Saw' by Wally Kunkel and it can be obtained from the
website at www.maracorp.com - I have no affiliation with Wally's family,
just a happy customer). Wally unfortunately died last year, but the legacy
of his book is a boon to radial saw owners.
About blades, I learned from Wally to consider some things. First get a
triple chip blade as opposed to alternate tooth blades. Also get a negative
hook/rake blade, about minus five degrees. Most importantly consider
getting a blade *smaller* than the size the RAS takes. Mine takes a 10" so
I got an 8". This has tremendous benefits and only one small disadvantage,
you can cut over two inches but not quite three thick - believe me this is
very minor, just tune up the saw as per Wally and turn the wood over, thats
the way you would cut 4" anyhow.
Now for the advantages: You have nearly 50 percent more power with the
smaller blade, it turns faster (do the geometry) and you can cut around two
inches wider - much more important. Also the blade I have which is designed
for aluminium and plastic laminates - a De Walt 8" 80 tooth negative rake
triple chip blade cuts wood like a plane, does not climb the wood eager to
get at you and is superb in its finsh. It is almost silent. Cuts just as
quick and ten times better than the old blade. (both TCT). The other
advantage is that the 8" blade is cheaper. The finish is so good that you
can actually set up the saw as a jointer (read the book).
I have cut oak pine, mahogany and others on this saw and it is ten million
times better with the smaller, faster and more powerful blade geometry. I
can never see that I would ever need another blade - ever. For anything.
My ten cents worth (or 10 pence in Scottish money)
Ray
Loch Ness - Scotland.
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 10:29 AM
To: Jim Lunden
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; sawdust at maracorp.com
Subject: RE: Sharpen it or throw it away? I've decided!
At 09:51 23/10/98 -0400, Jim Lunden wrote:
>Ray:
>
>Please explain how the same motor generates more power and speed with a
>smaller blade.
>
>Jim Lunden
>Avon, CT
>
I'll try to answer this storm of replies:
If the rpm stays the same, the speed at the edge of the blade is less. But
if the blade is smaller the blade is more efficient and lighter and a given
motor hp gives more rpm - unless rpm is governed, of course, which it isn't
in this application. Thats my theory, it certainly seems to turn a lot
quicker but there is no way to test this.
To try to deal with the other stuff, I will quote Wally Kunkel from his
book - I hope no-one minds, the copyright belongs to the Kunkel family and
I am quoting this not for profit... in fact Wally would have loved the
argument I guess....
>From Wally Kunkel:
"I am reminded that, in the later years,
the 10" DeWalt became a 12" DeWalt
without increasing its horsepower. This
was a simple matter of putting a bigger
saw guard on a 10" machine and making
some false claims. It was done "to be
competitive
Let's think about that. Let's say we
have a 1 hp motor. Not "developed
horsepower". This motor draws 11 amps
- so we're certain of our 1 hp. It's
enough to swing a 10" blade through
most normal situations. It will maintain
its rpms - which translates into a near
constant "rim speed". This, in turn, has to
do with centrifugal force - helping to
keep the blade rigid.
Now, taking this situation, let's take
off the 10" blade and replace it with a
12". We have the same horsepower -
but less leverage in the cut.
How much less?
The diameter of a 10" blade is 31.4
inches. The diameter of a 12" blade is
37.7 inches. That's 8% less leverage.
We can also be facetious and put a 24"
blade on our 1 hp motor - and we've
lost over 50% of our leverage. We could
probably take hold of the rim - and it
wouldn't turn it out of our hand. (You go
first!)
We can go so far as to say that
horsepower doesn't cut wood - leverage
cuts wood.
It's the effective power that's left after
we subtract the nature of the wood, the
quality of the blade and the rate of feed.
If the rim-speed is still enough to make
the cut, we have adequate leverage.
Granted, many a reader will call this
"science-fiction" - but let's go the other
direction.
Let's put an 8" blade on our 1 hp
motor. Wow, what a difference! 8%
more leverage than a 10" - over 50%
more than a 12" - and we're really
cutting wood!
With this improved operation, from
whatever source it derives, we enjoy
greater safety - better control of the
material and better performance by the
blade.
The depth of cut with an 8" blade on a
DeWalt is 2-1/8" (over 8/4). It can also
make 450 bevel-cuts on full 5/4 material.
The blade is much quieter - and it costs
less than a 10"!
Now you know why I use 8" blades.
The only time I use larger is when I need
a greater depth of cut. Which is very rare!
Ray
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 9:32 PM
To: Woodworking Mail List
Subject: Sharpening Router Bits
I figured for the money they might be throw away bits. BUT they do
have good sharp edges and seem like I should get a sharpening or
two out of them. I'd encourage you to buy one or two and give them
a go. Good way for someone with few or no bits to get started with.
I'd like to start a new thread with the above quote from Marty. Who
among you sharpens your own router bits? That's pretty hard, but I do
it. Use a diamond hone, but only on the flat side. Don't mess with the
profile. Anyone else do it?
Gerald
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 5:15 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sharpening Router Bits
>I'd like to start a new thread with the above quote from Marty. Who
>among you sharpens your own router bits? That's pretty hard, but I do
>it. Use a diamond hone, but only on the flat side. Don't mess with the
>profile. Anyone else do it?
>Gerald
I'll throw in with you Gerald and offer up this article from the
Highland Hardware site called "Care and Sharpening of Router Bits".
http://highland-hardware.com/HighlandH/wood/bits.html
And this from John Paquay's Web page.
http://lafayette.indy.net/~belex/carbide.txt
Keith Bohn
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:36 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Sharpening Router Bits
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Mayer <gmayer at uconect.net>
Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Sharpening Router Bits
>I'd like to start a new thread with the above quote from Marty. Who
>among you sharpens your own router bits? That's pretty hard, but I do
>it. Use a diamond hone, but only on the flat side. Don't mess with the
>profile. Anyone else do it?
I really thought you'd get more comments on this one Gerald. I started
sharpening router bits almost 30 years ago, not for myself, but for my dad.
Even though he was a prototype machinist for Monsanto, and knew the merits
of carbide, the man would not invest in a decent set of carbide bits! He
still has some of those old HSS bits. Had to work the flats on oilstones,
and really hated that messy job. Oil and slurry all over my hands. YEECH!
But the lessons stayed with me. I only have one or two steel cutters, all
the rest are carbide. And instead of oilstones, I've discovered the beauty
of diamond stones. NO OIL NEEDED! The flats still get touched up when
needed. For the most part, I leave the radiuses alone though. Just as the
current thread on Forstner's, you'll be amazed what a truly sharp edge will
do for you. I think that the power of our machines, sometimes, hides some
of the lack of sharpness of our cutters. You'll notice it real quick when
working with "hand power" though.
From: Ken Kansco [kkansco at earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 9:23 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Sharping System
Does anyone have any experience with the Makita 9820-2 sharpener? It
looks like it will sharpen planer and joiner knives well. How does it
compair to others? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance - Ken
Kenneth C. Kansco
Horticultural Associates of Rochester, Inc.
716-374-8935 Fax 716-374-9398
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 7:48 AM
To: The Oak
Subject: Re: Sharping Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: g43 <g43 at tc3net.com>
Looking to buy a sharpening system. Presently, I have two in mind. They
are the delta Sharpening Center and the Makita System. Has anyone had
experience with either of these two units or any other unit that is
comparable. I would appreciate all comments pro and con.
I have the Makita and I'm happy with it. When I examined it and the
Delta side by side, the Makita seemed to be the better made machine. It
handles by 12" planer knives nicely.
John
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 8:27 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: The Oak
Subject: Re: Sharping Systems
I have the makita horizontal wet wheel sharpener and find that it does a
good job on jointer and planer knives. Incidentally the blade holder can
securely hold knives up to 15-16" long. Bill Stankus in a book titled
something like Building Your Own Woodworking Shop has pics of a simple
wood platform, built level with the top of the wheel, which can be used
to rest a Veritas or other chisel/plane iron jig, so that you don't need
to buy the optional jig for this purpose. Body is plastic, but
alignment and blade holder parts are machined steel/cast iron and are
accurate. The 1000 grit wheel which comes with the unit is a fine all
around grit; the coarse and 6000 grit, if desired, can be ordered later
via any Makita service depot. I still use bench stones for chisel and
plane irons because of their greater convenience (the Makita requires
set-up, draining the reservoir after use).
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 9:24 AM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: The Oak
Subject: Re: Sharping Systems
I have the Delta and would not buy it again.There is a optional jig for
$80 to handle planer blades and it works but the stone is very soft and
about $55 to replace.I do most of my sharpening on a 8" slow speed
grinder.
Mike Bridges
From: Carl Seyfarth [carlann at slic.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 5:06 PM
To: g43
Cc: The Oak
Subject: Re: Sharping Systems
Hi:
I bought the Delta. Didn't like it. I use mostly hand tools and
couldn't get the stone to be square with the tool rest so getting a
square edge on my plane and chisel blades. There was also a problem
with the tool holder. It wasn't designed to hold chisels with a bevel
edge. I asked Delta what to do. They responded that most chisels do
not have beveled sides so it wasn't an issue. (No response to the
squareness issue). I suggested that they go to a hardware store and try
to buy a flat sided chisel (I know they exist and regularly use them but
I was trying to make a point)
The bottom line is that I took the Delta back to Woodworker's Warehouse
and exchanged it for the Makita (Wood Worker's was very cooperative and
helpful in this area) I am happy with the Makita and use each of the
three grades of stones.
Good luck
Carl
g43 wrote:
> Looking to buy a sharpening system. Presently, I have two in mind.
> They are the delta Sharpening Center and the Makita System. Has anyone
> had experience with either of these two units or any other unit that
> is comparable. I would appreciate all comments pro and
> con. Thanks Roger
From: Michael R. Shortreed [mshort at Chem.LSA.UMich.Edu]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 1:55 PM
To: Bill Brady
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Shellac "spit coat" ??
for a "spit coat" does it matter what
type of shellac is used. By that I mean, is there much difference between
button lac, orange shellac, lemon and super blonde? The reason I ask is
that I am going to purchase some & all seem to be $10/jar except the super
blonde which is $30. The recipe I have is to use the super blonde
followed by wax. I am thinking that there can't be all that much
difference for such a dilute coat but then I have no experience. This may
seem like splitting hairs but my shop budget is only about $30 a month. I
am willing to buy the super blonde since I know it will last me and I
always buy the best if money permits BUT perhaps it is not necessary and
that will leave me with an extra $20 for misc. I should also mention that
this finish will be applied to cherry, oak and maple. Perhaps I could use
that $20 for a little oil on the cherry. hmmmm.
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Bill Brady wrote:
> Shellac is used by professionals under all finishes. This first coat is
> very thin and is called a "spit coat" or sanding sealer.
>
> I have also used shellac *over* linseed oil when the type of wood I'm
> using (cherry) releases it color only with the oil.
>
Dr. Michael R. Shortreed Iowa State University
Phone: (515) 294-1127 Rm. 7 Office & Laboratory
Fax: (515) 294-3623 Ames, IA 50011
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mshort/homepage.htm
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:55 PM
To: Michael R. Shortreed
Cc: Bill Brady; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac "spit coat" ??
Michael R. Shortreed wrote:
>
> for a "spit coat" does it matter what
> type of shellac is used. By that I mean, is there much difference between
> button lac, orange shellac, lemon and super blonde?
Michael,
Button lac has bits of "dirt", and such in it. In other words, the
refining, if any, is very low. Consequently, it will be a darker brown
than any other shellac. Which is desireable when working on old or
antique items.
Orange shellac is much "cleaner". It has a distinct amber cast to it.
Lemon I am not familiar with.
Blonde or Super Blonde is about as clear a shellac as you will find.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 6:53 AM
To: Michael R. Shortreed; Bill Brady
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac "spit coat" ??
Howdy Mike
I think the answer to your question is that, which shellac you use,
especially for a spit coat (except possibly for the poorly refined button
lac), is purely a matter of esthetics. Personally I like the warmth that
your everyday amber shellac gives to wood and rather then spend money for
extra blond I'd just use lacquer if that were the look I was going for.
I think the highly refined blond or super blond would only come into play if
the amount of natural wax found in shellac comes into question, and you can
always dewax your own.
From: Lokesh Dookie [lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 12:31 PM
To: Mike G.
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Shellac "spit coat" ??
Howdy Mike,
This may sound obvious after it's answered but how does one "dewax"
shellac? I have a couple of small bags (1-lbs I think) of flakes.
<snip>
> I think the highly refined blond or super blond would only come into
play if
> the amount of natural wax found in shellac comes into question, and
you can
> always dewax your own.
<snip>
Lokesh
--
|------------------ Total Care For Your Networks -----------------|
| |
| Some say yes | Lokesh Dookie |
| Other say no | Technical Support |
| As for me ... | GN Nettest - Broadband Division |
| I'm inclined to agree | 55 Renfrew Drive |
| ... author unknown ... | Markham Ontario, Canada L3R-8H3 |
| |
| http://www.gnnettest.com lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com |
| |
|----- (v):800-465-9400 (v)905-479-8090 (f):905-475-6524 -----|
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 2:26 PM
To: lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com
Cc: Mike G.; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Shellac "spit coat" ??
Prepare some with alcohol, to the maximum concentration you think
you'll need and let it rest in a clear jar, glass probably. The wax
will settle to the bottom ; because it is so light you must siphon the
clear part of it to another container.
In chemistry equipment there exist a sort of glass funnel with a tap
at the bottom that could be useful for the same purpose.
Jean M.
From: Lokesh Dookie [lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: Mike G.; Gary L. Yarrow; Jean Montambeault
Subject: Re: Shellac "spit coat" ??
Howdy all,
Thanks Jean M, Mike G, and Gary Y. Now I know what that stuff is at the
bottom of the jar. After reading "rec.woodworking" for a while I started
to use the flakes.
I guess that I've managed to dewax my shellac without realizing it.
Soooo ... what do you do with the waxed-shellac?
Regards,
Lokesh
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:48 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Shellac in Garner
In an earlier post I mentioned that Home Depot and Lowes in Garner have
shellac. I was wrong. Only Lowes in Garner carries shellac and they only
have clear.
Sorry everyone, I couldn't remember who I sent the misinfo to (Bill maybe)
so I posted it to the list. I don't want someone making a trip for nothing.
Rick McQuay
--
From: Paul Warner [pjwarner at erols.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 6:51 PM
To: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Shellac/ lacquer
The Flexnor book states its ok to allpy lacquer over shellac. I
purchased Park's clear lacquer and decided to read through the
directions which state that it should not be applied over shellac. It
contains Nitrocelluose <sp?>; would that be the offending ingredient ?.
I tested with a scrap piece that had two coats of shellac on it and it
seems to be fine. Is it safe and if not what can I expect ????
Thanks,
Paul
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:14 PM
To: Paul Warner; The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
Paul Warner Wrote:
>The Flexnor book states its ok to allpy lacquer over shellac.
I've been doing it for 40 years.
>I purchased Park's clear lacquer and decided to read through the
>directions which state that it should not be applied over shellac.
Shellac contains a highly variable amount of wax. Lacquer is not totally
happy with the wax. Good quality shellac is not a problem, however.
> It
>contains Nitrocelluose <sp?>; would that be the offending ingredient ?.
No, it's the wax. You will find the same recommendation for other finish
types.
>I tested with a scrap piece that had two coats of shellac on it and it
>seems to be fine. Is it safe and if not what can I expect ????
Shellac is used by professionals under all finishes. This first coat is
very thin and is called a "spit coat" or sanding sealer.
I have also used shellac *over* linseed oil when the type of wood I'm
using (cherry) releases it color only with the oil.
Note that shellac is the only finish that does not darken with age.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who is getting ready for winter... Brrrr
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 2:47 AM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
Paul:
I have shot a fair amount of lacquer over the years and only shot it
over shellac a few times. Did not have a problem. Do not think that you
will either as long as you use a high quality FRESH shellac. It is
important that shellac be fresh as there is a shelf life. That being
said the question is why do you want to do that? If it is for a sanding
sealer why not use a lacquer sanding sealer?.
By the way all solvent based lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer.
Nitrocellulose was also know as gun cotton, and there was a great
quality of it left over after "the great war." Some smart chemist found
a way to make a coating out of it rather than gunpowder. A little
trivia.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:16 AM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
I don't know about Parks but I used Shewin Williams and Sico over
shellac a number of times without any problems. It is capital that you
use dewaxed shellac though.
Jean M.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 5:20 AM
To: Paul Warner; The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
Howdy Paul
A couple of comments. So far this morning I have read a confession to using
poly which, I hope my oft mentioned attitude towards poly wasn't the cause
of, and people who use one finish over another for other then a sealer coat,
and who knows what else will be sitting in the in box this fine morning.
There are a couple of some hard and fast rules for finishing that have to be
taken into account due to the physics of the whole thing. Things such as the
wax in shellac mentioned in this thread, or using stain and a like solvent
based finish, and what happens when you try to brush one on top of the
other. However, once those things have been taken into account the really
nice thing about the finishing process is that pretty much anything goes. If
it makes you feel right, makes your project's look right, it is right.
For reasons of my own I don't use, except for a sealer coat, one finish over
another. nor do I use poly, but there are far better woodworkers then I out
there who do either or both. so once you get some of the basic do's and
don'ts down don't be afraid to experiment.
Now, my take on shellac and lacquer. The shellac as a sealer (a 1 pound cut,
and at that degree of thinning I don't believe the wax is a problem) is
used by me, not to retard moisture absorbstion, but to seal in anything that
might try to leak out of the wood and ruin the finish i.e. sap from pine,
or when I am using a stain or dye that uses the same thinner/solvent as the
finish I am using.
A thought or two
Mike G.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 4:52 AM
To: Paul Warner
Cc: The OAK woodworking list
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
Paul Warner wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the reply, I used shellac a per the flexnor book and its
> staing that shellac is
> very good at retarding the moisture exchange. Would a lacquer sealer coat
> provide the
> same level of "sealing" ? The shellac was fresh (mixed from flakes).
> However, I regret using the clear shellac as it doesn't bring out the flakes
> in the quarter-sawn oak..
Personally, I wouldn't say that Shellac is "very good" at retarding the
moisture exchange, I'm inclined to say it's "okay" instead. The proof
is; how poorly Shellac is in tolorating moisture.
In reality, a Sanding Sealer doesn't seal at all! The word implies that
it does, and most everyone assumes that. However, the stearates in
Sanding Sealers can cause adhesion problems with topcoats down the road.
>From that point of view, Shellac is a superior "sealer". On the down
side, the very reason for Sanding Sealers is; that a easily sandable and
quick drying product is needed. Shellac is not.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Steve W [vistin at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 6:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Shellac/ lacquer
Mike G. wrote:
>
> Howdy Paul
>
> A couple of comments. So far this morning I have read a confession to using (SNIKKK)
Steve wrote:
I have been keeping up with his thread and now I have a question.
Whats best to use on tabletops. I have seen the use of poly? N wax?!!
Varnish, etc. Whats the best to deter water/alkie stains and other nasty
stuff. Now if yall can enliten me on this I would appreciate it.
Steve
> poly which,
> A thought or two
> Mike G.
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 12:51 PM
To: Wood
Subject: Shellac?
Hi Gang,
sealing knots in Pine to be painted, is shellac still
the only answer? I know when it is used as a primary finish it has to
be fresh. Is this the same when it is used as a sealer?
Thanks Andy
Georgetown Ont. Can.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 3:38 PM
To: sarrana at idirect.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Shellac?
Andy,
Yes, it should be fresh. It won't dry if it is not fresh. Be sure to let it
dry comlpetely before painting, else you'll get checks in your paint. Throw
it out if it does not dry like you think it should (as fast as). I can
think of nothing better than shellac for sealing. Zinnser brand (Bullseye)
now prints a date on the bottom of the can. Check yours. They say three
years. Here in Houston, I get about a year out of a can. I buy small(er)
cans now, so I don't have to throw away as much if I let it sit too long.
I've read that the stuff you mix yourself from flakes has a real short
shelf life, but have not actually had experience with it myself. I've been
through gallons of the above stuff though. I keep an aerosol can of
shellac too, just for small stuff like what you mentioned. But, it comes
out thin, so you have to apply more coats.
Todd.
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 2:35 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Shellac?
Hey Andy...
I use a base coat of waterbased poly-u, then a coat of shellac. It is best
if they are sprayed on rather than brushed. I don't believe there is any
way to permanently seal the knots from eventually bleeding through.
Yes... Shellac has to be fresh to cure properly anytime you use it. (just
lay down a coat of it on a piece of scrap to check)
Hope this helps.
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 8:24 PM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball; Wood
Subject: Re: Shellac?
Andy & Theresa Ball Wrote:
>I know when it is used as a primary finish it has to
>be fresh. Is this the same when it is used as a sealer?
Shellac must be fresh (I have found it to be 6 months or less) in order
to get *hard* enough to be polished with abrasives.
If you don't need to polish it ....
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Eatin' (many) tomatoes off the vine! Need
rain again.
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 5:52 AM
To: Andy & Theresa Ball; Wood
Subject: Re: Shellac?
Shellac is a good answer and a better one if you take the care of
washing the knots with a little lacquer thinner beforehand, especially
the big ones and if you're painting.
Jean Montambeault
Montr�al, Qu�bec, Canada, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, God's Backyard
Workshop
jrm at videotron.ca
http://pages.infinit.net/copeau
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 7:37 AM
To: Jean Montambeault
Cc: Andy & Theresa Ball; Wood
Subject: Re: Shellac?
I haven't used the Knot sealer in a long time, but I remember that after
painting there was always a tell-tale shiny spot wherever the sealer was
applied.
Damn, nothing is perfect.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 12:10 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Okay, y'all have sold me on the wonders of shellac. I've got a lovely
little
clock I made for my sister for Christmas, and I'd like to use Shellac on
it...
but:
Home Depot of Fayetteville, NC, has never heard of Shellac. (No kidding.
I asked the manager of the paint department if they had any Shellac--
"What's that?")
A real old guy working in the finishing department at Lowe's has heard of
it, but doesn't know where to get any.
The specialty paint stores in town say they can't get any of it, and
wouldn't
order any even if I paid up front for it because I might change my mind
after it arrived, and then they'd be stuck with something they couldn't
sell.
Fayetteville will never be accused of being a mecca of fine woodworking.
There's a store in Spring Lake that bills itself as having "woodworking
supplies," but when you go up there it's just jam packed with pukey duck
with hearts production supplies and unbelievable amounts of milk paint--
great if you're trying to make "country decor" stuff for people who live
in
apartments in the middle of a 100,000-population city so that their
kitchens
will have that perfect rustic aura while the traffic whizzes past at
15MPH over
the speed limit.
A crafts store SWMBO likes to go to because they have every color
of yarn in the world has precut clock faces, made from pine and
labeled "Walnut Hill"--obviously the Walnut trees are still on the hill,
for
everything they sell is made from pine; huge boxes of Shaker pegs
at a decent price if you don't mind doing a little sanding; clock
movements which they buy from Woodcraft and mark up double;
and a quite extensive assortment of turned wooden eggs.
But no Shellac.
Lots of lumberyards, but the finishing supplies assortment at those
consists of interior semigloss latex and exterior semigloss latex. In
your choice of 7000 fashion pastels, including over 300 whites.
Off to the catalogs. Woodcraft doesn't have any. McFeely's
doesn't have any. Tool Crib of the North doesn't have finishes
at all. That's all the catalogs I've got.
You folks use Shellac by the ton. Where can I find some good
mail-order orange Shellac flakes? I've got a whole drum of pure
pressroom isopropyl alcohol; that will take care of the getting-
it-into-liquid problem.
TIA.
--jmowreader
From: Jody [jodyc at earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 5:53 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Jim Mowreader wrote:
> Home Depot of Fayetteville, NC, has never heard of Shellac. (No kidding.
> I asked the manager of the paint department if they had any Shellac--
> "What's that?")
>
> You folks use Shellac by the ton. Where can I find some good
> mail-order orange Shellac flakes? I've got a whole drum of pure
> pressroom isopropyl alcohol; that will take care of the getting-
> it-into-liquid problem.
>
> TIA.
>
> --jmowreader
I would not even try your local lumber yards. Most don't have it and the ones
that do, it has most likely gone bad on the shelf. My local HD or Lowe's
(Beaumont, TX), one or the other had it in liquid. Made by Parker, but the
can looked old and dented so it was most likely over a year old. With shellac
the only way to go is with flakes. You could try www.woodcrafterssupply.com I
have never used them but I know they have it. Mix only what your gonna use,
it does not sit on the shelf very long and have fun with it.
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 6:33 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Jim,
woodworker's Supply will send you or anyone a free catalog. Call them at
1-800-645-9292. They have Shellac products. J.E.. Moser ( I believe they own
the company) Premium Grade in seedlac, buttonlac, garnetlac, orange shellac and
super blonde in 1 lb. containers. Price runs from $11.95 for seedlac to $16.95
for super blonde. I would imagine that Constantine's also has a supply. WWS is
still working on their website, but Constantine's is:
http://www.constantines.com/ and they also offer a free catalog. There are
likely many more suppliers who could help you out.
Chuck
Obligatory Biscuit Joiner post:
WWS has the DeWalt DW682 for $159.00 (New w/steel case)
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 7:23 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Many of the catalog outfits carry it. Woodcraft and Liberon are two
that come to mind. Both have web pages.
Ken Martin
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 6:41 PM
To: Jody
Cc: Jim Mowreader; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Jim,
I can't go along much with what Jody states. The Bulleye brand by
Zinnser or is it Zissner brand now-a-days has a hard to believe--3 year
shelf life! Parks, is a brand that HD pretty much phased out of, and
Jody is right that is was most likely outdated. Of course the bigger
stores in larger cities will be turning over the product faster. Shellac
should be available at most factory branch Paint stores, especially the
commercial branch's.
Shellac is very easy to tell if it's gone bad. Simply smear some on a
surface and it should dry in a short while and not be tacky. A "bad" can
of it, will still be tacky the next morning. Any "thingees" floating
around in the can is another tell-tale sign. The color is also often
indicative. But until you've had some experience with it, you won't be
able to tell one color from another. We'll just have to let that pass
for a while.
I don't think that flakes are the only way to go. A lot has to do with
what you are doing. There's no doubt that flakes make up the finest
quality shellac. But that quality shellac is often not needed. Overkill,
if you prefer. I have a c ouple of utility items around the shop that
have been shellacked. Cans were just fine. For French Polishing, it's
flakes.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 8:12 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Garrett Wade has it (800)221-2942
John
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 6:31 AM
To: Jim Mowreader; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
I used Shellac for the first time this past summer, and I love it. It's
relatively easy to mix up and apply, and it looks great.
As for where to get it, let me point you to William-Alden. You should get
their catalog in any case. Check out their web site at
http://www.williamalden.com/. It only has a small fraction of what's
available in their catalog, but you can order a catalog from the web site.
Two other things:
1. If you're confused about what type to get, start with Orange Shellac.
It's in the middle color-wise, and looks great on medium to dark woods like
mission colored oak.
2. Assuming you get flakes (instead of premixed) you'll also need some
alcohol to mix it in. William-Alden sells that too. The flakes can be mixed
up in whatever cut you want, and you only need to mix up as much as you're
going to use.
When you get confused about what cut of shellac to use ask back here.
Daniel
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 11:37 AM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: Jim Mowreader; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Regarding sourcing the alcolhol with which to mix shellac flakes. There
are all kinds and grades of alcohol but I have had good success with
alcohol sold as methyl hydrate, often labelled as gas line anti-freeze.
It's cheap and readily available at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Canadian Tire,
etc.
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 1:51 PM
To: Ken Martin; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
I just bought a can from Wal-Mart (not flakes) and a can of Shellac thinner
today.
geo
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 6:00 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Mike Bridges sends:
>Shellac Thinner?What did that say on the can for ingredients?
>Mike Bridges
>http://www.mikescustomww.com
Shouldn't be anything but alcohol. But you never know with those
people.
BTW, I said I had some industrial isopropanol (as close to 100% strength
as is possible to get considering I keep the drum in an unheated shed);
is that suitable for dissolving Shellac or are there better alcohols? TIA
--jmowreader
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 9:55 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Jim, you're not that far from Garner, why not drive up here some day off and
stop by Lowes or Home Depot here, both carry shellac in orange, blonde, and
spray. Lowes is at the junction of 70 and 401, H.D. is about 1/2 mile south
of Lowes on 70.
Rick McQuay
--
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 4:07 AM
To: Mike Bridges
Cc: Ken Martin; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Just plain Denatured Alcohol. There is a prefix S-L-X, whatever that means.
geo
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 5:06 AM
To: George Jones
Cc: Ken Martin; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Exactly.I had just never heard it actually called Shellac Thinnner
before.Probably paid a premium price for that.I usually get denatured
alcohol at the hardware store or Sherwinn Williams.Sherwinn Williams
sells the alcohol and premixed shellac but no flake.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
George Jones wrote:
>
> Just plain Denatured Alcohol. There is a prefix S-L-X, whatever that means.
>
> geo
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 2:52 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Jim Mowreader wrote:
> You folks use Shellac by the ton. Where can I find some good
> mail-order orange Shellac flakes? I've got a whole drum of pure
> pressroom isopropyl alcohol; that will take care of the getting-
> it-into-liquid problem.
>
Hey All,
Ok, keep in mind that I've not ventured into the rhealm of shellac yet but am
currently gearing up... I'm reading and getting acquainted with the
process.. (I'm also currently in "finishing phobea therapy", so that should
help also).... but I didn't think it was as good to use isopropyl alcohol
with shellac flakes since it is mostly water. I though you were supposed to
use denatured alcohol (ethyl alcohol which is really just Everclear with
poison) in order to get a good cut and finishing product.
Maybe pressroom isopropyl is something different than what I've seen.
Just curious.
: )
Sharon
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 8:05 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
To quote Mr. Flexner's book:
"Myth: Some alcohols dissolve shellac better than others. Fact: All the
lower (more volatile) alcohols - methyl, ethl, and propyl - dissolve shellac
totally. you can't do any better than that. The difference between these
three alcohols is their evaporation rate. Methyl evaporates the fastest,
propyl the slowest."
John
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 9:35 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Shellac--Where To Buy?
Sharon Bannister sends:
>Maybe pressroom isopropyl is something different than what I've seen.
>Just curious.
The normal isopropyl you buy at the drugstore is called "rubbing alcohol"
and it's 70 percent isopropyl and 30 percent water. The isopropyl we use
in printing is 100 percent isopropyl (or at least as close as you can get
a
hygroscopic chemical--we think it's about 97 percent but it changes a
lot--alcohol is like brake fluid; it absorbs moisture from the air)
because
we need to know the concentrations of the different chemicals in the
"fountain solution" in the press--how much gum arabic, how much
alcohol, etc.
I agree that mixing rubbing alcohol with anything that water would screw
up, like shellac, would be very bad news.
--jmowreader
From: Randy Brewer [master at firstnethou.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:25 AM
To: TheOak
Subject: Shellawax Cream
While doing a little throne reading last night i came across a product named
Shellawax Cream in my new Hartville catalog. The writeup says that it
"fuses white shellac and selected fine waxes". They are marketing it as a
friction finish. The cost seems on the
high side $24.95 for 300ml.
Has anyone out there every used this?
Randy Brewer
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:27 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Shellawax Cream
I have not used it but there is an FAQ on the company's Web page.
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/cream.html
They show the 300 ml container for $18.50 AUS. and instructions to
deduct 35% for U.S. orders. Didn't investigate shipping charges or
lead times so it may or may not even out to your liking.
http://users.netcon.net.au/ubeaut/price.html
How about a follow up post letting us know if it worked out?
Keith Bohn
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; b2d at execpc.com
Subject: Re: Shipping Container
Keith Bohn inquired:
>I just gotta ask. Would a shipping container match your house
>design-wise? I'm just looking out for the neighbors and their
>expected reaction.
Well Keith, good question.
While I certainly would be the first kid on my block to have one, my
homeowners association would have a field day with that one! One time, I
got home late from the sawmill with a 16' trailer of freshly cut logs. Too
late to take them to the country for stacking, so I asked my neighbor, with
his circular driveway, if I could park there overnight. No problem, he
said, so I did. Next day after work, I headed to the country and that was
that.
About a week later, my neighbor got a letter from the deed restriction
committee, chewing him out and threatening legal action if he did not remove
that "trailer." I got a good laugh out of it, and now he can laugh about
it too. Won't do that again.
Actually, the "country" I'm referring to is about 60 miles north from
Houston, small town called Montgomery, where a (real good) buddy let's me
store my lumber/excess tools, trailer, etc. So, the container would be up
there. I sent a note to him yesterday about this whole possibility. No
reply yet. There is probably somewhere on the 200 acres I could put it
where it would only be unsightly to the cows. I do hate the look of these.
Once set though, I guess I could throw some T1-11 siding up around it and
slap some molding and paint on it. Maybe even a hip roof...
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas. (I oughtta just pull up and move to the
country - spread out a little - build that 2560 square foot shop I've got
all planned out - buy that portable bandmill I've been drooling over - set
up those solar kilns once and for all - but then I wake up and remember
there's that day job that subsidizes all my hobbies...)
From: RAKENEL at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Shipping Contaner
Todd.
If your talking about the steel ones. I helped set a few.
Very heavy, need some big equip unless truck can unload where you want
it.
Here in central NY they sweat a lot, not good for drying lumber.
Would need fan at the very least.
My experance only.
Budd in Syracuse
From: Richard Emmel [remmel at flash.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 9:26 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: shopvac
Friends,
The new Sears Craftsman 6.25 hp, 16 gal. vacs is asking me to buy it for
$116.99 on Dec 11. Some day I would like to install a dust system but until
then I want to replace the broom and dustpan. Good idea or bad? I remember
the last thread on Vac said the Sears was good but loud and the price at the
time was competitive. I'm anxious to read your advise.
From: Paul W. Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 1:17 AM
To: Richard Emmel
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: shopvac
Hi Rich,
I have one and it is ok. I put their muffler on it and it seems to
reduce the noise somewhat. I always wear ear protection when I have a
machine and the vac running anyway. I would suggest that you ask for a
demo at the store. I think you'll agree that it is just as loud as the
household vacuum. I leave the room when that thing is running.
As for picking up sawdust, it's tops.
Regards,
--
Paul W. Abelquist
78 Rosewood Road
Rocky Point, NY 11778
Tel.: 516. 821. 5574
Fax: 516. 821. 3392
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:51 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: shopvac
>I remember the last thread on Vac said the Sears was good but
>loud and the price at the time was competitive. I'm anxious to read
>your advise.
My advice on the Searz vac has not changed since the last thread.
Keith Bohn
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 8:08 AM
To: Richard Emmel; Woodworking
Subject: Re: shopvac
I still like my big Craftsman SV. Yea, it's loud, but boy does it suck! It
will just about pick up anything that will fit in its hose. No dustpan
needed here.
It has enough velocity that it also works well for cleaning out nooks and
crannies in your equipment even though you can't quite get the end of the
nozzle in close.
Take out the filter and it will clean up water spills in no time, too.
I've had mine for about 3 years with no problem.
Mack Neff
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Emmel <remmel at flash.net>
To: Woodworking <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 11:21 PM
Subject: shopvac
>Friends,
>
>The new Sears Craftsman 6.25 hp, 16 gal. vacs is asking me to buy it for
>$116.99 on Dec 11. Some day I would like to install a dust system but until
>then I want to replace the broom and dustpan. Good idea or bad? I remember
>the last thread on Vac said the Sears was good but loud and the price at
the
>time was competitive. I'm anxious to read your advise.
>
>
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 7:07 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Silicone Caulk Update
Hi folks,
Last year I started a thread when a "new" cartridge of GE silicone caulk
failed to set up. In fact, it turned out to be several years old. A
list member who worked for GE Plastics volunteered the information that
silicone adhesives have a shelf life of 1-2 years. That was not
mentioned on the package, and even if I knew that, the date code was
obscure and impossible to read without knowing the key. At the time, I
felt badly used by both GE and the retailer. Now I'm a little older and
wiser.
I bought a cartridge of GE Silicone II today and was pleasantly
surprised. Very clearly marked on the package was a notation "Use
before 09/00". That is just great for the consumer, but I'm sure a lot
of retailers with slow turnover won't like it. Bravo, GE. I've gained
new respect for you. Note that shelf life is also a consideration with
some woodworking glues, and the polyurethane glues are among the worst
with shelf life as short as 6 months. Who knows how long it has been
sitting on the shelf before you bought it? This is also relevant to the
recent shellac discussion when buying a pre-mixed product. Wouldn't it
be great if all perishable products were clearly marked with "Use by
xx/xx"? Regards,
Gerald
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [steveb at spruce.sentrol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:05 AM
To: wood working
Subject: RE: Sleigh plans
Gary,
http://www.woodmagazine.com/download/media/sleigh.pdf
is a smaller sleigh plan that you could probably enlarge quite easily.
-Steve
> From: Gary Cavener [mailto:gcavener at teleport.com]
>
> wood. Have any of you seen plans for a sleigh that is
> basically just an
> ornamental, fairly big box?
>
> Gary Cavener
From: Paul Abelquist [PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:06 AM
To: steveb at spruce.sentrol.com
Cc: wood working
Subject: Re: Sleigh plans
Hi Steve,
I just finished building five of these in cherry. What a nice project! I
bought the pre-cut parts from Heritage, and I must say, it was a
pleasure just cutting to shape and doing assembly. The runners were fun
to make since it required building a caul and laminating five strips and
then cutting them down the center to make two. The real challenge was
the actual assembly of the body. I bought an octopus and trained it to
hold the four sides at an angle, while I joined the edges. Seriously, it
is a challenge; but since I'm about to build five more, I made an
assembly fixture of aluminum with two movable end blocks "chamfered" ( a
machined angle) to the correct angle to position the ends and hold the
sides together for gluing and nailing. This allowed assembly of all five
in less than 2 hours.
All in all, the five sleighs came out very nice and are ready for
filling.
--
Paul W. Abelquist
78 Rosewood Road
Rocky Point, NY 11778
Tel.: 516. 821. 5574
Fax: 516. 821. 3392
E-Mail: PaulAbelquist at worldnet.att.net
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 2:05 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: sliding mitre sled
Hey gang,
First off thanks for the help on getting to the URL for
the sanding box.
Now for a wee bit of a challenge. I am looking for plans to make a
sliding miter sled. Very similar to a sliding cut off sled, only with
the capability of doing accurate miters.
Thanks,
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:48 AM
To: Brian Molinari; Dave Tinley
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: sliding mitre sled
Wood Mag Dec 1996 (issue 93) (Sliding Tablesaw Jig) and ShopNotes
issue 27 (Sliding Cutoff Table) both have these, but there designs
are very different.
I think that if you go to their web sites you will find the plans
and/or kits.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:35 AM
To: Dave Tinley
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: sliding mitre sled
The ShopNotes desgin does include a pivoting fence (0-45+ deg, I
don't want to look it up) in addition to the fixed fence.
The Wood design has a set of 4 tracks that will position hold downs
and clamps at ANY angle and it can be used for a taper jig. If you
get the kit (expensive) it comes with a laser engraved angle scale
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 6:41 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: sliding mitre sled
>Now for a wee bit of a challenge. I am looking for plans to make a
>sliding miter sled. Very similar to a sliding cut off sled, only with
>the capability of doing accurate miters.
Start off with your basic picture.
http://www.memes.com/~baywood/cc32mm/tools/sled.html
Scootch down and pick up some plans and hardware.
http://www.augusthome.com/Plans/cutoff.htm
Refine it a bit and add some store bought runners.
http://highland-hardware.com/catalog/saw3.html
Go totally nuts and add a laser engraved angle scale.
http://woodmagazine.com/compstor/jigs/tsawjig.html
If you were of a mind to go way off the beam you could add some
extruded aluminum and make a adjustable fence for stop blocks and
such.
http://frame-world.com/home.htm
http://www.8020.net/
I'm currently mulling over a set up using the extrusions and UHMW
runners to make up a sliding table ala Delta. Not sure it's worth the
effort over a sled but it's fun to think about.
Mark Duginske, the tool tune up writer, has a line of extrusions that
can be easily adapted to an adjustable sled.
Mark Duginske
Woodworking FasTTrack, Inc.
W5823 School Av.
Merrill, WI 54452
1-888-327-7725
mduginske at aol.com
Keith Bohn
From: gdmorgan [gdmorgan at vision.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 11:35 AM
To: Brian Molinari
Cc: Dave Tinley; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: sliding mitre sled
Brian,
saw Dave's question and emailed him off list as follows:-
"there are a couple of plans at http://www.sky.net/~lorenh/
Some of the plans on the site do not open in Deltacad, the CAD program
linked from there, but Loren is realy helpfull and if you advise which
plan failed will check them out and re format to work. I had trouble
with a couple and told Loren, these were reformatted, checked for
compliance with
DetltaCAD and emailed to me. All in all a worthwhile site."
There is also a plan in Roger W. Cliffe's "Table Saw Techniques".
Geoff.
--
Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 8:03 AM
To: email
Subject: sliding table
anyone out there witht he Delta sliding table? i am interested in a
slider for my shop at home. Any input?
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 4:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: sliding table
>anyone out there witht he Delta sliding table? i am interested in a
>slider for my shop at home. Any input?
I can only contribute what I saw at the IWF when I did a fly-by of the
Delta booth. I found the action coarse and a bit hard to push. Later
I went by the Excalibur booth and tried theirs and it was infinitely
better. I suppose one could walk away from this comparison making
excuses that the Delta wasn't set up correctly but I for one don't buy
that argument. It was set up by Delta's own people at the largest
show in the world highlighting machinery where they are trying their
hardest to put their best foot forward.
http://www.woodworktools.com/slidetable.htm
You might also consider a DejaNews search on the subject.
Keith Bohn
From: Larry Mamlet [mamlet at dmv.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 3:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
Our new JET lathe has a minimum speed of about 550 rpm, using a
variable-ratio belt system. It seemed a good idea to use a router-
speed controller (one member of this list suggested it; I carelessly lost
the email and his/her name and can't say thanks) to slow the lathe down
further for some projects.
Today the controller arrived and in the small print on the box there is a
warning
not to use the device with a capacitor-start motor. I assume that the 3/4
hp single-
phase 110v motor is indeed a capacitor-start motor.
Does anyone know if the router-controller can be used with this lathe?
What hap-
pens if the controller is used with the capacitor-started motor? Would it
be well to
bypass the device until the motor reaches speed?
Any help welcome.
Larry Mamlet
mamlet at dmv.com
From: Martin A. Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 3:44 PM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
Don't do it. The router controllers are designed for motors with brushes.
If you're lucky, you'll just burn out the controller...make up a jackshaft
for your lathe to step down the speed...
Marty
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 2:08 AM
To: Larry Mamlet
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
Larry
Look at this message on Badger Pond. The guy rigged a router jig to
take off the rough edges of a bowl before turning.
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/ptools2.cgi?read=28163
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 7:46 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Larry Mamlet; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:25:28 -0500, Donald Weisman wrote:
>Bill,
>I couldn't easily find "this" message at their site, but the idea of
>making a jig and setting up a router for only one or two bowls of the
>identical size seems a bit proposterus to me. That is, to do so much
>preparation and so little wood removal. The best that could be done
>would be with several passes with a 3/4" roundover bit and then still
>having somewhat of a square, or however the jig is set up for a straight
>bit which might or could remove more wood.
Don
I was wonder if this would show the message, because of the way that
they do the threading. For anyone interested do a search of current
messages for "bowl". It is at the start of a thread.
The jig is universal and will work with any size. It is basically a
frame that supports the router about the lathe. It has a slot to
allow the router to slide back and forth. As you rotate the blank by
hand it will level out a strip. Then slide the router over and cut
the next strip.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 3:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
Don't miss the response by the author below the pictures. It has more
pictures and details showing the router in use. Looks like it would be a
useful tool that would be quick and easy to use.
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/ptools2.cgi?read=28408
From: Mike Bridges [locust1 at ccipost.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 3:49 PM
To: Horstman, B. Dean
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
"Horstman, B. Dean" wrote:
>
> Don't miss the response by the author below the pictures. It has more
> pictures and details showing the router in use. Looks like it would be a
> useful tool that would be quick and easy to use.
>
> http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/ptools2.cgi?read=28408
>
Dean,
I have looked at the pictures,and although I'm sure it will work, I
cannot figure out how this would be quicker that roughing out on a
band saw.This jig will also only work on the inboard side of the
lathe.If turning something that will fit on the inboard side of the
lathe you should have no problem roughing out with a gouge and a slow
lathe speed.Just my thoughts on the jig overall.I see no real reason
for it.How many passes back and forth with the router will it take to
round the blank?Or just take the corners off?
Mike Bridges
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:54 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Slowing a lathe with router-controller? ? ?
>Just my thoughts on the jig overall.I see no real reason
>for it.
The only reason I could see for it, was that the individual was using it on
glued-up segmented sections for bowls. Turning on the exterior of the bowl,
with the numerous extended corners could offer the opportunity for grabs
that could possibly rip out pieces along the grain. This wouldn't be a
problem on the interior of the bowl because the corners are fully supported
by each other, the external corners are not. Just a thought on an empty
stomach.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:14 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat
To all those who tried to be of assistance in helping me to understand
that a collector motor will increase it's RPM and use less AMPs if the
air intake is reduced.
I was not convinced despite your efforts. Gary C. said "trust me"...I
should have. I spoke to Technical assistance at Amitek, a large Vacuum
motor mfr. @330/677-3300 (press zero for operator), and the technician
confirmed that:
1. Yes, the motor speed will increase when the air intake is reduced.
2. Yes, the AMPs and Watts will decrease when the air intake is reduced.
3. Yes, the motor will overheat and burn itself out.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 2:59 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat
Don:
OK, but how does the motor overheat if the power consumption goes
down? Does not seem to meet the common sense test.
Ken Martin
Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> To all those who tried to be of assistance in helping me to understand
> that a collector motor will increase it's RPM and use less AMPs if the
> air intake is reduced.
>
> I was not convinced despite your efforts. Gary C. said "trust me"...I
> should have. I spoke to Technical assistance at Amitek, a large Vacuum
> motor mfr. @330/677-3300 (press zero for operator), and the technician
> confirmed that:
> 1. Yes, the motor speed will increase when the air intake is reduced.
> 2. Yes, the AMPs and Watts will decrease when the air intake is reduced.
> 3. Yes, the motor will overheat and burn itself out.
> --
> Don Weisman
> Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 12:14 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; bobham
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Don, Bob, and all
Maybe we can end this thread before we become nauseated. Two points to
consider:
1. A fan working in a vacuum deals with no air resistance.
2. I just ran out to my shop and totally blocked the hose on my Shop Vac,
and the motor sped up substantially.
Evidently, if you don't give it any air, it doesn't have to do any work. Is
this too simple?
Feeling a tiny bit nauseated,
Gary Cavener
to reply to me, fix my address.
snip
bobham wrote:
>
> Hi, Don:
> The work a dust collector blower does is moving air. If the inlet
is
> closed so that no air can get in, then no air can be moved and the
> blower is not doing any work. This is for a squirrel cage type of
> blower. A vacuum uses a different type of blower, and I am not sure
> that the same holds true for them.
>
> Bob Hamilton
Hi Bob, how ya doin?
I know that about the moving of the air. Whether it's a blower or a
sucker, make-up air to a unit must be available or it won't blow or suck
(I assume there's plenty of make up air at the Oval office) regardless
of the type fan used.
My question was though, RE: George Jones, how could partially closing an
air passage flow-thru cause a motor current draw reduction when the
motor would work harder?
XXXXXX The motor IS NOT working harder.
I can tell...:-), this is going to be a long thread at nausea.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:24 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Gary Cavener wrote:
>
> Don, Bob, and all
>
> Maybe we can end this thread before we become nauseated. Two points to
> consider:
>
> 1. A fan working in a vacuum deals with no air resistance.
>
> 2. I just ran out to my shop and totally blocked the hose on my Shop Vac,
> and the motor sped up substantially.
>
> Evidently, if you don't give it any air, it doesn't have to do any work. Is
> this too simple?
>
> Feeling a tiny bit nauseated,
>
> Gary Cavener
>
Gary,
I am already!
This is nuts! Your vacuum cleaner didn't speed up. The motor whine
increased. It increased because you cut off it's inlet air supply and it
is straining. Do it again and if you have a flexible hose, the hose
length will shorten a little. It's shortening because the motor is
trying to suck the air from the hose thereby creating a vacuum within
the hose. The motor is working harder, not easier. If the motors works
harder (works at a load), it draws more amps. and all of my motors slow
down in that situation--regardless of the type.
Your router then, it speeds up when working against a load? Mine
doesn't...it slows down. Forcing my tablesaw motor, it slows down.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
> bobham wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Don:
> > The work a dust collector blower does is moving air. If the inlet
> is
> > closed so that no air can get in, then no air can be moved and the
> > blower is not doing any work. This is for a squirrel cage type of
> > blower. A vacuum uses a different type of blower, and I am not sure
> > that the same holds true for them.
> >
> > Bob Hamilton
> Hi Bob, how ya doin?
> I know that about the moving of the air. Whether it's a blower or a
> sucker, make-up air to a unit must be available or it won't blow or suck
> (I assume there's plenty of make up air at the Oval office) regardless
> of the type fan used.
>
> My question was though, RE: George Jones, how could partially closing an
> air passage flow-thru cause a motor current draw reduction when the
> motor would work harder?
>
> XXXXXX The motor IS NOT working harder.
>
> I can tell...:-), this is going to be a long thread at nausea.
> --
> Don Weisman
> Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Stephen Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:54 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
data collection to the mix.
I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25 "peak"
HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
Need I say more?
OK, I will....
1.25HP = 932W. With a 120V source, this means we're pulling 7.77A at
"peak". The actual power I got out of it with the hose connected = 5.8A x
120V = 696W = 0.93HP.
Something else to consider: With the hose blocked off, the power went down
to 0.71HP, which explains why, when a leaf is sucked into the hose, it
doesn't get very far.
For all you electrical guys out there: You can go ahead and put the power
factor correction into my calculations, etc, etc, but I was just trying to
keep it simple.
At 12:14 PM 11/1/98 -0800, Gary Cavener wrote:
>Don, Bob, and all
>
>Maybe we can end this thread before we become nauseated. Two points to
>consider:
>
>1. A fan working in a vacuum deals with no air resistance.
>
>2. I just ran out to my shop and totally blocked the hose on my Shop Vac,
>and the motor sped up substantially.
>
>
>Evidently, if you don't give it any air, it doesn't have to do any work. Is
>this too simple?
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:21 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
> I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
> folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25 "peak"
> HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
>
> With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
> connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
> front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
>
> Need I say more?
No Steve, that says it all! Thanks for proving my experiences. My nausea
has left.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 6:12 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
Steve, are you scratching your head over Don's response to your DMM
test? You just blew him out of the water, and his response says that
you proved his point. I had a similar experience with him a couple of
months ago on the square drive screw thread, did some tests to prove
that they are tapered, he called me a liar, and now we are former
friends. I didn't want to fan the flames on the list by pointing out
the inconsistancies in his responses in public. BTW, I'm an engineer
too. Regards,
Gerald
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 6:04 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Steve,
I guess you did need to say more. When a circuit is overloaded severely,
what is it that burns up breakers and wiring? Isn't it because the load has
demanded *more* current. You load your table saw and it demands more amps,
right? You load your shop vac and it requires less amps? I must be dense.
I'm still not getting it. Is it dumb to think that wood and air have
different properties and requirements?
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:21 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
> I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
> folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25
"peak"
> HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
>
> With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
> connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
> front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
>
> Need I say more?
No Steve, that says it all! Thanks for proving my experiences. My nausea
has left.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:54 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Don,
Maybe we need to step aside, and perhaps someone who actually knows could
give us an answer?
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:24 PM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Gary Cavener wrote:
>
> Don, Bob, and all
>
> Maybe we can end this thread before we become nauseated. Two points to
> consider:
>
> 1. A fan working in a vacuum deals with no air resistance.
>
> 2. I just ran out to my shop and totally blocked the hose on my Shop Vac,
> and the motor sped up substantially.
>
> Evidently, if you don't give it any air, it doesn't have to do any work.
Is
> this too simple?
>
> Feeling a tiny bit nauseated,
>
> Gary Cavener
>
Gary,
I am already!
This is nuts! Your vacuum cleaner didn't speed up. The motor whine
increased. It increased because you cut off it's inlet air supply and it
is straining. Do it again and if you have a flexible hose, the hose
length will shorten a little. It's shortening because the motor is
trying to suck the air from the hose thereby creating a vacuum within
the hose. The motor is working harder, not easier. If the motors works
harder (works at a load), it draws more amps. and all of my motors slow
down in that situation--regardless of the type.
Your router then, it speeds up when working against a load? Mine
doesn't...it slows down. Forcing my tablesaw motor, it slows down.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
> bobham wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Don:
> > The work a dust collector blower does is moving air. If the
inlet
> is
> > closed so that no air can get in, then no air can be moved and the
> > blower is not doing any work. This is for a squirrel cage type of
> > blower. A vacuum uses a different type of blower, and I am not sure
> > that the same holds true for them.
> >
> > Bob Hamilton
> Hi Bob, how ya doin?
> I know that about the moving of the air. Whether it's a blower or a
> sucker, make-up air to a unit must be available or it won't blow or suck
> (I assume there's plenty of make up air at the Oval office) regardless
> of the type fan used.
>
> My question was though, RE: George Jones, how could partially closing an
> air passage flow-thru cause a motor current draw reduction when the
> motor would work harder?
>
> XXXXXX The motor IS NOT working harder.
>
> I can tell...:-), this is going to be a long thread at nausea.
> --
> Don Weisman
> Abacus Furniture Repair
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:42 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Hi, Stephen:
What you say confirms something one of the engineers at work told me
one day. We use pneumatic conveying systems to move pelleted material
around through 8" diameter aluminum pipes and he told me the motors on
the blowers pull more load when there is nothing moving through the
pipes but air than when we open a bin and start moving product. I
always thought he was pulling my leg, because it sounded too much like
perpetual motion to me. <g> He did say it with a straight face,
though, and as though he actually believed it. Guess he was right.
Thanks
Bob Hamilton
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 6:04 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Steve,
I guess you did need to say more. When a circuit is overloaded severely,
what is it that burns up breakers and wiring? Isn't it because the load has
demanded *more* current. You load your table saw and it demands more amps,
right? You load your shop vac and it requires less amps? I must be dense.
I'm still not getting it. Is it dumb to think that wood and air have
different properties and requirements?
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:21 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
> I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
> folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25
"peak"
> HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
>
> With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
> connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
> front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
>
> Need I say more?
No Steve, that says it all! Thanks for proving my experiences. My nausea
has left.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 6:48 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
Steve, thanks for putting some numbers into the discussion. As an
engineer, they are about what I would expect to see. When the motor is
deprived of air, it does less work, so the current draw is lower.
However, these are steady state conditions. As a consumer, I still have
a nagging question. Sears and others put outrageous "peak" HP ratings
on their vacuums. When is "peak" HP measured? I always assumed that it
was just as you shoved the end of the hose into a bucket of water. I've
never tried that with my vacuums, but it is similar to blocking the
inlet with your hand. Maybe the "peak" is measured just as you lift the
hose out of the bucket of water?
Another tool that works on air and has outrageous "peak" HP ratings is a
compressor. Any compressor with a tank has a fairly constant load, so I
have no idea how they arrive at their ratings. I wonder if both the
vacuums and compressors measure the peak start-up current drain to get
their advertised ratings? My compressor is old and takes a 220 volt
line to run the 2 HP motor. However, the CFM at 40 and 90 psi beats all
of the "5" HP modern compressors that run on 110 volts. Still
scratching my head.
Gerald
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
> I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
> folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25 "peak"
> HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
>
> With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
> connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
> front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:21 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> OK, before this goes too much farther, let's put add some engineering and
> data collection to the mix.
>
> I dug out my trusty DMM (that's digital multimeter for you non-electrical
> folks) and connected the ammeter to my little shop vac - claims 1.25 "peak"
> HP. (Didn't want to blow the meter with my big one).
>
> With no hose connected at all, it pulled 6.25 Amps. With the hose
> connected, the current consumption went down to 5.8 Amps. With my hand in
> front of the hose nozzle, the current went down to 4.4 Amps.
>
> Need I say more?
No Steve, that says it all! Thanks for proving my experiences. My nausea
has left.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bill Neely [billn at dnc.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:49 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: gcavener at teleport.com; bobham; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> Gary Cavener wrote:
> >
> > Don, Bob, and all
> >
> > Maybe we can end this thread before we become nauseated. Two points to
> > consider:
> >
> > 1. A fan working in a vacuum deals with no air resistance.
> >
> > 2. I just ran out to my shop and totally blocked the hose on my Shop Vac,
> > and the motor sped up substantially.
> >
> > Evidently, if you don't give it any air, it doesn't have to do any work. Is
> > this too simple?
> >
> > Feeling a tiny bit nauseated,
> >
> > Gary Cavener
> >
> Gary,
Don, I've been an electrician for almost forty years, take my word for
it: if you close off an inlet for a blower it does less work, therefore
less amperes, less power, less load. Cavitation.
Bill
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:51 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
I have it on good authority that the Sears compressors and shop vacuums are
tested for horsepower outside the space shuttle, where they have a near
vacuum. It's like, "I can run really fast when I'm not carrying a load.
Gary Cavener
From: Stephen Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:53 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
At 06:04 PM 11/1/98 -0800, Gary Cavener wrote:
>Steve,
>
>I guess you did need to say more. When a circuit is overloaded severely,
>what is it that burns up breakers and wiring? Isn't it because the load has
>demanded *more* current. You load your table saw and it demands more amps,
>right? You load your shop vac and it requires less amps? I must be dense.
>I'm still not getting it. Is it dumb to think that wood and air have
>different properties and requirements?
>
>Gary Cavener
Gary,
The confusion you have is derived from the idea that the vacuum is under
load when I put my hand in front of the nozzle. Think back to physics. To
do work, you have to have motion, right? I don't remember the equation
right off the top of my head, but I think it was something like Work =
Force x distance, where Force = Mass x Acceleration.
So, when you block off the vac inlet, you have no air motion (i.e. distance
= 0), thus, no work is being done. Yes, you do have the motor running
still, and that takes energy, but not quite as much energy as it takes to
move the air and the motor. This one is hard to swallow, and I had to chew
on it for a while, but you just have to trust the laws of physics.
The reason you hear the increase in the whine of the motor is probably due
to two things: a) The motor is speeding up, and b) the bearings are
really crappy.
BTW: Sorry about the duplicate post on my last reply...
From: Stephen Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:06 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
>
>Another tool that works on air and has outrageous "peak" HP ratings is a
>compressor. Any compressor with a tank has a fairly constant load, so I
>have no idea how they arrive at their ratings. I wonder if both the
>vacuums and compressors measure the peak start-up current drain to get
>their advertised ratings? My compressor is old and takes a 220 volt
>line to run the 2 HP motor. However, the CFM at 40 and 90 psi beats all
>of the "5" HP modern compressors that run on 110 volts. Still
>scratching my head.
>
>Gerald
Gerald,
I have one of those new "5 HP" compressors. When running it on 120V, it
would start up just fine with an empty tank. However, once it got up to
pressure and shut off, then tried to restart, it tripped the 15A breaker
every time. I did the "no-no" and replaced the 15A with a 20A, and it
still tripped. Rewired it for 240V, and no more breaker tripping. I would
say that the compressor might more appropriately be called a 1.5 HP
compressor, if that. (CFM at 40 and 90 psi is 9.2 and 5.7 respectively).
The point I'm trying to make is that the compressor seemed to be drawing
the most current at startup on a full tank. This makes sense due to the
inductive loading of the motor, etc. The main ingredient here was the full
tank, though. Remember the tire pumps of yesteryear? It was always the
hardest to pump when the tire was almost all the way inflated. That's
because you still have airflow going in at the same rate, but it is not
coming out.
Let's add some more fat to the fire here. I'm willing to bet that when you
cover the exhaust for your vac, the current will reach its "peak".
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> Let's add some more fat to the fire here. I'm willing to bet that when you
> cover the exhaust for your vac, the current will reach its "peak".
Sounds like a safe bet. Good for the folks who write ads, but useless
for those of use who want the machines to suck. I wonder how long it
takes to pop the breaker when the motor produces the "peak" HP?
Gerald
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 9:06 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen,
Sorry, but I was trying to be cute. I don't remember much of high school
physics because it was 32 years ago. What I do know is my shop vac speeds
up when you block the intake. I obsess on the logical at times. To me,
when the motor speeds up, it's because the load is less. What made this
idea real to me is the situation where the vacuum is under less of a load
because it has less product to move. I have a bunch of common situations
running through my head. It is not possible that a fan motor dealing with
air movement would run slower and draw more current when it has less work to
do. It is easier to drill thru balsa than stinkwood because balsa is less
dense. A vacuum is less dense than the 14 psi(?) density of our atmosphere.
For Don, my router runs faster when I work cedar than when I work ebony.
Less density= less speed and higher current draw.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Bigelow [mailto:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:53 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
At 06:04 PM 11/1/98 -0800, Gary Cavener wrote:
>Steve,
>
>I guess you did need to say more. When a circuit is overloaded severely,
>what is it that burns up breakers and wiring? Isn't it because the load
has
>demanded *more* current. You load your table saw and it demands more amps,
>right? You load your shop vac and it requires less amps? I must be dense.
>I'm still not getting it. Is it dumb to think that wood and air have
>different properties and requirements?
>
>Gary Cavener
Gary,
The confusion you have is derived from the idea that the vacuum is under
load when I put my hand in front of the nozzle. Think back to physics. To
do work, you have to have motion, right? I don't remember the equation
right off the top of my head, but I think it was something like Work =
Force x distance, where Force = Mass x Acceleration.
So, when you block off the vac inlet, you have no air motion (i.e. distance
= 0), thus, no work is being done. Yes, you do have the motor running
still, and that takes energy, but not quite as much energy as it takes to
move the air and the motor. This one is hard to swallow, and I had to chew
on it for a while, but you just have to trust the laws of physics.
The reason you hear the increase in the whine of the motor is probably due
to two things: a) The motor is speeding up, and b) the bearings are
really crappy.
BTW: Sorry about the duplicate post on my last reply...
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 9:13 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow; gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Gerald,
I think you must have figured out the answer to the puzzle. The work is
done on the *out* side of the air pump. Increase the resistance or pressure
on the outside of the pump and you increase the demand and the need for
power (or current draw). Increase the pressure on the intake side of the
pump and you decrease the demand for power. Put your hand over the intake
and eliminate most of the pressure on the intake side and the motor spins
like there's no tomorrow, because there is less work to do.
Thanks,
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Bigelow [mailto:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:06 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
>
>Another tool that works on air and has outrageous "peak" HP ratings is a
>compressor. Any compressor with a tank has a fairly constant load, so I
>have no idea how they arrive at their ratings. I wonder if both the
>vacuums and compressors measure the peak start-up current drain to get
>their advertised ratings? My compressor is old and takes a 220 volt
>line to run the 2 HP motor. However, the CFM at 40 and 90 psi beats all
>of the "5" HP modern compressors that run on 110 volts. Still
>scratching my head.
>
>Gerald
Gerald,
I have one of those new "5 HP" compressors. When running it on 120V, it
would start up just fine with an empty tank. However, once it got up to
pressure and shut off, then tried to restart, it tripped the 15A breaker
every time. I did the "no-no" and replaced the 15A with a 20A, and it
still tripped. Rewired it for 240V, and no more breaker tripping. I would
say that the compressor might more appropriately be called a 1.5 HP
compressor, if that. (CFM at 40 and 90 psi is 9.2 and 5.7 respectively).
The point I'm trying to make is that the compressor seemed to be drawing
the most current at startup on a full tank. This makes sense due to the
inductive loading of the motor, etc. The main ingredient here was the full
tank, though. Remember the tire pumps of yesteryear? It was always the
hardest to pump when the tire was almost all the way inflated. That's
because you still have airflow going in at the same rate, but it is not
coming out.
Let's add some more fat to the fire here. I'm willing to bet that when you
cover the exhaust for your vac, the current will reach its "peak".
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:16 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Cc: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> >
> >Another tool that works on air and has outrageous "peak" HP ratings is a
> >compressor. Any compressor with a tank has a fairly constant load, so I
> >have no idea how they arrive at their ratings. I wonder if both the
> >vacuums and compressors measure the peak start-up current drain to get
> >their advertised ratings? My compressor is old and takes a 220 volt
> >line to run the 2 HP motor. However, the CFM at 40 and 90 psi beats all
> >of the "5" HP modern compressors that run on 110 volts. Still
> >scratching my head.
> >
> >Gerald
>
> Gerald,
>
> I have one of those new "5 HP" compressors. When running it on 120V, it
> would start up just fine with an empty tank. However, once it got up to
> pressure and shut off, then tried to restart, it tripped the 15A breaker
> every time. I did the "no-no" and replaced the 15A with a 20A, and it
> still tripped. Rewired it for 240V, and no more breaker tripping. I would
> say that the compressor might more appropriately be called a 1.5 HP
> compressor, if that. (CFM at 40 and 90 psi is 9.2 and 5.7 respectively).
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that the compressor seemed to be drawing
> the most current at startup on a full tank. This makes sense due to the
> inductive loading of the motor, etc. The main ingredient here was the full
> tank, though.
Stephen,
All compressors are what is called "hard starting" for starting under a
load. Some motors are designed specifically for that purpose. Whats even
more astonishing is that some compressor mfrs. actually use that type of
motor. :-) Anyhow, air compressors do, or should or used to have
"unloader valves". The unloader valve activates when the compressor
shuts off and bleeds off the air on top of the piston. You can imagine
how if the chamber were full of air, and the motor turned on, how
difficult it would be for the piston to properly stroke. When the
unloader bleeds off some of the air, and that space is vacant of air, it
can run as it was designed.
Is it possible that your compressor did not have such a valve? or
perhaps it was mal-functioning. On the other hand, your switch box may
have been loaded up too much on one side or the other. Switching to 220V
obviously relieved the leg that had just a little too much on it
combined with the hard start.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 2:37 AM
To: Gary Cavener; gcavener at _teleport.com; gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:50:43 -0800, Gary Cavener wrote:
snip
Sears and others put outrageous "peak" HP ratings
>on their vacuums. When is "peak" HP measured? I always assumed that it
>was just as you shoved the end of the hose into a bucket of water. I've
>never tried that with my vacuums, but it is similar to blocking the
>inlet with your hand. Maybe the "peak" is measured just as you lift the
>hose out of the bucket of water?
>
>Another tool that works on air and has outrageous "peak" HP ratings is a
>compressor. Any compressor with a tank has a fairly constant load, so I
>have no idea how they arrive at their ratings. I wonder if both the
>vacuums and compressors measure the peak start-up current drain to get
>their advertised ratings? My compressor is old and takes a 220 volt
>line to run the 2 HP motor. However, the CFM at 40 and 90 psi beats all
>of the "5" HP modern compressors that run on 110 volts. Still
>scratching my head.
snip
You need to read the labels VERY carefully. For things like vacums
and table saw the Sears ads says the MOTOR has peak or developed xx
HP. This is a test of the motor ONLY. It is done under condition that
you could probably never get in normal operation. Also when running
the test you need to wear welding goggles. As this at point at which
the motor will be glowing brightly and flame will be starting to
emerge.
On the air compressors I have never see one that say "compressor with
a 5 HP motor", but rather they say "5HP compressor". If you look at
the motor label it will have spl (special) where the hp rating goes.
I don't have any proof, but I think that it is a rating of the air
power in the tank and the new air that the motor can add for a SHORT
time period until the air press starts to drop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 11:19 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Subject: RE: small gloat (dust collectors now)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Donald Weisman [mailto:abacus at pdq.net]
>> I'm scratching my head now. In the post before, I could've
>sworn you said
>> the motor was working harder with a hand in front of the nozzle.
>
>I did...I think. :-) But I'm saying that now. Yes, it works harder.
>
> However,
>> 4.4 Amps drawn means the motor is not working as hard (vs. 6.25 amps
>> running freely).
>
>That's true. But how could that be? The start up amps for any motor is
>twice or more than its running amps. Shove a piece of wood into a
>running saw blade and the amps increase.
When you shove a piece of wood into a saw blade, you are increasing the work the motor does (i.e. moving the saw blade -- resistance increases). When you put your hand in front of the vac, the work the vac is doing *decreases*. (i.e. not as much air is moving). Those last two sentences are the kicker, and it is really hard to visualize, but trust me, that's how it works.
Try thinking of it this way: Picture the vac as a "system". The input of the system is the vac hose, and the output is of course, the blow hole (for lack of a better term). Any work done by a system constitutes energy moving into or out of the system. Now, if you don't allow any air into the system, then no air can come out of the system, and thus, no work is done by the system.
If that doesn't work for you, picture this: Connect a *strong* blower to the input of your vac. Would you agree that your vac no longer has to do as much work and therefore will draw less current? You should hear the vac motor speed increase. That's because the blower is now doing all the work.
Take this a step further. Connect the blow hole of the vac to the vac hose (suction portion). You will hear a similar motor speed increase as before. This is because the system no longer has an input or an output, and thus no work is being done. The motor still requires energy, but all of this energy is dissipated in heat loss in the system.
>> It has always been my experience that a motor works the
>hardest when it is
>> drawing the most current, thus my confusion in the "proving" of your
>> experiences.
>
>That makes sense to me. But still, how can the vac motor use less amps
>when the hand is preventing air flow? Is it possible that the amps go
>down because it is a universal motor and that's the scheme of
>things? Now
>I'm getting confused.
>
>So you're saying that running a router without cutting uses more
>electricity than when cutting?
>
>Then why does my wide belt sander run at 30 something amps
>until I throw
>a piece of wood in it, and then it could jump to as high as
>45-48 amps?
>>
>> BTW: I am not trying to insult you here,
>
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:27 PM
To: Stephen Bigelow
Subject: Re: small gloat (dust collectors now)
Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> This begs the question: If your shop vac has enough suction for what you
> are doing, yet you know it is a little louder than normal, indicating that
> the filter needs to be cleaned, are you saving both your time and also
> power consumption by not cleaning it?
>
Sounds logical to me, but the only time I clean filters is when the
suction no longer satisfies me. There is always a dramatic difference
after cleaning. It's nice to think that being lazy also saved me money.
> What type of engineer? I'm electrical (if you couldn't already tell).
>
A retired one, and I know from experience that that's the best kind. I
started as an electronics engineer, got a MS in mechanical engineering
and switched over, and ended my career in management. I was a registered
PE until CT raised the fees so high that I dropped the license, and I
managed to pick up 4 patents in the course of my career. I had great
fun for 25 years, suffered through the management years, and found great
fun again in woodworking and gardening after retirement. Regards,
Gerald
From: Andy & Theresa Ball [sarrana at idirect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:27 PM
To: Wood
Subject: small gloat, remember me?
I was the guy who bought the Delta 50-850 dust collector, asked the
question about too much restriction when using hose reducers which
led to the discussion about vacuum cleaners, air compressors, the
Titanic doing burnouts and soon will turn to the space shuttles
toilet flushing system is my guess <grin> My second question was
"how do I know if it is working at optimum performance' [my DC not
the toilet].
Well I used it on a few tools and found that not all the sawdust was
making it to the bag, some was staying in the 4" hose even when I
used it without a reducer. So I phoned Delta explained the problem
and was told that with one inlet blocked [blast gate closed] the top
bag would probably not inflate fully and the fact that some debris
was staying in the hose could be due to the newness and static
electricity. The advice was to try it for a while and get back to
them if the problem persisted. I notice that some dust collection
systems come with a grounding [earthing in UK] kit, question: does
the copper wire run inside or outside the hose and from where to
where e.g. tool to DC frame??? I hope my question does not stir up
too much of a discussion or none of us will have time to make
sawdust.
Andy in Georgetown, Ont, Can.
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 8:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Small Project
Hi all,
I'm having a group of 8 teenage boys over to the shop this week to build a
small project for them to give as Christmas presents to their parents. Last
year we did picture frames and they've also done birdhouses. I'm looking
for ideas for a project that can be built in a couple hours with some prep
work done by me ahead of time and finishing done another time.
Thanks for the help,
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 9:44 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net
Subject: RE: Small Project
Small to medium sized candle boxes would be good. The kind with no
hardware, just a lid that slides in grooves. I've built several of these
and they go together quite quickly. I typically use 1/4" to 3/8" thick
white pine, butt joints with glue and my bostich brad gun. You could do
finger joints or dovetails (how they were traditionally made) but with 8
teeny boppers, you might be better off with the butt joints. The ones I
mass produced 2 Christmas' ago with butt joints are holding up great. I
finished them with ~3 coats of amber shellac, then cut out a three part (aka
3 color) stencil of some holly leaves and jazzed up the lids. Then, at an
antique store, I purchased some miniature homemade candles and included
them, along with some (full sized) homemade cookies. Yum, yum.
The only failure to date was that my niece stepped on a lid when it was
half-way off the box, and the lip of wood that made the groove in the case
side split off. Easy fix.
(I then asked my sister why the Christmas present I slaved over was on the
floor of her closet...)
Todd Burch, Houston Texas. (Gearing up for Christmas myself, made 18
picture frames this weekend. Last year, I made 27 shaker oval boxes. They
were a real hit, but they take a lot of set up work. Once set up though,
you can really kick 'em out.)
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 4:09 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Small Project
tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck. You asked for it. I'd be happy to tell you my method. (And,
> I'll share it with anybody else who cares)
>
>
> Todd Burch, Houston, Texas. (really needing to do some work today)
>
> ----------
>Todd and Chuck,
Sounds like you've got it down pretty good Todd.Made a few my self
several years back.Still have a set of forms around somewhere.
One thing you might want to do different to start Chuck is buy a
piece of gutter and 2 end caps for the trough.I did and it sounds
easier than messing with the stove pipe.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 1:46 PM
To: chuck.steger at erols.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Small Project
Hi Chuck. You asked for it. I'd be happy to tell you my method. (And,
I'll share it with anybody else who cares)
First was the matter of being able to boil water. First thought, kitchen
stove. Second thought, no pans/pots big enough. So off to Home Depot
(like I need an excuse).
To the rigid ductwork section. Got a 3 foot and 6 foot section of 8" round
pipe. Back home, opened it up flat and cut off the factory seaming and end
crimping. Then, folded the sides up, then the ends, then soldered the whole
mess up into about a 4-5 inch high, long open box. From the 3' section I
got a 24" long box and from the 6' section about a 52" long box.
Then, stock preparation. Hello resaw blade. Walnut, Cherry, Red Oak, Ash
and Maple. This step took the longest. First resawing. From 3/4" wood
(S2S), I was able to get 4 resawn pieces that could be planed to remove
"non-perfect" sawing marks. I could saw 5 pieces, but I'd typically lose 2
of those in the planing process. So, I stuck with 4 and that suited me. I
made a sled (stationary) for the planer, so I could get the stock to the
~.060 - .075" required. (Adhere to the proper dimensions here for the size
box you are making, else the wood won't bent like it is supposed to). (You
learn the value of straight grained wood when planing it this thin. With
wavy grain, it will blow up in the planer and shoot back at you.)
Then, I made templates for the fingers. Time spent here pays for itself
later. I made 7 sizes (0 through 6), so had a bunch of templates. You
make one for the band fingers, and one for the lid. Or, you can cheat and
not make one for the lid, and copy from the finger pattern. Your choice.
Longer fingers look better than short, stubby ones.
Stack your like-sized bands together, masking tape them, mark the outer one
from your template for the fingers, then band saw the waste out. Soak the
ends of the wood to soften then up so you can bevel the fingers with a
knife. On the opposite end, opposite side of the band, belt sand it to a
taper, say 3-4 inches long. Taper to nothing. Watch for staining of maple
while soaking.
Then, the molds for making the oval box sides. I had a bunch of 8/4 pine
from a log I had sawn up that had a bunch of blue stain in it, so used that.
I made the molds the same height as the box sides, but this is not really
required. You only need one of these for each size box you will be making.
Then, the formers, or beveled pieces that hold the oval box oval while it
dries. Be sure to line these up to the same vertical plane when you put
these in, or your box will be twisted when dry. You need one pair of these
for every box of the same size you will be making in one sitting. I have
about 4-10 pairs of each size. (I made extra. Now, where to store
these...)
Then, the anvil. 1 1/2" pipe flange and same size pipe 6-8" long, bolts to
a sturdy whatever you got, at proper height for copper brad tacking. I
mounted mine about nipple height when standing. Works for me.
Got your brads? I mail ordered mine from "The Home Shop", John Wilson back
east. Great company to deal with. I don't know any other companies today
that will take your order, mail your goods to you, then ask for the money.
I was shocked.
Ok, time to get wet. Borrowed my neighbors Coleman camp stove. Filled it
up with gas and started heating water. (My first attempt was a hot plate,
but no way - too much water). Put a piece of plywood (not MDF or particle
board - it will disintegrate quick, DAMHIKT) over the water to hold in the
heat. Once up to temperature (yes, I used my shirt-pocket thermometer) of
175 degrees, put a few box/lid pairs in.
Walnut worked beautifully. So did ash. Maple you gotta watch or you'll get
stains pretty easily. Don't mix woods in the boiling water, or if you do,
use the light woods first, then move on to the dark. The water does change
color as you boil the wood. Cherry seem to release the most color. Also,
cherry seems to be a little on the spongy side when that wet and hot, and
did not bend as smoothly as the others. Also, the cherry took a full two
days to dry to the same level that the other woods achieved overnight.
Ok, wood's been boiling (well, not boiling, just hot bathing) for 10-20
minutes. Get your mold in your lap. Get your pencil ready. Using a
stick, fish a box side out of the water, lifting up one end the grabbing it
with your free hand. Wear an apron or get burnt, your choice. With your
bare hands, while resting everything in your lap, fold the band around the
mold. You want the outside end with the fingers to land where the
predrilled nail holes are in the front middle. Pay attention that the
fingers you beveled have the bevels showing. Make note with a pencil, on
the mold, where to start the next band - you'll be quicker. If you jack
around too long, put the wood back in the water. Wrap it tight. Or, wrap
it loose. Either way, wrap it the same each time you do it, so that when
you get to box lid/bottom cutout time, you can save time. I wrapped mine
tight. Mark the overlap with two little pencil marks. Make thin marks, or
use a knife. Support your fingers while bending, or the wood will split,
so they say. I supported the fingers, and never got a break.
Now, take the mold out and set it aside. You're done with it, until the
next box that size. Now, over to your anvil and your copper tacks spread
out and watch your dexterous fingers picking them up. They are sharp,
you'll get poked if you pick too fast. Now, nail them up, clinching the
tacks on the anvil. I nailed the solid section of the band first, moving
from one side to the other, then went to the fingers. I was using my small
hammer, and when driving the copper nails with my steel hammer in the red
oak, I did get some staining. Yes, it happens that quick.
Now, get your formers. Remember lining top/bottom up. Also, drill holes
(two holes, one on the real small ones) so tomorrow morning, you can get the
formers out of the box. Push them in, even and snug. Now, put this back in
your lap back at the wood bathtub.
Now, get the mating lid band for the box you just set up in your lap. Wrap
the lid TIGHT around the TOP of the box, fingers going the same way. Mark,
take to anvil, drive/clinch brads, mount lid band back on top of box. The
box is your former. Set both aside to dry overnight or longer.
When dry, remove the lid band and formers. Some will lift right out, others
you'll have to knock out. Sand the inside. Oscillating spindle sander
works great, and you'll learn right fast whether or not you lined up the
formers properly.
Now, you make bottom and lids, which are, different sizes. I used 1/4"
white pine. 3/16" is too thin when it comes to drilling toothpick holes
later. Lids are just a little bigger, well, roughly (or maybe not so rough)
about twice the thickness of the wood along the minor and major axis of the
oval. So, the inside of the lid can be used to mark the bottom of the box.
To mark the lid, I took my round pencil, held it vertical against the
outside of the box (not the lid) and outlined an oval. This worked out to
be a great starting point for rough cutting the lid so it could be sanded to
exact shape, with the proper bevel. I found making each lid/bottom custom
for each box produced better results with a tighter fit than making one
template for all lids/bottoms (DAMHIKT either.)
So, fit the lids, then make another jig. This one drills round holes for
the square toothpicks that hold the lid/bottom to the sides. I had an old,
1/4" electric drill laying around, so I used it for the jig (where it has
stayed ever since, and I don't plan on taking it out.) I clamped my drill
flat sideways so the 1/8" bit would stick out sideways across the rest of
the jig. The idea here is to place the box on the jig, then slide it into
the drill bit, just like a horizontal boring jig, so you get the right depth
at the right height every time. I used two finish nails to limit the travel
of the box into the bit. I got this from watching the John Wilson "How to
Make a Shaker Oval Box" video (worth it if you are going to make these) I
guess the center of the bit sits about 1/8" from the top of the jig where
the box sits.
Then, drill the holes for the bottom, then flip it over and drill for the
lid. Visually line up the holes you already drilled in the bottom when
drilling the lid. That way, it looks better than randomly placed holes,
sort of like you were thinking about what you were doing when you did it. .
Break the square birch (no favoritism here) toothpicks in two and drive
them into the hole, pointy tip first, with just a tad of glue on their tips.
To get rid of any gaps in the lid between the lid top and lid band, squirt
in some glue and sand to get sanding dust into the glue. Same for the
bottom. Don't worry about gaps in the inside, as the lid/bottom are tapered
anyway.
Ok, you're almost done, and it is Christmas eve now. Mount an abrasive flap
wheel in your drill press and sand the outside of the box and lid. Quickest
and easiest way I know, so far.
Apply the finish of your choice. Insert cookies/candies, whatever, wrap
with a wide ribbon, and there you go. I haven't done this yet, but will:
paint some with milk paint, scuff some of the corners to make it look worn,
then put on your sealer coat. A matching set would look stunning, and
painted in the right colors, could match any decor.
A lot of work, a several day event, but well worth the effort. The tough
part is giving them away.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas. (really needing to do some work today)
----------
From: chuck.steger at erols.com
To: Todd Burch
Subject: RE: Small Project
Date: November 16, 1998 12:03PM
On Monday, November 16, 1998 12:44 PM, tburch at cdbsoftware.com
[SMTP:tburch at cdbsoftware.com] wrote:
> Todd Burch, Houston Texas. ( Last year, I made 27 shaker oval boxes.
> They
> were a real hit, but they take a lot of set up work. Once set up
> though,
> you can really kick 'em out.)
Todd,
Interested in the oval shaker boxes as I'm getting ready to embark
on some. I have plans but was just curious as to your method. Did you
boil the wood or steam it to bend it. What was your form? What wood(s)
did you use? All the gory details!
Chuck
From: George Jones [geo at hom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; AG Kesmetis
Subject: Re: Small Project
A variation on the bird house. Bat House, simple and yet unique.
geo
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 12:26 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: chuck.steger at erols.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Small Project
Thanks for that almost-complete description. To make it
complete, some descriptive picures are called for. Is this
possible for you? I'm afraid my visualization went rather
quickly (and once lost, the balance of the description is
hard to follow).
You write well, with enough touches of humor (or
humanism) to be amusing without letting it get in the way of
your content. Think about publishing.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; AG Kesmetis
Subject: Re: Small Project
I have done a similar project for High Schoolers for several
years. One of the projects that became an instant favorites
was a shoe shine box. The kind that shoeshine boys used to
carry on the streets of every major city, back when there
was shoeshine boys about.
Many homes have a collection of shoe polish cans and
bottles, brushes, rags, etc. piled in a corner of a closet
or in the drawer of a nightstand.
Other ideas that may work are...a tool tote for Dad.....a
cutting board for Mom.......a coat rack by the front
door.......an umbrella stand........a deacon's bench for the
"mud room" for a place to sit when pulling off your
boots........a wall mounted shelf with cup hooks for hanging
the car keys.......step stool to reach the top shelf in the
kitchen or garage......jewelry boxes for Mom and
Dad..........plant stands for the home or patio........
....and the beat goes on.
10Q,
Moose
From: Hersh, Harry [Harry.Hersh at fmr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 12:20 PM
To: 'AG Kesmetis'
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Small Project
Aaron,
Here are some classic kitchen craft ideas (I'm sure you've seen all of
these):
- Small cutting board (plane, glue, sand, no finish)
- Knife holder block (plane, cut dadoes, glue, sand, no finish)
- Vertical paper towel holder (pine for bottom, side, top &
dowell in middle; butt joints and finish nails top & bottom)
- Napkin holder (2 dowels, 1 knob, base, hold-down board)
Harry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AG Kesmetis [SMTP:aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 11:18 AM
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Small Project
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm having a group of 8 teenage boys over to the shop this week to
> build a
> small project for them to give as Christmas presents to their parents.
> Last
> year we did picture frames and they've also done birdhouses. I'm
> looking
> for ideas for a project that can be built in a couple hours with some
> prep
> work done by me ahead of time and finishing done another time.
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
>
> AG Kesmetis
> Lowell, MA
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
> 25 minutes north of Boston
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Small Project Update
Well, last night was the night. I had eight boys from 13-16 years old plus
myself and two other adults in my basement shop last night. I gave the boys
a choice of two projects. The first was a three peg Shaker style coat/hat
rack. It was made of #2 pine 1"x6"x2'. I precut the boards to length. They
then used a router with a round over bit, sanded it and drilled the holes
for the pegs. The other project was a plant hanger. Again I used #2 pine. I
took a 1x and ripped it to 3/4" wide by 12" long. I precut all the pieces
for them. They then had to mark and drill on the drill press a hole at each
end. I then cut a 1/4"x12"x12" square of plywood for the base with a hole
at each corner. They then stack the wood like making a log cabin and run
twine up through one set of holes and down the holes diagonally across.
Repeat for the other two sets of holes.
It took about an hour and a half for them to complete this and everyone got
to go home with something, even the two adults. All in all a really good
time and the boys got to use tools they would never have access to. Future
woodworkers? Maybe.
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: kayak at one.net
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:09 PM
To: AG Kesmetis
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Small Project Update
Reminds me of how my interest in woodworking got started. My uncle who lives
in Sparta, NC used to have a one-man custom kitchen cabinet shop. The first
time our family visited them, back when I was around 12 years old, I loved
hanging out in the shop and "helping" him. He never seemed to mind, and always
came up with wood for me to work on my own little projects. His shop is about a
24 x 30 concrete block building in his back yard, and now it sits vacant, his
doctor told him he had to give up one job or the other, and the cabinet
business didn't pay as much as his other job. I wish I had his shop now; I
have a 12 x 22 foot shop with a 7 foot ceiling in my basement. I just piddle
around, pretty much like I did when I was 12, and I still love doing it.
Zane Harris
AG Kesmetis wrote:
> ..Future woodworkers? Maybe...
From: Pianoman [dldahl at juno.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 7:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; AG Kesmetis
Subject: Re: Small Project Update
Sounds like a great evening!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
-----Original Message-----
From: AG Kesmetis <aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net>
To: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 6:47 PM
Subject: Small Project Update
>Well, last night was the night. I had eight boys from 13-16 years old plus
>myself and two other adults in my basement shop last night. I gave the boys
>a choice of two projects. The first was a three peg Shaker style coat/hat
>rack. It was made of #2 pine 1"x6"x2'. I precut the boards to length. They
>then used a router with a round over bit, sanded it and drilled the holes
>for the pegs. The other project was a plant hanger. Again I used #2 pine. I
>took a 1x and ripped it to 3/4" wide by 12" long. I precut all the pieces
>for them. They then had to mark and drill on the drill press a hole at each
>end. I then cut a 1/4"x12"x12" square of plywood for the base with a hole
>at each corner. They then stack the wood like making a log cabin and run
>twine up through one set of holes and down the holes diagonally across.
>Repeat for the other two sets of holes.
>
>It took about an hour and a half for them to complete this and everyone got
>to go home with something, even the two adults. All in all a really good
>time and the boys got to use tools they would never have access to. Future
>woodworkers? Maybe.
>
>
>AG Kesmetis
>Lowell, MA
>http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
>25 minutes north of Boston
From: Frank Karnes [searcher at netzone.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 2:43 PM
To: Woodworking List (E-mail)
Subject: Small Shop Air Compressors
Hi All,
The last week has been purgatory; Why?
Last Monday got sawdust in the eye (left) cutting a kick board for the
front door for the Museum's library. Wednesday, couldn't play golf 'cause
couldn't see the ball out of the left eye.
Wed pm got appointment w optometrist for Thurs eye exam (had one scheduled
for the Friday +one week for new glasses).
Later Wed pm got bu cu catalogs (all woodworking of course).
Last three days, after drops from eye doctor, have been reading catalogs.
My current desire is: An "Air Compressor".
After all the threads on this list think I know:
1. Don't buy oiless.
2. Don't buy Non-USA.
Questions:
1. With limited funds, what has your best experience been?
2, What do you recommend?
Intended usage:
1. Air Tools
Brad nailers
Finish Spraying (Wood Working Projects, and decks -I have big ones)
Cleaning the Shop (Leaf Blower and shop vac now serve)
Tire pump
Mechanic Tools
2. Painting
Have some big areas that will require painting in the next 3-5 years:
and , have heard glowing comments regarding HVLP.
But, considering my other intended usage, is HVLP the way to go?
My painting requirements are small considering all the intended usage.
I could get by with my airless sprayer, although more time would be
spent.
Thanks for your thoughts
Cheers
Frank
From: Eirrehs at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 1998 7:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Small Shop Air Compressors
>>Actually scfm means "standard cubic feet per minute" and is the most
>>accurate way to compare the flow rate of different compressors. It's been
>>around a long time. The reason we use "standard" cubic feet per minute is
>>that we are comparing apples to apples, no matter what the actual pressure
>>Actual "scfm" means Standard Cubic Feet per Minuet. That is one cubic
>>foot of gas at a temperature of 60 degrees F at 14.7 psia.
Thanks for the responses.
What I meant to convey with my sentiments was that this rating is like
"developed Horse power" ,"Peak Horse Power" or on my house vacuum that is
rated at "12 amp". I think that these companies are doing a disservice to the
consumers by making up these ratings. When I was shopping for a compressor I
was told over and over again, by several different stores, the SCFM was the
same as CFM. YA RIGHT! I ended up buying a compressor that should have
provided plenty of performance, yet I ended up returning it a couple of days
later because it didn't come close to what I needed. I finally called
Ingersoll Rand and was told about the difference. They told me that I needed a
$500-600 compressor to meet my needs. If you look on all of the newer
compressors ($200-300) they are mainly given in SCFM; apparently to make them
look more powerful and generally to baffle the consumer.
Thanks for listening to me rattle
Alan W
Turlock California
From: Eirrehs at tnb.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Small Shop Air Compressors
>>Actually scfm means "standard cubic feet per minute" and is the most
>>accurate way to compare the flow rate of different compressors. It's been
>>around a long time. The reason we use "standard" cubic feet per minute is
>>that we are comparing apples to apples, no matter what the actual pressure
>>Actual "scfm" means Standard Cubic Feet per Minuet. That is one cubic
>>foot of gas at a temperature of 60 degrees F at 14.7 psia.
Thanks for the responses.
What I meant to convey with my sentiments was that this rating is like
"developed Horse power" ,"Peak Horse Power" or on my house vacuum that is
rated at "12 amp". I think that these companies are doing a disservice to the
consumers by making up these ratings. When I was shopping for a compressor I
was told over and over again, by several different stores, the SCFM was the
same as CFM. YA RIGHT! I ended up buying a compressor that should have
provided plenty of performance, yet I ended up returning it a couple of days
later because it didn't come close to what I needed. I finally called
Ingersoll Rand and was told about the difference. They told me that I needed a
$500-600 compressor to meet my needs. If you look on all of the newer
compressors ($200-300) they are mainly given in SCFM; apparently to make them
look more powerful and generally to baffle the consumer.
Thanks for listening to me rattle
Alan W
Turlock California
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Software
Bruce and Fellow Woodworkers,
Generally, it is not considered appropriate for a listserv member to
"advertise" his or her own product, but I believe other members will
forgive me since this is in response to a direct question. (Besides I could
not resist !). Members of this listserv that are not interested by
woodworking software packages should ignore the present (rather long)
e-mail.
I am the owner and president of a company called Intellectimedia Inc.. We
specialize in developping informative ("edutainment") multimedia software.
Our newest software package is schedule to come out in mid-october and (you
guest it !) it is about woodworking.
The multimedia CD-ROM package is a series of four educational or
informative programs, which have been developed specifically for amateur
woodworkers. Its structure was designed to allow woodworkers to quickly and
easily find the information there are looking for, by helping them navigate
through a massive amount of information on: wood, tools, techniques,
safety, shop math, project design, wood joints, gluing and clamping, making
curved shapes, applying a finish, and more... It would allow to do things
like wood shrinkage calculations, search for wood species that matches
specific characteristics, etc.
But enough... Members of this listserv that will want to know more, will be
able to get all the details they want in a new WEB site
(http:\\www.WoodworkingInfo.com). This web site is NOT FONCTIONAL YET but will be
up towards the end of this month.
Sorry for the long message,
Michel Garceau, ing.
Intellectimedia Inc.
intellec at sympatico.ca
----------
> De : Bruce Gowens <bgowens at home.com>
> A : woodworking at theoak.com
> Objet : Software
> Date�: dimanche 30 ao�t 1998 06:52
>
> Just takeing a look at "Sheet Layout", shareware, from
> sheetlayout.com . Has anyone had experience with this
> program that would care to comment on it?
>
> I'd be interested on comments re any other Windows 95/98
> programs that are useful to Woodworkers.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 7:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Software
Was it?
http://www.surpher.com/TRADE/
Keith Bohn
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 1:52 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: some thoughts and experiences while the site was down.
I tried to send this during the short time the site was
down, so it's really messed up with the quote markes. I
resend because I think there is some "content" here--even if
it is foolish.
Subject: Sheet goods / small TS / inaccurate tape measure
>>
> My TS is too small to handle accurate cuts on full 4x8
> sheets.
>
> I bought a piece of aluminum stock at Orchard Supply
> Hardware. Angle-"iron" 1.5 inch flanges, 1/8 inch thick, 6
> ft. long. About $15.00 US. I cut off 1.5 feet for smaller
> boards, the balance 4.5 ft. is for sheet goods. Now I've
> got some circular saw guides as well as another straight
> edge at a reasonable price.
>
> I clamped the guide to some scrap (9 inch bar clamps),
> drew a line along it, and cut off the end with my circular
> saw using the guide. This is now an "offset" measure for
> that saw, the distance between the edge and the line being
> the distance from the outer blade edge to the edge of the
> saw "foot".
>
> For sheet goods, I mark my location of cut, use the
> offset measure to mark where the guide should go (put the
> pencil line on the saw mark with the _square_ side edge of
> the measure along the side of my work, draw line along the
> edge of the guide), and then draw a long line to set the
> guide on. I draw that line using a Hyde "Giant Square" (a
> T-square, also known as a sheet-rock T-square, aluminum with
> a four foot long stem). Clamp the guide to the line with my
> short bar clamps. Use circular saw.
>
> Just did a bunch of cuts that had to match in 3/4
> melamine and the pieces were perfect.
>
> Interesting discovery: One of my Stanley measuring tapes
> is not accurate. I happened to have two tapes at hand, and
> switched them when "measuring twice" the offset width for my
> circular saw. You can bet this lead to a flurry of
> comparing measurements on every tape and rule in the shop!
> The offender is a 30' Stanley Powerlock model 33-430V
> (orange case, 1" wide tape). It measures 1/16" short when
> the end clip is used (most common method of using a tape).
> The markings are accurate, so it is the end clip that is at
> fault.
>
> One reaction to the inaccurate tape was the realization
> that my test cut was a way to make an always-accurate
> measure, eliminating the transferal of one picky measurement
> (1 3/16").
>
> While I'm babbling, I'm glad I used Melimine for the
> side extentions of my RAS. Mark it with a pencil (for
> clamping a stop or whatever) and later wipe the mark off
> with a little spit on a finger (seems to work better than
> water on a finger). Convienent.
From: Jake [jakej at bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:23 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Something To Think About (not WW'ing, but wanted to share)
Something To Think About
This is a story about four people named
Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and
Everybody was sure Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but
Nobody realized Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when
Nobody did what Anybody could have done!!!
Happy Holidays,
Jake
From: Thomas Carman [tecarman at goldrush.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 8:06 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Spiral Upcut router bits
I've been following the thread on this topic and I would like to relay
some of my observations and experiences. Some of the decisions I made
some time ago concerning router bits was that whenever possible, use a
1/2" shank router bit, use a bearing bit, and use a carbide bit. Also,
I have found that 1/4" mortises in 3/4" material is too small, 3/8" is
the minimum and 1/2" is OK but not my preference.
I recently had a problem with a spiral upcut router bit. I bought an
Amana 3/8" (1/2"shank) solid carbide two flute spiral upcut router bit
about a year and a half ago and never used it until last month. I cut 8
mortises 1" deep (4 were 2 1/2" in length & 4 were 3 1/2" in length).
The material was cherry. I used a Bosch plunge router set at 12000 RPM
& a Bosch edge guide. I made each mortise in 3 passes. When I finished,
the bit was burned and the carbide was fractured and chipped. I
following Don Weisman's advice and called the manufacture. The best we
could figure out was that my feed rate was too slow and the depth of cut
should be no more than 1/4" or less at a time. The tips of these bits
really take a beating and can over heat very easy. Overheating was what
caused the carbide to fracture. Amana advised me that they had changed
the design of this bit and the new design should work better but to
remember than the same rules apply. Don't let the bit get too hot &
take small cuts. Oh, by the way, Amana sent me a new bit at no charge.
That's the kind of people I like to do business with.
Tom
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 10:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: spiraling, reeding, fluting
For those more serious about spiraling, reeding, fluting, barley twists
and much more, Legacy Ornamental Milling Machine by Phantom Engineering
is a another option. It will handle larger work, up to 5' and is a much
heavier duty machine. There are several models available varying in
price from the mid-hundreds to the thousands.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:55 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: spiraling, reeding, fluting
>For those more serious about spiraling, reeding, fluting, barley twists
>and much more, Legacy Ornamental Milling Machine by Phantom Engineering
>is a another option. It will handle larger work, up to 5' and is a much
>heavier duty machine. There are several models available varying in
>price from the mid-hundreds to the thousands.
>Don Weisman
Gee Don, the Sears thing is $199 and the cheapest Legacy machine is
$499 ($3,445 max.). I wonder which one is better?
http://www.legacywoodworking.com/home.html
Keith Bohn
P.S. I'm not foolish enough to equate high prices with quality on all
woodworking tools unless we are talking about Sears. Then it's a
given, i.e., a broken Bosch router is still better than any Sears
router.
From: Michel Garceau [intellec at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:07 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: spiraling, reeding, fluting
For those who are interested in special types of tools for doing those
things on the lathe, access:
http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/spiral_sys.htm
Michel
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
� : woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date : 15 octobre, 1998 01:14
Objet : spiraling, reeding, fluting
From: Andy Rudnitsky [rudnitsky at phoenixengineering.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 6:28 AM
To: Woodworking Mailing List
Subject: Stabilizing natural edges on lumber
I've recently come across some resawn wood with a nice looking natural edge.
I'd like to incorporate this into some boxes I'm making, but I don't know
how to treat the natural edge, bark, etc. to keep it from crumbling so
easily.
I've seen turned pieces with natural edges and pieces from wood with voids
and gaps in it, so there must be some information on the subject out there.
Any of you guys and gals do this kind of stuff? What do you use to keep the
edge from falling apart?
Thanks,
Andy
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 12:15 PM
To: Andy Rudnitsky
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stabilizing natural edges on lumber
Hi Andy,
I am a woodturner doing mostly natural edge bowls. Whether or not the bark
stays on the edge of the bowl depends upon several factors. One is how long
the wood has been cut, and how long it has been on the ground. If decay has
already started, the wood may still be great for turning, but the bark will
usually be looser and more crumbly. Different kinds of bark seem to adhere
to the wood with more tenacity than others.
One way to secure the bark is to run a thin line of Hot Stuff "original"
(the thinest viscosity) or other cyanoacrylate glue along the line betwwen
the bark and the wood. It is drawn right into the bark line. This works
very well, but can be visible on some lighter woods. Do a test piece first.
Wendy
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 9:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Stain Pads
The other day I delivered a cabinet to a client who is a leather
crafter/saddle maker. As we stood around chewing the fat, I noticed where
his trash can was filled pieces of fleece - something that is customarily
sewn onto the bottoms of the saddles - and I instantly regarded them to be
perfect pads for stain application.
Scooping them up I returned to the shop and gave them a try. They worked
like a charm and have a lot of capacity....well, considerably more than
your commercial stain pads. Anyway, I have a couple of questions:
1. Since I only tried them on scrap and not on a piece that will be
finished, is lanolin something that will affect any finishes?
2. Because the fleece was tanned or whatever it is they do to hides,
wouldn't the lanolin be processed out?
Paint thinner cleaned the these pads extremely well and once it flashed
off, I couldn't see where any damage was done to the leather and the wool
fibers were still firmly held. So, has anyone else tried sheep fleece for
this purpose or know a reason why they shouldn't be used as such?
Joe
If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 4:13 AM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stain Pads
Joe Johns wrote:
>
> The other day I delivered a cabinet to a client who is a leather
> your commercial stain pads. Anyway, I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Since I only tried them on scrap and not on a piece that will be
> finished, is lanolin something that will affect any finishes?
Yes.
>
> 2. Because the fleece was tanned or whatever it is they do to hides,
> wouldn't the lanolin be processed out?
A certain amount would. But without analysis it's difficult to know
exactly just how much remains.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Dean Wilcox [dwilcox at austin.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Staining a Bookcase
I have just spent the last two months constructing a bookcase for SWMBO.
Today I went and purchased some stain. Now I must state that I am a
rookie to the art of woodworking, however in my opinion, the
bookcase turned out quite nice. As for finishing with stains I am
really a beginner. I am nervous about messing up the finish work.
I purchased Sealacell's Red Mahogany. The shop's display had the stain
on pine and oak. It appeared to match the color pattern I was using.
Tonight I took a piece of scrap wood (soft maple) that I made the
bookcase from and applied some stain. Much to my chagrin not only was
the color wrong, but the finished wood was speckled (little dark spots
that appeared after I wiped the stain off.) I spent 10 minutes stiring
the stain in the can and I used clean white cloth to apply the stain and
another clean white cloth to remove the stain 3-5 minutes later.
SWMBO does not want a leopard print on her new bookbase, please help!!
Thanks,
Dean
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 1:04 PM
To: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
I don't think I have ever seen or heard of Sealacell. I
have no idea what it is.
There are oil stains and water-based stains. The
water-based can raise the grain, so that what you thought
was sanded smooth is now no longer smooth. I think there is
a technique for using water based stains but I sure don't
know it.
My method with oil based stains is simplicty itself. I
lay it on with a rag, enough to get the whole surface wet.
If any part of the surface looks a little dry I put more on
that part. I do not worry about being even or anything
else, I just slop it on. The more the merrier.
I wait four to ten minutes, and then wipe off the excess
with a clean new rag.
Grain is made up of soft and hard parts. The soft parts
will absorb the stain faster than the hard parts. This is
how stain brings out the grain pattern. Each absorbs at
it's own rate, and can not absorb any more than that rate
will permit in the time before my wipe-down. i.e.--it can
not absorb too much.
Other factors will affect absorbtion, however. The
smoother the wood, the slower the absorbtion. So if you
have spent more time fine sanding on one part, that part
might be less absorbant.
You were very wise to test on the same wood. If your
test peice was not sanded to the same degree, the test might
be off. Your dark spots _might_ be due to the grain of the
maple, in which case all stains might give the same
results. I'm quite sure maple will stain differently than
pine and oak.
No matter what, if you don't like the results of that
stain, try another.
From: Brent Begg [monsec at better.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 4:13 AM
To: Bruce Gowens; dwilcox at austin.ibm.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
Dean:
I'm a relatively new woodworker as well.
I agree with Bruce- slop it on with a brush- wipe it off with a clean lint
free cloth.
The only other thing I do is use a pre stain conditioner. I've always used
Minwax stains and I also used the Minwax conditioner. It seems to help with
the even absorption especially on pine. I also use two coats of stain.
There's my opinion for what it's worth!
Good Luck
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:20 AM
To: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
Howdy Dean
Since you have already gotten some good posts concerning stain (pay
particular attention to the part where they say to make sure your scrap test
piece is sanded to the same level as your finished and ready to be stained
piece) I'll just add my little bit for aniline dyes.
Easy to use, doesn't obscure the grain but enhances it, very versatile since
you can mix to the intensity you want, and my coloring of choice unless I
have a piece of stock where I really want to hide some of the grain.
Also, having recently tried a gel stain on a pine piece I was quite pleased
over the results compared with what I get when I use the traditional non gel
stains.
One more thing re the spots you experienced. You may want to strain your
stain through some cheese cloth or an old pair of panty hose, while the
spots may or may not have been caused by a clot of the pigment used in the
stain straining will eliminate that worry.
A thought
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 11:06 AM
To: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
Dean,
Maple, like cherry and some other woods can not be stained simply by
slopping on the stain. I don't remember why or what the correct procedure
is but I remember reading that there were certain steps that had to be
followed. I'm at work now but I could send you more info when I get home
and search through my notes and printed articles.
Aaron
From: Ralph Bowden [ralph.bowden at solidsystems.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:38 PM
To: AG Kesmetis
Cc: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
dean, take out and wash down with laquer thinner before you do any thing
else and it will come off. Ive done this plenty of times.
I have finished enough to buy little containers of the colors i think I want
and test them on a scrap of the material. This way you know the finial
color. I use a spit coat of shellac or laquer first, 50/50 to help seal.
Then start staining. On your sample finish it all the way to the finished
product
Between each coat of stain, I sand with 400 lightly and use atleast 2 coats
of stain and then at least 3 coats of top coat.
At least you know what you will get this way. GoodLuck rb
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 1:55 PM
To: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com; aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
Just yesterday morning, before work, I watched a video put out by Taunton.
Refinishing Furniture with Bob Flexner.
I've used pigment stains before, but never dye stains. After watching this
video, when it comes to matching a color or giving woods like maple/birch a
lot of color, I now think dye stains are the way to go.
In the video, on maple, he started with black dye. Wood turned black, real
black. Then, on top of that, he went with red. No more black! Red to the
bone. Then, he took yellow. No more red - just yellow! I was amazed.
Could the little dark spots be the hint of a faint birdseye pattern in your
soft maple? This grain direction change would be more porous than the other
areas, thus accepting more pigment, thus getting darker.
If you can't get the spots out with thinner or by sanding, try bleaching
with oxalic acid. If that doesn't work, use chlorine bleach (both, in that
order, were also recommended by above video). Then, try a dye stain.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:58 AM
To: Mike G.
Cc: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
I have some liquid (in solvent) aniline dyes I sometimes
mix with ordinary oil stain. I find the yellow particularly
useful for warming up a stain.
From: Joe [burnie at erie.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:47 PM
To: dwilcox at austin.ibm.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Staining a Bookcase
Dean,
I am just finishing 2 hope chests that I built out of maple. My last project
was a dry sink, also out of maple. Maple, like cherry has a very close
grain, making it hard to stain. Oil stains can turn out blotchy, gel stains
work better but tend to hide the grain. I used Behrlen aniline dye stain. It
is an NGR (non grain raising) stain, but it still tends to raise grain.
The procedure I used was to sand to 220 grit. Raise the grain by dampening
surfaces with water. Remove raised grain with 400 grit. I then stained the
pieces.
If any grain still raised up, I carefully sand with 600 grit. You can then
finish with whatever you want. On the dry sink, I used Gillespies tung oil
finish. On the hope chests I am using shellac, and it brings out the grain
and color even more.
Bob Flexners book, "Understanding Wood Finishes" helped me out alot
Joe
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:40 AM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains ... and post scripsit on Clinton
How 'bout shoe polish? I've gotten some very nice results from brown shoe
polishes. The one I'm thinking of may be simply the Brown. I used it for
some shelving boards a few years ago, and I still like the effect.
Incidentally, I've used Minwax gel stains and I really like them much more
than the liquid type.
Cheers,
Steve
P.S. Oh, speaking of stains - how 'bout the one (many?) on the U.S.A.? . .
. "majority of the country" what? No, the truth is that a lot of unpolled
Americans are sick of the liberal controlled media telling us that "the
American people" side with the Clintonites - who no longer have a fraction of
a shred of credibility. I am one of the majority never polled, and so too
anyone with whom I've spoken. Yet everyone I speak with on this issue is
TIRED of W.J. Clinton and the Clintionites, not the impeachment. At least a
post to this list doesn't have to go through liberal filters before you get to
read it. Thanks for the original post to whoever sent it.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:04 AM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com; kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains ... and post scripsit on Clinton
Howdy Steve
I've experimented with shoe polishes myself. I've found that the liquid shoe
stuff does indeed give a nice finish if you are looking for an ebony look
but have to caution that using shoe polish (the stuff in the flat cans) can
cause some serious problems if you are planing to add any finish on top of
it.
-----Original Message-----
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com <SDigiac503 at aol.com>
To: kbyfield at terracom.net <kbyfield at terracom.net>; woodworking at theoak.com
<woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Stains ... and post scripsit on Clinton
> How 'bout shoe polish? I've gotten some very nice results from brown shoe
>polishes. The one I'm thinking of may be simply the Brown. I used it for
>some shelving boards a few years ago, and I still like the effect.
> Incidentally, I've used Minwax gel stains and I really like them much more
>than the liquid type.
>Cheers,
>Steve
A thought
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:04 AM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com; kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains ... and post scripsit on Clinton
Howdy Steve
I've experimented with shoe polishes myself. I've found that the liquid shoe
stuff does indeed give a nice finish if you are looking for an ebony look
but have to caution that using shoe polish (the stuff in the flat cans) can
cause some serious problems if you are planing to add any finish on top of
it.
From: William K. Marshall [chip2 at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:20 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Stains?
All right, but what about "natural" stain. I am making a pine box right now
(first project) and I am using Minwax natural stain. Am I really doing any
good using it or would I get the same look with just a flat polyurethane? I
know that the grain will stand out when any clear coat finish is applied.
Hmmm... When I get back from this underway I'll sand down some scrap pine
and just put some poly on it and see if there is any difference.
Talk to you all later.
Chip
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:40 AM
To: William K. Marshall
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Stains?
William K. Marshall wrote:
>
> All right, but what about "natural" stain. I am making a pine box right now
> (first project) and I am using Minwax natural stain. Am I really doing any
> good using it or would I get the same look with just a flat polyurethane? I
> know that the grain will stand out when any clear coat finish is applied.
> Hmmm... When I get back from this underway I'll sand down some scrap pine
> and just put some poly on it and see if there is any difference.
>
> Talk to you all later.
>
> Chip
Chip:
One has to question what Minwax "Natural" stain can do to enhance your
Pine, assuming it contains no colorant. An oil base product, by it's
very nature of containing "oil", will make it slightly darker...as any
oil will. If the product is waterbased instead, it will add nothing as
far as color.
It would be far better to use a pre-stain or stain conditioner to avoid
blotch's that are coomon to Pine. Stain blockers or conditoners to
prevent/reduce stain from causing blotchy area's can be a home brew
type. Dissolve 8 oz of boiled linseed oil into a gallon of
mineral sprits. Keep porous areas wet. After 10 minutes or so, wipe off
the excess. Allow to dry no more than 2 hours and apply topcoats.
The wisdom in sampling cannot be argued with as long as the "real thing"
and the sample are both prepared in the identical same manner. (Planing
to sanding with the same grits for the same length of time). Only then
can one be assured the sample will resemble the article.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Donald Weisman <abacus at pdq.net>
> To: Bruce Gowens <bgowens at home.com>
> Cc: Cheryl & Bill <ridenour at wilmington.net>; <woodworking at theoak.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Stains?
>
> >Bruce Gowens wrote:
> >>
> >> I would think that oil stains would have some
> >> protective properties.
> >
> >Bruce,
> >You might think that, but it isn't so.
> >
> >Bill Ridenour is correct that the topcoat is for the protection.
> >--
> >Don Weisman
> >Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Dick and Linda Neri [linda.n at poboxes.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:52 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains?
Does your home brew do a good job of evening out the staining of pine?
Getting a good finish is the main reason I stay away from using pine for any
wood projects. I would like to find a way of obtaining a good finish on
pine so I could use more of it in my projects.
I also am not sure if you are saying 8oz or two cups (16oz) per gallon of
mineral spirits.
Any help/thoughts would be appreciated
Dick Neri
Dick.n at bigfoot.com
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:52 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Dick and Linda Neri
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains?
On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:26:56 -0500, Donald Weisman wrote:
>I repeat, "Dissolve 1(8 oz) or 2 cups of boiled linseed oil into a
>gallon of
A cup cup is 8oz. Did you mean 2 cups or 1 pint (16 oz).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 1:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; linda.n at poboxes.com
Subject: Re: Stains?
I use pine all the time. It is VERY easy to put a bad finish on pine. For
instance, ANY pigment stain, directly on pine, is a bad finish as it causes
the grain to reverse (early wood takes all the pigment, gets darker - late
wood takes little or no pigment, stays the same color).
So, you have to seal it. Pick one - lacquer, shellac, varnish or
polyurethane. Lacquer is quick. Shellac is quick. Poly is quick.
Varnish is not as quick. Sand to 220 grit. Now, you have sealed the wood.
Now, do what you will - apply your favorite color.
I've used MinWax Polyshades on pine. When using a dark(er) color, if I
don't seal the wood, the grain still reverses - it has a pigment stain in
it. So, when I want to use a darker Polyshades on pine, I start with a
couple coats of Honey Pine Polyshades first. When that is dry and smooth, I
apply Antique maple (or whatever) - I get the color I want, I get no
blotching, the grain is subdued, and if you put in on in the warmth, and
take it immediately to the cold (coldth?), guess what - you get
mini-crackle! (I found this out this last summer, working in the heat of
the garage, then taking the piece inside in the air conditioning to show my
wife, and we both watched it crackle. Good thing it was a test piece.)
As for me, I usually, after 2 to 3 coats of any of the above mentioned
sealers, stop there. Amber shellac looks nice. The more you put on the
darker it gets.
You can also give pine a wash coat with milk paint. Just about any color
you would want, or can mix.
Finishing, for me, is the necessary evil of woodworking. I've reset my
thinking recently to not rush the finishing stages. If you gotta rush, rush
the cutout and assembly, but not the design or finishing.
I'm leaning towards the practice of finishing the interior of a piece, if it
needs finishing, prior to assembly. It is SO easy to finish a horizontal
surface than a vertical surface, or a narrow area in between shelves, or
with bad lighting, or in cramped quarters, or, ... When everything is
laying flat, and using a decent light, you can easily achieve an even
finish, can see any flaw you induce, leave no "holidays" (dry areas in the
finish you missed), and all sorts of other hazards. And, have you ever
tried to rub out the inside of a cabinet after it was assembled? I haven't,
and don't want to!
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas - just south of "pulp" wood country. (East
Texas).
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 1:25 PM
To: Bill Hartmann
Cc: Dick and Linda Neri; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Stains?
Bill Hartmann wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:26:56 -0500, Donald Weisman wrote:
>
> >I repeat, "Dissolve 1(8 oz) or 2 cups of boiled linseed oil into a
> >gallon of
>
> A cup cup is 8oz. Did you mean 2 cups or 1 pint (16 oz).
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Hartmann
>
> Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
>
> billh at tfs.net
Use 8 Oz (1 cup), or 16 oz (2 cups) of Boiled linseed... .
Guys, I wrote it that way because it seems the standard quantity of
ounces in a cup is shrinking. My coffee maker says it's 4 cups. They
must mean demitasse cups. And God only knows how many ounces are in a
Canadian cup, if they use ounces, that is. Anyhow I wanted to take the
confusion out (of the cup). Apparently, I put more in.
At this point, let me inject that 1 cup to a gallon is really, or barely
adequate, but is sufficient to take care of the blotchy Pine, and resist
the tempation of recoating. If you re-coat to much, it's difficult to
stain dark.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:57 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Straight cutting with a circular saw
>I examined a number of the cuts. There is no evidence of swirling. The
>cut edges look finer-grained, if such can be said of a particle board
>product, than do the factory edges, and are of a paler colour,
>presumably from less exposure to light. Some pieces have no chipping at
>all, while others have a noticeably rough edge in the Melamine surface.
>This makes me think the masking tape did not do a whole lot of good, and
>that the non-chipped edges are the ones that were under the shoe guide,
>while the rough edges were the other side of the cut.
I wouldn't discount the effectiveness of using the masking tape. In
other words, it could have been worse.
>It would seem that some kind of a guide that gives that zero-tolerance
>that has been talked about here for table saws, would be the ticket for
>smooth cuts on both sides.
Yes it would/should give you a better looking face cut.
>An uniformed question: would something like
>that for a circular saw contribute to kick-back?
I don't know but my arm chair engineering says no. First off you're
running against a guide which eliminates the first reason for circular
saws to kick back. Secondly you should be able to push the saw slow
enough that you aren't trying to over do it.
>I realize one would need whatever is devised to be blade specific.
And keep in mind the saw guard is no longer usable. You'll have to
unlearn the reflex to set the saw down before it quits spinning. :-O
Keith Bohn
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 5:29 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Straight cutting with a circular saw
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny E. Cook <dcook01 at mail.win.org>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Straight cutting with a circular saw
>In other words, on
>the bottom of the board in relation to where your circular saw was riding.
>That blade, leaving the material being cut, can splinter out the material
on
>the backside. A "zero clearnace insert" would help, but don't think I've
>ever seen one for a circualr saw. But then, I've never seen a horse-fly or
>listened to a rubber-band.
Man, I have got to stop taking coffee breaks in front of this machine.
You've got your mind on one thing, see something, have a thought, and then
you make the mistake of opening your mouth (or moving your fingers in this
case). Anyway, pay no heed to what I said earlier. Of course the blade
exits on the up stroke, not the down as I alluded to originally. "Tis
better to let man think your ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove
all doubt."
On a construction site, a plunge cut can be made for a window opening in a
sheet of plywood by placing the forward edge of the saw on the material and
holding the rear off the material. Pull the guard up and out of the way,
start the saw, and push the body of the saw down and bingo, you've done a
plunge cut. However, it's not a truly accurate means for a cut, nor always
safe. How about a slightly oversized sheet of masonite with a stop block
for you to place the front of the saw against? Maybe a guide block to one
side of the sole. Once you've made the plunge cut, trace the sole and then
cut away the excess. I like the idea of the large slot for the blade guard
to move through though. Give it some strong consideration. The double back
tape may work alright, but maintain your respect for the machine and go
ahead and drill out two more holes to anchor the plate on the outboard side
of the blade.
From: Ted Cary [tcary at magicnet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 3:05 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: stripper
Hey Donald; Enjoy reading your posts these many months. Since your in the
furniture repair business, whats the best stripper for taking off
polyurethane?? I've tried a few of them but without much success, or at
least a lot of hard work. Ted Cary
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 2:28 PM
To: Ted Cary
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: stripper
Ted & Don;
Formby's has one that works really well. I've found that other strippers
just don't perform on poly. This is especially true with the "safe"
strippers. MHO.
Graham
ShortCuts - http://www.shortcuts.ns.caFrom: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 4:30 PM
To: Ted Cary
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: stripper
Ted Cary wrote:
>
> Hey Donald; Enjoy reading your posts these many months. Since your in the
> furniture repair business, whats the best stripper for taking off
> polyurethane?? I've tried a few of them but without much success, or at
> least a lot of hard work. Ted Cary
Hi Ted:
Poly removal can be a bear, and if Formbys has one like Graham said in
his post that is for Poly removal...that's the way to go.
I use another product..that works for me but requires a specific method
that must be followed to get the desired result. Essentially, it's using
a Methylene Chloride type "refinisher" and covering it up so it cannot
evaporate quickly. After being covered for 5 minutes or so, it has
bubbled up and is easily removed with a putty knife.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 6:56 PM
To: Ted Cary
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: stripper
Ted Cary wrote:
>
> Hi Don; Is this Methylene Chloride type "refinisher" something like Kutsit?
> Ted
Ted,
Wish I could answer properly. But I don't know what "Kutsit" uses.
Formbys I know is, and if it's still around, "Parks Refinisher" is.
Parks worked just as good as Formbys and at 1/2 the price. Others I'm
sure have MC in it, but theres no telling how much or little is in the
can.
Depending upon what you buy, it may end up as "trial and error". An
expensive way to learn. I agree with Graham about the "safe" strippers.
They are so safe they don't do the job.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 6:16 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: stripper
At 03:04 PM 10/14/98 -0700, Ted Cary wrote:
>
>Hey Donald; Enjoy reading your posts these many months. Since your in the
>furniture repair business, whats the best stripper for taking off
>polyurethane?? I've tried a few of them but without much success, or at
>least a lot of hard work. Ted Cary
The best stripper, as Don mentioned is one that contains methelene cloride,
among other nasties. The best brand I've tried is called BIX. However, I
walked into my local ACE the other day and got two can of their brand. It
was labeled as "heavy duty" - get the paste type. Anyway, it worked just
as well as BIX, only a lot cheaper.
Be sure to wear rubber gloves AND safety glasses.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 9:39 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: stripper
Joe Johns wrote:
> was labeled as "heavy duty" - get the paste type. Anyway, it worked just
> as well as BIX, only a lot cheaper.
It might be interesting to note, that "Paste Type" or "Heavy Duty" is
often only the adding of "Wax". The wax gives the stripper more body,
prevents quick evaporation, and increases the viscosity so that vertical
areas can be done more easily.
In what I do, "Wax" is an enemy which I can do without.
Also noteworthy, is that there is a large difference between a
"refinsher" and a "stripper" eg. Strippers need to be neutralized for
best results, Refinishers do not; Strippers take out more of the
original stain, Refinishers leave some; Strippers require more sanding
than Refinishers; Both remove Nitrocellulose Lacquers, Old type Varnish
and Shellac, good; Refinishers cost more than Strippers.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 12:47 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: stripper
Joe and Don,
Same thing here in Portland. Refinishers are pretty expensive, and most of
the strippers (specially the heavy duty ones)look pretty cheap.
Gary
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 3:41 PM
To: tcary at magicnet.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: stripper
Ok, my 4 bits.
In September, 1997, the Woodworkers Club of Houston had a guest speaker (as
we try do do every month...) who was(is) a professional refinisher. Now, I
myself missed that meeting (which I try not to do every month). But, one of
the questions asked was what to use to remove polyurethane.
The answer, a product called SKIM. It is put out by Charles Paint Research
Co.. I called one of our local suppliers and he seemed to think it was
available just about anywhere (nationally).
The product is designed to remover wallpaper, but will remove poly and paint
as well. I do not know if it is methylene chloride based or not. It is
sold by the pint, quart, gallon and 5 gallons.
(Standard disclaimers go here).
Todd Burch, Houston Texas.
Also, he mentioned these little tidbits:
- to remove stains from Oak, use Efferdent and peroxide (where was this last
week?)
- to cut dovetails, soak the ends in water for a couple minutes prior to
cutting, it makes the cutting easier
- To obtain an old fashioned brown stain, soak Magnolia leaves in a Copper
vessel. Adding a bit of talcum powder to the stain helps keep the grain
down
- Use Vernax as a leather treatment
- A clever stain is made from freeze dried coffee
From: Bill Moore [bmoore at micron.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Sun Darkening wood
A current thread on the list has mentioned 'Sun darkening'.
I've experienced this with a number of different kinds of
wood, and like the effects very much. However, here in
N. Idaho our allotment of sunshine is pretty unpridictable,
especially in the winter.
Has anyone attempted this artificially? I'm wondering if
one of those 300 or 500 watt halogen worklights placed
a few feet from the wood might have enough ultra-violet
(assuming it's the UV component of the light that's doing it).
--
------------------------------------------------
- Bill Moore 208.773.1317 -
- Post Falls, Idaho bmoore at micron.net -
------------------------------------------------
From: Horstman, B. Dean [DHorstman at HEWM.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 1:25 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Sunhill Bandsaw
I find myself needing some advice. Well, what I actually need is a good
bandsaw but that's what led me to this plea.
Our local paper has a used Sunhill 20" resaw bandsaw that originally sold
for $1850 for $700. I have heard both good and bad about Sunhill (made in
Taiwan) but it looks like it could be a good saw with a little work.
My biggest question is can you set this puppy up with a narrow blade and
maybe change the guides to do "regular" bandsawing or is this a dedicated
resaw only job.
I have been saving my pennies for a good used delta or jet but they seem to
get snatched up faster than I can get to them. :-(
If any of you guys or gals have had any experience with Sunhill I would
appreciate any info you could throw my way.
Thanks!
Dean Horstman - Seattle
Ps.....The same guy was selling a Unisaw with Unifence and attached router
table and router for $850. Lost that one by two hours. Rats!
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 4:34 PM
To: Horstman, B. Dean
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sunhill Bandsaw
Horstman, B. Dean wrote:
>
> I find myself needing some advice. Well, what I actually need is a
> My biggest question is can you set this puppy up with a narrow blade and
> maybe change the guides to do "regular" bandsawing or is this a dedicated
> resaw only job.
Usually, converting something leads to problems. The re-saw band saw was
engineered for wide blades as you noted, roughly 2". The wheels would
also be wide to accomodate that width blade. By merely changing the
guides, which I doubt that Sunhill would have, and running narrower
blades, you could be letting yourself in for unknown tracking problems.
$700.00 can buy you a lot of Bandsaw made to do the jobs you will work
with most.
---
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 8:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Sunhill Bandsaw
Dean,
Have you seen the saw or just read the ad?
If you've seen the saw ...have you looked at the wheels carefully? What
kind of guides? How old is the bandsaw? Is it a dedicated resaw
machine, which is very unlikely, or just a larger bandsaw meant for
normal cutting as much as Resaw?
My guess, without seeing it, is that it is just a 20" Bandsaw. Tracking
may be a tad finicky at times but you should be able to use blades down
to 1/2, sometimes 1/4. Even a Sunhill, if in good working order, would
be a steal at $700. I wouldn't miss it but first try finding out why
it's offered so cheap.
If you have seen that machine or are going to see it, compare to the
following picture:
http://www.sunhillnic.com/hb500.htm
That's the 20 Sunhill carries today. It's a typical 20" bandsaw, not
just for resawing. Happens to sell for $1,850! Just from the pic, I
can hazard the guess that the quality looks like middle-road for such
machine but not bad. These guides will have no problems with small
blades, in fact look at what's on it now.
Frederik
From: Jeff Anderson [jeffa at worldaccessnet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 11:56 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Supplier for Table Equalizer Slides
Hello,
I'm making a dining room table and need to find a supplier for table equalizer slides. The equalizer slides are the ones with the gears in the middle that when you pull on half the table the other half moves away. I am hoping to build a large table that has four 12" leaves in it, so I need slides that can open 48" wide. I have found 36" slides at Rockler Woodworking (the old "The Woodworkers Store") and at Woodworkers hardware but none larger than that.
Woodworker's hardware said their supplier is a "Walter of Walbash" located somewhere in Washington state, they didn't have a phone number and I can't find one. Has anyone heard of these guys?
Thanks for you help.
Jeff Anderson
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 5:03 PM
To: Jeff Anderson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Supplier for Table Equalizer Slides
Jeff,
Garrett Wade, http://www.garrettwade.com/ I have listed as (once) having
the size you need.
Walter of Wabash is located in Wabash Indiana. But don't waste your
money calling them. They would be happy to sell you 25-100 or 1000, not
1 or 2 pair.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 5:29 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Supplier for Table Equalizer Slides
I'm not sure either of these companies sell retail but they may refer
you to someone who does.
B. Walter & Co.
P.O. Box 278
Wabash IN 46992
Phone: 2195632181
Fax: (219)563-6301
or:
Waterville Woodcraft
525 Principle N.
Waterville, Quebec
Canada JOB 3HO
Tel: 819.837.2922
Fax: 819.837.2698
http://www.componentseast.com/Waterville.html
Keith Bohn
From: Paul Aud [pgaud0 at pop.uky.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:49 PM
To: Kip Yeager; Woodworking
Subject: Supporting local shops (was HD)
>Fact of the matter is WE get what WE pay for. If we buy Porter Cable from
>Porter Cable (or an authorized distributor) we would probably purchase
>quality... but we can buy Black & Decker from Walmart - and argue with the
>manager about the price, no less - and the result is we all get "CHEAP"
>because no one can afford to compete anymore because we are all arguing
>about already "CHEAP" prices for already "CHEAP" merchandise!!
Quite Right Kip!!
"They" are NOT our enemies!!
Well put, we want tools, they want money. They have tools, we have (some)
money.
Supply and demand, it is a mutual relationship. Without them we would
probably have a lot less tools and without us they wouldn't exist.
>>The people at Hurst Annaho will appreciate the business--a store
>>like that, which is in a building approximately the same size as
>>the tool corral at even a moderate Home Depot, can use all the
>>business we're willing to send its way.
I agree, but why not just go to them first. Small hometown stores seem to
consistantly give better service. If I am financially able, I support the
local stores before the national chains. I get much better service in the
local stores, and feel that more of my money is going to make a difference
where I live as opposed to making a CEO of a distant company rich. I
understand that sometimes economy forces us to try and pry every dollar off
the price of our tools, but isn't personal attention worth something?
There is a local store about 5 minutes walking distance from where I live.
They have a LOT of magazines and books, but they also sell tools and wood.
The owner and his helper are knowledgeable and helpful. I go there anytime
I want to see a tool in person, or to research through books or magazines.
I always feel welcome, even though I usually don't buy anything. They
answer all my questions and refer to different stores if they don't have
it. They never treat me with disdain despite my age and low purchasing
history. Although I could then catch a ride across town and buy my tools
at a national chain, I feel that the attention and service provided to me
by the small store more than adequately makes up for the slight increase in
prices. For those who think that I am loaded with money and spouting
because I don't understand financial difficulties, back off. I am the
youngest of eight from a family with only my dad working. I am putting
myself through college right now and deciding to support the local store
means the difference between a nice dessert, and just a meal. A lot of
people gripe about service, but don't support the few stores who try to
give it to them.
For what it's worth,
Paul Aud (studying in Kentucky and eagerly awaiting the end of next week ;^)
From: Ken Mugrage [ken at netadventure.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 1:14 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: RE: Supporting local shops (was HD)
Wow, a bit of deja vu here when I saw the new subject line given to this
thread. I'm brand new on this list, but in my job running an internet
company I've had exposure to quite a few. One of the busiest lists we host
is about Tole & Decorative Painting, something that I didn't think was
related to woodworking at all until this thread came up.
What's amazing about this, is the similarity of the discussion. This exact
thread is repeated every few months, substituting Michael's for HD. I think
my opinion pretty much is as follows.
I will always spend a -few- extra dollars supporting my local shops. Being
primarily a consultant by trade, I value good advice above just about all
else. When I buy a tool from my small local hardware store (which has an OSH
right across the street from it), the store owner is always happy to explain
the ins and outs of using it right. In my limited woodworking experience,
nothing is more important to the quality of my finished product then knowing
how to use the tools properly, including the quality of the tool.
To me the key for a local shop's success in the world of price slashing
giants is value added services. If you have a medium size work area, run a
few classes every month. I'll happily pay you $40 to be 1 of 10 people in a
hour long hands on course. You can recover some of your lost margin, and I
can be a better woodworker. -Show- me how to use my RAS safer and more
effectively. Don't just tell me what direction to move the wood against my
router, -show- me. Better yet, let my wife come in and learn to use the
scroll saw a year after I bought it so she can cut her own wood for
painting.
I think these rules are true for any small business trying to compete with
the guy that buys his stock cheaper, and has more money for advertising.
Ken
P.S. The tole painting list is at http://www.tolenet.com/ if anyone is into
that kind of thing.
From: Gene in Cincinnati [gene851 at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:12 PM
To: SSUG-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Surface Planers
I am looking into purchasing a surface planer. I have narrowed it down to the Delta 12 1/2" and the Dewalt 12
1/2" models. Which one would be a better buy? Is the Dewalt worth the additional dollars? Which one gives a
better cut, and least snipe? Another factor I'm looking into is which one is the easiest to change the blades?
Any opinions from those of you that have experience with these planers would be appreciated. Thanks for you
opinions.
gene
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 3:29 PM
To: Gene in Cincinnati
Cc: SSUG-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Surface Planers
I wish I had the answers to your questions before I
bought the Delta 12 1/2" planer. I don't know what you mean
by "surface." So far I am pleased with the Delta.
From: Daniel A. Segel [daniels at netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 7:33 AM
To: Gene in Cincinnati; SSUG-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Surface Planers
I've had the DeWalt for a couple of months now, and I've run about 200 bd
ft of oak and cherry through it. Haven't changed the blades yet.
My impressions: It's the noisiest power tool I own. It generates a huge
amount of chips. It produces a great surface and doesn't snipe if you're
careful about how you set it up and feed the wood through it.
Why did I buy the DeWalt over the Delta? Well, in my research at the time
via dejanews and in various forums I found slightly more people preferred
it than the Delta. Also, I've seen many more reports of problems with the
Delta (belts, gears, other moving parts failing). And in my case it didn't
really cost any more - I paid $343 because of a Home Depot price matching
guarantee.
There are a lot of opinions as to which one has a better locking mechanism,
or whether disposable blades are a better value than resharpenable ones.
But I've yet to see any scientific evidence that either one is better than
the other. As with any tool, it seems as though people have a need to
interpret different methods of accomplishing the same thing as "better" or
"worse".
As I have discussed in this forum before, I also tend to discount magazine
reviews that draw conclusions based on a single sample of a tool.
What does this all mean? I truly believe they are both great products for
the money. Buy whichever one feels better to you and seems to offer the
best value for the money.
Daniel
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:13 AM
To: Daniel A. Segel
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Surface Planers
Daniel A. Segel wrote:
> or whether disposable blades are a better value than resharpenable ones.
> But I've yet to see any scientific evidence that either one is better than
> the other.
There's more than possible scientific evidence, there's actual
indisputable fact!
Disposable blades are made with a higher quality and or higher hardness
steel giving several times (5 I believe) the performance of softer steel
knives.
This obviously is because there is no need to use softer steels when the
blade will not be sharpened. Whether all mfrs of disposable blades use
that technology or not, is anyones guess. But I do know that Powermatics
disposable blade technology is exactly that.
Do they really last longer? Yes they do, and without chipped knives too!
> Daniel A. Segel
> daniels at netcom.com
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:33 PM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Surface Planers
Gerald,
I bought a Ryobi 10" planer about 10 years ago. I have lusted after a
jointer most of that time. I still don't have one. I have used the planer
as much for thicknessing as anything. Sometimes I "resaw" using my table
saw, then take the stock down to the desired thickness with the planer.
When I'm dealing with warped stock, I use a jig I made years ago to run it
thru my TS, my router table, or clutch it next to my workbench,and use a
jack plane on it. I still want a jointer, but I have nice jointer planes.
What I *will* have within 10 days is a bandsaw. I use about 40% recycled
wood. I victimize old furniture, pallets, someone else's work of art, or
anything that has the wood I want. The bandsaw seems more important to me
at this point. I guess we all prioritize our rationalizations differently.
Gary
From: AG Kesmetis [aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:13 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Switch
Folks,
I'm going to build Norm's router table. I've ordered parts from Rockler and
Garrett Wade and I just got back from HD for the electrical parts. The only
thing I can't find is the switch. In the plans they list it as a
Switch-Furnas Cat#12BA21T
They say they bought it from the local hardware or electrical supply store.
>From the plans it looks like it's the typical machinery switch with a green
rectangle button for "on" and a red rectangle button for "off". I checked
with the electrical guy at HD and he couldn't help. I checked my new
Grainger catalog but can't find it in there either. Anybody have an on-line
source for this? Or any other suggestions.
Thanks,
AG Kesmetis
Lowell, MA
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/aaron-woodsman/index.html
25 minutes north of Boston
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 8:07 PM
To: aaron-woodsman at mediaone.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Switch
I have built and USE the same router table with a few modifications which I'm
very proud of. I changed the left set of drawers to be actual drawers not bit
storage. I could not imagine ever filling up 7 bit storage drawers. Great
set of plans otherwise.
Now for your switch. As near as I could figure that is a bad model number for
the switch. I went to a lot of very big electrical supply houses locally and
could not find it. The were able to make a suggestion of a switch
for....Please sit down at this point....$95.00. So I called Jet Tools and
ordered the switch that operates my table saw. Same exact safety switch type
and it looks and feels great. Jet sent one out next day for something like
$13.00. E-mail me back if you need the part # and customer service # for the
Jet switch.
Good WWking.
From: Jon Lang [jml at snet.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 6:29 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Table for Delta CMS
I purchased a 10" Delta CMS several months ago and after tuning it properly have been pleased with it. Does anyone know of a source for plans for side support tables for a CMS? I was cutting some miters in a 16 foot piece of base moulding this weekend and had to go track down my neighbor to act as a support table. He had other more important things on his mind (Drinking beer, sitting on couch, gathering dust) and commented that I should build a support table to deal with long pieces of lumber / moulding. The rub is that I would like this/these table(s) to fold as I have very limited space in my workshop. Any ideas?
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 7:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table for Delta CMS
I use collapsible roller tables made by HTC for this very purpose. Grizzly,
amongst many others, is a retailer for them.
John
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:17 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table for Delta CMS
You could build a real nice table with two base cabinets set apart the
width of the saw and a shorter cabinet in between, The height of the
shorter cabinet would depend on the height of the saw table. If you
need to go to a DIY and see how their cabinets are constructed. I
would make some fold down extension tops at each end and put it on
casters.
Keith Bohn
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 3:33 PM
To: Jon Lang
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table for Delta CMS
It's not uncommon at small or medium production cabinet shops to see
tablesaws surrounded on 3 sides with tables. They do this to make the
handling of sheet goods easier. Their other option is a sliding table.
There should be no problem in making one up yourself, but it sounds like
space would prevent that.
Instead you might consider making a roller stand as in DeChristoforos
books. It is intended for exactly the problem you had and doesn't have a
footprint of more than 2 sq ft.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 9:25 PM
To: Duke of URLs
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table saw blues
Keith and all;
At the mention of the Mule Accusquare Fence I request the soap box for a
couple of minutes to just tell everyone of two of its' details that you
should all know about. This information comes from first hand knowledge
of the product as displayed at three woodworking shows held in Halifax
N.S. over the last three years. I was an exhibitor at two of the shows
and the first year watched the Mule fence demo for some time. These
points are based on what was being shown in Halifax up until Nov. 1997.
They may have made revisions since then. I will know after Nov. 15.
1. The head and "blade" of the T-Square of the Mule are connected by
three bolts in sloppy holes. Adjustability is via these three sloppy
holes and the pieces are kept together by tightening the bolts to "red
faced tight". A machinist in Alberta said that this was an extremely
poor way to indicate the tightening of a bolt and in fact could mean the
bolt has been destroyed. I agree.
My fence, the Precision 50, has this joint bolted and pinned together so
it can not move and adjustment is via set screws at the ends of the head
of the T-Square. The Biesemeyer and several other fences use the same
configuration of adjustability. It is a precise method to make small
increments of change and progress toward the final setting without
loosing progress toward that point on the way.
2. In the Mule the hairline carrier is bolted to the underside of the
tube by a single bolt in another sloppy hole. Access to that bolt is
only possible by removing the fence and making the adjustment and
tightening the bolt and putting the fence back on to see if the
adjustment is satisfactory. If not, do it over until you are happy.
In the case of my fence the hairline is carried on an aluminum sub base
with two slots which are countersunk to accept flat head machine screws
so adjustment is extremely easy and the fence does not have to be
removed from the saw to make this adjustment.
I contend that if the Mule ever gets accurately zeroed in it is never
adjusted again if one changes from a thin kerf to regular kerf blade
since it is so difficult to make this adjustment but the operator just
eyeballs the variation. IMO (and Donald W will disagree) this is a
major benefit. If one gets a Starrett hip tape to go with the Starrett
self adhesive tape I provide there is no question of accuracy between
the two tapes because they come from the same plant in the USA and
Starrett don't compromise accuracy.
If any Mule owners are out there who take exception to my points I would
appreciate hearing from them privately. Does the Mule price quoted
below include shipping anywhere in the lower 48? Mine does.
Now I will get down of the soap box and I thank you all.
Harvey Freeman
> I'm currently in the same boat as you on this one. That's me at the
> tiller by the way. Anyway, it was my thinking to build two cabinets
> to flank my saw, a vintage 8" Rockwell/Delta/Homecraft and build a new
> top with a cutout with the saw table sitting flush. Really it ends up
> looking like a router table on steroids. For the fence I'll probably
> go with Harvey Freeman's Precision 50 or the Mule Accusquare. The
> Precision 50 retails for $165 U.S. and the Mule goes for $199. Of
> course the whole thing will be on casters.
>
> E-mail me your street address and I'd be happy to send a drawing of
> what I have in mind for my saw. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch
> to alter the dimensions to work for your set up.
>
> Keith Bohn
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 6:43 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Table Saw Fences
For those folks who're tossing decision of which TS fence to purchase, I
suggest thumbing through the current issue of FW. The article essentially
says to buy a Biesemeyer (no surprise there), however it does cover some of
the other brands and I can see where it would be very informative to folks
not familiar with any of them. One maker's review that surprised me was
Crapsman's Extact-I-Rip - there may be hope for them yet.
So, rush down to your local Barnes & Noble, sit in one of their comfy
chairs and read all about it!
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:39 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences
It's a nice article but I found it incomplete as in not all fences
were shown. I can understand the may have been cramped for editorial
space but they could have listed all makers in a side bar.
Keith Bohn
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:32 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences
Wood mag. had a review abt. issue 96 I think. About the same result.
But good reading because some designs do some things a little better
than others so depending on what's important to you, your preference
will differ. The "Exact-I-Rip" did well, and is on the Rigid saws at
HD still.
Jim
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 11:22 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences
One obvious fence they missed was the Precision 50 from out very own Harvey
Freeman... All reports I have seen were very favorable... and the price
beats the others cold.
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 3:50 PM
To: Moose and Betty
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences
I have owned the exact-I-Rip fence since last xmas and really do like
it. I made some modifications, like moving the left cast iron extension
to the right side, then put the fence rails on, since I prefer the wide
part of my materials that I am cutting to be on the right side.It can be
alittle touchy aligning it square with the blade (measure twice, cut
once) but after locked down it is very stable. Now if I can find the
time to build a sliding panel cuttter to put on the left side. Oh
well,too many ideas, not enough time.
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 6:16 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Table Saw Fences,Sears,Rigid & HD
Once upon a time during the mid to late eighties I was told by my boss
to buy a cheap bandsaw for our field crew to lug around. I went to
our vendor, who by the way was a commercial outlet, and based on price
only I bought a Jet. I ended up putting it together and let me tell
you I've never seen such a piece of junk in my life. It couldn't hold
a candle to even the lowliest Craftsman. For years this was burned in
my memory. I saw Jet and immediately moved on. Around two years ago
I ended up online and my head was spinning over the gushing going on
about Jet. What happened? Jet wanted to compete and put up what was
necessary to do so.
It's my theory that Ridgid in an effort to bring product to market has
used some nice paint and graphics to reintroduce the Craftsman line
for the Home Depot customers. There have been press releases stating
they are there to compete with Delta and Jet. The only way they can
do this is to do some serious upgrades. These upgrades couldn't be
implemented fast enough to keep the line making Craftsman products.
What I'm saying is they could take a page from Jet's book and
implement this over time.
What makes me suspect that this will never come to pass is the
retailer they have picked to carry their line. Home Depot is there to
sell "stuff" and make money. They sell stuff and make their money
from people who arrive via turnip truck and don't know better. "It's
a Ridgid and it has a life time warranty, it must be good!" Most of
these people have the same opinion of Craftsman tools.
Only time will tell.
Keith Bohn
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:07 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Tablesaw angle revisited.
Sorry to keep harping on this subject but I was wondering if anyone has
tried the "Guage It" saw guage as picture on page 34 of the Jan/'98
Woodcraft catalogue?
TIA
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 1:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Talking to Liberon
I had been looking for a good finishing oil for some outdoor furniture and
it seems that Liberon Finishing oil was the thing. They have a factsheet on
their website www.liberon.com about how good etc it is for exterior use
including garden furniture. Its based on Tung oil after all - the stuff the
ancient chinese navy waterproofed their ships with.
So I ordered some stuff, Liberon finishing oil, sanding sealer, some 0000
wire wool and my order came today. Imagine my surprise when it said on my 1
litre tin of finishing oil - 'for internal use only' - (perhaps that should
read interior use - I don't want you to think I'm going to drink it....)
So i gave their hotline a bell (I telephoned them) and spoke to a technical
guy who said I must have the new tin. Sure enough I had. Apparently Liberon
Finishing Oil - (can I say LFO instead of Liberon Finishing Oil because
Liberon Finishing Oil is such along phrase....) - thats LFO for short
meaning Liberon Finishing Oil is now not recommended for outdoor use. But
why I said, it always was.
Anyway it seems they have been taken to task because one wood - American
White Oak - still goes black no matter what you put on it. Not that anyone
uses imported American white oak around here, but a description is a
description. All other woods including regular and old oak is fine. They
didn't mind changing the writing on the tin because they are inventing a
new exterior Liberon Finishing Oil - or ELFO - for short. (ELFO?) Perhaps
people will be painting garden elfs (or elves) and other elven or elfen
folk with it.
So to make a short story very long, the prototype, and several later types
or versions of the new oil did not measure up in tests to the existing
Liberon Finishing Oil. Thus Liberon is fine for everything except elf like
American white oak fanatics.
Just thought you might be interested.....
PS he did warn me not to use sanding sealer externally, even on elves,
gnomes and/or goblins.
Happy Haloween
Ray
www.ipw.com/lochness
www.ipw.com/cyprus
From: Julie Graf [jgraf at cimedia.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:08 AM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: That Floyd Wright Guy
FYI-
Interesting FLW article/webpage with links and info about fallingwater -
http://www.realpittsburgh.com/entertainment/feature/98/11/10/index.html
also has link to great PBS website where you might be able to get info relating
to the early "exploits"
From: Stan Schmidt [stanedit at pclink.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:44 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: That Floyd Wright Guy
The Star Tribune interviewed some folks who worked with FLW earlier this
week. These folks disagree with PBS' portrayal of Wright as a genius with a
flawed and tragic life. They agree with the genius, not the tragic.
http://www2.startribune.com/cgi-bin/stOnLine/article?thisSlug=flwvar
There's also a link to the FLW Foundation.
Stan Schmidt
stanedit at pclink.com
14411 Ranch Road
Elk River, MN 55330
612-241-9643
From: Allen Knack [aknack at voyager.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:46 PM
To: Sharon Bannister; The Oak List
Subject: Re: That's it, I'm making my own!
Sharon,
I remember seening some hardware someware, but for the life of me I can't
find where. Probly through out the magaznie. One thought on the seat. I
have had several oak ones and they all split. My mother bought one and
her's is holding up fine. The differance between her's and mine is teh glue
up. On the failed units all the boards were glued parallel like a table
top. Then the set was cut out. Her was glued up in a square shape. Much
stronger. I think the butt to edge joint ( no comments please :-)) was
those V style finger joints used to splice boards together.
Al
Big al on the irc
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon Bannister <captain at silcom.com>
To: The Oak List <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 9:57 AM
Subject: That's it, I'm making my own!
>Hi kids!
>OK, so I decided that it would be very cool to keep the 1960 wall
>hanging toilets when doing the flood repairs (yep, still at it!)...
>except one of them is sunflower yellow, which I'm sure was a very nice
>touch in the 60's but not now. I've had it re-glazed and it is now
>almond. Here's the problem, I can't find a replacement for the broken
>seat. The bolts to connect to the bowl sit 10" oc and standard is 6".
>Plus it is a funky shape. I still have "old Yeller" to use as a guide
>so I've decided to make my own (those lucite ones with the pennies just
>wouldn't look right)
>
>I have already decided that grain direction is important, but I can't
>find the hardware needed for the bolts anywhere. Short of buying a
>regular seat and lid and throwing that away after removing the hardware,
>I thought I'd ask here if anyone has made these before and had a source
>for seat hardware? Any pointers would also be appreciated since I have
>no idea what I'm doing (which has never stopped me before.)
>
>By the way, I highly recommend taking the toilet completely out of the
>bathroom and dismanteling it in the front yard for cleaning... much
>easier and better results! : )
>
>See Ya
>Sharon
>
>
>
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 6:54 PM
To: Allen Knack
Cc: The Oak List
Subject: Re: That's it, I'm making my own!
Thanks Allen,
That's what I was talking about regarding grain. The front and back of the seat
need to have the grain run side to side and both sides have the grain running
front to back. Stronger all the way around (so to speak).
If you stumble across the hardware, that'd be great, I'm stuck on this one.
Thanks
Sharon
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:43 AM
To: Sharon Bannister; The Oak List
Subject: Re: That's it, I'm making my own!
Hi Sharon,
I know it is hard for a woodworker to make one's way to the
plumbing section of the local hardware store, or to a
(shudder) complete plumbing supplier. I usually take a
stiff drink of bourbon to help develop the courage to go
there.
Anyway, I have found that both places usually carry
replacement hardware for toilet seats in those blister packs
hanging on the hooks. This stuff is almost always plastic.
However, a good plumbing supplier has catalogs where he can
order the good stuff for you. I like the look of brass with
walnut stained oak.
The lid should be straight grained (wood of your choice)
from front to back, edge jointed with dowels, biscuits, or
my favorite.....a blind spline, almost the full length.
GrandPa's picture frame should be four pieces joined at a
reinforced miter joint (again I prefer a blind spline here,
too). The grain direction on the pieces for the back and
front should go left-right and the grain for the side pieces
should go front-back.
Use polyurethane glue for its waterproof qualities.
10Q,
Moose
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 3:16 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: The Auction and the worm
A couple of friends of ours told us about the auctions now being held in a
nearby town every Friday afternoon. They were looking for some nice
furniture since their house had burned down (remember, I told you). Anyway
they were bemoaning the fact that the furniture they wanted went for too
high a price, but it was still cheaper than store bought stuff. While they
moan, my evil woodworking brain steps up a gear. No I am not going to make
furniture for them....
You see, the way the auction works is that it is full of loads of junk with
some gems. They are no Sotheby's or Christies, this bunch, but more like
old house clearances, real estate clearouts and stuff like that. There are
three types of buyers. The antique dealers who spot something brilliant and
bid against each other into the thousands of pounds, then the furniture
dealers who buy mostly modern stuff they think they can sell on in their
furniture stores and the general public who 'know what they like' and bid
silly prices for it. Our friends come into that category. But there is
another category, me. And you guys.
Here, as you know, hardwood costs silly prices. 1x6 mahogany substitute,
nearly 2 UK pounds a foot. What? Forget it. It is too expensive to dare
saw. So I decide to recycle. There is some furniture at the sale that does
not even get bid for, or at least never reaches even five pounds. This
furniture is too old fashioned and/or ugly to be of interest to the general
public or the furniture dealers and too new to be of interest to the
antiques people. Even so it is usually made of hardwood of some kind and if
you have a box trailer (remember the trailer) you can carry it home. Haha!
And the price, well if no bid is received the autioneer will accept a token
one pound bid after the sale. I bought two sideboards, one oak and one
mahogany. One was six pounds and one was one pound. (I learn fast).
I also bought six boxes of books for six pounds and an real and working
bakelite Avometer for eight pounds. Total 21 UKP. Ho hum.
On arriving home in torrential rain (I had a cover for the sideboards
though) I found that we had a hitchiker in the oak. A wee worm. A woodworm.
It was only in the thin board back of the oak sideboard so we burned that
on the fire and had a few meagre calories of warmth into the bargain -
welcome on a braw wet night.
So while I wait for lunch and Norm (he's on Discovery channel at midday) I
decided to tell you all this story in case their is an auction somewhere
near you.......
Now, where's that chainsaw?
Ray
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 10:45 AM
To: entrepreneur at enterprise.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The Auction and the worm
I do the same thing here. At times you can get fairly beat up furniture
that is not very good quality for hardly anything. But, the drawer side
are very stable now, and sometimes have nice wood in them. So they
become drawer sides for me. Of course, you really should evaluate if th
piece has any use or can be fixed, many times they can't. And also be
sure to check the wood quality before bidding it up.
In fact just last week I bought about 20 drawers (just drawers, no
other stuff with them) for $22 at an auction. 10 of the drawers were
over 4 ft long, and 8 inches high, and made of 5/4 maple (go figure!),
the others were all of oak and very nicely done, they go into my new
drawer system under my bench.
Around here, farm auctions are the place to find these things.
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 4:26 AM
To: cring at concentric.net
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The Blade
At 18:28 06/10/98 -0600, C.E.(Chuck)Ring wrote:
>Ray,
>All three messages came through. Hope you won't think I'm a wiseguy, but I
>tried one of those negative kerf blades and there was no sawdust. Did you
mean
>negative rake?
Yes I did, sorry for the confusion, so, is it a triple chip negative rake
blade?
Ray, got it right at last I hope
>Chuck
>
>Ray Berry wrote:
>>
>> Is this WWII blade a triple chip negative kerf blade?
>>
>> Ray
>>
>> PS I am having trouble sending this, it keeps bouncing off the list, so
>> apologies if it gets through twice.
>
>--
>C.E.(Chuck) Ring
>Edgewood, New Mexico USA
>http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
>http://www.woodworking.org
>
>
From: Eirrehs at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 8:47 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: The king bed frame
Has anyone built a bed frame for a king size bed? If so how did you
accommodate the two box-springs? Did you use a center support or just large
cross pieces?
A blessing on your first born
Alan W
Turlock California
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 9:17 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The king bed frame
Allen,
I've made a couple. On one I left the bed installed on the metal frame that
originally came with the mattresses and just made a surround with side rails,
headboard and footboard. No weight on the wooden frame. It works fine with no
problems.
On the other I used 1/2" plywood or wafer board pieces with "lap joints" so that
the pieces fit together at 90 degrees. Three or four of these placed
strategically within the space will support the mattresses. This method also
does not rely on the bed frame (head and foot boards and side rails) to support
any of the weight. Some 1/2" or even 3/4" plywood cut to size and placed over
the "grids" will prevent any sagging which might otherwise occur.
You could use slats supported in the middle, but if you don't mind that the bed
frame is NOT supporting the mattresses the two method above will work fine.
Chuck
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
Eirrehs at aol.com wrote:
>
> Has anyone built a bed frame for a king size bed? If so how did you
> accommodate the two box-springs? Did you use a center support or just large
> cross pieces?
>
> A blessing on your first born
>
> Alan W
> Turlock California
--
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:47 AM
To: Eirrehs at aol.com
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The king bed frame
Eirrehs at aol.com wrote:
>
> Has anyone built a bed frame for a king size bed? If so how did you
> accommodate the two box-springs? Did you use a center support or just large
> cross pieces?
>
> A blessing on your first born
>
> Alan W
> Turlock California
Judging by what few all wood Kings we've had to repair, using a only
center support running from footboard to headboard is not as strong or
rigid as attaching cross pieces to the center support as well.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Richard Bienvenu [histzut at showme.missouri.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 11:34 AM
To: woodworking list
Subject: The New American Woodworker: Reactions?
I just received the "February" issue of AMWoodworker and wondered if anyone
out there has any reactions to the mag under its new ownership and
editorial staff. As far as I can tell, it looks pretty much the same--and
they've kept Tech Tips (one of my favorites) without fooling around with
the artwork.
Surprise of the issue: The bestbuy 12" CMS (which they--misleading call in
my opinion call a chop saw) was the $309 Craftsman. Is Sears really trying
to redeem itself, as some have suggested? For those who don't get the mag
but are interested in a CMS, the Makita LS1220 was the "editors' choice."
Richard Bienvenu
P.S._Now_ I learn (after having bought a 10" Delta last summer) that the
pistol grip is a "con" feature. Makes sense, however, when you think of the
ergonomics involved. Oh, well.
From: Rick Christopherson [waterfront-woods at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 11:59 PM
To: Richard Bienvenu; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The New American Woodworker: Reactions?
Actually, issue 71 was written by the former staff of AW, but printed in
Minneapolis. Not only will Tech Tips not be killed, but it is going to get
bigger than it already is. I believe the same contributing editor is going to
continue to handle Tech tips in the future as well. I will be covering the more
detailed tips section of "Shop Solutions", but will probably end up overseeing
the Tech Tips on the side.
The Q&A is also going to get larger and more detailed too. When ever possible
or applicable, we will try to use photography to help explain some of these
issues. I haven't seen the pictures yet, but there should be a really cool one
in issue 72 showing the cross section of a nailer blowout. The reason why this
is so cool, is because it is a real blowout, it shows the concept beautifully,
and it was my first attempt to do a cross-sectional cut down in the shop. I
didn't think I could create one and cut the wood away to reveal it. I'll let
you figure out how I did it without destroying the saw blade after you see the
issue.
I am tentatively thinking about a tool review on random orbit sanders for issue
74. This is a topic which hasn't been covered in AW for several years (back
when ROS's were still pretty new), and people seem to be buying these more
frequently than other tools. I have barely begun to even plan this one yet, but
I am always open to input from woodworkers about what they feel is important
testing criteria. After all, you guys are the ones buying the tools.
Because I am going to be doing the tool tests starting with issue 73, they are
going to be more in-depth than they have been in the past. For example, I will
be performing benchmark-type tests on plate joiners this week at home (we have
the week off), but then next week, we will have a panel of woodworkers come in
to examine other aspects of the tools. For example, I am kicking around a
scientifically-based method to qualitatively examine ROS sander performance in
terms of swirl marks. This may or may not fly, but I am not going to ignore it
on the basis that it is too difficult.
Rick Christopherson
Associate Editor
American Woodworker Magazine
From: MCG [mcg at pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 9:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: The Router Workshop
There is this show on PBS called the router workshop. Any of you guys
seen it? I was wondering if it was worth taping, and whether they
explain how to maximize use of a router. If not this show, can you guys
recommend another tape that wont bust my budget? thanks
From: Trace Sutton [hsutton at atlcom.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 3:19 AM
To: MCG; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The Router Workshop
I just discovered it also (comes on at 6:30 a.m. Saturdays in my market).
The first one I saw was making box joints with a ready made jig. It was
pretty interesting. Seems worth the price of a tape to record it. For
someone who hasnt used a router for much more than edge routing it gives me
some good visuals of how other things are done. They also have a web site
at http://www.routerworkshop.com/.
regards,
Trace
From: Keith Ford [kcford at airmail.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 7:17 AM
To: MCG
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The Router Workshop
I tape the show and watch it, but I find it annoying. They do EVERYTHING
with a router, even when I think another tool might be easier. But, the
intent of the show is to show you how to do things with a router. The
other thing I find annoying is their very extensive use of jigs. Jigs
are great and essential in many cases, but many of their jigs would be a
project within themselves. That is fine if you are going to make
multiple copies of a project, but a lot of trouble if you intend to
build only one of a project. Some of the jigs are univerval in nature,
but some are unique to the project. Bottom line - the show is very good
at teaching you to do almost anything with a router.
From: Richard J. Keough [dickkeough at juno.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 1:07 PM
To: kcford at airmail.net
Cc: mcg at pacbell.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: The Router Workshop
I have watched this show and it's O K. Keep in mind that they are
selling those jigs that they use along with the table and many other
items which are covered in their news letter.
From: Mack Neff [mneff at muscanet.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:25 PM
To: TheOak
Subject: Thinning Varnish
I'm trying to take my finishing skills to a new level of quality, but
when I brush varnish it seems to be too thick to get it to flow nicely.
Do you folks thin it at all and if so, how much?
Mack Neff
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:29 PM
To: Mack Neff
Cc: TheOak
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Mack Neff wrote:
>
> I'm trying to take my finishing skills to a new level of quality, but
> when I brush varnish it seems to be too thick to get it to flow nicely.
>
> Do you folks thin it at all and if so, how much?
>
> Mack Neff
Before you thin the Varnish which should flow out soon "after" you brush
it on, is the temperature and what you are varnishing within limits? Are
you using a varnish brush? Is it old? Is this a new can or partially
used? How long is the varnish taking to dry? Did it seem to stir okay?
Does the can small sour? Have you ever varnished and not had that
problem?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:14 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Mack, I find that sanding the first coat with 400 grit sandpaper and
subsequent coats with 600 and finer greatly improves the smoothness. If
you're using a water base, you may be getting grain raising which will give
the finish small ridges. If this is the case, then you can wipe the wood
surface with a damp sponge before finishing, allow it to dry and then
lightly sand with 320 or 400 grit. This will remove the small wood fibers
that absorb water and swell (raising the grain). Sanding after the first
coat will help to smooth out any additional grain raising.
Also, 60s temps are a little low for varnish, maybe you can find a warmer
place to finish and see if that doesn't help the varnish to flow out better
and dry faster. The varnish should dry faster than "Days".
This is just a personal preference, but I don't like using a brush for
varnish. Instead I use a foam brush with wooden handle.
Rick McQuay
--
-----Original Message-----
From: Mack Neff <mneff at muscanet.com>
Cc: TheOak <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
>Temp of varnish and wood is in the 60's or more
>
>
>> How long is the varnish taking to dry?
>
>Days
>
>> Have you ever varnished and not had that problem?
>
>I think I've always had some dissatisfaction with how smooth the varnish
>was. This time I plan to go through the process of multiple coats and
>rubbing it out. I've never hand-rubbed a (wood) finish before.
>
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:44 AM
To: Mack Neff
Cc: TheOak
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Mack,
Sounds okay to me except for the dating, which is important. For your
own knowledge and forever more :-), call the mfr whose phone number
probably appears somewhere on the label. This will accomplish two
things. After reading the code date to them, you'll know more about
that, and two, they...knowing the chemical makeup of the product can
best advise how much and what kind of thinner.
The varnish should have dried reasonably well within 24 hours under
normal conditions. If the mfr says the product is still good, return it
or toss it and get a different brand. If you get a different brand, call
the mfr first this time.
10% thinning is a common practice, but I don't think thats the problem.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 6:47 AM
To: Mack Neff; TheOak
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Howdy Mack
Congratulations on trying to take your finishing skills up. Personally I
think that varnish/poly (they share the same application attributes) are the
most difficult finishes to apply for a fine finish and once you have a
handle on them you can apply about any commonly available finish with
confidence.
Since you've indicated that this is your first attempt at this finish I'm
going to blather on a bit on what I have found in applying varnish.
As others have already noted, 60 degrees is pushing it as far as temp goes.
The main ingredient of the finish is oil, and oil doesn't like to be cold.
As for application tools, I and as others have indicated, have had some luck
with foam brushes,though the neander in me prefers a regular brush. The
brush must be capable of holding a fair amount of the finish and letting it
flow evenly. This can't be accomplished with a synthetic brush. You will
need a natural hair brush. At the low end is the china bristle brushes and
at the high end is badger hair brushes. Since, despite the pain in the butt
it is to apply, varnish is one of my favorite finishes I'd suggest opting
for the badger hair brush in about a two incher.
If you are using a brush, your strokes must be slow, starting with the tip
of the brush then tilting it more and more down towards the wood as the
stroke continues. This keeps a steady flow of varnish flowing from the
brush. In placing the brush down on the surface and lifting it do it in the
same flowing motion and not just plunking the brush down or lifting it
straight off. When working near the edges make your application about an
1/16 of an inch from the edge. This should allow the varnish to flow to the
edge without having it pile up there or flow over the side.
I've never used any brand of varnish yet that does not need thinning for
fine finishing application. I will cut my first coat by 50% and use it as a
sealer coat if I have not already sealed the surface with a one pound cut of
shellac. This sealer coat will, In my opinion, cut some of the friction
between the wood and the brush and help you eliminate air bubbles. For all
other coats I will cut the finish by 15 per cent. Since varnish cures from
the top down this extra thinning will give any air trapped in or induced
into the varnish during application more time to escape, and these air
bubbles are on of the major pains in applying varnish. Slow strokes of the
bush, slow stirring of the finish, not shaking the can, not tapping the
brush to remove excess varnish all contribute to lessening the air bubbles
you will get in your finish. However, usually, air bubbles are next to
impossible to eliminate completely so follow up your application by tipping
off the finish. That is, holding your brush at 90 degrees to the surface and
very lightly and slowly running just the tip of the brush over the finish.
Any further working of the surface will probably leave you with brush marks.
I use 000 steel wool between every coat after the coat has dried overnight.
48 hours for the last coat and rubbing out the finish. Since varnish, unlike
shellac or lacquer, does not partially redissolve and blend with the
previous coat this is necessary to give the next coat some tooth to bite
into. It is also a step that is, to me, passed over too lightly by many.
Since any defects in the coat you are working on must be removed at that
time or it will be buried in subsequent coats and be near impossible to
remove, when rubbing with the steel wool (unless you are using water based
varnish, then never use steel wool), get the whole surface to a uniform
scratch pattern, NO shiny spots, no bubbles, no dust nubs etc.. before going
to the next step.
Besides bubbles you will find that dust is your next biggest problem. Under
ideal conditions it will take varnish an hour to cure enough so that every
bit of dust in a 10 mile radius isn't attracted to and stick to your finish,
and at least overnight before it is ready to be worked on again, Keep things
as dust free as possible an make sure you get any dust out when working with
the steel wool.
One last thing will be to never apply your varnish from your main container.
Always slowly pour the finish to a decanting container and never back to the
main supply. This will keep your brush from introducing anything to your
main supply and that supply pristine.
Now, once you are finished with all that you are ready for the rubbing out
process.
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 12:18 PM
To: Mack Neff; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Mack Neff sends:
>I'm trying to take my finishing skills to a new level of quality, but
>when I brush varnish it seems to be too thick to get it to flow nicely.
>
>Do you folks thin it at all and if so, how much?
>
>Mack Neff
I usually thin it 1:1 with mineral spirits (oil-based poly, naturally) and
apply it with a rubber like you'd apply French polish. A recent
Fine Woodworking has instructions on how to do this.
--jmowreader
"There's no such thing as only one rabbit."
--Hogan's Heroes
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:51 AM
To: Bruce Gowens
Cc: Rick A. McQuay; Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Thinning Varnish
Bruce:
Beings that you came out of the closet, so must I. In fact I even
get paid for using it. I have done a number of very expensive dinning
tables in poly. I use five to six coats. I sand between each coat.
Then after do that dirty deed, I rub it out so poeple do not know its
poly. By the way I never use anything finer that 220 until I do the
final rub out. When done it is a first class surface and extremely
durable.
Ken Martin
Newport News, VA where it is going to be 74 degrees today
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 1:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: This is not a repeat, I repeat, this is not a repeat
Gang,
In my quest for home made bleaching products, I received enough
help to make usable oxalic acid solutions.
There is less certainty about the sodium hydroxyde and oxygen
peroxyde solutions, a.k.a. "A" and "B" solutions. For the first
instance, most suggestions go toward a nearly saturated solution
of NaOH in distilled water at room temperature. For the
peroxyde, 20% per volume is the most common advice.
If I go this way, will I :
- blast myself out of this continuum ?
- fumigate all the roaches of the shop ?
- get milky white birch, maple and pine ?
Since there's even an aircraft carrier demagnetizer on the
list, we certainly also have a chemist. Are those concentrations
right ?
Thanks.
Jean Montambeault
Montr�al, Qu�bec,Canada
From: tlk at ntmicom-mx.micom.com on behalf of Todd L. Kindig [tlk at micom.com]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 12:34 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Tile countertops for my kitchen cabinets
I've about got all my new kitchen cabinets built, thanks to everyone for
all the tips on tools and methods.
Originally we were going to go with corian, but with quotes coming in
for $5k, it kinda defeats the purpose of me building the cabinets. So,
I've convinced SWMBO that new tile countertops, done by me is the way to
go.
My question:
anyone have any suggestions on what book(s) I should get that will
teach/show me how to do it :)
We've seen this new tile with almost 0 grout line, which should be
wonderful, but I've not a clue what/how to go about finishing/preparing
the tops of my cabinets or laying the tile.
I'm not worried, I didn't have a clue how to build the cabinets either
when I started, but they look marvelous, IMHO. :)
Thanks in advance,
TLK
-
Todd L. Kindig ------------- Unix was not designed to stop you from
mailto:tlk at micom.com ------- doing stupid things, because that would
http://www.micom.com ------- also stop you from doing clever things.
*The box said "Windows 95, Windows NT4.0 or better".. so I installed
Solaris*
From: kayak [kayak at one.net]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:02 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: tilting the band saw
Just curious, what are your personal opinions regarding band saws,
tilting head vs. tilting table?
Zane Harris
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:38 AM
To: kayak; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: tilting the band saw
Zane,
The only tilting head saw I've seen is a Craftsman. Your ordinary tilting
table bandsaw isn't known for precision. The Sears unit has a reputation
for *no* precision. It seems that it is a bit easier to maintain tolerances
when you're adjusting a table than when you're moving the whole saw.
There is an interesting comparison here with the table saw, but it is an
apples-oranges thing.
Gary Cavener
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 12:03 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Timberwolf blades...Was Wrong band or wrong bandsaw
I have been using these blades on my Delta bandsaw for the last year. Not that
I go through heaps of them, but they are hands down better than either Olsen or
Lennox blades both in how easy they cut right out of the box and how long they
stay sharp. The blades can be purchased from both Timberwolf or PSI Wood (I
think that is the correct name). However, they are less expensive if you buy
them directly from Timberwolf (or at least they were last year).
Terry Gerros
From: Brent McLaughlin [Brent.McLaughlin at sbpa.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 10:44 AM
To: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: Tool parts.
Hello all,
Does anyone know if a business exist that caters to supplying parts to
repair old tools. Example wood :) be automotive parts houses.
Brent McLaughlin
SBPA Systems, Inc.
Houston, TX
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 10:23 AM
To: Brent McLaughlin; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Tool parts.
Brent McLaughlin sends:
>Hello all,
> Does anyone know if a business exist that caters to supplying parts to
>repair old tools. Example wood :) be automotive parts houses.
Depends on the tools.
Hand tools like planes (especially planes!) can be repaired using parts
from Woodcraft's catalog (www.woodcraft.com), if they're a real high
quality, known brand like Stanley or Record. Some planes are made by
the user, in which case you've got to get the parts from the same source
the maker did--there's a big woodpile over there, there's a set of carving
gouges at this workbench, have at it, my son.
Power tools? Some tools are still being made--Porter-Cable's 1/4-sheet
finishing sander, for instance, has been made for decades, was made
by a different company before P-C bought the tool (someone out
here knows who had it first--was it Rockwell?), and can be repaired by
Porter-Cable. Similarly, some old Black and Decker stuff can be
repaired pretty easily.
Quality tools have always had support in the guise of spare parts
available, and some tool jobbers that have been around forever
will have spare parts for the weirdest stuff. Might take some looking
around, but you may find what you need eventually.
If, however, what you are looking for is something like a "Beaver
Boys" store, complete with ads featuring a guy named Marty who
charges into the store, goes up to the countermen, and says "Okay,
show me a trunnion bearing for a 1967 Rockwell Unisaw. A tailstock
for a Oneway 2436. A handle for an Ames adze. Focus! A...frog...for...
a...Stanley No. 5!" while they plunk boxes full of tool parts down
on the counter...the answer is, "I wish!"
--jmowreader
"ROM stands for Read-Only Memory. That's the place in a
computer that doesn't go away when you shut off the power.
It's also the place where computer companies put their
worst idiosyncracies."
--Guy Kawasaki, The Macintosh Way
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 1:59 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: tool test link belt tune-up kit
The ads for this package have been out long enough now, that I thought I'd give `em a
closer look. I ordered the package of pulleys and 4' of belt from both Woodcraft and
from Hartville Tool.
* The section on belting was identical in each package.
Where the difference came in was with the pulleys.
* Both packages included a pair of machined pulleys with 5/8 bore and a milled key
way slot.
* The pulleys from Woodcraft have the securing set screw within an additional hub on
the side of the pulley face.
* The Hartville pulleys accept the set screws in the valley of the belt groove.
* The Woodcraft kit had a pair of 2�" pulleys
* The Hartville kit had one 2�" and one 2�" pulley.
This diameter difference may, at first seem to be a piddling point of little concern,
then I ran the numbers I saw a difference. With the motor doing 3450, the same sized
pair spin the arbor at 3450, but with the other pair the same 3450 motor spins the arbor
at 4217, a difference of 767 RPMs. A noticeable difference.
I did already have a pair of turned pulleys installed, and a Top Cog automotive belt. I
thought this was good. With the saw sporting the new kit, I can stand a penny on edge
and it stays there. Big deal you say; I think so, since the penny is set while the
machine is at rest, and stays there through the power-up. A well spent $48.00.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 1998 2:24 PM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: tool test link belt tune-up kit
Hello Rodger,
Please, how about telling me what you installed the link-belt on. While
you're at it, would you explain in simple lay terms what 2*" and 2*" and
2*" are? At first I thought it was 2" diameter. But then you go on to
say there was a difference in speed, so obviously that cannot be.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 9:05 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: tool test link belt tune-up kit
Donald Weisman wrote:
Hello Roger,
Please, how about telling me what you installed the link-belt on. While
you're at it, would you explain in simple lay terms what 2*" and 2*" and
2*" are? At first I thought it was 2" diameter. But then you go on to
say there was a difference in speed, so obviously that cannot be.
To Don and others I may have confused:
The diameters of the pulleys in use was 3" for the driver and 2 1/2" for the driven pulleys.
The diameters of the pulleys in the Woodcraft kit was a pair of 2 3/4" pulleys.
The diameters of the pulleys in the Hartville kit was one at 2 1/2" and one at 2 3/4".
I apologize for any confusion created by forces beyond my knowledge. I assure you the text was there and readable before I posted it. I used the keyboard key combination of ALT-0188, ALT-0189, and ALT-0190 to generate the fractions 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 respectively. In the future I will make every effort to break myself of this keyboarding habit.
While I'm on the spot here, I incorrectly stated that both of the existing pulleys were of the turned variety. One was, the 2 1/2" driven one, while the driver was, in fact, a cast/balanced pulley. However, I assembled the link belt and installed it on the existing pulleys and ran it for 5 minutes, for evaluation purposes, before installing the new pair of turned ones. The greatest improvement was achieved by replacing the automotive type belt, changing out the cast pulley sweetened the deal enough for the penny to stay upright.
While I have your eyes.....if you choose to go with the link-belt kit
a.. Be aware that the belt is directional. There is a TINY arrow printed on the belt, approximately once in a foot.
b.. As with most things new and stiff, the belt needs a little break-in time, fresh out of the package. The action improves after running for 20 minutes.
c.. Even when the link belt in in installed on the compatibly sized pulley, they seem to ride a tad high.
d.. These belts can be installed on 2X and 3X multiple sheave set-ups.
e.. Grainger's has the belting packaged in bulk lengths
f.. Grainger's does not carry turned pulleys.
g.. a naked four foot length of link-belt for $21.00 is a good price. ($5.25/foot)
h.. if one was to inventory an additional length of say 5-6 feet, ANY belt failure could be repaired with minimal downtime
Closing comments..
The concept of link-belts is not a new one. The print shop I worked in in the 60's had most of their machinery fitted with them. They were probably B or C cross section, where these for TS are A size. Once broken-in, they will travel around smaller pulleys with ease, and not take a set overnight like solid section belts can. There is not a bump bump in the morning.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 9:33 AM
To: dunwright at worldnet.att.net
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: tool test link belt tune-up kit
Roger,
Thanks for the the deciphering.
You said, Grainger's does not carry turned pulleys. For your information
W.W. Grainger has Cast Iron (which I believe are balanced) pullys which
are considerably better than the common cast zinc ones.
So again, what is the tool you installed this on?
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:04 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking
Subject: Re: tool test link belt tune-up kit
Donald :
> You said, Grainger's does not carry turned pulleys. For your
> information
> W.W. Grainger has Cast Iron (which I believe are balanced) pullys
> which
> are considerably better than the common cast zinc ones.
I have their catalog #382, that's how I found out they carry link
belting. I have been considering the link belt for some time, and the
woodworker catalog ads suggest/recommend turned pulleys. What the hell,
in for a penny, in for a pound. I went for the pre-assembeled kit from
Hartville. I tacked it on to the order I was making.
> So again, what is the tool you installed this on?
It's 1970's Craftsman Contractor's saw. I had already done some
tweaking of the drive system with the addition of the one turned pulley
and the cogged belt. Cogged belts have kerfs cut across them, so they
wrap smaller pulleys easier. The brand of machine the kit was installed
on, seemed of less importance than the results of the installation. The
new belt tracks around without the flutter commonly seen on most belt
driven systems. As you probably know, on contractor type saws the belt
tension is a result of the motor advancing through the support quadrant
plate. If there is not smooth power transmission, the motor will hop and
compound the vibration condition. To that end, I had installed a
compression spring on the bolt's shaft that passed through the
quadrant. It gave some dampening effect, but is unnecessary now.
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:21 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Toolbox, update
OK, I took a breather.
Back at the workbench, I double checked my marks, hooked up an aux fence to
my mitre gauge and started cutting my finger joints. They were spaces wide -
about one inch, and work kinda like half-blind dovetails. When I test fit,
nothing meshed. But, that's expected - always leave the line. My daddy
always said "better to cut a board twice too long than once to short". Got
the chisels, and cut joints to fit. Nice and snug. Sanded a tad so's not too
snug. Cut the groove for the plywood bottom and test fit. Square. This was
scary!
Glued it up, stayed up late to remove the clamps. Looks good now after
sanding and the first coat of tung oil! Only one more gift to go...
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Jonathan A. Learned [jonathan.learned at the-spa.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 11:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: topping off attic stairs
Hello folks,
I am in the process of trimming off a folding attic stairway and would
appreciate any ideas that your collective wisdom may produce. Basically
the opening is 24"W X 54"L and has been mounted flush with the ceiling. The
manufacturer used 1/4" luanply for the opening and I do not feel that this
is acceptable astheticly nor is it energy effiecent. My thoughts are to
prepare trim to surround the opening with a rabbet along the inside edge
which would receive the inversly rabbetted edge of a panel applied to the
1/4" ply opening. The panel would be a frame assembly enclosing T&G stock.
Headspace requirements will not allow for insulation behind the panel but I
could weatherstrip the edges using this design. White pine would be my
stock of choice seeing that it is plentiful and free (small gloat).
Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
Jon Learned
(apprentice neandrathal)
*anxiously awaiting the release of L-N #7*
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 7:17 AM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Tops bowing
Why is it that a glued up top bows?
One reason is in the clamps themselves. Sooner or later, most people
purchase "Pipe Clamps". Have you ever noticed the pipe bowing when
pressure is applied? The clamp head and tailpiece are being pulled
slightly off their flat face. The more the head is tightened, the more
pipe bows and the more severe the bowing in the wood top after the
clamps are removed. Failure to place the "flat" of the clamps on the
center of the edge also adds to the problem.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Dick Jarski [jarski at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:50 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net; TheOaklistserv
Subject: RE: Tops bowing
Why is it that a glued up top bows?
Another reason is not alternating the grain.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 10:10 AM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Re: Tops bowing
Dummy, it's Cupping not bowing. Bowing is from end to end. Cup is across
the width.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 12:47 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Tops bowing
Don Weisman wrote:
>Why is it that a glued up top bows?
>One reason is in the clamps themselves. Sooner or later, most people
>purchase "Pipe Clamps". Have you ever noticed the pipe bowing when
>pressure is applied? The clamp head and tailpiece are being pulled
>slightly off their flat face. The more the head is tightened, the more
>pipe bows and the more severe the bowing in the wood top after the
>clamps are removed. Failure to place the "flat" of the clamps on the
>center of the edge also adds to the problem.
I use the 1/2" Ponies but I also believe that a properly machined
edge(s) doesn't require being able to close the crack of dawn so I try
never resorting to help from the Johnson bar.
The Acme screws on the 1/2" clamps have a center line 5/8" above the
pipe. When gluing up I raise the clamp to where the centerline of the
screw is centered on the boards edge. I could make up some 1/8"
hardboard shims (for 3/4" stock) to accomplish the same thing but that
would require taking five minutes to do so. :-)
It also helps to place clamps on both faces. Imagine your clamps
radiating force at 45 degrees from the heads. Where this imagined
force line hits a joint is where you'll need another clamp. Put that
clamp on the alternate side and have it's imagined force line start
where the other leaves off.
Now if I can just win the lottery and buy the Besseys... sigh...
Keith Bohn
From: Russell Griechen [griechen at foxhunters.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 1998 4:15 PM
To: jarski at sprintmail.com; abacus at pdq.net; TheOaklistserv
Subject: RE: Tops bowing
Hello Woodworkers,
I have had considerable experience making panels for solid core doors.
I have found that making the clamp is simplified with the practice of
placing a pipe of the same diameter as the wood at the pressure point. If
you are working with most woods of 13/16 or 7/8 use a 3/4 diameter pipe.
When the clamp is tightened most of the pressure is applied at the heel of
the clamp. The pipe will transfer the pressure applied to the center or
near center of the wood. Assuming all joints are 90 degrees rather that
89+ or 91- then the board will not bow up or down.
Another semi-production tip..
I made 2 torsion type tables for gluing a stack of doors when I had an
order for 50 house doors made by sandwiching 2 3/4 raised panels
frames/doors. which produced full 1 1/2" with raised panels showing from
both sides. Heavy stuff.. I bought a roll of light brown kraft papers and
placed the panels on these 36" x 80" tables. first the paper and then the
panels to be glued and glued up all the panels in lengths of 80" or less.
This was a great way to handle the glue. It just smoothed and puddled on
the paper with no spike drips. and I troweled down the top glue that had
emerged from the panel. I could work the glued panel im a comparatively
green state first on the table saw and then through the planer..with not a
smudge on the table say. In effect the paper stayed right on the panel
through the table saw and then the planer by placing the paper side down.
Small shops could even use newspaper...but I mounted the roll of kraft on
the table itself and simply pulled the paper across the table and laid the
wood on it. To facilitate handling I ran a 3/8 over-round bit on a 3/4
board 6" wide and 36 so that it similated the pipe and transferred the
pressure point to the center. The pipe clamps would bow but the pressure
was applied to the center.
I screwed on of the 6"x36" boards to the head of the table to take one more
problem equation out of the mix.
Russell Griechen
From: Mike Hatlak [mikehatlak at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Tormek Sharpener?
Hello All,
Anyone have any experience with this Tormek sharpening system? Seems
very pricey. How does one lap the back of a chisel on this thing? Is it
worth the money?
thanks in advance,
mike hatlak
From: Terry Gerros [gerrost at ccmail.orst.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:15 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Mike Hatlak
Subject: Re: Tormek Sharpener?
Hi Mike,
I bought a Tormek about 3 months ago after vascillating between it and
the Makita system. Ask Frederik. :-) Now you must know that I am an
extreme novice at woodworking, just going into my second year. I
bought this system because it seemed to make learning how to sharpen
more friendly. What I have found is that nothing is idiot proof.
Even with all the jigs, there is still a learning curve, although not
as steep. The jigs certainly make it easier, and I can put a razor
sharp edge on a tool. Yes, it is expensive, but check with
Constantine's. I bought my system from them for 15% off their catalog
price. And their catalog prices on that system are comparable.
My bottom line is that I like the tool very much and am very happy
with the purchase. Yes, it is expensive, but I think it is worth the
money. As far as lapping the back of the chisel, you would use the
side of the wheel. That is what Tormek recommends.
Regards,
Terry Gerros
From: Jim Lunden [jlunden at sma-promail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:36 PM
To: 'Mike Hatlak'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Tormek Sharpener?
Hi Mike:
I have the Tormek System and have found it to be most satisfactory. I
get about 95% of the sharpness of Scary Sharp with 10% of the work.
You can begin to flatten the back of a chisel or plane iron on the side
of the wheel (which is spinning on a horizontal axis). The final
lapping must be done on a bench stone or sandpaper setup.
The system excels at redoing an old or chipped blade. It can really hog
off a lot of material without fear of disturbing the temper of the edge
because of the constant water bath.
Its versatility goes way beyond chisels and plane irons. I have just
started to learn to carve. The Tormek can be used to sharpen all kinds
of tools. It even does an excellent job on the almost impossible to
sharpen V-tools.
Its is a big investment, but the time it gives me to make shavings
outweighs the cost many times over.
Jim Lunden
Avon, CT
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:37 AM
To: Wendy Wilson
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Transparent UV finishes
Hi Wendy
I have changed the name of the tread in hopes that we will get some
more definitive answers from more experienced finishers.
Spar varnish has UV inhibitors. In fact any exterior clear coating
has UV inhibitors to prevent the finish from turning to yellow. I
remember reading about a house deck finish that had UV inhibitors but
to achieve the best results you need to use one with a stain in it
(kinda defeats the purpose). I know what you mean about the cedar red
that is more towards pink than orange, wonderful color. The orange
red look "craftsy" like so many items at the roadside gift shops.
Speaking of cedar. A guy at the woodturning club I go to (Phil
Brown) turned a piece of cedar end grain. It was a tall bowl with the
pith in the side instead of centering it in the bottom. Doing it end
grain instead of the usual way gave a spectacular effect. He also
turned past the white sapwood. It was one of the best pieces I have
seen in several months. I like cedar but always consider it "craftsy"
looking. His bowl changed my view of the wood.
From: Ray Berry (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Travels with Ras - Part the second
Now where were we. Ah, yes, Miffy - melamine heaven.
The amazing discovery that ML (My Love) made was that miffy were going to
concentrate on chipboard (particle board) kitchens and move out of the home
furnishings (curtains, drapes and stuff ) market. So on their shopfitted
islands - you know, the stuff with shelves to display the goodies, they had
affixed a sign - shopfittings for sale, enquire at the cash desk. Now if
there are any UK readers out there, get down to your local Miffy quick
since they have gone ape (mad). They are selling these islands at around 50
quid (thats UK pounds or 80 us dollars. 100 Canadian dollars, 200
Australian dollars or 25 billion Turkish Lira) each.
I bought two islands. They were all made of pine and hardwood (unlike their
furniture) and actually cost the store, and I have it on good authority
from the manager, a great Highland lady, around a thousand pounds each.
These are big islands. It gets better, because each island comes with
thousands of screws, all sorts of shelf fitting hardware and some mdf
thrown in for good measure. (I filled a whole Rolykit I bought off QVC with
screws. I also used my Wagner power cordless drill to undo them all which I
also bought off QVC in a fit of midnight ecstasy.) Now these are the wooden
islands which are a real bargain on stilts. The other islands they have are
made of chipboard and mdf. I told the manager that I wasn't interested in
these since I didn't find chipboard too sexy and the plastic covering
didn't appeal. I just liked the wooden stuff. She said I was probably right
so we loaded up the car with as much as we could carry and headed home
promising to return in the morning with our one ton trailer to pick up the
rest. My trailer is a bit like the back of a US pick up truck. You can bung
anything in and cart it about. We've had horse manure, composted bark - 'er
indoors is a gardener, as you may have guessed and my trailer is a bit like
a willing donkey. In fact it is home made and I bought it from a guy in the
village who says he has Alzeimers disease and he couldn't remember why he
sold it to me and went right out and bought another trailer made of
aluminium, unlike mine which is wood and steel, I told you they were weird
around here.
Next morning I arrived back at the Miffy emporium, its forty miles up the
side of Loch Ness (http://www.ipw.com/lochness) to get from our remote home
to the local town of Inverness, but I was game. (Deer are also game, as are
grouse and pheasants, but that was not quite what I meant). I loaded up
what was left of our extensive quantity of bargain wood when I went back to
thank the guys for their help loading it and stuff. I was then told about
the mdf table. This table is 8ft by 4ft in size and built to hold a chair
display. The top is 3/4 inch 8x4 mdf and the ladder type supports were in
inch and a half mdf with various other struts and stiffeners in inch mdf.
Now love mdf or hate it it still is pretty good stuff that costs a bomb or
two. They said I could have the lot for another 25 quid or around 12
billion Turkish lira. (Amazing place Turkey, went there on holiday once and
a couple of UK pounds makes you a lira millionaire. Nice feeling until you
find out that its all gone on a cup of Turkish coffee, stuff you could
clean the bathroom with). But I digress, and i haven't even got to my
travels with Ras yet... ho hum.
So OK I fork out another 25 quid (thats pounds in English - or Scottish
money) and I load this, with help, onto the trailer. Grateful for my
custom, the manager then tells me that around the back of the store is the
loading bay where they have dumped another island or two that they had to
break to get apart. If I wanted any of it, I was told to go and take it. It
was a sunny day a couple of days ago and the chipboard hadn't detiorated so
I went to take a look. If you want to call anytime around the back, then do
so and take what you want, they said. Talk about a child in a sweetshop
(candystore). There were inch thick melamine wood effect shelves which may
not be aesthetically pleasing in the parlour but are tough and fine for the
workshop - more than I could carry at 48 by 24 inches each and every one
with a perspex plastic bit at the front to keep stuff from droppong off. I
am up to my waist in perspex bits now dreaming of router base extensions....
Best of all were these 4x4 foot panels of inch and a half mdf that made up
the spines of these chipboard islands. I managed to to lift and dump in the
trailer at least six of these, I pulled a muscle in my back and woke up
that night with cramps, but as Norm says, you can never have enough cramps.
Now I know what he means. I load up the car until the suspension is
screaming and then I load the trailer. The cops didn't catch me on the way
home, thank heaven. A circus like load of mdf passing all the japanese
tourists who come to see the Loch Ness monster, well they saw a sort of
monster...
Talking of Japanese tourists, a friend of mine who drives a tourist bus
locally told me of the day he had a load of Japanese business out for a
tour of Loch Ness and the local area. That was when they were making the
film Highlander, with Sean Connery around here. The businessmen all got out
of the coach on a nice parking area among the mountains to eat their packed
lunch when a horde of highlanders with swords and sticks screamed over the
hill. The director shouted cut since he didn't want 56 japanese businessmen
in neat suits and a Wallace Arnold bus in his period movie. As for the
Japanese guys, they thought it was for real and ran like rabbits. Two of
them passed out cold and the movie company afraid of being sued gave them
great hospitality and a slap up meal and introduced them to Sean. What a
sight for sore eyes?
Anyway I got home. I unloaded the stuff and filled the garage up again.
This needs a good saw I said, to do justice to all this. It was like a
lumber yard out of Alice in Wonderland. Weirdly enough I stopped to get the
local paper on the way home and in there was an ad for an old De Walt
Radial Arm Saw. 'Er indoors was so pleased with the Adirondack chair that
she was not entirely immune to the idea of a Radial arm saw, whatever that
was. I phoned up the ad and got a lady who was more that a little
inebriated, drunk if you will. Did I mention that it was also my birthday,
no, well it was. Anyway, I said I would call in the morning when she felt
better (or worse) to check out the saw, my lovable friend, Ras.
To be continued, probably.....
Ray
From: Ray Berry (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Travels with Ras - Part threeish
What a night that was. As I said, it was my birthday and we split a couple
of bottles of the finest French plonk (wine) and by the a.m. I was still
asleep, but kind of awake, if you see what I mean. I had this burning
vision of a De Walt Radial Arm Saw somewhere in the distance along a wide
avenue of sleepiness and encroaching hangover. So I got up and went to take
the dog for a walk. Happened to glance in the garage/workshop and was
amazed to find it full of wood, mdf, chipboard and rolykits. I blinked and
it was still there. This is woodwork heaven, all thats missing is a Radial
Arm Saw, Ras.
Then I remembered the inebriated lady.
I rushed in, gave the dog its biscuit and phoned her, Sure enough there was
a Ras there and the price was 250 quid. My sweet and lovely fresh from
brewing coffee fancied a run out into the country to look at Ras - after
all the going rate for a Ras here is well over 800 quid. As I said, this
place is bigger than a couple of Belgiums (where?) and our local paper
covers it all. It was only about a hundred miles to go to see the saw
(seesaw) and through the most attractive, to 'er indoors' and frustrating
country lanes as ever you will see or drive. Plus it was deep into a part
of the Highlands called Grampian where people are said to be very canny
(mean). In fact I heard a story of one widow in Grampian who used the free
obituary listing in the local paper when her husband died to advertise the
family car for sale.
Fresh after breakfast (hey if you ever want great Bed and Breakfast plus
use of a brilliant woodwork shop - email and the net, stupendous,
breathtaking scenery, Loch Ness and heaven on earth, let us know, you are
very welcome - for a small fee of course, I have to buy the dog's biscuits
- oh and talking of biscuits, those mdf islands had enough biscuits to feed
a third world country) we set off to the weird world of Grampian along the
yellow brick road, or the A82 as its called here. There were traffic snarl
ups, road works, japanese tourists in rented cars and similar hazards so I
had to call at least twice on my cellphone to say we were coming lest they
didn't believe it. I had visions of people queuing up for the saw, and I
was right as it turned out, but I was first with the phone call so I had
first option, at least that is how its supposed to work. It usually works
better than the cellphone that hates unhitech stuff like mountains and things.
We had to go to a toon (or town in English) called Turriff. It nestles
between fields and mountains in an area almost entirely bereft of roads.
And there was me and my trailer (always the optimist) struggling through
the mire, peat bogs and tourist busses to get there before the Grampian
woodworkers awoke to the bargain of the century. She who must be obeyed
told me not to be so paranoid, "you're not Bill Clinton, you know" says she.
Finally we arrive. I ask a passer by to direct me to the street I was given
on the phone and by sheer chance I accost the only deaf idiot in Turriff.
"Where", he says? "Church Terrace" I scream. Passing shoopers stare at me
as if I was a total lunatic or some kind of Tony Blair in disguise, they
look for the candid cameras. "Church Terrace" for chrissake, I repeat.
"Birch Trees?" he replies. I know I am doomed. Ras will never be my pal now.
Finally we find the place. We go in. We are welcomed as the phone burns
with callers after the saw. I go out into the garage with an ageing joiner
who tells me how bad his heart has been and that he was dead for five
minutes before the doctors revived him. I was dead for five minutes in
Turriff High Street, I know the feeling. "Och its a good wee saw" he says.
"Will you take 200" I say. "Och no, they're queuing up at the door for the
poor wee thing."
I check out the saw best I can with a medical history in one ear and the
the vision of a beautiful Elu planer thicknesser in the corner of my eye.
"Is that for sale too" I ask. "Yes, for 350 pounds," quoth he. "I'll give
you 500 for the two" says I with my cashcard glowing in my pocket seeking a
hole in the wall for its next orgiastic cash receiving fix. "Och no, I'd
want at least 500 just for the planer," says he. "But you just
said........" "I'll take the saw" I said and he almost fainted as he leaned
down to separate the saw from its stand. White as a sheet he arose and
handed me the spanner (wrench)...."I'll not want to die in the garage" he
said.
Tea and biscuits later (those damned biscuits again) we depart. Saw in the
back of the car and stand in the trailer. We have a saw blade with "only
one wee tooth awa" and no instructions. If anyone reading this can fax or
email me a copy of the instructions for a DeWalt Radial Arm saw, please do
so - the fax number is +44 1320 340211. I'll be forever grateful.
Fainting from hunger I stop in another little Grampian town - quaint with
eight antique shops and one fish and chip shop. I had intended on
frequenting the fish palace but 'er indoors goes for the antiques. Weak
with hunger we finally partake of a haddock with dry and miserable chips.
Then comes the long haul home.
We arrive back in Inverness as darkness falls. The trailer is almost empty
so I cruise by Miffy to see if the back gate is open. It is. I pile in
another 20 thick chipboard shelves and a couple of the bases and head for
home, only another forty miles to go past the ever changing face of lady
Loch Ness.
That night, last night, it poured with rain. Anything left in the miffy
loading bay is ruined.
The adventure is over.
Ras has a new home.
If anyone can help with the instructions, advice, tips or jigs for Ras, I
will be eternally grateful.
Thanks for listening.
Ray
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
To All;
I have been asked to do a turned base for a trophy and the finish is to
be black. I am considering laminating up MDF to the req'd size, turning
it and sealing it.
I am looking for suggestions as to what black finish can be applied to
this turning in a similar way to french polishing done on the spinning
wood in the lathe.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 8:29 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
Black Lacquer?
-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey Freeman [mailto:harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:04 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
To All;
I have been asked to do a turned base for a trophy and the finish is to
be black. I am considering laminating up MDF to the req'd size, turning
it and sealing it.
I am looking for suggestions as to what black finish can be applied to
this turning in a similar way to french polishing done on the spinning
wood in the lathe.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:02 AM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
Harvey Freeman wrote:
>
> I am looking for suggestions as to what black finish can be applied to
> this turning in a similar way to french polishing done on the spinning
> wood in the lathe.
Good morning Harvey.
Since you seem to know how to apply french polish like finishes on
the lathe, why not stain a dark black and apply the clear polish over
it, as many coats as you like ? The color should be excellent (I find
NGR the most convincing black but water based is way more colorfast)
and the protection much better than a black lacquered surface.
Jean
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:09 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
I've heard that black shoe dye (not polish) makes an
excellect full black stain for wood. Plan to try it soon.
Gary Cavener wrote:
>
> Black Lacquer?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harvey Freeman [mailto:harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:04 AM
> To: woodworking at theoak.com
> Subject: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
>
> To All;
> I have been asked to do a turned base for a trophy and the finish is to
> be black. I am considering laminating up MDF to the req'd size, turning
> it and sealing it.
>
> I am looking for suggestions as to what black finish can be applied to
> this turning in a similar way to french polishing done on the spinning
> wood in the lathe.
>
> --
> Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
> 123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
> Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
> Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 4:38 PM
To: harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Trophy Base Turned - Finished Black
Harvey,
I think your choice of materials is too poor to give satisfactory
results for a Trophy base. What you're going to be working with is the
edges. The edges of MDF are generally (if not always) more open to
absorbtion (and coarser grain, if you will) than the surfaces. It will
take a lot of heavy bodied sealer to fill and seal those edges. In
addition, Gloss Black, requires a perfect foundation to build upon. A
duller gloss does not.
If you don't do a lot of finishing, you'll find that a decent spray can
of Black Gloss enamel (off the lathe) will do a fine job for a Trophy.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 6:03 PM
To: lokesh.dookie at gnnettest.com
Cc: Mike Orr; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: True Lumber dimension?
Lokesh Dookie wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Perhaps. Read the side (edge actually) of the plywood sheet. Look for a
> metric or "english" size printed on the sheet.
>
> My last trip into the local HD was interesting. I'm in the Toronto
> area, so Home Depot gets their plywood locally, in this case from a
> supplier in Quebec (our easterly neighbours). The there was NO 1/4"
> panels, only the metric (6mm) version. It just happens that 19mm is
> 0.748" (about 1/16" shy) of the full 3/4". Again, the edge of the sheets
> show they came from the same supplier in Quebec.
>
> A few jobs "ago" I worked for a loudspeaker manufacturer. The cabinets
> were made of baltic birch... you guessed it metric sizing too. It was
> 15mm or 16mm, can't remember but it was stamped on the sheets. Don't
> remember where they were made.
>
> I wonder if U.S. plywood use the inch size or the metric size?
>
> Lokesh
I can tell you that around in the Southwestern part of the USA, that the
US large (local) mfrs of plywood make it in english standard sizes.
Although it's not any longer in eighths of an inch. By-the-way, Baltic
Birch is not an american made product and thats why it's in metric.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Brent McLaughlin [bwm at sbpa.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:35 PM
To: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: TS Blades
First I would like to thank everyone who responded. A lot of insight was
gained on how I will approach purchasing a blade.
The replies generated the following responses.
Forrest WWII thin kerf 5
Ridge 2000 1
DeWalt 1
Freud 3
Oldham "Woodworking Wizard" 1
David Cohen said
"What the Forrest and Ridge give you in very thick carbide a AND shear
angles that give rip cuts smooth enough for glue-ups straight from the saw
(if you do allot of edge joining)."
Gary Cavener said
"I like knowing that my blade is 1/8", not some number of 64ths. It makes
figuring cuts easier."
Ken Martin said
"A thin kerf blade does not do well at all when the wood is being feed at 45
degrees across the blade."
Todd in Houston said
"We (our woodworking club) had a guest speaker a few months back from a
local sharpening shop come in and answer the much asked question "Choosing
the right blade"."
Tim Sherrill said
"I did some pretty extensive research six months ago or so. What I found is
that you pretty much get what you pay for. That makes Forrest blades the
best. CMT is also pretty good. Next in line is Systematic and Freud. I'm
finally getting to buy some blades, and I'm going with a Freud combination
and rip because I can get them for <$30 apiece at Lowes.
I've heard other people buy an 'every-day' blade and only use their Forrest
on the 'special' cuts and leaves it hanging above their mantle at other
times. <grin>"
After sifting through the responses I will probably go with the Freud to get
started unless I can find the Forrest cheaper. Then as Pamela (this is my
wife we just got married this past Sunday) request more projects get the
better blade(s). Since I am not as concerned about the amount of material
removed and I want a good ridged blade I'll probably go with the normal kerf
blade.
Thanks again for the information.
Oh by the way I have included this on a new interactive CD called the
Woodworkers Knowledge Base - just kidding -
This list is great! Keep up the good work.
Brent McLaughlin
SBPA Systems, Inc.
Houston, TX
Where the leaves are going to change in a minute now. And the only
woodworkers still looking for AC in the shop!
From: Lawrie Silverberg [lsilv at gbd.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:27 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
I've had my Forrest WWll for about 2 years and it still cuts
beautifully. Well worth the extra bucks.
Lawrie
>Forrest WWII thin kerf blade. Just bought one at the AWW show here in
>Detroit. I installed it in my Craftsman Bench Top saw.....WOW....what a
>difference
From: Tim Sherrill [sherritp at sagian.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: TS Blades.
I did some pretty extensive research six months ago or so. What I found is
that you pretty much get what you pay for. That makes Forrest blades the
best. CMT is also pretty good. Next in line is Systematic and Freud. I'm
finally getting to buy some blades, and I'm going with a Freud combination
and rip because I can get them for <$30 apiece at Lowes.
I've heard other people buy an 'every-day' blade and only use their Forrest
on the 'special' cuts and leave it hanging above their mantle at other
times. <grin>
Tim Sherrill
sherritp at sagian.com
From: Jody L. Baze [jody at blueskytours.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:27 PM
To: RGors1020 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 RGors1020 at aol.com wrote:
> Forrest WWII thin kerf blade. Just bought one at the AWW show here in
> Detroit. I installed it in my Craftsman Bench Top saw.....WOW....what a
> difference
Here's a followup question: Do you find you need to use blade stabilizers
with the thin-kerf blades?
While I'm on a roll, here's a followup to a followup: Do thin kerf blades
dull more quickly?
Just curious, I'm trying to decide between a standard and thin kerf blade
myself. Given that you have enough power to run a normal kerf blade, is
there any advantage to using a thin kerf (besides the obvious benefit of
less stock removal)?
Funny how one little question can make you think of 5 or 6 more... :^)
JLB
--
Jody L. Baze Blue Sky Tours, Inc.
Software Development 10832 Prospect Avenue N.E.
System Administration Albuquerque, NM 87112
jody at BlueSkyTours.COM (505) 293-9462
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:07 PM
To: Jody L. Baze; RGors1020 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Thin kerf blades do not require blade stabilizers any more
so than standard kerf blades.
Thin kerf blades do not dull any faster than standard kerf
blades. They cut proportionally less material. Ergo, for
each unit of blade width, they cut the same amount of
material as a standard kerf blade.
Because they cut less *total* material than a standard kerf
blade, a thin kerf blade tends to run cooler. They have
about the same surface area as a standard kerf blade to
dissipate the heat. Therefore, there is less tendency to
burn the wood.
(That is, if all other factors are equal.......How long has
it been since you tuned up the table saw?)
IMHO
10Q,
Moose
-----Original Message-----
From: Jody L. Baze <jody at blueskytours.com>
To: RGors1020 at aol.com <RGors1020 at aol.com>
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 03:00 PM
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
>On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 RGors1020 at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Forrest WWII thin kerf blade. Just bought one at the AWW
show here in
>> Detroit. I installed it in my Craftsman Bench Top
saw.....WOW....what a
>> difference
>
>Here's a followup question: Do you find you need to use
blade stabilizers
>with the thin-kerf blades?
>
>While I'm on a roll, here's a followup to a followup: Do
thin kerf blades
>dull more quickly?
>
>Just curious, I'm trying to decide between a standard and
thin kerf blade
>myself. Given that you have enough power to run a normal
kerf blade, is
>there any advantage to using a thin kerf (besides the
obvious benefit of
>less stock removal)?
>
>Funny how one little question can make you think of 5 or 6
more... :^)
>
>JLB
>--
>Jody L. Baze Blue Sky Tours, Inc.
>Software Development 10832 Prospect Avenue N.E.
>System Administration Albuquerque, NM 87112
>jody at BlueSkyTours.COM (505) 293-9462
>
>
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:40 PM
To: Lawrie Silverberg
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
At 20:27 06/10/98 GMT, Lawrie Silverberg wrote:
>
> I've had my Forrest WWll for about 2 years and it still cuts
>beautifully. Well worth the extra bucks.
Is this a triple chip negative kerf blade?
Ray
> Lawrie
>>Forrest WWII thin kerf blade. Just bought one at the AWW show here in
>>Detroit. I installed it in my Craftsman Bench Top saw.....WOW....what a
>>difference
>
>
>
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 5:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Jody L. Baze wrote:
>
> Here's a followup question: Do you find you need to use blade stabilizers
> with the thin-kerf blades?
>
I use 5" stabilizers with my 10" thin kerf blade, but I'm not sure
that's necessary.
> While I'm on a roll, here's a followup to a followup: Do thin kerf blades
> dull more quickly?
>
No, they last as long or longer than a standard kerf blade. Probably
longer, because there is less work done, and consequently less heat
build-up.
> Just curious, I'm trying to decide between a standard and thin kerf blade
> myself. Given that you have enough power to run a normal kerf blade, is
> there any advantage to using a thin kerf (besides the obvious benefit of
> less stock removal)?
>
Enough power for a standard kerf blade is, in my opinion, 3 HP. My saws
are 1-1/2 HP. A thin kerf blade made all the difference in the world
with my saws. My RAS is a different machine since I installed a 60
tooth Freud Thin Kerf blade. I'm still running a standard Freud 24
tooth rip blade in my TS, but that too will go to thin kerf when it gets
dull.
Regards, Gerald
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:45 PM
To: Brent McLaughlin; 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
I bought a moderately priced Freud blade for my Jet TS, works great! I'll
buy better someday, but I cannot justify the cost. I've done fine work with
it, cut roof braces (for old rotted rafters), etc. Does a nice job, smooth
cuts, no vibration, quiet. Nice blade.
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: RGors1020 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:23 AM
To: jody at blueskytours.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Hi...
Yes...I'm using a 5" stabilizer with the blade, however I am limited to the
thickness of the wood I can cut. Shorthly I will be ordering the smaller size
so that I can cut a thicker piece of wood.
As far as how fast the blade dulls...I've only had the blade for about 3 weeks
so I can not be a credible witness as to the life span of the blade.
The reason I went with the thin kurf is due to the power of my bench saw.
It's initial lack of power benifits from the thin kerf due to the fact the
wood is cut faster and the saw "appears" to have more power.
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:49 AM
To: Moose and Betty; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
At 05:07 PM 10/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Thin kerf blades do not require blade stabilizers any more
>so than standard kerf blades.
Forrest recommends using one blade stabilizer with their thin kerf blade.
While that may be a ploy to wheedle an extra few bucks out of us, I tend to
trust them.
Darn, I can't believe I used the word "trust" about any company's sales
practices! ;-)
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:20 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
We (our woodworking club) had a guest speaker a few months back from a local
sharpening shop come in and answer the much asked question "Choosing the
right blade". Many points he made were helpful, and the discussion led to
blade runout.
He reported that a leading cause of blade runout was due to blade
stabilizers. He said that reject saw blades were frequently turned into
blade stabilizers. Go figure. One member of the club reported at the next
meeting that he checked his blade runout, with his stabilizers on that he
swore by, and had about .007" runout. He took the stabilizers off,
rechecked, and had almost 0 runout.
I've never used them, and after his comments, don't plan on using them.
FWIW, one other nice thing he pointed out that causes blade runout, is the
technique used a lot of times to hold the blade in place while loosening
(and by some even tightening) the arbor nut. If a stick is jammed between
the throat and the teeth of the blade, you are most likely putting undo
pressure sideways against the blade, thus bending it slightly. He reported
that the proper technique was to raise the blade enough so that a scrap
stick could be placed flat on the table, spanning the throat opening, and
then move it towards the blade, and up to the blade, so that the blade
won't turn. Then, loosen the arbor nut (this assumes that you do not/can
not use two wrenches to loosen the blade, which he said was the optimum way
to remove the nut).
He said to NEVER lock the blade with a stick to tighten the arbor nut, but
to hold the blade with your hand and tighten the nut with the wrench.
Todd in Houston, Texas. First cool day in many many months. 60 degrees
this morning at 4:45am (yawn).
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 8:45 AM
To: Jody L. Baze; RGors1020 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Jody L. Baze Wrote:
>Here's a followup question: Do you find you need to use blade stabilizers
>with the thin-kerf blades?
I have noticed one thing when using thin kerf blades: they deflect wildly
when the motor starts. I can see the edge of the blade deflect itself
into an "S".
This may be why, after a while, my blades cut a wider kerf than when new.
(I keep a "kerf board" which I run into each blade when new.)
I doubt that brand or price alone are good guides. I always try to get
info on the particular blade. In my experience, different numbers from
the same maker will perform differently.
I have a very fine B&D hollow ground steel plywood blade that I have had
for 30 years. It still cuts 1/8 & 1/4 plywood like butter. I sharpened it
once.
I also have a DeWalt chop saw blade that is awesome. But I would not have
bought it were it not on sale 1/2 price.
Finally, I have an el-cheapo Creedo combo steel that just keeps trucking.
I also have several carbide blades, but I have found that they all
perform fine if I keep 'em clean.
I often use smaller blades (7 - 8 1/4") for precision jobs like sawing
lids off of boxes.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Canning & dehydrating tomatoes and peppers
like mad!
From: Jody L. Baze [jody at blueskytours.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:12 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Well, it seems like just about everybody agrees that thin kerf blades are at
least as good, if not better than, normal kerf blades. All the reasons given
seem reasonable to me (and thanks to everybody for clearing that up for me!)
So why do they still make normal kerf blades? Or maybe the better question
is why do people still buy normal kerf blades?
JLB
--
Jody L. Baze Blue Sky Tours, Inc.
Software Development 10832 Prospect Avenue N.E.
System Administration Albuquerque, NM 87112
jody at BlueSkyTours.COM (505) 293-9462
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 2:43 AM
To: Brent McLaughlin
Cc: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
I bet you are going to find a lot of different
opinions. I got an Oldham "Woodworking Wizard" and am very
pleased with it. The cuts, both rip and cross, are very
smooth. I like it so much that when I got a new blade for
my RAS I also got a Woodworking Wizard.
This blade series is made differently for each type of
machine (TS, RAS, Chop, etc.), so be sure to get the right
one. It is teflon coated, and comes with one free
resharpen. If you can not find it locally, there is an 800
number for Oldham (don't have it handy right now).
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:32 PM
To: Jody L. Baze
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
I can tell you why I do, Jody. For one thing, mine are 1/8" thick, not
some fraction in mm, 32 or 64ths. If I need to move the blade several
inches, I can easily put it right on the line or visually split a 1/6th
down the middle. Tape measures do not have 32nds. or less marked out
over the first 12".
Another reason is they are stronger is resisting side pressures that can
occur.
Another reason is that if I can stick with one thickness blade I don't
have to reset my fence alignment.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 5:22 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Jody:
Thin kerf blades seem to be getting better, but there are a number
of reasons that people still use them and will continue to use them.
First, as good as they are they still will not give as good of cut as a
high quality blade. Is that a problem, not really. The next reason is
that many thin kerf blades need stabilizers and that reduces the depth of
cut. A standard kerf is a standard size and you can use it as a
measuring device of sorts. The next reason is that not all cuts on a
table saw are straight rips or crosscuts. I use my saw quite often to
cut coves. A thin kerf blade does not do well at all when the wood is
being feed at 45 degrees across the blade.
Hope that helps a little.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:39 PM
To: TheOaklistserv
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Jody L. Baze wrote:
>
> Well, it seems like just about everybody agrees that thin kerf blades are at
> least as good, if not better than, normal kerf blades. All the reasons given
> seem reasonable to me (and thanks to everybody for clearing that up for me!)
>
> So why do they still make normal kerf blades? Or maybe the better question
> is why do people still buy normal kerf blades?
>
> JLB
Forrest advertises that their stabilizers are parallel and flat to .001.
--
> --
> Jody L. Baze Blue Sky Tours, Inc.
> Software Development 10832 Prospect Avenue N.E.
> System Administration Albuquerque, NM 87112
> jody at BlueSkyTours.COM (505) 293-9462
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Michael Osadchuk [michaely at yorku.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 11:32 PM
To: Jody L. Baze
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
Hi Jody
You have discovered how to smoke out the people who have a different
view by proclaiming a consensus!
I use a "regular" kerf thickness on my cabinet TS for the reasons others
have given: less "possibility" of deflection at the cost of slightly
more waste. Often when I doing a final "finish" rip cut only one side of
the blade may be cutting wood, a circumstance generating uneven pressure
on the blade and one where I want the stiffest possible blade.
An observation for whatever value it may have. When I asked for a
Forrest WW2 blade for my cabinet TS at a recent wood show I was handed a
thin kerf blade. No problems getting it exchanged for the regular kerf
thickness blade, though the booth salesperson said that the vast
majority of their sales was in the thin kerf variety. (Not surprising if
they don't ask which type you want,) However I note that the Revised
Edition of Cliffe's book on Table Saws has what appears to be a regular
thickness WW2 blade on the cover.
michael osadchuk
newmarket, ontario
From: Jody L. Baze [jody at blueskytours.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 11:15 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Blades.
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Michael Osadchuk wrote:
> You have discovered how to smoke out the people who have a different
> view by proclaiming a consensus!
I should've known that was trouble... and I'd just like to say thanks to
everybody for really muddying the waters on this thin kerf/normal kerf
business. Ha! :^D
Seriously, though, a lot of good points were made on both sides. My saw is a
1.5HP, so I'll probably pick up a thin kerf WWII for my main blade. If and
when the need arises, I'll probably get up a cheaper Freud or Systimatic
normal kerf blade. Oughta work out great for me.
Thanks again, everybody, for all the helpful advice!
JLB
--
Jody L. Baze Blue Sky Tours, Inc.
Software Development 10832 Prospect Avenue N.E.
System Administration Albuquerque, NM 87112
jody at BlueSkyTours.COM (505) 293-9462
From: Brent McLaughlin [Brent.McLaughlin at sbpa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 5:50 AM
To: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: TS hand cranks.
H E L P !
I've looked through all the magazines and books, that I have and haven't
found what I am looking for yet. I know after market hand cranks exist
because I've seen them somewhere before. Just can't remember where.
I'm looking for Stainless Steal or chrome hand cranks for my table saw. All
help is highly appreciated.
Brent McLaughlin
SBPA Systems, Inc.
Houston, TX
From: TecChef at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 7:45 AM
To: Brent.McLaughlin at sbpa.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS hand cranks.
Brent:
Reid Tool Supply <A HREF="http://www.industry.net/c/mn/0b4lp">Welcome To The
Reid Tool Supply Business Center</A> carries more styles, types, finishes, and
sizes of hand wheels than you could ever find a use for in your entire wood
working lifetime. Send for their catalog it makes great browsing. I've
purchased feeler guages from them to use to set the outfeed side of my router
table when used as a jointer.
Good Luck and Good WWking.
Chuck
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:03 AM
To: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: Re: TS hand cranks.
McMaster Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Or Grainger
http://www.grainger.com/
has them. I have also picked up some die-cast but pretty nice ones at
local hardware stores. Find a place that has a good selection of
pulleys & shives. Around here they're all made by "Chicago Die
Casting" who also makes handles and other strange stuff. Ask the store
for a catalog if they're not out.
Jim
Antioch IL
From: Brent McLaughlin [bwm at sbpa.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:26 AM
To: 'Wood Working Network'
Subject: TS Question
I just purchased a used TS it is a "crapsman" made about 15-20 years ago.
How can I find out who the manufacture of this saw is? Even though it is a
craftsman it sure is a solid tool.
Brent McLaughlin
SBPA Systems, Inc.
Houston, TX
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:47 AM
To: bwm at sbpa.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Question
Probably Emerson, they used to make almost all of Sears powertools. I
have one in that age range, and its actually a fairly decent tool, but
that was before Sears decided to concentrate on corporate profits and
less on quality, which, of course, is the reason that they almost went
belly up a few years back (i.e., cheapen them up, people got wise,
stopped buying there, profits down, another round of cheapening things
up,............)
>I just purchased a used TS it is a "crapsman" made about 15-20 years ago.
>How can I find out who the manufacture of this saw is? Even though it is a
>craftsman it sure is a solid tool.
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 3:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Question
Brent McLaughlin wrote:
>I just purchased a used TS it is a "crapsman" made about 15-20 years ago.
>How can I find out who the manufacture of this saw is? Even though it is a
>craftsman it sure is a solid tool.
Here is a listing of the manufacturers of Sears
tools via DejaNews. Can't vouch for its validity.
001.xxxx - Stevens
003.xxxx - King-Seeley (50's/60's table and scroll saws)
101.xxxx - Atlas
113.xxxx - Emerson
135.xxxx - Skil/Bosch
139.xxxx - Chamberlain (garage door openers)
149.xxxx - AMT
315.xxxx - Ryobi Motor Products
316.xxxx - Ryobi American
317.xxxx - Makita
319.xxxx - Hand ToolsInternational
572.xxxx - Dremel
833.xxxx - ??????
900.xxxx - Black & Decker (DeWalt,Elu)
???.xxxx - Colovoso (woodworking tools such as the planer
molder)
To determine the manufacturer of a Sear/Craftsman device you compare
the first three numbers of the model number with the above table.
A word of caution, items manufactured for Sears may have
some specifications that differ from the manufacturer's own
product(s).
There is generally a book at each check-out counter that will give
you information about who manufactures what. I would appreciate
anyone who gets any updated or new data to e-mail me and I will update
this list.
Keith Bohn
From: Clint & Tracy Warren [clintw at micron.net]
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:15 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Question
I have a 1960's Craftsman table saw and by your listing it was made
by Emerson (113.xxxx). You are truly a fountain of knowledge. I had
no idea Emerson made table saws.
clint warren
Boise, Id.
From: Bob Chapman [bob_chapman at viconet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 5:53 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: TS safetey question
Here's a problem that I run into quite frequently, and am not sure that I'm
approaching it correctly from a safety perspective.
I frequently need to cut a bunch of sticks of wood to the same length: most
recent example is rails for cabinet doors. Each rail is 3/4" too long
(approx.). I mark them all, and start cutting. The cut-off piece of the
first rail sits next to the spinning sawblade, but in a position where it's
not likely to get picked up by the blade and thrown at me. As I cut more
rails to length, the cut-off pieces push the ones before them towards the
rear of the TS, until they reach the back of the sawblade, where there is
more of a chance that the blade will pick them up and throw them because
theblade is spinning upward out of the insert. Here's the question: when do
you shut down the saw to clear these pieces out of the way:
1. after each piece is cut-off (takes a lot of time),
2. when the line of cut-off pieces reaches the back of the blade,
3. when the job is done (don't worry about these little pieces),
4. you've found some other way to get the cut-off pieces off the table
without stopping the saw?
I'd like to know your approach, because I'm not satisifed with how I'm doing
it now: I use choice #2.
Bob Chapman
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 8:25 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS safetey question
I use my pencil for this - I use it because it's always with me and easily
managed while sweeping away the cut-offs, but I imagine a 1/4" dowel would
suffice as well. I like a pencil because the eraser end effectively
removes the cut-offs without any hazard and they don't slip.
Joe
Genius is nothing but a greater aptitude for patience
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 9:43 AM
To: Bob Chapman
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS safetey question
Bob Chapman wrote:
>
> Here's a problem that I run into quite frequently, and am not sure
> (approx.). I mark them all, and start cutting. The cut-off piece
> rails to length, the cut-off pieces push the ones before them towards the
> rear of the TS, until they reach the back of the sawblade, where there is
> more of a chance that the blade will pick them up and throw them because
> theblade is spinning upward out of the insert. Here's the question: when do
> you shut down the saw to clear these pieces out of the way:
> 1. after each piece is cut-off (takes a lot of time),
You could...or use what Joe Johns recommended. But my pencil erasers and
various sticks slide off of the off cut during the process and oft times
create an even more serious danger threat.
> 2. when the line of cut-off pieces reaches the back of the blade,
Too late...
> 3. when the job is done (don't worry about these little pieces),
Thats always a risk. Some saws or blades are more prone to slinging a
small off cut than others.
> 4. you've found some other way to get the cut-off pieces off the table
> without stopping the saw?
In your example of door rails, I can see a couple of different
approaches and understand the importance of having both rails exactly
the same length.
Using a mark as a guide with the saw miter fence is not accurate enough.
If you use a "sled" instead, then your stop block could be clamped to
the sled, avoiding the necessity of using the tablesaw fence with stop
block, and plus the off piece would be carried away with the sled out of
harms way in readyness for the next cut.
The second is, why not cross cut the rails to correct length when
breaking down the board? Then you don't have to deal with any small
pieces to start with.
Also consider if you like to rough cross cut first, to insure that you
only have about a 1/4" or less to trim off. Then chances of getting
seriously hurt are diminished.
> Bob Chapman
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:04 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: TS safety question
-----Original Message-----
From: Moose and Betty <moose at northrim.net>
Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: TS safety question
>I really hate when this happens.
>
>The Ubiquitous Brother-In-Law strikes again.
I can understand your anxiety with the UBIL, but by George, he outshined us
(to a certain degree). Sure, there may be some drawbacks to his "method of
madness", but it's headed in the right direction. No appendages near a
spinning blade is a good start. Of course, I don't own a compressor or I
would have thought of that idea too. Or, I like to think I would have.
Your mileage may vary, but as long as you don't propel anything back into
the spinning blade you should be fine. Be just a little off in your aim of
that blast of air though and we're right back where we started. The ON/OFF
switch. This is getting to be like "safe sex", the only safe sex is
abstinence. The only safe approach to the TS is when she's not "turned on".
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:58 PM
To: dcook01 at mail.win.org
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS safety question
Guys It has been my humble experience that the windage off the spinning blade
sends the wee pieces away from the blade and toward the operator. A very few
times the piece stuck against edge of the insert , so I shut the machine down.
Now these were very small parts. 1x 9/16 x 1/2 . ( 1 inch long that is ) .
Bob A Indiana
mrasp at aol.com
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 3:47 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS safety question
I had a fright last night at the tablesaw.
First, I always wear safety glasses when using my tablesaw. Being the
visual guy I am, blindness is not something I want to go through life
dealing with.
I was resawing some 3/4" hard maple, about 5" wide. First pass, no problem.
But on the second pass, after flipping it over to complete the cut, I was
about 2" into the length of the cut when some sawdust was thrown up at me
and got into my eyes. Natural reaction - involuntary muscles - close the
eyes.
So, there I was. Eyes closed, push stick in left hand. Right hand fingers
on top of wood, and the only thing moving was the saw blade. What to do -
quick? I backed the stock out of the cut very carefully, managed to find
the switch with my eyes closed and turned off the saw. BIG sigh of relief.
From now on, safety GOGGLES. I think a push/holddown stick for my right
hand would be appropriate too...
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
From: LeeHarper at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:49 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS safety question
In a message dated 12/3/98 9:08:00 AM, tburch at cdbsoftware.com writes:
<<I had a fright last night at the tablesaw.
First, I always wear safety glasses when using my
tablesaw....................>>
Since I am a retired industrial chemist, I always wear prescription safety
glasses, but your experience makes me search for better alternatives. I don't
like safety goggles for two reasons:- 1) they restrict my peripheral vision
and 2) they cloud up with static attracted dust particles. Side shields on
safety glasses is some additional protection, maybe not from dust.
A safety face shield over prescription glasses is a good option except they
also attract dust. Has anyone tried fabric softener sheets on face shields to
reduce the static? It works on the blade guard on my Shopsmith table saw. It
also works on my computer screen. But, I have not tried it on a face shield
since I don't own a face shield.
Lee Harper
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:25 AM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: TS safety question
It helps, but it's not the "end-all to end-all". Quick note to store in the
ol' memory notes; DO NOT USE A BRAND NEW DRYER SHEET! You'll wind up with
an "oily film" all over the shield (been there-done that). Use a sheet that
has run through your dryer's cycle.
From: RLA [RLA at the.usp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 5:18 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS Switch
Hi Dave
I am probably all wrong on this as what you may be looking for is
an excuse to upgrade your electrical service and such.
I would mount a switch (light switch) next to the existing tablesaw
switch. This extra switch would control and outlet that your shop vac
is plugged into. The outlet could be mounted to the saw if you like.
Having both the saw and the shop vac starting at the same instant...
But starting the saw and then the shop vac (or the other way around)
would reduce the startup load on the circuit. This kind of setup
would permit you to turn both the saw and the shop vac on without
having to walk around the saw. I know it isn't as fancy as the
automatic stuff, extra circuits, magnetic switches and the like but it
would cost a lot less money. It also is simple enough that you could
do it in an hour and get back to what you really want to do which is
make sawdust.
If the plug for the saw and the plug for the switch for the shop
vac are in the same outlet make sure you have a 20 amp outlet.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: TS Switch
Author: Dave Tinley <davet at texasinternet.com> at internet-mail
Date: 12/28/98 8:12 PM
Yo to all the electrical pro's out there-
I would like to change the on/off switch on my Craftsman TS, to one that
will turn on the saw and a shop vac simultaneously, that sits next to
it. I think I remember (too many margarita's or is it old age) an
earlier post where you build an outlet and a switch in a box, but it
was advised not to use ordinary light switches, does this sound familiar
to anyone? And if this is so. What switch should I look for?
Thanks.
Dave Tinley
Waco, Texas
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 10:15 AM
To: woodworking
Subject: TS-110 vs 220
Good Afternoon-
Checking for info.
The electrician wiring my shop suggested changing the motor on my table
saw from 110v to 220v. He said the saw would not pull as much of a load
on 220 thereby using less electricity and run more efficient. But would
probably not increase the power.
After doing some checking on rewiring my motor, I find it cannot be
done, so it would have to be replaced. Is what he says true? And would I
gain on energy savings to offset the cost of a new motor ?
Thanks,
Dave Tinley
Waco,Texas
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 11:40 AM
To: woodworking
Subject: RE: TS-110 Vs 220
The only energy savings would be due to the loss in your wiring to your motor. Each wire acts like a resistor, thus causing a voltage drop across it. Since power = voltage x resistance, you would be losing power in the wiring.
However, I would still recommend going to 240V because it is easier on the motor at startup. At startup, you have a higher current draw, thus giving you lower startup voltage, which in turns gives you a higher current draw, etc, until finally, the motor decides to start. When you go to 240V from 120V, you cut this current draw in half, resulting in the equilibrium between current and voltage being reached faster, resulting in faster motor startups, thus possibly increasing the life of your motor.
In addition, when you are cutting thick or hard wood, the voltage drop across the wiring won't be as severe, and your motor will not bog down as much. The result is that your motor won't get as hot, thus preserving the life of your motor even further.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Tinley [mailto:davet at texasinternet.com]
>Good Afternoon-
>Checking for info.
>The electrician wiring my shop suggested changing the motor on my table
>saw from 110v to 220v. He said the saw would not pull as much of a load
>on 220 thereby using less electricity and run more efficient. But would
>probably not increase the power.
>After doing some checking on rewiring my motor, I find it cannot be
>done, so it would have to be replaced. Is what he says true?
>And would I
>gain on energy savings to offset the cost of a new motor ?
>
>Thanks,
>Dave Tinley
>Waco,Texas
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 2:20 PM
To: ymessier at istar.ca; Wood
Subject: RE: TS-110 Vs 220
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Yves Messier [mailto:ymessier at istar.ca]
>Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 12:47 PM
>To: sbigelow at bigfoot.com
>Subject: RE: TS-110 Vs 220
>
>
>Power is = voltage�/resistance
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stephen K. Bigelow [mailto:sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
>
>The only energy savings would be due to the loss in your wiring to your
>motor. Each wire acts like a resistor, thus causing a voltage drop
>across it. Since power = voltage x resistance, you would be losing
>power in the wiring.
Boy, my face is red! Power = voltage x current. Current = voltage/resistance. Thanks, Yves.From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 6:12 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS-110 vs 220
Bill Neely wrote:
>
> Keith, The amperage in a dual voltage single phase motor running at the
> lower voltage is exactly the same in each winding as it is at the higher
> voltage, the windings are simply run in parallel rather than in series
> as in the higher voltage application. Net effect is double the overall
> amperage but no difference in efficiency. It's the same as if you took
> two light bulb rated at 110v and hooked them up in series across 220v.
> Are you reducing the current compared to 110v? Yes.
> Is it more efficient powerwise? No. Regards, Bill
Bill, the light bulb example is not quite right. Each bulb will have
110 volts, but only half the current, so it will burn only half as
bright. The total light output will be the same as one bulb at 110
volts, but the up side is that the bulbs will last forever. Let me use
that as a launching point for an interesting off-topic story.
I got tired of replacing the bulb in my hall fixture, which is used as a
night light and sometimes stays on continuously. With an average of 12
hours of use per day, the life of a bulb was 3 months or less. I had
been using a single 40 watt bulb in a two socket fixture. 25 years ago,
I wired the two sockets in series. That gave each bulb 55 volts instead
of 110, and cut the current draw in half. Now each 40 watt bulb had
half the voltage and half the current, which consumes 1/4 of the rated
power. Each 40 watt bulb now puts out 10 watts, for a total of 20 watts
for the fixture. With such light stress, a bulb lasts forever, or more
accurately, I'm still waiting to replace the first one after 25 years
and approximately 100,000 hours of use.
Let's do some quick numbers. Saving 20 watts per hour of use has saved
me about $8 per year, or $200 over the 25 year period. With an average
rated bulb life of 1,000 hours, I've avoided buying and replacing 100
bulbs, which saves another $50, to say nothing of the time and
inconvenience spent shopping for the bulbs and replacing them. Not a
bad return on a 15 minute no cost wiring change!
Regarding the original question, it makes no economic sense to convert
the TS to 220 volts now, but if the 220 volt line comes relatively
cheap, it might very well be a good investment for the future. Regards,
Gerald
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:59 AM
To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS-110 vs 220
At 09:11 PM 11/2/98 -0500, Gerald Mayer wrote:
SNIP >With such light stress, a bulb lasts forever, or more
>accurately, I'm still waiting to replace the first one after 25 years
>and approximately 100,000 hours of use.
>
>Let's do some quick numbers. Saving 20 watts per hour of use has saved
>me about $8 per year, or $200 over the 25 year period. With an average
>rated bulb life of 1,000 hours, I've avoided buying and replacing 100
>bulbs, which saves another $50, to say nothing of the time and
>inconvenience spent shopping for the bulbs and replacing them. Not a
>bad return on a 15 minute no cost wiring change!
>Gerald
Hmmm. That's 10 bucks a year - or not quite a 1/2 sheet of lousy utility
plywood from Home Depot. (I bet there are darn few solo trips just for
bulbs.)
Reminds me of a former co-worker. He calculated how much he and his wife
could save if she took her shower after 10:00PM when local rates changed.
He would complain to us each day at lunch when she didn't change shower
times. She didn't bother to calculate how much his motorcycle, Beatles
collection and other activities cost them.
Course, the money he could have saved, was spent hundreds of time over on
divorce lawyers and alimony!
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:26 AM
To: Bill Neely
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: TS-110 vs 220
Bill Neely wrote:
>
> Gerald at 220v you will get exactly the same current with the two bulbs
> in series as you would with a single bulb at 110v.
> Maybe I didn't make myself clear: Two 110v bulbs running in series at
> 220v will draw half the current of two 110v bulbs running in parallel at
> 110v, however they will use the same amount of total power. The analogy
> was only to illustrate how the dual voltage motors are connected at
> 110v.
Bill, you're right of course. Each bulb will have the same current,
give the same light, and last for the rated hours. I was thinking ahead
to my example, where each bulb gets half the voltage, half the current,
puts out 1/4 of the rated light, and lasts forever. Sorry I
misunderstood.
Gerald
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: TS-110 Vs 220 (now bulbs)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Methelis [mailto:bobmethelis at jungle.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:59 AM
>To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
>Subject: Re: TS-110 Vs 220
>
>Hmmm. That's 10 bucks a year - or not quite a 1/2 sheet of
>lousy utility
>plywood from Home Depot. (I bet there are darn few solo trips just for
>bulbs.)
>
Yeah, but look at all the time he saved by not having to change the bulbs. That's where the real savings came in, in my opinion.
Think about it: First you notice the bulb is out, and spend a few days reminding yourself to change it when your hands are not full of tools for those other jobs you are working on. Then, you finally get around to changing the 40W bulb, and all you can find are those lousy 90W bulbs you bought by mistake. So, after going to the hardware store three times in a row, and forgetting to get the bulbs all three times (but still managing to spend $100 each time on "necessities"), you finally remember the bulbs on fourth trip on the way *to* the store instead of on the way home.
When you get home, you just have to try out that fancy new tool you've been promising yourself (a reward for finally remembering to buy the lightbulbs), so once again the bulb is not changed. It is not until the 2nd bulb burns out and SWMBO really gets on your case (heaven forbid that she drag out the ladder and replace the bulbs) that you finally get the bulbs replaced -- provided that you can find them this time. If not, it's another quick run to the store, this time only spending $50, because you only needed to buy bulbs.
So, you save all that time thinking about replacing the bulbs, save your marriage, save dragging out the ladder, etc., etc., etc. The only drawback I can think of is that you didn't get that new tool -- but you can always buy it anyway, because it was absolutely necessary in rewiring those sockets.
From: Stephen K. Bigelow [sbigelow at bigfoot.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:21 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: TS-110 Vs 220 (now bulbs)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Methelis [mailto:bobmethelis at jungle.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:59 AM
>To: gmayer at uconect.net; woodworking at theoak.com
>Subject: Re: TS-110 Vs 220
>
>Hmmm. That's 10 bucks a year - or not quite a 1/2 sheet of
>lousy utility
>plywood from Home Depot. (I bet there are darn few solo trips just for
>bulbs.)
>
Yeah, but look at all the time he saved by not having to change the
bulbs. That's where the real savings came in, in my opinion.
Think about it: First you notice the bulb is out, and spend a few days
reminding yourself to change it when your hands are not full of tools
for those other jobs you are working on. Then, you finally get around
to changing the 40W bulb, and all you can find are those lousy 90W bulbs
you bought by mistake. So, after going to the hardware store three
times in a row, and forgetting to get the bulbs all three times (but
still managing to spend $100 each time on "necessities"), you finally
remember the bulbs on fourth trip on the way *to* the store instead of
on the way home.
When you get home, you just have to try out that fancy new tool you've
been promising yourself (a reward for finally remembering to buy the
lightbulbs), so once again the bulb is not changed. It is not until the
2nd bulb burns out and SWMBO really gets on your case (heaven forbid
that she drag out the ladder and replace the bulbs) that you finally get
the bulbs replaced -- provided that you can find them this time. If
not, it's another quick run to the store, this time only spending $50,
because you only needed to buy bulbs.
So, you save all that time thinking about replacing the bulbs, save your
marriage, save dragging out the ladder, etc., etc., etc. The only
drawback I can think of is that you didn't get that new tool -- but you
can always buy it anyway, because it was absolutely necessary in
rewiring those sockets.
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 9:54 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: T-Slots in Drill Press Base Plate
Ok, what are the t-slots (well, maybe they're not -slots, but you get the
picture) in the base of my floor mount Drill Press useful for? I realize
that Drill Press'es are generally used in the metal working arena, but an
awful lot of woodworkers use them too, as I do. Could they be for bolting
the thing to the floor? Maybe some metalworking jig/fixture? I have a Jet.
Nothing in the owner's manual about them. I've never see any accessories
that reference them in any catalog either.
Do tell...
Todd in Houston. If you've ever though about visiting Texas, do it now
before the weather changes back to hot and muggy.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 11:05 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: T-Slots in Drill Press Base Plate
My old craftsman drill press has a 3 point bolt hole mounting provision
plus 2 long slots across the top of the base, although not a T-slot. I
always thought the slots were for the mice. But, (and I'm guessing now),
I'd say the slots are a provision for some type of milling table.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 2:03 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: T-Slots in Drill Press Base Plate
Todd,
My guess is they are to feed clamps through, like on the table. I have
them too at the base plate of my DP and have never used them for
anything. An extra long piece might somehow be clamped to the base if
need be.
Frederik
(soooo good to be home...)
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 6:23 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
Recently it has occurred to me that we woodworkers are a little strange
about our allegiances visa-vis tool edges.
For hand planes, power planes, drill bits and bandsaw blades we almost
always use one or more of several flavors of steel.
Yet for circular saw blades and router bits we pretty much always insist on
carbide.
Carbide has the advantage of longer life, but it also isn't able to hold as
keen of an edge nor is it as easy to sharpen as is steel. Of course it is
much more expensive than steel as well.
Two things got me to thinking about this.
One is that I have yet to wear out the cheap Vermont American HSS router
bits I bought "by mistake" years ago. I've been using the camfer and
roundover bits routinely and they still have a fine edge on them. Granted
I've been working mostly with softwoods and tulip poplar, but it would seem
that at least for rarely used profiles HSS might be a logical choice.
Whilst pondering this question I started reading "Using the Table Saw" and
was surprised to see the author, Nick Engler, make this very point visa-vis
table saw blades. Buy carbide for those blades you use *a lot*, but don't
bother in the case of seldom used specialty blades.
Would anyone else care to comment on this topic?
John H.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 6:47 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
John,
What you read is consistant with my thoughts too. I think things go awry
out of ignorance. They rarely hear the negatives. People hear so much
about "carbide" being so "good", they look for it in every edge tool. I
buy HSS router bits in preference to Carbide. I buy steel blades for
ripping in preference to Carbide.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: John T. Horner [jthorner at garlic.com]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:04 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
Thanks Don,
Where do you find good quality steel router bits and ripping blades? Do you
use the garden variety hardware store items, or is there a secret source :)
?
John
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 7:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
I'll try, John. Your observations are accurate for the most part,
except that your suggestion that carbide won't hold an edge as long as
steel is wrong.
There is no doubt that good steel will take a finer edge than the best
fine grain carbide, and most importantly, it will take an edge at a
steeper angle. That is why planes and chisels never use carbide. I
have several carbide drill bits, but they are for rough work. Steel is
the choice for fine work. I use steel for my bandsaw, but carbide is
available. Similarly, I use steel in my planer, but carbide is
available. I use steel because it works well and is durable enough for
my purposes.
Regarding routers and saws, carbide is by far the most reasonable
choice. Carbide is so universally used now in router bits that I doubt
if you could save anything by using steel bits. Steel will work as well
or better for the first few cuts, but carbide will cut better for the
long run. For saws, most of my blades are carbide, but a couple are
steel. In particular, my chop saw has a 120 tooth steel blade that you
can't buy in carbide, and it lasts a long time when you are cutting
cedar.
This is kind of like Darwin, with evoloution of the fittest. Good
quality carbide is a very stong contender, but high quality steel has a
solid niche market.
Gerald
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:05 PM
To: John T. Horner
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
Hell John, I have no secrets. I'd share anything I know or think I know
with the world...except my competitors. Let them find out the way I did.
:-)
I find Sears Craftsman HSS router bits to be good if I'm going in that
direction when I need one. I'll also buy Amana, Bosch, Porter Cable for
the same reason. Many bits are only made in HSS. Some are available in
either HSS or Carbide, and some only Carbide. For trial profiles, or one
that is for a special job and will rarely if ever be used again, it's
HSS if available. I'll even buy these little used bits from MLSC (is the
sp. correct?) or Eagle. As the man said..."they are sharper", and
therefore cut cleaner and smoother.
Regarding saw blades, while I do have a few (not too often used) steel,
they are more or less specialty which get used less and less as time
goes by. My big bucks are in Carbide blades though. Either in a fine
crosscut or a 30 TPI combination. I also like them 1/8 thick. When I rip
a lot, especially in thicker stuff, I'll put on the steel rip and if
necessary touch up sharpen it on the fly. The gullets are much larger
than the carbide, so it clears the chips better and runs cooler.
Incidently, with reference to Pallet wood, which I'm not going to get
into, it's always a risk running into a nail or staple using an
expensive carbide blade.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 8:57 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: John T. Horner; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Tubes vs. Transistors ---- I Mean Steel Vs. Carbide :)
Donald and John;
If you are using any amount of man made wood products -plywood, MDF or
particle board then you will discover the benefit of carbide very
quickly.
In 1971 I bought my first Router and B&D tried to seel me a 3/4"
straight carbide bit for $6. but I bought the HSS for $3. I did get my
oak plywood circles cut out with much smoking by the end of cutting out
just two 20" circles. There was a notch in the cutting edge at the line
of each glue line.
My collection of HSS bits never got very big.
From: Blakebj [blakebj at earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 10:25 AM
To: 'woodworking at theoak.com'
Subject: Tuning Up Power Tools
I recall a thread some time ago regarding a book on tuning up your power tools - RAS, etc...
Can someone dig the name of the book up for me?
Thanks
Blake Bjordahl
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 6:10 AM
To: blakebj at earthlink.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Tuning Up Power Tools
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:25:15 -0800, Blakebj wrote:
>I recall a thread some time ago regarding a book on tuning up your power tools - RAS, etc...
>
>Can someone dig the name of the book up for me?
Blake
I don't know of any book just on tuning up power tools you might want
to look at "Mastering Woodworking Machines" by Mark Duginske. It does
include information about adjusting them along with "how to use" them
information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 8:44 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Two colors of sand in a liquid
To All;
Does anyone know what the sand and liquid are in the framed pieces where
you turn them over and the sand slowly "spills" from a high elevation to
a low elevation?
I want to make some but have no idea what the materials are.
This is in fact a wood question because I saw one with a wood frame and
mounted in a wood stand so you just flipped it over and watched the
changing patter of the sand as it moved.
I figure the several different colors of sand are each a different
specific gravity but what is the liquid? It appears to be less runny
than water.
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 3:57 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Two colors of sand in a liquid
The one I have is indeed colored water. My father-in-law has had to
refresh them using a syringe through the rubber stopper. The two
pieces of glass are very close together and therefore constricts the
movement of sand in the water (turbulence etc.)
Why the sands don't just eventually mix and become a gray blob I have
no idea.
Jim
Antioch IL
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:20 PM
To: JimN at oneac.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Two colors of sand in a liquid
No help from me, but I couldn't resist pointing out that
a gift store in the 2100 block of Alston Way in Berkeley, CA
is going out of business and selling out to the
walls...... And they sure have a lot of Lava Lamps. 50%
off right now, if anyone is seriously searching for a Lava
Lamp.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 1:54 PM
To: Pianoman; WoodWorking
Subject: Re: Two questions, second one...
Howdy David
I had the same thoughts on my work and adding some embellishments through
carving.
With my shop closed down till I get a new one built and until I can get
around a little better I've already had a chance to try my hand at it. Still
have a ways to go but .......
In any case I got three books. In the order I found them of use is
Decorative Woodcarving by Jeremy William's, How to carve Wood by Richard
Blitz, and Woodcarving, a Foundation Course by Zoe Gertner.
I got a relatively inexpensive set of 12 tools from Woodcraft. It comes with
a book also. That particular missive I found absolutely useless. With a
little sharpening the tools work great.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 2:14 PM
To: Pianoman
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Two questions, second one...
Hi David,
You might want to look into *Chip Carving*. It is a simple
technique for decorative carvings and easy to learn from a
book or magazine article.
I do not have a ready reference to pass on, but you could
try *chip carving* in some of the search engines.
10Q,
Moose
From: knm1 at juno.com
Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 3:15 PM
To: dldahl at att.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Two questions, second one...
David:
Check the Kip's Internet Directory, lots of links on carving both by
carvers and those who teach and sell tools. Believe there is almost a
hundred links on carving.
Ken Martin
Dovetails "R" Us
Newport News, Virginia
USA
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:31 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Update on Fayetteville, NC, Shellac Situation
First, I thank everyone for all the help they've given me in finding
Shellac.
Now for the good news: They must have canned (pun intended) the
old paint-department manager at Home Depot, for they now have
Shellac! Zinsser 3-pound Cut Shellac! With a date of manufacture of
November 2, 1998! Less than $6 per quart, which seems reasonable.
They have gallons too, but until I get this Shellac thing down, I think
I'll stick with the little cans.
Well, they have one less can than they did when I went in there. That
one followed me home. SWMBO said I could keep it.
--jmowreader
From: Mike Hatlak [mikehatlak at sprintmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:40 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Veneer Source
Hi All,
Looking for a few goos sources of veneer. I need the more exotic
woods and burls. Anyone got a good, reputable supplier? I am heading to
the Oak list next to see what it has to offer. We will see. Thanks to
all.
best wishes,
mike hatlak
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 9:43 AM
To: Mike Hatlak
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Veneer Source
Mike,
I get most of mine from Certainly Wood in New Jersey.Don't have the
number handy but they advertise in FWW and Woodshop News.They still have
the thick veneer and the quality has always been excellent.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Bill Brady [wmbrady at olg.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:47 PM
To: Mike Hatlak; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Veneer Source
Mike Hatlak Wrote:
>Anyone got a good, reputable supplier?
Constantines, in New York. 1-800-223-8087.
Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who is getting ready for winter... Brrrr
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:38 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Video Tape Storage
Not long ago I received the commission to design and build a rather large
wine rack for a local grocery store and today they called me in to take a
look at another project they have in mind.
When I arrived they explained that their video rental area takes up a lot
of floor space and wish to reclaim the merchandise area. Their present
drawer units that are used to store the tapes are breaking down to the
point where they are falling off the glides and they are 21" deep. This
means with the drawer extended that the amount of floor space needed is
about 5' - 2' with drawer closed then 4' when opened and finally 5' as a
person stands in front of it. In to to the drawer units hold a total of
1600 tapes in a space that is 9' 6" wide, 72" high and 21" deep.
Where they wish to move the video storage area to has a wall space of 11'
in length and my chore is to build something that will fit in that amount
of space and hold the same amount of tapes.
So, the drawer thing is nixed, which leaves me with a type of cabinet and
if this isn't enough, they also want a way to secure them by leaving them
closed during business hours and locked at night.
I thought of bi-pass doors but these will be problematic after extended use
and especially so with careless employees. My next idea was an overhead
door - like a tambour - where I could route a groove into the sides so that
this door could be lifted up and tucked out of the way, allowing entire
access to the cabinet. I thought of using sheet metal because it would be
easy to raise and lower because it would be similar to ducting, just a
heavier gauge. But, the trouble here is how can I keep it from pulling out
of the groove when someone pushes in the center of the door and still be
able to raise it? Use aluminum angle pop-riveted to the sheet metal? How
about dents? Cripes! The more I think about this the more hurdles I
encounter.
Can anyone think of another type of closure system?
Joe
I'm not cheap, but I'm on special this week
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 7:59 AM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Joe,
check out National Products,900 Baxter Ave,Loiusville,KY 41204
502-583-3038 or 800-228-5276
You will be amazes at some of the tambours they manufacture.They will
even make them in colored mirrors.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:49 AM
To: 'Joe Johns'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Video Tape Storage
Joe,
If my quick calculations are right, you need space of 11' x 110" if you were
going to stock the tapes on a shelf type unit, on the short side, to be able
to read the label. This is probably not going to work.
You may be able to save some space by laying them on the long side, label
up. This would work for the space available.
As far as securing the space, what about making the shelf into three
sections, middle to be 50% of the space, centered on the wall, the sides
hinged and would close to the center? Like having the shelf on the inside of
the door.
Zdenek
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:18 AM
To: Joe Johns; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Joe, if you have additional wall space on the side(s) of the video tape
area, you could you install pocket door(s) that open into the adjoining
space. The doors then could be securedwith a simple latch and lock.
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Lori Henderson [lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 10:45 AM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Hi, Joe
A few years ago I saw a picture of a bookshelf unit that was hinged,
with the moving half on wheels, such that it opened to be perpendicular
to the fixed half. Closed, the books face each other.
For the space you have to deal with, I would design two "bookshelves" to
attach to the wall. Each would be about 4'w x 9"d x 66"h (for us
shorties). I would leave 9" clearance either end, and 18" clearance in
the centre of the wall, for the outside cases to swing their ends to. I
would design four more bookshelves the same except only 2' wide. These
would be put on wheels, and hinged to either end of the fixed cases.
Closed, the unit would occupy only 18" or less of floor depth. Open,
less than 3', forming a 3-sided "room" and the person space would be
within that 3'.
By my rough calculations, this double unit would hold close to 2,000
tapes, on their long edge, ends to the front. The clearance space
between the units could hold either more tapes or whatever the store
wanted. I presume that locking the unit would be however you would set
up two centre-meet doors to lock.
Regards,
Lori
From: Roger Hubner [dunwright at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 10:59 PM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Joe Johns wrote:
> Where they wish to move the video storage area to has a wall space of 11'
> in length and my chore is to build something that will fit in that amount
> of space and hold the same amount of tapes.
>
> So, the drawer thing is nixed, which leaves me with a type of cabinet and
> if this isn't enough, they also want a way to secure them by leaving them
> closed during business hours and locked at night.
>
* The existing store fixture is 9.5'x6'x1.75'.
* This relates to almost 100 Cubic Feet.
* If they now hold 1600 tapes; either the new store fixture will need as much
capacity, or it isn't full at 1600.
* The 11 feet criteria is only 1.5 feel of wall s/s more.
* The height is convenient for access at 6'.
As I see it, they should either allot more wall space, or reduce the tape
inventory. Assuming a tape weight of 10 oz apiece, 1600 weigh in at 1000 lbs.
A cabinet proportioned to support the combined weight of the inventory can't
really be compromised too much. There is the aspect of liability on your part
for the damaged tapes and the potential for personal injury.
Can you modify lateral filing cabinets ?
How does the local Blockbuster Video deal with this problem ?
--
Roger
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice, `till you can do it right, the first time.
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:08 PM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Joe;
BIG SNIP !!!
> I thought of bi-pass doors but these will be problematic after extended use
> and especially so with careless employees.
If bi-pass doors will work in your design I suggest spending some extra
money on really good hardware and the doors will roll with no problems
forever. The hardware I would use is from KN Crowder which may be only
available in Canada but I am sure there is an equivalent in the USA.
This hardware has roller units for each top corner of each door with
four rollers per unit. Really it is top quality miniature barn door
track and rollers with the track being a channel with two wheels on each
side for each hanger. The rollers can not come off the track.
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 1:21 PM
To: Joe Johns
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
I didn't note the debth you now have to work with. A
possible might be like the racks I see at Home Depot to hold
lots of little hardware items. It is two deep, with the
front display sliding horizontally to reveal the racks
behind it. The advantage over drawers is no additional
floor space needed for the pull-out. Whatever locking cover
you use locks the depth of two racks at the same time.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 3:16 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
> check out National Products,900 Baxter Ave,Loiusville,KY 41204
>502-583-3038 or 800-228-5276
>You will be amazes at some of the tambours they manufacture.They will
>even make them in colored mirrors.
>Mike Bridges
Let's not forget their Web page.
http://www.nationalproducts.com/
Keith Bohn
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 6:03 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Video Tape Storage
Thanks to all for the good ideas and to those chaps what sent pics and
plans. I think I've settled upon the concept of a design. Once these
units are completed and installed, I'll take pics and provide them for all
to see.
Joe
I'm not cheap, but I'm on special this week
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:11 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wainscoting
How high should wainscoting be off the floor? My initial thought was 30" to
the center... but it looks low. (8' ceilings)
TIA
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:53 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Cheryl & Bill
Subject: Re: Wainscoting
The height of wainscoting varies with the design and purpose
of the room.
In a kitchen it might be the same height as the counter tops
(or the counter back splash) to continue a straight line
around the room. In a dining room it might be the same
height as the dining table, or the chair backs, or at the
same level as a built-in dry sink. In a bedroom it might be
the same height as the headboard of the bed, or level with
the window sills.
None of these suggestions are hard and fast rules. The idea
is to adjust the height of the wainscoting such that it does
not become imposing, but rather an integral part of the
decor. It should continue, or become part of, existing
horizontal lines. By extending existing horizontal lines
you can make a room seem larger than before.
Take a few minutes to make a rough sketch the room's walls,
showing the placement of the furniture, cabinets, windows,
doors, built-ins, stairs, etc. Try to make the sketch as
close to scale as possible. The sketch should show
everything you would see in the room if you were standing
with your back against the opposite wall. (An island would
appear in all four sketches of a kitchen, a table would
appear in all four sketches of a dining room.)
Each wall sketch will then suggest a horizontal line that
will be the least imposing, or the most pleasing to the eye.
Add this line to the sketch very lightly.
Then lay the four sketches side by side, in proper order.
The line will probably be at a different height on each
separate sketch. Now you now can find the compromise line
that represents what is probably the right height for that
room. This line will probably be located between
three-eighths and two-fifths of the height of the wall, from
the floor.
IMHO,
10Q,
Moose
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:50 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wainscoting
>The height of wainscoting varies with the design and purpose
>of the room.
I'm gonna chime in and agree with the Moose Man on this one. One
thing to watch for though is alignment with window stools. You don't
want to. Generally the wainscot cap should be above the stool. The
problem with this is the detail where the cap hits the casing. A back
band on the casing might take care of this.
In our kitchen I put up a tongue and groove V-board and the cap is at
68". We used a plate rail and it looks pretty spiffy. At that height
the little one can't get at the goodies up there and it's just above
eye level for most people.
Keith Bohn
From: Woodman45 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 8:52 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Walker Turner BS
Hi Everyone,
I have a Walker Turner 14" bandsaw that I need parts for. I have contacted
Delta and they sent a list of the parts that they have left, but what I need
is not on the list.
I need the part that the upper wheel mounts on and is used to tension and
track the blade.
Bill
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 4:11 PM
To: Pianoman
Cc: Woodworking
Subject: Re: Walnut
Pianoman wrote:
>
> Folks:
> I'm working on my Christmas list, and am building a couple of doll cradles
> for some neices. For one, I thought I'd try walnut because the store had
> some, and it didn't seem too expensive. Besides, I wanted to broaden my
> horizons. Worked with Oak, Maple, Cherry, Pine, and wanted to expand.
>
> Now, I cut the pieces, glued up my panels, copied the pattern I designed
> from a panel of pine I had on hand. But, before I get too far along I was
> wandering if there was anything I ought to know about finishing walnut. It's
> a gorgeous dark brown now. Use a clear finish (I like Danish oils and Tung
> Oil)? Anything I should watch for as I work on the joints? Sanding? Hand
> planing?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David Dahl
> Appleton WI
American Black Walnut does exceptionally well in "oil". It brings out
the richness of the Chocolate brown color. But if you have or left any
sapwood in the Walnut, that sapwood will look ugly under the oil. A
pastewood pore filler will be helpful. Other than that, there is nothing
special in working Walnut.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Pianoman [dldahl at att.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 2:30 PM
To: Woodworking
Subject: Walnut
Folks:
I'm working on my Christmas list, and am building a couple of doll cradles
for some neices. For one, I thought I'd try walnut because the store had
some, and it didn't seem too expensive. Besides, I wanted to broaden my
horizons. Worked with Oak, Maple, Cherry, Pine, and wanted to expand.
Now, I cut the pieces, glued up my panels, copied the pattern I designed
from a panel of pine I had on hand. But, before I get too far along I was
wandering if there was anything I ought to know about finishing walnut. It's
a gorgeous dark brown now. Use a clear finish (I like Danish oils and Tung
Oil)? Anything I should watch for as I work on the joints? Sanding? Hand
planing?
Thanks!
David Dahl
Appleton WI
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 6:07 AM
To: Pianoman; Woodworking
Subject: Re: Walnut
Howdy David
Personally, and if the application is such that it is practical, I have a
fondness for walnut with a nice hand rubbed tung oil finish.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pianoman <dldahl at att.net>
To: Woodworking <Woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 5:38 PM
Subject: Walnut
>Folks:
>I'm working on my Christmas list, and am building a couple of doll cradles
>for some neices. For one, I thought I'd try walnut because the store had
>some, and it didn't seem too expensive. Besides, I wanted to broaden my
>horizons. Worked with Oak, Maple, Cherry, Pine, and wanted to expand.
>
>Now, I cut the pieces, glued up my panels, copied the pattern I designed
>from a panel of pine I had on hand. But, before I get too far along I was
>wandering if there was anything I ought to know about finishing walnut.
It's
>a gorgeous dark brown now. Use a clear finish (I like Danish oils and Tung
>Oil)? Anything I should watch for as I work on the joints? Sanding? Hand
>planing?
>
>Thanks!
>
>David Dahl
>Appleton WI
>
A thought
From: Tommy [tking at usit.net]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 2:44 AM
To: Pianoman; Woodworking
Subject: RE: Walnut
Hi David,
I use a lot of Walnut myself, When the finishing part comes around, I use
Oil Varnish cut slightly with some thinner, to improve the flow. After
Several coats and light sanding in between you can see yourself in the
finish. Even after a couple of years the finish still looks great.
Good Luck
TK
in Tenn.
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 9:06 PM
To: Ben and Jackie Hobbs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Walnut For Sale
Jackie:
The fellow I was referring to is in Lancaster Penn. What he has is 6"
X 6" by 8' air dried walnut. The last price I saw which was about three
months ago, he was charging around a $1.00 a BF. The guy will ship by
backhaulers and that add another 40 cents a BF to North Carolina.
I have thought about driving up a getting a load as it would be good
for legs. My problem is that being it is air dried it won't match the
color with the 4/4 kiln dried that I normally use and I don't really
have the ability to resaw large quantities of it. If I could find
somone around here to resaw at a reasonable price I might be interested
buying a fair amount. Frankly, I like the color of air dried.
I suspect it is about 300 miles from your place so if your interested
it may be worth the drive. I just changed browsers and don't have the
bookmark, but if your still interested I'll dig it up for you. By the
way there are some other lumber yards in the same area that seem to have
a endless supply of some really prime highly figured woods.
Ken Martin
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Walnut For Sale
>The web site for the walnut is:
>http://www2.dgsys.com/~ckilmer/
I had a funny feeling that this was the "infamous cheap walnut
source". Folks, the stuff shown on this Web page is what's left over
when the good stuff is sawn away. I suspect that the page owner gets
the stuff free or at next to nothing. If you go to the site and click
on the end view you will notice that the majority of this stock has
the pith somewhere in the board. I suppose one could buy some up and
saw their way around the pith to produce some usable 3 1/2" or 6" wide
boards but I for one would rather buy up some good stock from the
git-go. Besides the resulting boards will have very narrow cathedrals
flanked by straight grain. Not near as pretty as the boards that were
sawn for sale as premium grade.
Sorry to bust anyone's bubble and as always, YMMV.
Keith Bohn
From: Tony & Alice Richards [trichards at saltspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: warped top
I have a couple of questions for the group:
1. Should I attach the glued-up top to my oak end table with the concave
side up or down? I suppose it might be more useful with it up. On a serious
note, could I have avoided the cupping by using vertical-grain wood? I've
already planed out the warp once.
2. Can anyone suggest an adequate minimum depth for a mortise and tenon
joint on the rail and stile of a standard size interior or exterior door?
Tony Richards,
Publisher & Editor,
Gulf Islands Driftwood
Your Community Newspaper
& Gulf Islands Online
http://www.gulfislands.net
Salt Spring Island, B.C., Canada
250-537-9933; fax 250-537-2613
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 2:51 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Website ambitions
I am thinking of building a woodworking website. Do we need yet another
woodworking website? I think so, we must do all we can to promote
woodworking in the face of a dying planet and an inane and directionless
world. Let us go back to wood, retreat from the world of 'the full
Lewinsky'. I have built a couple of others like:
http://www.ipw.com/cyprus
http://www.ipw.com/lochness
and my woodworking site will be built to the same standard. Does anyone
have any ideas about what should be included in their ideal site? It is not
intended to compete with any other existing sites, but to provide something
a little different. Perhaps members of this list would like to suggest what
a great site should contain and, looking at my other sites (they are not
commercial) what do you think could be achieved?
Ray
From: Jim & Deb Warman [mechanic at agt.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 3:56 PM
To: Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Website ambitions
Ray,
I think we are almost saturated with "links" type sites. What I would like
to start seeing are sites where we can learn how that individual (the site
owner) approaches woodworking and life in general. A showcase for ones own
projects, ideas, posers...what have you.
IF I ever get around to doing my own page (hey, I'm havin' too much fun
makin' sawdust to worry 'bout throwin' some electrons around) I think I
would dedicate it to my family, my philosiphy, not to mention my woodworking
(well, maybe my day job too).
Just my thoughts on a below freezing, gonna cook supper outside anyway kinda
day.
Jim W.
mechanic at agt.net
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 4:00 PM
To: Pianoman; Tommy; Paul Bonner; wood working
Subject: RE: What are you working on this month
I'm building some birdhouses using WR Cedar, finishing my router table's
lower cabinet, and scrambling to find plans for a sleigh to put Christmas
presents in. SWMBO spotted one at Costco for *only* $59. I couldn't help
but see an excuse to spend $49 on a new doodad for my shop, and $10 for some
wood. Have any of you seen plans for a sleigh that is basically just an
ornamental, fairly big box?
Gary Cavener
Oregon City, OR
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:33 PM
To: L-TheOak
Subject: RE: What are you working on this month
> Howdy again folks!!
> Also every month I make pens on my lathe to
> give away for presents. I use
> bird's eye and tiger maple, along with walnut. What type of
> finish can I use
> on the pens while they are spinning on the lathe??
> Thanks Folks,
> TK
> in
> Tenn.
I use Behlens Turner's Finish followed by the two HUT waxes. It slows
down the finish process to have to wait overnight for the Behlens to
dry, but I think it adds depth to the wood. I just finished a Bloodwood
Parker Twist about 15 minutes ago, which is due for a going away gift on
Thursday. The Behlens really makes the Bloodwood glow.
Mike
------------------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
From: Rick and Liz Walker [rickliz at eos.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:25 AM
To: Paul Bonner; wood working
Subject: Re: What are you working on this month
Well I am not going to get into what should or should not be on the list..
As far as what I am working on, my son's room is a little on the small side
and he was so cramped for room with all the furniture in it so I decided on
a cure for it.. I am building in cabinets (though rough in design) to
replace all the furniture except his bed... He now will have his TV and VCR
on corner shelves so free floor space..he has plenty small base cabinets
with a 22 inch counter top in an L shape with a 45 deg in the corner to make
him some desk space... His computer is in the corner and a keyboard drawer
under the 45 deg...So to make a very long story short... he now has much
much more storage space and much much more free space in his room...This
project is slow developing because I am building it in to save on material
(the wall is the backs) so I have to precut it in the shop but assemble it
in his room.. Now the cabinets are all out of 3/4 a/c plywood painted white
and the edges will be finished with a strip of oak with clear poly...The
doors (all thats left to do) will be simple but joint frames with 1/4 luan
plywood panels...
Well, you asked!! Thats what I am doing now.... Soon as I wrap this up my
wife wants a new (small) coffee table so I am starting to look for simple
plans for that...
Good Woodworking to you all
Rick
"He who laughs last thinks slowest!"
Rick & Lizzy Walker from Ohio
http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/family.html
Rick's Fantasy Football League
http://www2.eos.net/rickliz/
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Bonner <pbonner at enterprise.net>
To: wood working <woodworking at theoak.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 2:53 PM
Subject: What are you working on this month
>
>
>My wife belongs to a mailing list devoted to the subject of cross stitch
>embroidery.
>Each month members post in details of what they are working on, giving
>details of patterns, difficulty, problems etc.
>I thought it may be a good theme for our group. Most of us are working on
>some kind of project and by telling others about it may trigger off others
>to start the same project.
>Exchange of ideas and perhaps plans would follow.
>
>Would it work for us?
>Paul UK
>
>
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:36 PM
To: gdmorgan; Paul Bonner
Cc: wood working
Subject: Re: What are you working on this month
Howdy Geoff
You can probably make up your own wood pulls for the drawers, I think they
would be totally appropriate for a roll top desk design. One of those two
part epoxies would probably be the best way to fasten them on I would think.
The scale being a bit small for any but the tiniest screws.
-----Original Message-----
From: gdmorgan <gdmorgan at vision.net.au>
>Current project is a jewelry box in the form of a roll top desk, my own
>design using primarily Tasmanian Oak. Biggest problem is I can not get
>any drawer pulls to suit so have to make up.
>any ideas?
>Geoff.
>--
>Little Wooden Boxes http://www.vision.net.au/~gdmorgan
>Swansea Coastcare http://www.vision.net.au/~plingard
>
A thought
From: Kurt A. Byfield [kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 10:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: What does "Japanning" mean?
While looking at the rust removal description, I noticed the info on how
you can 're-japan' your plane.
Can someone clue me in as to what this means? Is it that black baked on
finish that many old tools have?
Thanks, Kurt
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
From: Gary L. Yarrow [CM00 at SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 12:57 PM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: What does "Japanning" mean?
>Can someone clue me in as to what this means? Is it that black baked on
>finish that many old tools have?
You answered your own question. it is that black stuff. Its more than
paint, there is a formula for it somewhere, not very complicated, but
I wouldn't do it in the kitchen oven, at least until the turkey and ham
are done!
I'm otta here! See you guys next week.
Gary
=============================================
Gary L. Yarrow
819 Harvey Dunn; Two Herbs Workshop
Brookings, SD 57006
Fledgling Web: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1424/
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:47 AM
To: kbyfield at terracom.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: What does "Japanning" mean?
Kurt,
Right! It's difficult to get the quality of finish the mfgrs are capable
of. I prefer to pretty much leave it alone. Some touch it up, but it
always shows. If it is in poor condition, some remove it all and use any of
several processes to replace it. At this point, we're probably not talking
"collector", but "user".
The "other Gary" knows a bit more about this than I do. Maybe he will have
some info for you.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt A. Byfield [mailto:kbyfield at terracom.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 10:59 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: What does "Japanning" mean?
While looking at the rust removal description, I noticed the info on how
you can 're-japan' your plane.
Can someone clue me in as to what this means? Is it that black baked on
finish that many old tools have?
Thanks, Kurt
--
Kurt Byfield Kbyfield at terracom.Net
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:58 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: What'll Happen? Under-sized Remote Controller
At Costco/Price Club, I picked up a $12 remote control device geared to
turning off and on outdoor Christmas decorations. The device is a small
box with a short cord with a male plug for the outlet and a female
connection for the Christmas lights. (Much better than traipsing in the
cold and wet.)
The package specs list: (a) 15 amp; (b)1800 watts (lights) and (c) 1/3 HP
motor.
What happens if I hook it up to my 16 gal - 5 HP (max) QSP Shop Vac??
Does it just not work?
Does it damage the remote contoller? The vac?
Fire? Short circuits?
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 8:01 AM
To: Robert Methelis; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: What'll Happen? Under-sized Remote Controller
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:57:53 -0500, Robert Methelis wrote:
>The package specs list: (a) 15 amp; (b)1800 watts (lights) and (c) 1/3 HP
>motor.
>
>What happens if I hook it up to my 16 gal - 5 HP (max) QSP Shop Vac??
>Does it just not work?
>
>Does it damage the remote contoller? The vac?
It should not hurt the vac, but it will probably burn out (or weld
the contacts on) on the controller after some on off cycles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: JimN at oneac.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:12 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: What'll Happen? Under-sized Remote Controller
Bob,
Most of these devices use TRIACS or back-to-back SCRs (a chunk of
silicon in the transistor family) to control the AC output of the
device. These, like light dimmers are not designed with the extra
components needed to deal with the inductive kick developed when
switching motor loads. Router speed controls are, and must be used
with universal motors (the ones with brushes - we were just through
this). Your shop vac is a universal motor but before anyone asks the
question - I wouldn't slow it down because the air drawn through is
also used to cool the motor. (we've been through this too)
But there are some that use a standard mechanical relay (us EE's call
'em that because [almost] everything is done now with S&S - Silicon &
Software). I have some X-10 type home controls in my house that used
relays because they replace a standard wall receptacle and you can't
guarantee who'll plug what into it. Because your package specs a motor
rating I would guess it's a relay. Can you hear a "Click-Clunk" when
you turn it on and off? If so, it's a relay and you might have a
chance.
The question is what is that 5HP "max" or "peak" or whatever REALLY?
Check to see if the vac's got a AMP rating on the label. If it's less
than 15 (highly likely since std. receptacles have a 15A rating) you
might have a chance.
Damage?
Well....You'd probably weld the contacts closed so you couldn't turn
it off or pit and char them until you couldn't turn it on anymore. How
many on/off cycles? Who knows. Is $12 worth the experiment to you? I
wouldn't seal it in a closet or out of sight - at least until your
comfortable it's not going to meltdown.
Standard disclaimers, yada yada yada.
Jim
Antioch, IL
From: Joe Johns [woodwork at ronan.net]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:43 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: What'll Happen? Under-sized Remote Controller
BiNJ - neither will happen. I am using exactly that in my shop in exactly
the same capacity. However, mine was purchased from Radio Shack and has no
cord as it plugs directly into the outlet. The specs for mine were also
the same, but it has been running my QSP vacuum just great.
Joe
Curiosity killed the cat...alright, for a while there I was a suspect
URL: http://www.ronan.net/~woodwork
Email: mailto:woodwork at ronan.net
Known on IRC as "Woodchips"
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:39 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Where can I get bandsaw blades for a bowsaw?
I would like some suggestions on where to find bandsaw blades at reasonable
prices. I'm looking for a 6 tpi, 3/4-1" wide bandsaw blade to mount in a
bowsaw. So far I've only found 6 tpi up 1/2" locally and have found very few
companies who carry 6 tpi in in larger widths. Any companies you can
recommend?
The only blades so far in that size range are flexible back blades. I don't
know much about them. Any info on flex back blades?
Thanks for the help,
Rick McQuay
--
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:26 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Where can I get bandsaw blades for a bowsaw?
Try Highland Hardware.
http://highland-hardware.com/catalog/saw2.html
Keith Bohn
From: Rick A. McQuay [rmcquay at mindspring.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 1998 10:58 PM
To: (1)Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Where can I get bandsaw blades for a bowsaw?
Sorry I took so long to get back to everyone, computer problems. Thanks for
the great tips. My only objection to actual bow saw blades was that I
couldn't find any, but Keith pointed me in the right direction.
After looking over their pricing (Highland), I may just purchase a bow saw
instead of making one yet. I'll still make one someday, but at $39.00,
that's almost as cheap as I could make one. Not a bad deal.
Rick McQuay
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:10 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Which Furniture Polish?
Ok, every time (well, almost ever time) my lovely wife "dusts" the
furniture, she gets out the Pledge Furniture Polish and sprays away. I
cringe. But, hey, I'm not doing the dusting, so I keep my mouth shut about
how she does it.
Assuming Pledge is badness, (and I think it is badness because it leaves a
glossy, somewhat oily feeling residue even after being wiped off), if I were
to sneak into the grocery store or Wal-Mart, what should I buy to replace
the Pledge? Or, can the proper polish even be found at these stores? Or,
should something other than a spray polish be used?
The items in question are end and coffee tables, which are store purchased,
so we're talking veneer over wood products. (Basset brand to be specific,
if that makes a difference.)
And, more generally, does the finish of a piece of furniture dictate or
influence how it should be "maintained?" (I'm not talking repair actions,
just maintenance)
Should anything be done to these already "pledged" surfaces in terms of
reversing anything that shouldn't have been done?
Thanks, Todd Burch. (Somebody tell me when I ask my quota of questions)
From: Cheryl & Bill [ridenour at wilmington.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 8:08 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
I am not an expert on maintaining finishes... but I understand that the
"dusting" products only put a temporary oil film on the furiture that
quickly evaporates, ultimately leaving nothing behind.
IMHO... finishes of poly-u, lacquer, shallac and such need only to be kept
clean to maintain them... Oil finishes do well with annual re-oiling, and
wax finishes require re-application semi-annually or annually (along with a
cleaning).
Bill Ridenour
Toucan Furniture
(Free advise is worth every penny)
From: Bill Hartmann [billh at tfs.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:13 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
Todd
According to Flexnor's "Understanding Wood Finishes" There is no need
to use polish or to "feed" or "moisturize" the wood.
They only need an ocasional paste wax application. The paste wax
provides a slight wear layer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hartmann
Lake Tapawingo, MO (near Kansas City)
billh at tfs.net
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:29 AM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
My preference is for butchers or min wax paste waxes thinned with mineral
spirits, two or three coats applied and buffed every couple of months. And,
because it makes me feel good, stripping the wax with naphtha every once in
a great while and rewaxing. I also think that a good paste wax increases
the sense of depth in even the finest of furniture while providing some
extra protection from the normal everyday air bound guck that tends to
settle on things.
Since wax dissolves and blends with previous coats and the action allows you
to wipe off most of the grunge that collects It's almost impossible to build
up to much wax on your furniture since you usually wipe away most of
everything that is there when you buff. However, I like this last step
because, to me, there is always a certain amount of grunge that doesn't get
removed and this will build up over time and take away from the luster of
the waxed surface and start to make your finish look a but muddy.
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
You are correct, Pledge is badness.
Go back to the paint section and you shall find little bottles of
"Formby's
Lemon Oil." Note that the liquid inside is golden in color; that's
suggestive
of the price of the item. This stuff ain't cheap. However, it doesn't
contain
silicones, which are the bad things in furniture polishes--they clog up
your
wood and make it hell to refinish it, if ever that becomes necessary.
Buy some of that and a little spray bottle and give that to your wife. It
even has a nice smell.
>The items in question are end and coffee tables, which are store purchased,
>so we're talking veneer over wood products. (Basset brand to be specific,
>if that makes a difference.)
The "wood products" generally means either ugly wood or particle board.
If it's ugly wood, you just need to worry about the glue holding the
veneer
to the ugly wood coming loose. If particle board, you need to worry more
about the glue holding the little pieces of sawdust together.
>And, more generally, does the finish of a piece of furniture dictate or
>influence how it should be "maintained?" (I'm not talking repair actions,
>just maintenance)
Yeah, but the kinds of finishes that are applied to furniture at the
factory
are generally fast-drying sprayable ones--lacquer, IOW. Lemon oil and
Minwax or Johnson's paste wax--NOT car wax!--will be fine.
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:03 PM
To: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
tburch at cdbsoftware.com wrote:
>
> Ok, every time (well, almost ever time) my lovely wife "dusts" the
> furniture, she gets out the Pledge Furniture Polish and sprays away. I
> cringe. But, hey, I'm not doing the dusting, so I keep my mouth shut about
> how she does it.
Well Todd, you've got balls! You say you know enough to keep your mouth
shut, but you're going to interfere anyhow. Good luck to you.
Bill Ridenour was right about "...need only to be kept clean to maintain
them." Unfortunatly, a damp cloth eventually puts on a haze which Women
are not happy with.
Jim Mowreader is right about Silicone. (It (silicone) puts on a film
though). He's also right that it makes it "hell to refinish". In fact,
it (silicone) actually can deteriorate some finishs through softening.
Mike G's comment about paste wax is also right. But Paste wax, which
gives the best protection, is the most difficult to properly apply and
buff out. I don't think you will find very many households in which a
machine buffer is used after an application. Hand buffing is hard, hard
work and the work is often stopped short.
In actual use, a half teaspoon on paste wax can do a complete house of
furniture. And whats more on hard use items, 3-4 times a year gives max
protection. In reality, it doesn't happen. It gets applied much more
often, 10 times the quantity and seldom gets buffed out--which will
cause wax build up.
Which is why there are polish's. Polish's are much easier to apply; rag
wipe off easily; but require more frequent applications (they don't have
as much paste wax protection quality) as paste wax. Oily type liquid
polish's, such as "old english" are usally applied too thick and not
wiped off adequately. (The dark color is simply a stain)
The best polish's in my opinion are those which have a small amount of
cleaner in them. The last mfr of such a polish that I'm aware of, is now
defunct. The next best available are the whiteish liquid Creamy type
polish's. Such as Wymans, Guardsman, Oz and etc. Those are generally
available at most food markets.
Please note I made no references to "lemon polish's" as I have no
comment either good or bad. Usually a few drops of Lemon oil are added
for aroma, and lemon oil is acidic, although mild.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 6:29 PM
To: Jim Mowreader
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
I'm popping in here off-thread only because paste-wax
was mentioned.
I just had my first encounter with paste-wax. Jonstons
(I think--I'm now too drunk to figure out the spelling or
walk down three flights to see the can) was the brand--a
very common floor/furnature/whatever household brand. I got
it to wax the MDF assembly table in my shop so that glue and
polyurethane, etc., could be popped off and leave the table
flat (lacking bumps of glob) for the next job. (Tests
indicate this use is working.)
WHAT A SMELL!! It seems that paste wax is wax mixed
with some solvent, and this one was a really stinky
petrolium product. It sure chased the roaches away! (As we
used to say when I lived in NYC.)
Given that almost any solvent can soften wax, and that
some solvents evaporate quickly, it seems to me that making
one's own paste wax (perhaps in a kitchen blender? ---
perhaps providing the blender is never ever used for
anything else...) is not impossible and perhaps
advantagous. It might give less smell, and also permit
introduction of dyes....
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 4:02 AM
To: gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; Jim Mowreader; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
I have a Porter Cable ROS and bought their accessory lambs wool buffer
and was not very pleased with it. I then bought a cheap buffer from the
local auto parts store designed for polishing cars and it works better.
Ken Martin
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 4:20 AM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: gcavener at teleport.com; Jim Mowreader; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
Ken Martin wrote:
>
> I have a Porter Cable ROS and bought their accessory lambs wool buffer
> and was not very pleased with it. I then bought a cheap buffer from the
> local auto parts store designed for polishing cars and it works better.
>
> Ken Martin
Ken,
If you're describing the 12" diameter or so orbital buffer, has a handle
on each side and looks like any commonly seen upside down alien
spacecraft, it works, but very poorly. Because of it's overall slow
speed (not the spacecraft) the time it takes to buff an item is very
long and the amount of gloss that can be had is very limited.
For anything more serious, a barely but adequate buffer is available
from Sears for about $50.-$70.00, has a high and low speed and noisy
gear box. This low cost machine looks just like the high speed expensive
buffers that auto body shops use but is slower and smaller. It can
compound rub out finish's, but alas...are glossy.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 7:20 AM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: Ken Martin; gcavener at teleport.com; Jim Mowreader; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
I use a Millwaukee 7" polisher with a dial speed control and it works
very well.It will buff out a finish or wax with a minimum amount of
effort but does take some practice.Cost is around $190 but if you are
serious about your finishes it's the way to go.
Mike Bridges
http://www.mikescustomww.com
From: Jim Mowreader [qxd at foto.infi.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Furniture Polish?
I was just musing...what I actually use is an air-powered buffer I bought
to
use after I paint the car.
I'm still waiting to paint the car, but you should see what this thing
does
on furniture!
From: Zdenek Mestenhauser [mts0251 at ibm.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 6:17 AM
To: Jerry Johnston
Cc: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Which Jointer?
Jerry,
I compared the Jet and Delta last winter and ended up buying the Jet. In
my opinion, it has a lot better fence, which is very important in a
jointer. If not the key to accuracy.
I am still happy and would do it again, unless I had the space and money
to go to a combination machine - jointer/planer. That at 12" would be my
first choice.
Zdenek in Minneapolis, MN USA
Jerry Johnston wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> SWMBO wants me to get a jointer. Actually I told her I wanted
> to buy a drill press or a jointer. She said why not buy both?
> What a lady! I have decided on the Delta 17-900 drill press
> which I can get for $279 locally.
>
> I am trying to make up my mind between the Delta and Jet 6 inch
> jointers. That is, the ones with beds about 45 inches long.
> Your advice and shared experiences will be much appreciated.
>
> Jerry Johnston
>
> San Ramon, CA USA (30 miles east of San Francisco)
>
> Formerly of Matawan, NJ; Lakewood, NJ; Charlottesville, VA;
> Charles Town, WV; Elberon, NJ; East Brunswick, NJ; Salem, VA;
> Manitou Springs, CO; Winfield, KS; Clarksville, TN and Gobblers
> Knob, VA, roughly in that order.
From: Moose and Betty (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Why does my sabersaw......
I hate my portable, hand held, jigsaw/sabersaw (sabresaw?)+ACEAIQ-
I have, over the many years past, had many misadventures
with portable jigsaws (often called sabersaws). I can not
seem to get the thing to cut a workpiece close to square.
It goes around the scribed curves as I guide it from the
top, but I always find that the cut at the bottom of the
piece has wandered to one side or the other making the cut
far from square to either surface. I have resorted to
cutting with the jigsaw far from the indented spot, then
sanding a lot of wood with a spindle sander in the drill
press. There has to be a better way. I have watched the
jigsaw blade from the bottom of the workpiece and observed
that it flaps wildly from side-to-side, which explains why I
break a lot of blades long before I dull them.
It does not seem to make a difference as to what material I
am cutting. I get the same dissatisfactory results with 3/4
inch softwood as well as 1/4 inch plywood ......or Plexiglas
......or particle board .....or masonite.
Is this normal? I think not.
What am I doing wrong?
10Q,
Moose...........SWMBO is about to experience her first real
Fall season in Idaho. (She has spent her entire life living
in the sun belt, from Ranger, Texas+ADs- through Parker,
Arizona+ADs- to the deserts of Southern California.) The real
Spring was like watching someone come out of a coma.
From: Donald Weisman (by way of Stephen Bigelow <steveb at sentrol.com>) [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:29 PM
To: bigelos at teleport.com
Subject: Re: Why does my sabersaw......
You may not be doing anything wrong!
Thats always been a problem with them and mfrs have addressed it. Some
with more success than others. There was an article in FWW 3-5 years ago
which specifically zero'd in on that problem and Bosch best as I can
remember (or want to remember) had the best going for it by
incorporating a guide. Others had a guide or sumpin too, but Bosch
worked very well...or better.
I don't know what material (any/all I suspect) you're cuting; nor what
mfr's saw; nor if you are using the correct blade for the material; or
even if your blade is too worn or not; or even if you are using a bent
blade! Any or all of which will contribute to the problem. Of course in
the best of conditions, the thicker the material, the more deflection
will occur regardless of whose hand portable unit you have and what
quality blade.
I happen to have the Bosch, and it's a lot better than my previous
"other" mfr.and it cost much more, so it should be. But it still
deflects... . We don't regard it as a "finish cut machine" and it
doesn't disappoint us. :-)
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 1:38 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Why old equipment
Thanks to those who have responded re.: Old Equipment. So far no one has
offered any reasons *why* the old machines are desireable. Outside of the
list, however, here's what I dug up:
1) There was a lot more iron and steel used in the older machines, making
them a) wear longer b) vibrate less.
2) The motors were repulton/induction "repultion/induction" rather than
capacitor type. These old motors have much heavier windings and are alleged
to produce more hp and tq. I am not knowledgeable in electricity et al., and
so depend on specialists' assessments or what someone was told by a
specialist; i.e., don't ask me to explain motors.
A contractor in my area said that even at $850 he would gladly buy an old
table saw of this type as it would be a better machine than his new $1,600
table saw.
So far it seems that I should consumate the proposed monetary transaction as
soon as possible.
-Steve DiGiacomo
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:45 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Why old equipment
Pretty much the answer to all your points is agreed, all right, aye,
OK (or okay), okeydoke, yea, yep, assuredly, certainly, gladly,
willingly; undoubtedly, unquestionably beyond a doubt, beyond any
shade (or shadow) of doubt, with all my heart, without the least
doubt, exactly, precisely and in other words, yes.
Oh, one thing to watch for is parts that aren't available. This would
have to be an old tools Achilles heel. I'm not talking about bearings
as for the most part they are still readily available. I'm talking
about castings that may be broken beyond repair, too expensive to have
reproduced or missing. Keep in mind that a good machinist could make
about any old dog shine when it comes to running good.
You will also have to justify any time you have in restoring any old
tool. This is a pretty facile victory for me as I am a lover of old
tools.
In closing I reeeeeeeealy think you need to send me a list of what
this cache is made up of and the phone number of the seller so I can
make sure you aren't getting taken.
Just watching your six my man.
Keith Bohn
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 4:05 PM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Why old equipment
Just because a piece of equipment is old does not necessarily mean it's
a better working machine. Most old machiniery is industrial. Many are
completely worn out. Parts for many are unavailable at any cost. Many
need to be re-built from the floor up. Conversions to single phase power
is common, plus motor costs which probably doesn't fit the mountings
necessitating even more custom machining just to turn it on and find out
how good the babbitt bearings are. Another not to fun thing.
There are Co. who specialize in all of the above...but the cost is ultra
high. But you could get lucky if you know what to look for, as there is
old machiniery around that doesn't need the bad scenerio I just painted.
In that case, old machiniery probably will produce better and more
accurate work than anything you dreamed of.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: Mike Orr [morr at beeline.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 8:50 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Window Valance
Hello All,
I could use a little guidance with regard to an upcoming project that I'm going to undertake.
I want to build and install some wooden window valances on the windows in my kitchen eating area. There are five 4 ft wide windows and a 6 ft patio door to be worked on.
As the kitchen cabinets are oak it makes sense to use the same wood for the valances.
My question is should I use solid oak, oak faced plywood or oak faced mdf? What would the advantages of each be in this situation and what thickness of material would be appropriate?
Thank you for your input.
Mike
Grand Valley
Ontario, Canada
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:23 AM
To: morr at beeline.ca; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Window Valance
Hello Mike.
Thicknesses and types may depend on what particular style you are dealing
with.
My grandfather made all the valances for his house. He made, basically, a
three side "box" (front and two sides) made out of 1/4" ply, then put
blocking on the inside corners and on the inside of the sides where they met
the wall for mounting. Looks great, even after 50 years. He cut a
sweeping arc on the lower edge of the front, kinda-sorta like a curly
bracket "{" on its side, so the point pointed down, but not so flat, if you
can picture what I mean. He used the same design on each window, and just
scaled it down or up depending on the width of the window. I guess they all
had a top to them too, otherwise dust would get through.
I'd use 1/4" oak ply myself too. Low cost, light, but strong enough. And,
it you ever decided to upolster over it, putting cloth over plywood is not
as regretful as putting cloth over solid oak. If you are going to put
plants or knick-knacks on top the valance, you might beef up the sides to
3/4" ply, not MDF though, and 1/2" for the top, depending on how much weight
they will be holding.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
----------
>Hello All,
>I could use a little guidance with regard to an upcoming project that I'm
>going to undertake.
>I want to build and install some wooden window valances on the windows in
my
>kitchen eating area. There are five 4 ft wide windows and a 6 ft patio door
to
>be worked on.
>As the kitchen cabinets are oak it makes sense to use the same wood for the
>valances.
>My question is should I use solid oak, oak faced plywood or oak faced mdf?
>What would the advantages of each be in this situation and what thickness
of
>material would be appropriate?
>Thank you for your input.
>Mike
>Grand Valley
>Ontario, Canada
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:46 AM
To: Mike Orr; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Window Valance
Mike,
I would use 1/2" oak plywood. Oak veneered MDF would be too heavy. Solid
oak would be expensive and subject to warping.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Orr [mailto:morr at beeline.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 8:50 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Window Valance
Hello All,
I could use a little guidance with regard to an upcoming project that I'm
going to undertake.
I want to build and install some wooden window valances on the windows in
my kitchen eating area. There are five 4 ft wide windows and a 6 ft patio
door to be worked on.
As the kitchen cabinets are oak it makes sense to use the same wood for
the valances.
My question is should I use solid oak, oak faced plywood or oak faced mdf?
What would the advantages of each be in this situation and what thickness of
material would be appropriate?
Thank you for your input.
Mike
Grand Valley
Ontario, Canada
From: Richard Bienvenu [histzut at showme.missouri.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 12:19 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Winter Storage of Cedar Siding
I am about to take delivery of some 700 lineal feet of 1x6 bevelled cedar
siding and need to store it over the winter, the earth having made its way
around the sun before I was able to do more than begin residing my aged
farm house.
I will be storing the boards in an unheated "garage:" an old bulding meant
for Model T's with a dirt floor. I intend to make sure that the strapped
bundles are well-supported on brackets of 2x4 stock, every two feet or so,
and placed 3-4 feet above the ground.
My questions: aside from keeping the rain off these very expensive boards
and perhaps placing some plastic or building paper on the ground beneath
the brackets (which is bone dry, anyway), are there other precautions I
should take? E.g., would it make sense to end prime all of the bundles, or,
even--temperatures permitting--prime all of the boards back and front?
(I'll be doing that in the spring, anyway.)
Would it make sense to turn the bundles over every two or three weeks?
Or , am I being paranoid? The boards cost effectively $1.00/lineal foot and
I don't want to mal treat them and lose some $700.00
Thanks,
Richard Bienvenu
From: Glenn Chapman [gchapman at mps.org]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:35 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wiping my feet
Greetings,
I got the air cleaner going and my shop vac is sucking away, what I heed
now is some way to wype my feet. I run a dorm and my shop is a basement
room. When I walk from my shop I leave a slick trail of saw dust on the
tile floor which the janitor does not find amusing (worse than SWMBO).
I've thought of a Mr. Rodgers sort of shoe changing. Is there some sort of
tacky floormat or something?
Thanks,
Glenn
From: Bob Kelland [bkelland at roadrunner.nf.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 12:04 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; Glenn Chapman
Subject: Re: Wiping my feet
Hi Glenn,
I've given some thought to developing an idea that could serve your purpose.
The gist of the idea is to have a low flat box with a mesh or grid for the
top. The box would be located on the floor near your shop exit door. The
dust collector or shop vacuum would connect to the box and be activated by a
pressure switch when your are standing on the box. Light stomping and/or
scuffing of your feet would free the sawdust from your shoes to be collected
by the vacuum.
Thats as far as I've gotten with the idea and I have to say it is waaay down
my current list of things to be done.
Bob Kelland
St. John's, Newfoundland
From: Sharon Bannister [captain at silcom.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:30 PM
To: Bob Kelland
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com; Glenn Chapman
Subject: Re: Wiping my feet
Bob,
This has all the ear marks of becoming another "how to invent a better pencil
sharpener" on the oak list. I'm sure there must be a way to make this activate
the shop vac from some sort of pressure switch activated only when you step on
the collection pad (box). Of course this would have to be adjustable and
calibrated periodically to accomodate those of lesser volume (people I mean, not
shop vacs).
: )
Sharon
From: G.K.Engelstad [harley at sk.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 5:13 PM
To: Glenn Chapman
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wiping my feet
Hello Glenn,
I am very particular about having a clean shop so this may seem a
little over board. I have the front 1/3 0f my shops floor covered with a
low pile carpet. I use this area as an assembly area only. All cutting
and shaping of stock is done in the back 2/3 of the shop where I have
1/2 inch rubber matting on the floor. The carpet in my assembly area
works well as a collector of saw dust on the immediate part where you
first step on to it from the matted area. The carpet cleans very easily
with a couple of strokes with a good stiff long bristled push broom. I
rarely vaccum the carpet in my assembly area because the majority of the
saw dust is removed from my feet when I first step on the carpet. With a
few backward draws on the push broom towards the matted area and the
clean up is as simple as vaccuming the matt area.
I suggest you try a 4 - 8 ft piece of a good quaility carpet runner
(the kind you would place in a tile entry) that has a tapered rubber
edge to prevent curling up and creating a trip hazard. At my local
building centre this matting cost about $3.50 /ft and generally comes in
a 32 inch width.
I use carpet and rubber mating because of the ease on the feet when
standing on hard surface for long periods of time.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wiping my feet
Why not a brush type thing you find out side the pro-shop at golf
courses.
If you have a few old scrub brushes - you can flip them up side down and
glue
them to some thing.
I'd probably include a short (3ft) broom there too - why? I always have
dust
on my pants leg up to my knees - it's not just on my feet.
From: Paul Bonner [pbonner at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 1:40 PM
To: wood working
Subject: Wiping my Feet
Still on the same theme.
This is something I posted at another time in another place.
Flame me if you must, but as I am flame proof, bomb proof and bullet proof,
I don't care.
" Where's all that saw dust on the living room floor come from" my
wife asked?.
What a bloody fool question, she knows where it came from. Me.
Saw dust has caused me more problems than Loose women, Booze or
Gambling ever could, in fact they may have been a more peaceful hobby than
Woodturning where she's concerned.
I get blamed when saw dust blocks up the washing machine filter.
I get blamed when it gets in the bath.
I get blamed because the car is full of the stuff.
And I get particularly blamed when she finds it in the bed. I tried to
convince her that it wasn't me, but I think we are the only ones that
sleep in it, ( I don't think even she would be stupid enough to get involved
with another woodworker) I lost that one.
I was going to say she did it , but she hasn't been in my work shop
For years.
"I hate the smell of the place", she says.
I keep a can of cellulose thinners open and thats the smell she hates
And it keeps her away. Bit like Garlic and vampires I suppose.
I some times wonder how it gets into some of the places it does, I
know how it gets in my eyes, ears, up my nose but how the hell does it get
into
my Y fronts.
No matter how closed my outer clothing is I always finish up with it
in my underpants and it's flaming uncomfortable.
I have found a way of getting rid of the stuff and that is to turn it
Into compost for the garden. Heres how you do it. 3/4 fill a black bin bag
with saw dust and shavings then dampen it with 1/2 gal of water and then,
and this is the secret,
take a leak on it. This starts the composting process, seal the top of the
bag and
store it for a year. The result, good usable compost.
And don't try to tell me that we all haven't taken a leak into some
container or other
in the workshop when things got a bit desperate and we're covered in
sawdust
and dare not go into the house!
Paul
From: Frederik Fouillade [frederik at gorge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:30 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wood for chime
Group,
Question: Anyone recalls what woods are used for Marimbas and wooden
Xylophones, aside from the bamboo kind? Any musicians out there?
My last coffee cup had a surprise laying on the dry bottom. There, laid
the esquisse of a new project. It's a giant wood Windchime suspened on
a central column. That chime acts as a Xylophone and is actuated by a
downward spiralling octobranched crown of Felt balls, attached to light
carbon fiber arms (have a load of these from windsurfing), which hits
the planks in rapid succession as it drops. Will go back up with a firm
stomp on a foot air-pump.
Just an idea for an original prop.
Frederik
From: John McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 6:42 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wood Moisture
I'm putting up a shed to store some of my wood to make more room in my
shop. It will be dry but not heated. Our winters drop to 30-40 below.
Has anyone had any experience in moving wood from cold places to heated
places and how that affects the wood. Should it be brought in for a few
days to adjust to the temperature before using the wood?
John, 40 miles north of Minnesota
From: Donald Weisman [abacus at pdq.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 4:58 PM
To: cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wood Moisture
John,
Since cold air contains less humidity than warm air, the boards will
"grow" as they warm up.
All wood when a temperature or humidity swing is involved, should always
be permitted to acclimate when constructing anything critical. Assuming
it's critical, the big question is: for how long and how! Without
instruments, how long is just a guessing game. It could be anywhere's
from a day to a month. The specie and thickness are relative also. How?
Thats easier. Stack flat and with stickers, just as if you were air
drying the wood. With some circulation added, it will even shorten the
guessed acclimation time.
--
Don Weisman
Abacus Furniture Repair
From: MRASP at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 7:44 PM
To: abacus at pdq.net
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wood Moisture
Hey Don.-- This is the first time I've seen a recommendation to use stickers
when simply storing wood to acclimatize it.My hard wood supplier said I should
stack the material, supported all along the length by a piece below and above
.As he stores the material in his shop. I must admit ,my experience with his
method has been less than a success. I get a significant amount of bowing and
some cupping in some pieces,(not all).
I will definitely try the sticker idea on the next job,starting in a few
weeks; so the material will be bought in the next few days. Is the intent to
continue the circulation of air around the material as though it were drying?
Won't this seriously effect the moisture level in the wood?
I would appreciate any comments from all you guys :)
Bob A --- Indiana
mrasp at aol.com
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 8:29 AM
To: Paul RICHARD; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Wooden Bed Plans?
Paul,
I'd try Rockler (used to be The Woodworkers Store) at http://www.rockler.com
They have plans and hardware that is probably exactly what you're looking
for.
Gary Cavener
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul RICHARD [mailto:TPWDOM#c#TPWDOM.TPWPUR#c#RICHARPA at gov.ns.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 7:47 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wooden Bed Plans?
I want to build a wooden bed, including headboard, footboard and framing to
hold a queen size boxspring and mattress. I'm wondering where I could find a
variety of styles and associated plans to choose from. I want to stay away
from styles with heavy posts or tall posts ( no canopy bed styles). I plan
to build it with hardwood and have access to a neighbour's table saw.
Any ideas on where I can secure plans??
Paul Richard
Halifax, Nova Scotia
From: Stacy Boncheff [bonch at ipa.net]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 9:17 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: FW: Wooden Bed Plans?
Take a look at the following location.
http://www.augusthome.com/Plans/cherybed.htm
This bed can also be made of oak, walnut, etc. Also available are several
other plans for nightstands, dressers, chest of drawers, etc.
The plans can be downloaded online for $5.95 in PDF format. Very useful and
easy to follow plans. They were previously published in WoodSmith magazine.
You can also order the back issue and get other plans and helpful hints if
you want to wait for the magazine to arrive in the mail.
Good luck and let me know what you decide. I am planning on building a
bedroom set over time for my daughter and give it to her when she gets
married.
Stacy
From: Paul RICHARD [TPWDOM#c#TPWDOM.TPWPUR#c#RICHARPA at gov.ns.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 7:47 AM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wooden Bed Plans?
I want to build a wooden bed, including headboard, footboard and framing to hold a queen size boxspring and mattress. I'm wondering where I could find a variety of styles and associated plans to choose from. I want to stay away from styles with heavy posts or tall posts ( no canopy bed styles). I plan to build it with hardwood and have access to a neighbour's table saw.
Any ideas on where I can secure plans??
Paul Richard
Halifax, Nova Scotia
From: Terry Godfroy [tgodfroy at sprint.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 3:20 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wooden Bed Plans?
Hello
here is a site for books, on different bedroom furniture.
hope it helps
http://www.discount-books.com/bedrmpl.htm
Terry
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 5:56 PM
To: Paul RICHARD; Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Wooden Bed Plans?
Paul,
I build one like that about a year ago, and you can see the result at:
http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bed.jpg <http://www.theoak.com/zdenek/bed.jpg>
I have the AutoCad file, where are all the dimensions, if you are
interested. The design is my own, derived from bunch of catalogs and
adjusted for the tools I had available. Let me know if you can use the file
and I could email it.
I am still thinking about writing how I made the project and what I learned
in process, but do not have the time right now.
Zdenek
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 7:37 AM
To: email
Subject: woodtek
Anyone familiar with Woodtek brand of taiwan equipment sold by
Woodworkers Supply? any comments good or bad? I need another 8" joiner
and the woodtek is about 700 bucks cheaper than Delta.
thanks
From: C.E.(Chuck)Ring [cring at concentric.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 6:29 AM
To: Bill Yarborough; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodtek
Bill,
I have their 15" planer, their MatchMaker setup and their floor model
combination disk/belt sander. I've no experience with the equipment you're
contemplating, although I do have the Delta DJ-20. My Delta (or at least a
large part of it) was manufactured in Taiwan. All of the tools, including the
Delta have given me more than adequate long-term service.
It would be nice if you could actually examine the WoodTek and check for
accuracy of the castings and general fit and finish.
Here's a URL for American Woodworker's evaluation of ten 8" jointers:
http://www.americanwoodworker.com/shop_tests/58/shop_test.htm
When you're through with that you might want to swing over to:
http://209.122.88.33/ArticleSearch/visitsearch.htm and key in the keyword
"jointer" for eleven more articles on jointers or jointer related
tips/techniques.
Chuck
--
C.E.(Chuck) Ring
Edgewood, New Mexico USA
http://www.abq-sfe.com/enchant
http://www.woodworking.org
From: Ron Winger [rwinger at wyoming.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 7:28 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodtek
Bill,
I have not used the woodtek jointer, but I did see one set up on the sales
floor in Casper.
Seems on first drool to be a well built machine....heavy enuff you won't
have to chase it around, that's for sure.
The fence is center mounted, and I seem to recall a dust collection port.
I do remember the bed was quite long, compared to the 50 year old
MonkeyWards 4" job I use.
Not an endorsement, no affiliation....just a casual observation from one
who's got about as close to an 8" jointer as he's gonna get.
FWIW, I do have a Woodtek belt/disk machine (the small cheap one)....first
one had a faulty motor....they replaced it, freight at their expense, right
away. The second one works beautifully...now if I could find more time to
use it.
And ya gotta remember, they chose Green and yeller paint....if it looks
like a Deere........
Regards,
Ron Winger
At 07:37 AM 11/15/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Anyone familiar with Woodtek brand of taiwan equipment sold by
>Woodworkers Supply? any comments good or bad? I need another 8" joiner
>and the woodtek is about 700 bucks cheaper than Delta.
>thanks
>
From: Ken Martin [knm at widomaker.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: woodturning
Need some advise from the woodturner out there. I recently aquired a
used lath and the basic woodworking tools. The tools were inexpensive
when new and I quickly learned that they require sharpening often. My
first attempts using this equipment quickly identified that I need some
education. Need some recommendations on some good references to get
started with. Also need some advice on tuning up a lathe for the best
performance. Thanks!
Ken Martin
From: Graham McCulloch [graham at shortcuts.ns.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:31 AM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodturning
Ken;
Without question, the book by Leonard Lee (he owns Lee Valley Tools) is
the best on sharpening tools. It's published by Sterling.
Graham
From: Marc & Linda Tovar [mltovar at ntr.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:40 AM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodturning
Hi Ken
Just got off the phone with "Woodworkers Discount Books". Ordered a Video
($16) called "Woodturning" by Stubbs. Supposedly you will learn about:
cutting tool types and modification of standard tools, grinding and honing
chisels, gripping various turning tools, modifying a standard lathe, etc.
Phone number is 1-800-378-4060, or email them at
orders at discount-books.com
http://discount-books.com
Marc Tovar
Layton, UT
From: Chuck Steger [IMCEAEX-_O=INFOA_OU=MAILGATE1_CN=RECIPIENTS_CN=CSTEGER at mailgate1.infoa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:34 AM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: woodturning
Ken,
I absolutely agree with Graham. It's on excellent book on sharpening
*everything*. And to avoid making this a "me too" post ........
I made some jigs to fit my grinder and my stationary vertical sander.
I use the vertical sander much, much more than the grinder (I use
aluminum oxide wheels on the grinder). A lot of experienced woodturners
will tell you to grind by hand, and that may very well be the way to go,
but I love using the jig on the sander. I set it up to grind a certain
angle (depending on the tool being used) and all I have to do is step
over to the sander and touch up the tool. It takes all of 10 seconds. I
use cheaper turning tools as I haven't upgraded to the better stuff yet.
I have to sharpen more often but it is painless the way I have it set
up. Changing the angle of the tool is as easy as adjusting the jig.
I have the Richard Raffan videos and books to inspire me but have a
ways to go to get that good! There are lots of turning videos (as have
been posted) but Raffan's is a good one.
Chuck
Warrenton, Virginia USA
NOTE: Reply to: chuck.steger at erols.com
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 11:32 AM
To: Bruce Gowens; Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodturning
Howdy Bruce, all
Perhaps you should add, for the sake of those just starting out and
especially for those with lower quality steel tools I.E. high carbon as
opposed to HSS, that using a grinder or belt sander, and the relative high
speed and coarseness of the method requires extreme care on the part of
beginners so that they do not draw the temper of the tool and ruin it.
From: Bruce Gowens [bgowens at home.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 3:05 AM
To: Ken Martin
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodturning
As to sharpening lathe knives (gouges, whatever they
are called), my woodworking shop teacher said he got his
technique from an old-time turner who got his from an
old.... Anyway, we sharpen the tools on a belt sander. It
works.
From: Jean Montambeault [jrm at videotron.ca]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 3:25 PM
To: Mike G.
Cc: Bruce Gowens; Ken Martin; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: woodturning
"Mike G." wrote:
>
> Howdy Bruce, all
>
> Perhaps you should add, for the sake of those just starting out and
> especially for those with lower quality steel tools I.E. high carbon as
> opposed to HSS, that using a grinder or belt sander, and the relative high
> speed and coarseness of the method requires extreme care on the part of
> beginners so that they do not draw the temper of the tool and ruin it.
>
Just to make sure this information isn't misinterpreted :
- The coarser the grit the *less* heat generated in sharpening.
- The belt sander is usually cooler than the grinder, even the white
stones.
Jean M.
From: Danny E. Cook [dcook01 at mail.win.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 7:19 PM
To: woodworking
Subject: Re: woodturning
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Montambeault <jrm at videotron.ca>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: woodturning
> - The coarser the grit the *less* heat generated in sharpening.
>
> - The belt sander is usually cooler than the grinder, even the white
>stones.
Correctamundo, on both counts. However, things can still get away from you
real quick. Carbon steel will heat up quick. Keep a container of water at
hand to dunk that gouge every few seconds, and use a light touch when
applying that tool to your sharpener (which ever type you use). A judicial
finger placement close to the where the tool meets "the road" will tell you
when heat is building up. The HSS can take a bit more pressure at the
grinder, but it's susceptible too. No matter the system you use, belt or
stone, keep a light touch for a short period of time. Now, if you want to
talk a wet grinder, well, that's another kettle of fish. Opps, sorry, this
isn't the "fishing list".
From: Eirrehs at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 12:30 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Woodworking Bench Top
I am making a woodworking bench and on the top there will be pine covered with
1" thick maple. What it the best way to glue the maple to pine. I have
already glued all of the pine 2" x 3" together. Should I glue the maple
together on top of the bench, or should the maple be glued together and then
glued to the pine? Should I run screws through the bottom when I glue the
maple on, or just hire someone to sit on it until it dries?
Full of questions
Alan W
Turlock, California
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 8:07 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking Bench Top
>I am making a woodworking bench and on the top there will be pine covered with
>1" thick maple. What it the best way to glue the maple to pine. I have
>already glued all of the pine 2" x 3" together. Should I glue the maple
>together on top of the bench, or should the maple be glued together and then
>glued to the pine? Should I run screws through the bottom when I glue the
>maple on, or just hire someone to sit on it until it dries?
Not sure I'd glue the maple to the pine. For one thing softwoods and
hardwoods are dried to different moisture contents. By gluing them up
I think you might be inviting disaster.
Alternatively wouldn't a pine top be O.K.? If you glued them together
making a 3" thick top I'd bag it and go on from there. Beats the hell
out of my solid core door work bench.
Keith Bohn
From: Gary Cavener [gcavener at teleport.com]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 9:56 AM
To: Duke of URLs; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Woodworking Bench Top
I recently saw a plan in a woodworking magazine for a benchtop where the
hardwood was glued to the plywood or MDF base using construction adhesive.
It has lots of "give" to it, without giving up. It had a 3 1/2" deep
hardwood edge/skirt that was glued and splined to the hardwood. If I
remember correctly, the hardwood pieces floated on the construction adhesive
with no mechanical fasteners. I don't know how realistic the method is, but
the author claims to have used his bench for some time with good results.
Gary
From: Robert Methelis [bobmethelis at jungle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:28 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Woodworking Estimate Helper - software
Zdnet.com, a wonderful site for all sorts of pc information and tons of
shareware, has a shareware program called Woodworker's Estimate Helper.
The program identification says:
" is a great way for craftsmen to
determine wood costs, expenses, and profit margin. Enter
current costs for different types of wood in the wood
database,
using either a board foot cost or sheet cost. In the heart
of the
program, the project database, enter the parts and
measurements for each piece of the project, such as shelves,
drawer pieces, legs, top, bottom, or back. For each part,
enter
quantity, length, width, thickness and grain direction,
type of
wood, and acceptable waste factor. Choose from one of the
eight board sizes ranging from 6x96 to 12x120 inches. The
program calculates the total amount of board feet, cost, and
number of boards needed for each of the types of wood you
elected to use. Factor in other expenses (such as sandpaper,
glue, electricity, or any other items), select a profit
margin
multiple, and the program calculates the full cost of the
item
and the amount to be billed to the customer. Woodworker's
Estimate Helper is an excellent way to reduce waste, save
time,
and ensure that you're providing accurate project costs."
The program is shareware; cost is $39.95. It can be found at:
http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000TXH
I have not used the program, but wanted to share its availability with the
professionals in our group.
Bob Methelis
Bob-in-NJ on IRC
Come visit my site
http://www.jungle.net/bob
From: Ben and Jackie Hobbs [hobbs at inteliport.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:17 PM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking publications; soliciting opinions.
We like Fine Woodworking and Workshop News.
We started taking Fine Woodworking about 1978 and we have enjoyed everyone! Workshop
News has been very helpful also.
Ben and Jackie
http://home.inteliport.net/hobbs
SDigiac503 at aol.com wrote:
> If anyone should have the inclination, I would gladly know which woodworking
> publication you like . . . and *why*.
> Thanks,
> Steve
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 3:18 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking publications; soliciting opinions.
> If anyone should have the inclination, I would gladly know which woodworking
>publication you like . . . and *why*.
>Thanks,
>Steve
First let me start off by saying there are very few woodworking
magazines I don't like. In fact Woodworker's Journal is one of the
magazines I hesitate to even thumb through on the newsstand. In my
humble opinion it has taken a severe nose dive since combining itself
with Today's Woodworker.
#1 Fine Woodworking:
I began my subscription with issue #10 or 11 and recently added the
missing issues to complete out my set. Sadly I've lost one or two and
there are a couple more to replace but that's another post. I started
with FW when I was an advanced beginner and have loved it from the
start. I can start re-reading the entire collection every year and
always learn something new.
#2 Woodwork
Probably the closest to being like Fine Woodworking and on occasion
it's even been better.
#3 American Woodworker
For my money the best magazine when it comes to offering something for
everyone without resorting to pukey ducks. It's only down fall is it
relies on powah tools too much but they ain't the Lone Ranger when it
comes to lack of hand tool content. I'm not sure what demographics
the magazines are looking at but I think there's a pent up demand for
old tools articles.
#4 Wood
I've taken more than my fair share of pot shots at Wood in the past
but they are on an up cycle at the moment. A lot like American
Woodworker but with pukey duck articles. Interesting side note, the
early issues of Wood where pretty darn good and had a monthly old
tools column by none other than St. Roy of Underhill.
#5 ShopNotes
What can I say but I'm a jig junkie. I really get a kick out of this
magazine because it forces you to look how something is put together.
#6 The Router
This is a U.K. import I get at Barnes & Noble. It's all about the
router with a side jag here and there. My current fascination has to
do with tools available in Europe that aren't available here in the
U.S.A. Beyond that it falls in the ShopNotes area for jigs and such.
I also watch for other imports like Woodturning and Good Woodworking.
#7 Woodshop News
This one is heavy on the commercial side but manages to offer enough
content to make it worth while.
#8 Popular Woodworking
Very heavy on the pukey ducks but they manage to offer an interesting
article or two almost every issue.
I'm sure I've missed one or two but that's it for now.
Keith Bohn
From: Ron Odum [rodum at worldnetla.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 4:01 PM
To: SDigiac503 at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking publications; soliciting opinions.
Me?
Oh...Popular Woodworking and Todays Woodworker...Why? Other than the fact that they can be easily perused before purchase from HD or Books a Million, I guess they pretty much cover the things associated with my level of expertise....UILWWB..... (Upper Intermediate Level Weekend Wood Butcher.)....Although Im going to start a sub to Fine Woodworking soon as I improve a bit to LALWWB....(Lower Advanced Level Weekend Wood Butcher)
Ron
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 5:47 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking publications; soliciting opinions.
>I wonder....
>Do we have TWO Keith Bohns on the list now?
SNORK!!!
>Unless I missed something (hey, it could happen), there is not even ONE URL
>in this posting from someone using Keith's name.
>Ron
MAN!!! What a tough crowd! Let me es'plain myself. If you are like
me you'll download the list thinking you'll claw through it in a few
minutes, maybe read some and respond a little until you come across
that URL that takes you off to who knows where. Six hours later there
you are exhausted and looking at a Web page of tattooed Cub Scouts.
Believe me if there's an interest there's a Web page for it. Anyhoo,
it was my desire to spare you this jaunt. See, I was performing a
public service. Still not buying it huh?
OK, one URL huh? Hmmm? Howzbout?
http://www.storm.ca/~mjt/h_m.htm
That pretty much covers all the bases and it's not limited to the
U.S.A.
The Real Keith Bohn
From: John & Marie McInnis [cottage at atikokan.lakeheadu.ca]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 9:53 AM
To: lunden at home.com; SDigiac503 at aol.com; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Woodworking publications; soliciting opinions.
I am an original subscriber to Fine Wodworking and also subscribe to
Woodworkers Journal and Popular Woodworking. I like Wooksmith.
John
From: Tips Manager [woodtips at augusthome.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 6:56 AM
Subject: Woodworking Tip #34 -- Finishing End Grain
Good morning,
We've been talking about finishing over the last few weeks, in the context
of different kinds of stains. This week, lets look at a potentially
frustrating finishing job: end grain. Anyone who has finished a project
only to find the end grain six shades darker than the face grain will
appreciate the problem. I asked the guys at Woodsmith for some ideas:
End grain naturally looks a little different than face grain. And it also
acts differently, too. The reason is simple. The end of a board is made up
of open pores that work like a bunch of straws. Whatever is put on the face
grain of the board won't be absorbed very quickly. But any liquid (like
stain or glue) applied to the open pores of the end grain will be pulled
deeply into the wood.
So end grain creates a real problem when applying stain. The open pores
suck up stain like a kid at a soda fountain. And the deeper the stain gets
pulled into the wood, the darker the color will be at the surface. The
result is that the ends are noticeably darker than the face of the piece.
Getting end grain to match the rest of the project is a matter of stopping
the stain from penetrating the end grain so deeply. There are a couple ways
to do this.
The easiest way to get a consistent color is to use a gel stain. A gel
stain is like any other stain -- it's just a little thicker. And because
the gel stain is thick, it won't penetrate very deeply into the wood. The
result is end grain and face grain with even consistent color. Note: Not
all gel stains are the same thickness. For best results on end grain,
thicker is better.
When working with a traditional liquid stain, you'll usually get a more
even color if you do a little extra sanding on the end grain -- to 600 grit
instead of 220. The reason this works is because you're burnishing the end
grain. The pore openings are polished so they're smaller and don't soak in
as much stain.
Just to confuse things a bit, it's important to note that not all "end
grain" appears on the ends of boards. It shows up on the face of boards too.
This is especially true of woods like pine, cherry and maple that have
wild, wavy grain. When the grain turns up toward the face of a board, you
end up with a small patch of end grain.
When staining, these areas of end grain can end up as dark blotches. But
you can avoid this.
One solution we often use is to apply a wood conditioner (or wash coat)
before staining. This is usually just a solvent that evaporates slowly
(although it can also be a thin finish). Because the conditioner is applied
underneath the stain, it limits and evens out the stain's penetration. You
can get wood conditioners where you buy stain.
******************
And now a word from our sponsor: The new issue of Woodsmith (No. 120) is
out. The projects include a Craftsman/Mission-style bookcase with two
drawers at the bottom. And two projects that would make nice gifts: a
folding desk clock and a holiday lantern. The lantern has scroll sawn
panels on each side. There's a technique article on making sliding half
dovetails, and there are a couple pages of table saw ripping tips.
******************
And a word from another sponsor (hey, just like football on TV): We added
some new stuff to the WoodsmithShop Online Catalog, and we've changed its
name. It's now Woodsmith Store Online. We've added a line of air nailers
and staplers. And a new line of woodworking project plans from Woodsmith
and Workbench magazines. The plans are projects from back issues of the
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Have a great weekend,
Gordon
************************
For 101 more Woodworking and Home Improvement Tips,
visit WoodNet: <http://www.augusthome.com/woodnet.htm>
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From: Scott Rohan-Smith [wdworkr at marsweb.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 10:09 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Workbench and Joe
The workbench is coming along quite nicely. I've got the top attached to
the leg assembly, the bottom shelf installed (there will be more shelves
and drawers here sometime in the future), and I wrapped the raw edges of
the bowling alley with maple to finish it off. I've asked Santa (she
didn't like it when I sat on her lap and put that silly white beard on
her) for the large front vise from Lee Valley. Then I'll add the twin
screw end vise when funds are available.
Here's where Joe comes in. As you know, me and Joe get together once in
a while, kind of a mini woodworking guild. The next visit was supposed
to be at Joe's but I've asked him if he'd be willing to come back here
because I have another project I want to do to the workbench. And this
is where you come in. I saw a jig for leveling workbench tops. I think
it was in one of the ww mags within the past 2 years. Basically it's
just a couple of rails that run the length of the top and a framework
that slides along the rails. A router is used and slides back and forth
in the framework. If you happen to remember this jig would you please
let me know where to find it. In the meantime I'll start going through
my ww mags and see what I can find.
Thanks,
Smitty aka Scott Rohan-Smith
Missoula, MT
http://people.montana.com/~wdworkr
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started
roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The
moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
From: Marty Escarcega [opencon at primenet.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 10:48 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com; wdworkr at marsweb.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
>
> Here's where Joe comes in. As you know, me and Joe get together once in a
> while, kind of a mini woodworking guild. The next visit was supposed to be
> at Joe's but I've asked him if he'd be willing to come back here because I
> have another project I want to do to the workbench. And this is where you
> come in. I saw a jig for leveling workbench tops. I think it was in one of
> the ww mags within the past 2 years. Basically it's just a couple of rails
> that run the length of the top and a framework that slides along the
> rails. A router is used and slides back and forth in the framework. If you
> happen to remember this jig would you please let me know where to find it.
> In the meantime I'll start going through my ww mags and see what I can
> find.
>
Scott, Try WOOD Magazine, Aug 95, Issue #80, page 10, uses 2
rails along the long sides of the bench, the router sled rides on
these, and the router sled itself. They used a 1" straight bit in the
router and ran it back and forth across the workbench top...
I knew I saw it some where too...that's the process I'm going to use
to flatten my "bowling alley top" eventually....
Hope this is the one you were after. I have that particular issue.
BTW. Popular Woodworking issue #97 has a nice plan for a
workbench and storage cabinet below...
Marty
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 6:34 PM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
Scott;
Your description below is correct. The guides secured to the sides of
the workbench must be level along their length and level across the
bench from one side to the other.
You make a very long and relatively narrow base for the router. If the
bench was 36" wide I would make the base 60" long with the router at 40"
from one end. This will allow you to reach the middle of the bench from
one side and then turn the base end for end to do the other side.
This system will also work well to plane birds eye maple and not have
the eyes pop out.
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 1:41 PM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
Lengthy set-up snipped for bandwidth.
More snipping of The Smitty & Joe Show for bandwidth
>I saw a jig for leveling workbench tops. I think
>it was in one of the ww mags within the past 2 years.
Fine Woodworking #77 - July/Aug. 1989 - Titled: Surfacing Stock with a
Router. Might have been in an later magazine but this has a pretty
good write up.
>Basically it's just a couple of rails that run the length of the top and a framework
>that slides along the rails.
That's pretty much it but the author used a couple of 1 3/4" X 4 1/2"
extruded aluminum tubes for the rail. Yowsah! I mean talk 'bout your
heavy duty materials.
>A router is used and slides back and forth in the framework.
A sled kinda thing with stop blocks on the underside around the bit
opening so you don't nick that aluminum tube.
>If you happen to remember this jig would you please
>let me know where to find it. In the meantime I'll start going through
>my ww mags and see what I can find.
As I said I'm not sure this is the article you wanted but it certainly
fills the bill. Personally I think you could get by just pipe
clamping a couple of nice straight S4S pieces each side of the part
being surfaced. In the FW article they call the fixture "simple" then
go on to use concentric cams to level the board, all thread to clamp
it together and of course the aforementioned aluminum tube stock.
Whatever happened to shingle shims and a hot melt glue gun?
This morning I came this close (squint your eyes real hard and you'll
see my fingers real close together) to posting a few more router
links. The first isn't quite what we talked about above but is
workable.
http://www.wood-worker.com/tips/Planer/Planer1.htm
This is really more along the lines of what we've discussed so far.
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9411HIWSCP.html
Which now brings up the question of what bit to use. I got real lucky
once and found an industrial supplier who was closing out his line of
1 1/4" dia. bits for mortising butt hinges. The carbide is only
around 1/4" high and would be perfect for this. Considerably less
passes than a 3/4" dia. bit.
A 2" dia. bit is available but will cost you dearly.
http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?912375498_53+12
I've often wondered about using bowl bits for this. With the radius
at the edge it may be easier to smooth the surface after routing.
Again though, it'll cost dearly.
http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?912375498_53+16
Keith Bohn
From: Bill Yarborough [ncs0827 at interpath.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 5:22 PM
To: wdworkr at marsweb.com
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
Scott Rohan-Smith wrote:
>
> The workbench is coming along quite nicely. I've got the top attached
the last time I suggested this, most folks thought I was crazy. But here
goes again. I produce custom butcher block countertops of several
species. I used to buy only FAS grade lumber so I could run the completed
top through this big planer. Any grade less ran the risk of tear out on a
very expensive top. Then, through some on this list and other galoots, I
tried the old scrub plane and one great jointer plane by Primus. Wow! It
worked. And it is not that bad of a job. Now I can be a little less
careful about lumber and more careful about a good flat glue up to atart
with.
I challenge you to try this on a cutting board. You night find you can do
it on a workbench as well.
From: Duane Ellis [duane at skyhigh.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 2:37 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
Scott Rohan-Smith wrote:
> I saw a jig for leveling workbench tops. I think
> it was in one of the ww mags within the past 2 years. Basically it's
> just a couple of rails that run the length of the top and a framework
> that slides along the rails. A router is used and slides back and forth
> in the framework. If you happen to remember this jig would you please
> let me know where to find it. In the meantime I'll start going through
> my ww mags and see what I can find.
>
check out:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9411HIWSCP.html
It's exactly what you describe - full plans ready to be printed
no download fee ($FREE$)
-Duane.
From: Moose and Betty [moose at northrim.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 9:16 AM
To: Scott Rohan-Smith; Joe Johns; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Workbench and Joe
Smitty, Joe, et al.,
I am somewhat familiar with the geography around where you
guys live. This leads me to believe that you guys are
afflicted with leveling problems because you have grown with
one leg shorter than the other. Hence, there will always be
between a bubble-and-a-half and two bubbles of error in the
shop layout. In my case the problem comes not from
geography but from current events geology, having lived in
earthquake country for too many years.
After moving my bench to three different shops, and
re-leveling it each time the earth shook for me, I came up
with a means to make it easier to level. I bolted a large
piece of U-channel to the bottom of each leg of the bench.
Then I ran a large bolt through the legs of the U-channel
with nuts (4) on each side of the U-channel legs. Now it is
a simple matter of laying on the floor and cranking the nuts
up or down as needed to level the bench. I welded a large
plate to the heads of the bolts to give them a bigger
footprint on the floor.
Maybe some ASCII art is in order......
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | _
| | | |
| |____| |____
| | ___|_|____|
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | |___|_|_____
| |____|_|_____|
|__ | __|_|__
|______|
Almost any good welding shop will have the U-channel and
will cut and bore it for you.
10Q,
Moose
From: Gerald Mayer [gmayer at uconect.net]
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 5:24 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Working Hickory
Hi all,
Last year I cut a big hickory tree, and out of curiosity saved a two
foot piece that I cut into boards. I started working those boards
today. The wood had significant dimensional changes and cupping during
the drying process. I cut it fresh and painted the ends before
stacking, and end checking was minimal.
I did just about everything to those boards to make them what I wanted
them to be. That includes surface planing, jointing, thickness planing,
resawing, cutting with a bandsaw, table saw, jig saw and RAS, and
routing. The wood is heavy and hard, and mostly creamy white in color,
with a few brown areas. It is uncommonly stringy, and is susceptable to
tear-out when planing at the slightest suggestion of a grain reversal.
It cuts smoothly, but it is very easy to leave burn marks from the
blade. It routed well, with no suggestion of burn marks.
It will serve to build the project, but it doesn't work nearly as well
as the red oak I'm using to build an identical project. Hickory is not
commonly available at lumber dealers in the northeast, and I can see why
it is not a wood of choice. Has anyone else worked with hickory?
Gerald
From: T. RAM. [tramsden at wkpowerlink.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 4:09 PM
To: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Working with Corian ?????
My wife brought home two large boxes of Corain Solid Surface matl. from one
of her friends. All pieces are aprox. 12" X 22" X 3/4".
What type of Adhesives work best ?
What type of blade cuts best Etc ?
What types of uses could you suggest!
Ted
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 10:44 PM
To: T. RAM.
Cc: The Oak Woodworking List
Subject: Re: Working with Corian ?????
Ted;
You are going to have fun now.
>
> My wife brought home two large boxes of Corain Solid Surface matl. from one
> of her friends. All pieces are aprox. 12" X 22" X 3/4".
>
> What type of Adhesives work best ?
DuPont make a two part epoxy color matched to the material color. The
problem is it is in units that have to be mixed in about 3 minutes and
used in about 5 mimutes. Edges have to be well prepared and very clean.
When well done a butt joint is almost invisible but a speck of dirt on
the edge will show up as a discolored spot in the seam.
I understand that the instant glues work but I have never tried them. I
do not know how the glue line shows up.
> What type of blade cuts best Etc ?
Triple chip carbide with 60 teeth on an 8" diameter. Also all carbide
router bits.
> What types of uses could you suggest!
There is no limit to the possibilities but it does not take heat well.
Do not use it for a trivet as an example. I made a dinnerplate out of a
piece as an example.
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Wendy Wilson [wwilson at sover.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 7:14 PM
To: T. RAM.
Cc: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Working with Corian ?????
Hi Ted,
There is a special adhesive made by Corian for joining pieces. You can
probably find a Corian distributor in your area to get it. Carbide saw
blades and router bits work fine, as long as they are sharp. You could
easily make cuttingboards or trivets.
From: Mike Bridges [mike at mikescustomww.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 7:59 PM
To: Wendy Wilson
Cc: T. RAM.; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Working with Corian ?????
I think cutting boards are a bad idea with corian as it will dull a
knife quickly and as far as trivets it won't stand up to heat well
either.How about turning some pens?
Mike Bridges
From: Duke of URLs [b2d at execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 5:46 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Working with Corian ?????
Apparently Corian is allowing Art Specialties to sell their product in
small quantities. I would think they would stock seam kits and could
provide additional instructions. It'll only cost you a phone call.
Art Specialties Inc.
74 N. Aurora St.
Lancaster, NY 14086
716-684-3695
Keith Bohn
From: Harvey Freeman [harvey.freeman at ns.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 1998 9:20 PM
To: Mike Bridges
Cc: Wendy Wilson; T. RAM.; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Working with Corian ?????
Mike and all;
> I think cutting boards are a bad idea with corian as it will dull a
> knife quickly
When I was doing Corian countertops cutting boards were the most
requested accessory. To the best of my knowledge there is no
significant abrasive in Corian - it is just a fancy and very expensive
plastic.
and as far as trivets it won't stand up to heat well
> either.
You are very correct on the heat. I had to repair several cook top and
electric frying pan generated heat cracks.
How about turning some pens?
Corian works like hardwood with no grain. It can be laminated up in
different colors to get very interesting effects. It can also be
laminated up with layers of colored plexiglass using the thick glue
formulated for plexiglass. I did a laminated counter top with an edge
formed of the 1/2" thick top and a 1/2" strip at the bottom, both in
white, with a strip of 1/4" red plexiglass in the middle.
I have also used 1/4" Corian for scroll sawed Xmas tree ornaments.
--
Harvey Freeman Phone 1-902-445-2832
123 School Ave. Fax 1-902-457-2653
Halifax, Nova Scotia The Home of the Precision 50 Table Saw Fence
Canada B3N 2E1 See the Fence at our Home Page
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac258/Precision_50.html
From: Dave Tinley [davet at texasinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:16 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: WOW
Yeah that's what I said.
I purchased a set of pulley's and twist belt for my table saw. Just
finished installing them, man what an improvement. Vibration cut down to
next to nothing, the blade sounds more powerful, and it cuts much, much
better.
Definitely recommended.
Dave Tinley
Waco, Texas
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 4:37 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Wrong Band or Wrong Bandsaw?
I have the Jet 14" closed stand bandsaw. While I have successfully used it
for resawing, I always find it to be:
1) very difficult to get the band from wandering in the cut
2) slightly underpowered - the 20amp breaker trips resawing hardwood
3) very hard to get, and almost impossible to keep, a cut vertical in the
stock when resawing anything wider than 6". By this I mean that if I adjust
the table to be square with the band, at the start of the cut I can split
the wood evenly into two halves. But by the end of the cut, while the blade
is still entering the wood at the half-way mark, the bottom of the blade has
wandered off the centerline, but my stock is still against the fence, or is
as close to the fence as I can press it (while the band tries to move it
away from the fence.)
Am I not "babying" this thing properly? I have the "BandSaw" book, and have
read several sections in it, and have tweeked band tension here and there,
checked tracking, checked wheel alighment, adjusted cool blocks, bearings,
blah blah, but the doggone thing just seems finnicky. I don't have time for
finnicky.
What am I doing wrong? Anybody wanna come over and see what they can do
with it?
The blades I have been using I get from my local supplier. They get the
bands on a big spool and I tell them I need 105" and they make it up for me.
I've heard reference to the timberwolf brand, but have never used one.
Does this band make that much difference? I've tried both a 3/4" 3TPI
resaw band and 1/2" 3TPI resaw band from my supplier, and have had better
success with the 1/2" band. How long should these bands last? Resawing
7/8" X 7" white Ash recently, after running through about six pieces 1 foot
long each to get all the adjustments working in harmony (I see this as an
excessive waste of wood, and time), I was only able to perfectly resaw about
3 feet before the band started wandering on me again. This was with a brand
new blade!
Would I be better off, in the long run, trading up for a different band saw
to resaw on? Which one? Or maybe a new band saw operator?!!
With my tablesaw, I view it as an American Muscle car; just get in and GO!
With my bandsaw, I view it as a quirky, tempermental European Import;
always adjusting the carbs, setting the points, tweeking the timing, hard
starting on cold days, etc, etc, etc..
Thanks for any and all advice.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Mestenhauser, Zdenek [Zdenek.Mestenhauser at mts.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 6:25 AM
To: 'tburch at cdbsoftware.com'; woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Wrong Band or Wrong Bandsaw?
Invest in a better blade. Call
http://www.timberwolf1.com/
and have them select the right one for your job. You will be pleased.
Zdenek
P.S. You must be really old to have this impression of European cars. ;-).
From: bobham [bobham at xcelco.on.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:15 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wrong Band or Wrong Bandsaw?
Hi, Todd:
Usually, when the band is trying to move the wood away from the
fence, the problem is blade "lead", where the blade wants to cut on a
track that is not parallel to the fence. The solution for that is to
find out what direction the blade wants to cut in and set the fence so
it is parallel to that direction. Usually, though, the cut through
the board is still vertical, just not on the line you want. Have you
tried a single point fence? The single point must be in line with the
teeth of the blade, not the body if you try this. You might also try
increasing the tension.
It could be that one side of the blade is cutting better than the
other side, either because the teeth are set more to that side or
because there are some dull teeth on the other side. I have had some
blades that were very bad for this right out of the box. I am sure
that I have had exactly the problem you describe, but I can't for the
life of me remember what I did to correct it. Before giving up on the
saw completely, try a premium blade and find out if it is the blade or
the saw that is causing the problem. The 105" length is standard for
14" saws with the riser block installed.
One other thing you might try if you can is increasing the blade
speed, if you have step pulleys on the saw. It could be that the
gullets are getting filled up when resawing a wide board so that the
blade is unable to take as big a bite in the lower portion of the cut,
and is getting pushed back and twisted by your feed pressure.
Reducing feed speed will also help if this is the case.
Good Luck
Bob Hamilton
From: Mike DeLong [mdelong at post.cis.smu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:51 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: RE: Wrong Band or Wrong Bandsaw?
big snip of a fellow Texican's bandsaw resawing problems....
Todd,
I'm by no means an expert on this, but I have done my share of resawing
since I lean towards small projects most of the time. Over the last
couple of days I have successfully resawn several feet of 6" curly hard
maple into strips ranging from 1/2" to 3/16" thick, without the problems
you are experiencing. I have the Delta version of your saw with the
height extender and a 3/4 hp motor, and I have never had a problem with
horsepower or vertical blade wandering. I would expect your saw to be
capable of the same performance. Since you have tuned your saw and
experimented with various tensions and blade widths, I suspect the
solution lies in the blade quality and/or feedrate.
I recommend using a high quality resaw blade and feeding the stock very,
very slowly. I primarily use Suffolk (Timberwolf) blades, and prefer
their 3/4" low tension blade for resawing. I suspect any of the higher
quality blades will provide good resawing performance, but I prefer the
low tension blade since 3/4" is my bandsaw's max. I believe the wider
the blade, the better the resaw performance. I feed the stock
exceedingly slow and let the saw and blade do their work at a somewhat
leisurely pace. This keeps the blade cool and I believe puts less wear
on the bearings and guides. I also use a finger guide just before the
blade (with a fair amount of pressure) and one just after the blade
(with less pressure) in order to keep the stock flat against the fence.
It seems best, but not always necessary, to have the fingers place the
pressure at about the midpoint of stock width(height). When everything
is set up correctly, I can actually take my hands off the stock while
cutting, and nothing moves.
I'm not making in claims of resawing 1/64" veneer (haven't tried), but I
routinely resaw 4/4 stock into 1/2 and 3/8 material that only requires a
few passes through the planer. It is a slow, dusty process, but the
results are quite nice.
I hope this helps,
Mike
------------------------------
Mike DeLong
Southern Methodist University
Director of Investment Systems
From: tburch at cdbsoftware.com
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 9:40 AM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: Re: Wrong Band or Wrong Bandsaw?
Well, I called the timberwolf folks yesterday. What a pleasant experience.
The guy who answered the phone is my kinda salesman. First question from
him: what are you looking for and why?
Boy, I haven't assigned letters to their phone number yet, but it might just
as well be 1-800-get-therapy-quick. He listened as I vented about my
problems. Sympathiszed with me. Didn't interupt me. Told me why he was
recommending what he was, gave the technical dirt whereever I wanted it,
checked with more experienced folk when he didn't know the answer to my
questions. Over all, really great service and respect. The kind of
service that if more businesses operated that way, everybody would drive
home at the end of the day with a smile on their face, and wouldn't mind the
guy next to you in traffic singing with his window down.
I ordered the 1/2" 3 teeth per inch, silicon steel induction hardened
whatever they have, for less than $15 (us). AND, (maybe because he thought
I was having an emotional breakthrough) he threw in a 3/4" band to boot,
just so I could try it out.
Filling out his demographic sheet, I guess, he asked me how I heard about
them. I told him I had seen their add in numerous rags, TMS classifieds,
Independant Sawmill and Woodlot, but that "all my friends on THEOAK" had
sent me over the edge to call them. He asked if I had a band mill, said
no, but one day I would, and made the offer for me to call them first as
they have a lot of skinny on all the mills and what I should look for. Not
a bad deal, as I'll most likely be getting my bands from them.
Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll report their performance after I get
them in.
Todd Burch, Houston, Texas.
From: Ray Berry [entrepreneur at enterprise.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:52 PM
To: Woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: WWII Saw blade
Is this WWII blade a triple chip negative kerf blade?
Ray
PS I am having trouble sending this, it keeps bouncing off the list, so
apologies if it gets through twice.
From: Mike G. [mjag at tiac.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 8:30 AM
To: tlovelace at austin360.com; gcavener at teleport.com
Cc: abacus at pdq.net; Jean Montambeault; dunwright at worldnet.att.net; woodworking
Subject: Your data conn, (was) per minute rates
Howdy Gang
OK, for a brief run down to keep things straight. First. In the TT converter
thing. That extra charge has been a joke for almost 15 years. Most Telco's
and AT&T have long switched (for reasons of economy, an elctro mechanical x
bar switch costs a fortune to maintain) to electronic switches and those
switches don't really want anything but TT (or dtmf).
As far as your local phone service is concerned (though I'm sure there are
some rural areas that may be different, though even my old service in
Montana worked this way) the connection between your house and the local
electronic switch is analog over a pair of wires and probably runs through a
number of repeaters. The analog connection is optimized for a bandwidth of
from about 300hz to 3khz /3.3khz. This connection is capable, assuming there
is nothing inducing noise into the line) of maintaining a 56kb data signal.
At the electronic switch the line starts it's digital journey. The digital
line will be a t1 connection. That is, 24 time division multiplexed
individual lines using what is called extended super frame format, running
at 64kbps with an overhead of 8kbits which gives you 56k to play with.
Through bit compression and some other niceties your modem can (or more
accurately should) also run fine on this 56k line at 56k.
Now, the kickers. The telcos will provide your home with, in a non data
specified situation, a line that meets certain parameters for VOICE
transmission in the 300hz to 3khz bandwidth. The most important being signal
to noise ratio, I won't even go into phase jitter or the half a dozen other
things since they will also contribute to the S/N ration anyway. Depending
on how close to those parameters the line and the transmission methods used
by your modem, your modem may or may not run at a full 56k or kick down to a
lower rate if there are too many retrains between your modem and the one it
connects too. Basically, if your line sounds OK to you but your 56k modem
won't run at 56k the chances are,that without ordering a conditioned
line,your SOL as far as the Telco's are concerned since the parameters are
set by tariff rates and telco just plain ain't going to provide you with a
better line. Once the connection is made, the use of the line, data or voice
is a moot point for the transmission. All that matters is that the line meet
the parameters set for that type of line as spelled out in the tariffs. The
only time what you send matters to telco is if whatever you are sending over
the line exceeds specific parameters i.e. too hot (too loud) and starts to
interfere with other transmissions. These limits are also set by tariff's.
The digital connections after the electronic switch is another matter
entirely. While pretty much free of the noise problems found in the analog
portion of your connection funny little things happen in the conversion to a
digital signal and the transmission there of. PCM'ing, PAM'ing, stealing
least significant bits from the 6th, 12th, 18th and 24th frame for those
overhead bit's I mentioned, time sharing of idle channels, etc.. under
normal conditions none of this should affect your data transmission, but,
like anything built to specifications with a plus or minus factor, if all
parameters are really close to the minus factor it won't take much to
interfere with your modem and make it run at a slower speed.
Two little bits of trivia (little known bits of useless info). Since it's
earliest days the telephone companies could provide lines completely free of
all noise but it was found, very early on, that the dead line aspects of
this disturbed the customer so certain levels of noise was actually allowed
on the lines. That amount is now tariffed by the individual states. As
someone mentioned, the huge amounts of data being transmitted over the phone
lines due to the Internet is causing Telco's problems. When you make a voice
call your connection is actually being switched constantly. The Telco's take
advantage of every little pause in a conversation to pump other
transmissions through. Of course it is all done seamlessly so you never hear
it but it do happen. Unfortunately for the telcos, phone calls that make a
data connection do not have pauses in them since there is always a constant
carrier tone from one modem to another for timing purposes so, in effect,
you have limited some of the Telco's bandwidth with a data connection on a
voice line.
There it is, a very brief and simplistic explanation of your data and voice
connections. There is a lot more too it but it took me 25 years to learn it
and I am sure that there have been more changes since I retired 4 years ago
so I'll just let things go there.
Hope it helps
Oh, and a PS. if they ever do tax on line time the monitoring and record
keeping will have to be done by the isp's since telco has no real way of
telling if a call is data or voice and probably would be less then thrilled
with having to develop the infrastructure and equipment to do so with out
some kind of substantial return to them.
From: Lori [lori.henderson at pei.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:08 PM
To: woodworking at theoak.com
Subject: zero tolerance circular saw plate
Hi, Keith and all
I went surfing, and came up with the following, for a zero tolerance
cutting base for a circular saw. I could almost still count the number
of cuts I've made with mine, so don't have to unlearn ... nothing moves
until the blade has come to a complete stop. Then I unfasten my
seatbelt.
http://www.augusthome.com/wstip14.htm
Can anyone tell me, please, how do you "plunge the saw" through the
base, as the instructions say to do? With my saw, the only way I can
have the base completely clear of the blade is to set it for an angle
cut. It seems to me it would be easier to just cut part way into a piece
of masonite, or whatever, then position the saw with the blade in the
cut, trace the base, and cut it out. Also ... would it have to be
attached with screws in the four corners as illustrated? My saw already
has two holes in it, about the middle of the shoe portion under the
motor. Would screws there, and perhaps some heavy duty double side tape
along the narrow edge, if necessary, hold it?
I am very wary of this saw. It does a great job of cutting, easily and
quickly, but I am not at all comfortable just trying something with it
to see what happens, as I would be with something less dangerous.
Keith, you are right about the masking tape. I cut some plywood with and
without it, using the sawboard in both cases. The edge with the masking
tape was clean ... the one without was very messy.
Lori
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